| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"wbarwell" |
| Date: |
11 Mar 2006 08:53:09 PM |
| Object: |
If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
Another little Strong Atheism argument polished
up a bit. If god has free will and has a good nature,
summun bonum, supreme good as the phrase went,
(Omnibenevolent is a rather new term), god is duty
bound to destroy evil by giving man the same capabilities.
Moral evil exists so god that is good and has free will,
cannot possibly exist.
I now have two very strong arguments involving the
concept of god as creator of all and dealing with
the concept of free will, if god is omniscient
and creates all, free will cannot exist and the whole
scheme of god and religion collapses utterly into
irrelevancy.
If we ignore that and argue man has free will,
god then also has free will and a good nature
and cannot exist.
Either way, the theist loses.
These gut the attempts of theology to solve the
problem of evil.
------------------------------------------
GOD, MAN AND FREE WILL.
1. For sake of argument, let us say man has free will.
God also has free will, this of course is a basic
claim for god, what could limit god's free will?
If free will exists at all it must exist for god
in the strongest sense, and for one, St. Thomas
Aquinas makes that explicit in his Summa Theologica.
1A. "Summa Theologica, The One God, Does God have free will?"
"Since then God necessarily wills His own goodness, but
other things not necessarily, as shown above (3), He
has free will with respect to what He does not necessarily
will."
2. God also has a good nature, incapable of doing evil.
Yet the fact is god is said to be incapable of doing
moral evil because of his good nature, theology does
not allow that god therefore lacks free will. This and
similar sorts of arguments limiting god's free will (God
cannot sin, therefore lacks a totally free will) have
uniformly been denied by theology as in any way limiting
god's free will.
3. So if god can have a good nature incapable of doing
moral evil and if god still has free will, man likewise
can also have a god-like free will and a god-like good
nature incapable of moral evil.
4. Since Augustine, many theologians have claimed that
man has free will and that god allows man to do evil
to perserve that free will. But we see this must be
false. Man can have free will and a good nature incapable
of doing moral evil exactly as god has free will and a good
nature, therefore the free will defense of Augustine is
simply false.
5. Since man can indeed have a godlike free will and a god like
good nature incapable of evil, we must then confront the problem
that moral evil does exist.
6. If god is morally good, he must then give man a god-like free will
and a god-like good nature, if he does not, god is then directly
responsible for all moral evil that exists and god is then morally
evil, not morally good, a contradition in basic claims, that god is
morally good. The Summum bonun, omnipotent.
7. As a way out of this predicament, one must drop either claims
god created all, or claims god is omnipotent. The idea that claims
god created man can be bandoned are impossible on several grounds,
mainly that this is not what the Bible or Quran or other sacred books
plainly state. And leave the question of where man and the Universe
came from open and unsolved if one does drop that claim.
8. That leaves omnipotence, but there is no reason to think god
creates man and yet cannot give man a god like good nature.
Even if one drops omnipotence explicitly, omnipotence isn't
needed for a creator god to creat man with a good nature.
So dropping claims of omnipotence won't help either.
CONCLUSIONS
OMNIPOTENCE AND A GOOD NATURE AND FREE WILL
1. A godlike good nature incapable of moral evil as we see cannot
contradict free will by theology's own rules.
2. There is no inherent reason that is contradictory to common sense
or reason, or logic in the sense of an married batchelor or a
square circle.
3. Nor is the concept impossible in the sense of something undesirable
from god's point of view, being good, he would want his creations
also to be good and would attempt to make them good if he could.
4. Omnipotence puts this ability to create man with free will
and a good nature well within god's abilities, there is no
logical or rationaly reason to deny man can have free will and
a good nature.
FREE WILL IS NOT VALUED BY GOD
1. The argument free will is valuable to god and accounts for man's
moral evil is false and cannot stand.
2. The Bible also shows us in Romans and elsewhere we do not
have free will, hardening of hearts so as to manipulate men
as seen in Exodus and Joshua also debunk the claim god strongly
favors free will.
2A.God hardens men's hearts. Exodus 4, 7-12, Joshua 11:20, Deuteronomy
2:30)
2B. Predestination, John 12:37-41, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:13-38
Romans 11:5-10 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Ephesians 1:1 - Ephesians 1:23
Ephesians 2:8-9
A GOD THAT HAS FREE WILL AND A GOOD NATURE CANNOT EXIST
The existance of moral evil then shows us even if we accept
that man has free will, this does not explain away evil, but
compounds the problems.
1. God has free will
2. God has a good nature
3. Because God is supremely good, god should by the duty
imposed on him by his supreme goodness have given man a
god-like free will and a god-like good nature.
4. Therefore moral evil should not exist.
5. Thus a god that has free will and is supremely good
cannot exist.
----
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
12 Mar 2006 07:36:14 AM |
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On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:53:09 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Another little Strong Atheism argument polished
up a bit. If god has free will and has a good nature,
summun bonum, supreme good as the phrase went,
(Omnibenevolent is a rather new term), god is duty
bound to destroy evil by giving man the same capabilities.
Moral evil exists so god that is good and has free will,
cannot possibly exist.
You're still failing the basics, barnyard. God does not have free will - God
gives mankind free will - God is all love and hence cannot do bad, which is 50%
of free will. No free will. Get it yet?
I now have two very strong arguments involving the
concept of god as creator of all and dealing with
the concept of free will, if god is omniscient
and creates all, free will cannot exist and the whole
scheme of god and religion collapses utterly into
irrelevancy.
Nope, you duped yourself as usual. You keep self-defining erroneous
characteristics of God and then declaring God can't exist. Your foolish
attempts at defining God in your atheist terms is utter irrelevancy at it's
best.
If we ignore that and argue man has free will,
god then also has free will and a good nature
and cannot exist.
Either way, the theist loses.
Only a most confused atheist would say that.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
12 Mar 2006 11:03:47 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:dj88121cr30vlbmo74ptpjfskhk2kmi77q@4ax.com...
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:53:09 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
Another little Strong Atheism argument polished
up a bit. If god has free will and has a good nature,
summun bonum, supreme good as the phrase went,
(Omnibenevolent is a rather new term), god is duty
bound to destroy evil by giving man the same capabilities.
Moral evil exists so god that is good and has free will,
cannot possibly exist.
You're still failing the basics, barnyard. God does not have free will -
God
gives mankind free will - God is all love and hence cannot do bad, which
is 50%
of free will. No free will. Get it yet?
I now have two very strong arguments involving the
concept of god as creator of all and dealing with
the concept of free will, if god is omniscient
and creates all, free will cannot exist and the whole
scheme of god and religion collapses utterly into
irrelevancy.
Nope, you duped yourself as usual. You keep self-defining erroneous
characteristics of God and then declaring God can't exist. Your foolish
attempts at defining God in your atheist terms is utter irrelevancy at
it's
best.
God is ALL LOVE??? Your a real idiot!
02-05-06
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it. He
is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator. By
this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would have
to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god
creator.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth? Why did he
create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be all
caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish,
greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his 'free
will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does no imply or require evil
conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to
remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially to
human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external
circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to force
man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for
his creations!)
Then why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow his wishes
and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master not the
characteristics of an all loving and caring god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars,
Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions?
Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die
of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this
horrible way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is the
work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, poisonous snakes, stinging
and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring benevolent
god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill and eat other
animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed
for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 250,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
innocent children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious
persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation
systems including flying through the air.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and
torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think
he will let us enjoy peace and happiness eternally in his Heaven after
death? And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication
with our dead parents, siblings and friends?
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has NO concern
about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no god created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
12 Mar 2006 05:39:52 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 12:03:47 -0500, "Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Nope, you duped yourself as usual. You keep self-defining erroneous
characteristics of God and then declaring God can't exist. Your foolish
attempts at defining God in your atheist terms is utter irrelevancy at
it's best.
God is ALL LOVE??? Your a real idiot!
I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it. He
is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image.
Yep.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator. By
this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would have
to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god
creator.
We God-believers don't use the word "complexity". You atheists do.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
Yep, that's what God promised us, at least those that listen to him.
If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth? Why did he
create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be all
caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish,
greedy and mean?
Sin is an atheist's way of saying he wants to go to hell. So God gives the
atheist what he wants - isn't love great.
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his 'free
will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does no imply or require evil
conduct.
Free will allows one to go either way. You choose, you live with your choice.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He wanted us to choose. You have to live with it whether you like it or not.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to force
man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for
his creations!)
No, mankind did that. Mankind wanted to be as a god, so almighty God gave us a
chance. See, it's the same as sin today - choose God or choose one's own self.
Then why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow his wishes
and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master not the
characteristics of an all loving and caring god.
Oh, noooo. No forcing. Your choice. And that's what you hate. You CAN
choose wrong, and your knees are shaking.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Amangi Machque" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
12 Mar 2006 05:52:45 PM |
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"duke" wrote
: I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
You!
--
Machque
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge. Knowledge is of the past, Wisdom is of the
future." Lumbee
"The one who tells the stories rules the world." Hopi
"Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." Shawnee
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
13 Mar 2006 06:03:02 PM |
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On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:52:45 -0500, "Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>
wrote:
"duke" wrote
: I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
You!
Why?
Me: win(hopefully)/no win. Atheist: lose/no win. No win comes into play if
there is no God almighty.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
13 Mar 2006 06:21:13 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:52:45 -0500, "Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>
wrote:
"duke" wrote
: I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
You!
Why?
Me: win(hopefully)/no win. Atheist: lose/no win. No win comes into play if
there is no God almighty.\
Good thing your "God" doesn't exist, otherwise it might not like you
hedging your bets like that.
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 05:52:23 PM |
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On 13 Mar 2006 16:21:13 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:52:45 -0500, "Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>
wrote:
"duke" wrote
: I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
You!
Why?
Me: win(hopefully)/no win. Atheist: lose/no win. No win comes into play if
there is no God almighty.\
Good thing your "God" doesn't exist, otherwise it might not like you
hedging your bets like that.
Ah, but he does exist. All evidence demands that. You lose.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 08:30:09 PM |
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duke wrote:
On 13 Mar 2006 16:21:13 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:52:45 -0500, "Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>
wrote:
"duke" wrote
: I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
You!
Why?
Me: win(hopefully)/no win. Atheist: lose/no win. No win comes into play if
there is no God almighty.\
Good thing your "God" doesn't exist, otherwise it might not like you
hedging your bets like that.
Ah, but he does exist. All evidence demands that. You lose.
And the Invisible Pink Unicorn shat "God" out of her Holy *****. All
evidence demands that. You lose.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "Torture has never been a reliable means of *
* extracting information.... One wonders why it *
* is still practiced." --Jean-Luc Picard *
****************************************************
--
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 09:58:39 AM |
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duke wrote:
On 13 Mar 2006 16:21:13 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote:
duke wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:52:45 -0500, "Amangi Machque" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net>
wrote:
"duke" wrote
: I know God is all love and you don't. Now who's the idiot?
You!
Why?
Me: win(hopefully)/no win. Atheist: lose/no win. No win comes into play if
there is no God almighty.\
Good thing your "God" doesn't exist, otherwise it might not like you
hedging your bets like that.
Ah, but he does exist. All evidence demands that. You lose.
You don't seem so sure of "God's" existence yourself, otherwise you
wouldn't be using conditional statements. You seem like someone whose
motivation for belief is purely selfish.
.
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| User: "navi-gater" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
13 Mar 2006 12:32:50 PM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in
news:dj88121cr30vlbmo74ptpjfskhk2kmi77q@4ax.com:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:53:09 -0600, wbarwell <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
Another little Strong Atheism argument polished
up a bit. If god has free will and has a good nature,
summun bonum, supreme good as the phrase went,
(Omnibenevolent is a rather new term), god is duty
bound to destroy evil by giving man the same capabilities.
Moral evil exists so god that is good and has free will,
cannot possibly exist.
You're still failing the basics, barnyard. God does not have free
will - God gives mankind free will - God is all love and hence cannot
do bad, which is 50% of free will. No free will. Get it yet?
So humans have free-will and your god don't.
Sounds like whatever made your god didn't do a good job...
gater.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
13 Mar 2006 06:04:10 PM |
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On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:32:50 GMT, "navi-gater" <gater@the-gate.net> wrote:
So humans have free-will and your god don't.
My God, the supreme creator, gives us free will.
Sounds like whatever made your god didn't do a good job...
gater.
I see a fantastic job done by God.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "navi-gater" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 12:04:38 PM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in
news:122c12pgs1gpeft0vqt8m4c1jhc03jqt1v@4ax.com:
Sounds like whatever made your god didn't do a good job...
gater.
I see a fantastic job done by God.
Well thank you.
The problem is, from my perspective I see you - and certainly no god in
existence would be proud of that.
gater.
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 02:05:42 PM |
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"navi-gater" <gater@the-gate.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9786B7E4AE4A3thegatenet@62.253.170.163...
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in
news:122c12pgs1gpeft0vqt8m4c1jhc03jqt1v@4ax.com:
Sounds like whatever made your god didn't do a good job...
gater.
I see a fantastic job done by God.
Well thank you.
The problem is, from my perspective I see you - and certainly no god in
existence would be proud of that.
gater.
You ascribe a human emotion, to a being you dont believe in, to cast an
insult. Youre a genius.
Rob
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 02:43:42 PM |
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"Rob Duncan" <robtakethisoutduncan@gobigwest.com> wrote in message
news:wmFRf.82$X_2.172061@news.sisna.com...
snip
You ascribe a human emotion, to a being you dont believe in, to cast an
insult. Youre a genius.
Oh, the irony.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Atheist ***** Extraordinaire
#1557
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| User: "navi-gater" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 05:30:23 PM |
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"Rob Duncan" <robtakethisoutduncan@gobigwest.com> wrote in news:wmFRf.82$X_
2.172061@news.sisna.com:
The problem is, from my perspective I see you - and certainly no god in
existence would be proud of that.
gater.
You ascribe a human emotion, to a being you dont believe in, to cast an
insult. Youre a genius.
Rob
Thanks - I suspect I am, must do one of those IQ tests.
BTW I don't believe in Superman either but I know he has a thing for Lois
Lane. It's easy to asribe emotions to things that don't exist.
gater.
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 05:35:23 PM |
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"navi-gater" <gater@the-gate.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9786EF20125C8thegatenet@62.253.170.163...
"Rob Duncan" <robtakethisoutduncan@gobigwest.com> wrote in
news:wmFRf.82$X_
2.172061@news.sisna.com:
The problem is, from my perspective I see you - and certainly no god in
existence would be proud of that.
gater.
You ascribe a human emotion, to a being you dont believe in, to cast an
insult. Youre a genius.
Rob
Thanks - I suspect I am, must do one of those IQ tests.
I would avoid disapointing yourself...
BTW I don't believe in Superman either but I know he has a thing for Lois
Lane. It's easy to asribe emotions to things that don't exist.
gater.
For people such as yourself Im sure it even seems logical as well...
Rob
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 05:53:12 PM |
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On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 18:04:38 GMT, "navi-gater" <gater@the-gate.net> wrote:
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in
news:122c12pgs1gpeft0vqt8m4c1jhc03jqt1v@4ax.com:
Sounds like whatever made your god didn't do a good job...
gater.
I see a fantastic job done by God.
Well thank you.
The problem is, from my perspective I see you - and certainly no god in
existence would be proud of that.
gater.
Yeah, but that's from your perspective as a loser atheist.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 04:16:02 PM |
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duke wrote:
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 18:32:50 GMT, "navi-gater" <gater@the-gate.net> wrote:
So humans have free-will and your god don't.
My God, the supreme creator, gives us free will.
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God created the Universe and all in it.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all in
the Universe and he knows the future of the Universe
and its contents.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, God
will know that.
E. As he knows that the Universe in its present state will
have a John Smith, god may then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith.
F. If yes, Smith will be evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god.
G. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
H. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
I. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
***********************************************************
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
14 Mar 2006 05:39:20 PM |
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"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
How? Youre statements in no way support your conclusion. Could you please
share the string of logic that dictates prior knowladge somehow precludes
free will?
Rob
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 11:50:11 AM |
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Rob Duncan wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
How? Youre statements in no way support your conclusion. Could you
please share the string of logic that dictates prior knowladge somehow
precludes free will?
It does if you can reason logically and rationally.
Its all here. Now, think. Do I have to act this
out with muppets for you for you to get it?
I will rewrite D., E. and F. to make it a little
more explicit for you.
And I shall add an explicit conclusions G., and L.
to spell it out for you.
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God is said by theologians to have created the Universe
and all in that Universe.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all that is in
the Universe and he knows the future state of the Universe
and the state of all its contents as he contemplates creating
the Universe.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it
because he is omniscient, all knowing.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, in
the distant future, God will know whether John Smith is
to be good or evil.
E. God knows that the Universe created in its present state will
have a John Smith, god must then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith or if
god will create the Universe in another manner that will have
a good Smith who is saved in preference to a Smith who is evil
and damned.
F. Thus, Smith will be good or evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god who must make
a choice faced with the knowledge of the future and implement
his choice of what the future smith will be, good or evil.
G. Since this all happens as god contemplates creation of the
Universe, Smith has no say in whether he is to be good or evil
as he does not exist yet and cannot influence god's choice.
H. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
I. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
J. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
K. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
L. This is precisely because knowing all and faced with
what will be, god at all times must make a personal choice
to actually create what he is contemplating creating with
full knowldege and acceptance of what his creation will
entail, or he must change his creation to conform to his
wishes for the type of world he wants.
********************************************************
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 02:09:41 PM |
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So, how, exactly, does somebody who knows what youre going to do, preempt
your free will in doing it? Thats what youve yet to explain.
Just because I knew you were going to repost your illogical rant, doesnt
mean I removed from you your free will in doing so. If however, that is
your claim, that my knowledge of your next action removed your free will in
doing so... could you explain the mechanism by which it occurs? What action
is it thats occuring between my knowledge of future events... and the
elimination of free will?
Im sure youre not going so far as to blame magic, or something even more
absurd are you? What and how, does someones knowledge of your future
actions preclude free will? Its such a simple question, why cant you answer
it?
I know my neighbor is going to brush his teeth after waking up tomorrow
morning. How has that removed his free will when he goes to brush his
teeth? Please explain. Im finding your assertions both entertaining and
uh, well a little off the wall, to be honest.
Rob
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:121gki34e0kvub6@corp.supernews.com...
Rob Duncan wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
How? Youre statements in no way support your conclusion. Could you
please share the string of logic that dictates prior knowladge somehow
precludes free will?
It does if you can reason logically and rationally.
Its all here. Now, think. Do I have to act this
out with muppets for you for you to get it?
I will rewrite D., E. and F. to make it a little
more explicit for you.
And I shall add an explicit conclusions G., and L.
to spell it out for you.
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God is said by theologians to have created the Universe
and all in that Universe.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all that is in
the Universe and he knows the future state of the Universe
and the state of all its contents as he contemplates creating
the Universe.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it
because he is omniscient, all knowing.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, in
the distant future, God will know whether John Smith is
to be good or evil.
E. God knows that the Universe created in its present state will
have a John Smith, god must then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith or if
god will create the Universe in another manner that will have
a good Smith who is saved in preference to a Smith who is evil
and damned.
F. Thus, Smith will be good or evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god who must make
a choice faced with the knowledge of the future and implement
his choice of what the future smith will be, good or evil.
G. Since this all happens as god contemplates creation of the
Universe, Smith has no say in whether he is to be good or evil
as he does not exist yet and cannot influence god's choice.
H. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
I. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
J. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
K. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
L. This is precisely because knowing all and faced with
what will be, god at all times must make a personal choice
to actually create what he is contemplating creating with
full knowldege and acceptance of what his creation will
entail, or he must change his creation to conform to his
wishes for the type of world he wants.
********************************************************
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 02:49:12 PM |
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Rob Duncan wrote:
So, how, exactly, does somebody who knows what youre going to do, preempt
your free will in doing it? Thats what youve yet to explain.
Just because I knew you were going to repost your illogical rant, doesnt
mean I removed from you your free will in doing so. If however, that is
your claim, that my knowledge of your next action removed your free will in
doing so... could you explain the mechanism by which it occurs? What action
is it thats occuring between my knowledge of future events... and the
elimination of free will?
Im sure youre not going so far as to blame magic, or something even more
absurd are you? What and how, does someones knowledge of your future
actions preclude free will? Its such a simple question, why cant you answer
it?
It's not just *somebody* knowing your actions, Rob. It's a supposedly
all-knowing supernatural being who can create/not create you. If such
a being knows what you're going to do and creates you anyway, then by
definition you have no choice about what you're going to do.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 03:08:56 PM |
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"skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:1142455752.847481.239520@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Rob Duncan wrote:
So, how, exactly, does somebody who knows what youre going to do, preempt
your free will in doing it? Thats what youve yet to explain.
Just because I knew you were going to repost your illogical rant, doesnt
mean I removed from you your free will in doing so. If however, that is
your claim, that my knowledge of your next action removed your free will
in
doing so... could you explain the mechanism by which it occurs? What
action
is it thats occuring between my knowledge of future events... and the
elimination of free will?
Im sure youre not going so far as to blame magic, or something even more
absurd are you? What and how, does someones knowledge of your future
actions preclude free will? Its such a simple question, why cant you
answer
it?
It's not just *somebody* knowing your actions, Rob. It's a supposedly
all-knowing supernatural being who can create/not create you. If such
a being knows what you're going to do and creates you anyway, then by
definition you have no choice about what you're going to do.
Brenda Nelson,
You guys seem to like to repeat the same thing, over and over, without
offering an explanation as to how free will is eliminated. I kick a ball
slowly to the goalkeeper, I know for a fact he will bend over and pick up
the ball. How have I eliminated his free will in bending over and picking
up the ball?
Please, DEAR G-D, explain your logic, for heavens sake. How does someones
knowledge of a future action of yours eliminate your free will in performing
such action? What is the mechanism? How is free will eliminated? Can you
at least ATTEMPT to answer such a simple, basic, neccessary question.
Jeesh!
This, and this is no accusation or insult, is starting to feel like Im
conversing with, uh, well, perhaps some who are having mental difficulties
explaining logically their beliefs. If its impossible for you to explain
such a simple, simple thing, shouldnt that give you a clue you might be "off
base," just a tad?
Rob
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| User: "navi-gater" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 05:22:52 PM |
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"Rob Duncan" <robtakethisoutduncan@gobigwest.com> wrote in
news:Mn%Rf.31$%l6.65601@news.sisna.com:
This, and this is no accusation or insult, is starting to feel like Im
conversing with, uh, well, perhaps some who are having mental
difficulties explaining logically their beliefs. If its impossible
for you to explain such a simple, simple thing, shouldnt that give you
a clue you might be "off base," just a tad?
Rob
Forgive me for jumping in "Rob", but I think you're either
a) Painfully obtuse
b) deliberately antagonistic
If you can't see the argument, perhaps you are blinded by *your* beliefs.
BTW Atheists don't have beliefs.
Sorry 'bout that.
gater.
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 05:32:46 PM |
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"navi-gater" <gater@the-gate.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9787EDFDEBEA5thegatenet@80.5.182.99...
"Rob Duncan" <robtakethisoutduncan@gobigwest.com> wrote in
news:Mn%Rf.31$%l6.65601@news.sisna.com:
This, and this is no accusation or insult, is starting to feel like Im
conversing with, uh, well, perhaps some who are having mental
difficulties explaining logically their beliefs. If its impossible
for you to explain such a simple, simple thing, shouldnt that give you
a clue you might be "off base," just a tad?
Rob
Forgive me for jumping in "Rob", but I think you're either
a) Painfully obtuse
Nope. Simply, and unapologetically, curious as to the mechanism by which
our poster feels our free will is magically eliminated by someone truthfully
knowing our future action. Its yet to be explained... and I note, you
endevour no attempt as well...
b) deliberately antagonistic
Nope. Refer to above...
If you can't see the argument, perhaps you are blinded by *your* beliefs.
What argument? His argument is this... That a god cant exist, because we
have free will. Is that ultimately his point, or not? Yes, or no? Can you
at least answer that question?
BTW Atheists don't have beliefs.
Sorry 'bout that.
gater.
Sorry about what?
Rob
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| User: "navi-gater" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
16 Mar 2006 05:19:18 AM |
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"Rob Duncan" <robtakethisoutduncan@gobigwest.com> wrote in
news:Eu1Sf.56$dQ5.149556@news.sisna.com:
This, and this is no accusation or insult, is starting to feel like
Im conversing with, uh, well, perhaps some who are having mental
difficulties explaining logically their beliefs. If its impossible
for you to explain such a simple, simple thing, shouldnt that give
you a clue you might be "off base," just a tad?
Rob
Forgive me for jumping in "Rob", but I think you're either
a) Painfully obtuse
Nope. Simply, and unapologetically, curious as to the mechanism by
which our poster feels our free will is magically eliminated by
someone truthfully knowing our future action. Its yet to be
explained... and I note, you endevour no attempt as well...
Well I thought it was rather obvious but I guess there's always one
theist around.
Let me explain by way of analogy.
Let's say I write a computer program - I as the programmer, know exactly
what that program will do when it runs (its future actions). I can
predict it exactly. Once the program is running, I can hardly then claim
fault in the program if it does something I didn't want it to do, after
all I designed, coded and executed it and it was easily in my grasp to
predict its actions. Does this program have "free will" - of course not
I created it to my requirements. Can I predict the outcome of the
program 100% - yes.
Now replace program with human and assume the programmer is the god from
the bible(s).
Now it is possible for a programmer to simply screw up and leave an
unintended feature or two in the program - this is a programming error.
However, theists tell us their bible-god is perfect and no such error is
possible.
So you have the innerant/perfect bible god punishing his creations for
the things he designed & created them to do and even predicted they
would do.
So this bible god is either
1) Masochistic - it enjoys punishing people for its own mistakes
2) Not able to predict or control the behavior of the things it created
(not all powerful)
3) Makes errors
Well, either way, a perfect inerrant bible-god cannot exist since it has
one of the faults described above.
b) deliberately antagonistic
Nope. Refer to above...
Actually I think you are.
If you can't see the argument, perhaps you are blinded by *your*
beliefs.
What argument? His argument is this... That a god cant exist,
because we have free will. Is that ultimately his point, or not?
Yes, or no? Can you at least answer that question?
I can't answer that since I didn't write it.
Personally, I don't see that the question you pose makes any difference
whatsoever.
Free will or not is a rather pointless question since at our level since
the appearance is that we have free will and if it is an illusion then
it is a very good one.
I suspect the OP is simply trying to point out the illogic of a bible-
god who knows all still punishing the things it made, when it knew full
well they'd do those things in the first place.
Personally, I think trying to convince theists of something like that is
pointless - after all, theists are predisposed to ignore logic and
simply have faith in things for which there is no evidence.
BTW Atheists don't have beliefs.
Sorry 'bout that.
gater.
Sorry about what?
Exactly.
gater.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
16 Mar 2006 11:11:11 PM |
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Rob Duncan wrote:
Forgive me for jumping in "Rob", but I think you're either
a) Painfully obtuse
Willfully obtuse.
Nope. Simply, and unapologetically, curious as to the mechanism by which
our poster feels our free will is magically eliminated by someone
truthfully
knowing our future action. Its yet to be explained... and I note, you
endevour no attempt as well...
I keep explaining it but you aren't up to understanding it,
simple though it is.
If god creates all, as he contemplates creation he
(being omniscient by definition) wil see the future.
He must then consider if the creation he is considering
will be followed through with or not.
If a man named John Smith 13 billion years hence
is evil, god must decide to go ahead an create a universe
with an evil Smith or he must chose to not create the Universe
this way and choose another Universe to create without and
evil Smith.
Only god decides these things and he must decide everything.
Free will is simply impossible in the strongest manner.
Now, most simple mindeed people can understand this.
You seem to put forth no effort to do so.
You are wilfully ignorant, and that is not a completement.
faced with facts you do not like, your brain shuts down.
These sort or bad cases of brain lock have been scientificially
tested and proven to exist. If you have brain lock and
refuse to reconize it and deal with it, we must simply
not you have a brain lock problem and are thus no more
intelligent or intellectually capable than a hamster.
You seem to have brain lock. Al I can do is put
the facts simply and straight foward, watch your
brain seize up and note you are simply not capable
of rational though and note it publically.
Then we can all mark you down as not worth effort,
you cannot ever be right about anything, nor be
reasoned with.
Its like trying to discuss French literature with a pig.
--------------------
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/24/science/24find.h
tml?_r=2
Findings
A Shocker: Partisan Thought Is Unconscious
E-Mail This
Printer-Friendly
Reprints
Save Article
By BENEDICT CAREY
Published: January 24, 2006
Liberals and conservatives can become equally
bug-eyed and irrational when talking politics,
especially when they are on the defensive.
Using M.R.I. scanners, neuroscientists have now
tracked what happens in the politically partisan
brain when it tries to digest damning facts about
favored candidates or criticisms of them. The
process is almost entirely emotional and
unconscious, the researchers report, and there are
flares of activity in the brain's pleasure centers
when unwelcome information is being rejected.
"Everything we know about cognition suggests that,
when faced with a contradiction, we use the
rational regions of our brain to think about it,
but that was not the case here," said Dr. Drew
Westen, a psychologist at Emory and lead author of
the study, to be presented Saturday at meetings of
the Society for Personality and Social Psychology
in Palm Springs, Calif.
The results are the latest from brain imaging
studies that provide a neural explanation for
internal states, like infatuation or ambivalence,
and a graphic trace of the brain's activity.
In 2004, the researchers recruited 30 adult men
who described themselves as committed Republicans
or Democrats. The men, half of them supporters of
President Bush and the other half backers of
Senator John Kerry, earned $50 to sit in an M.R.I.
machine and consider several statements in quick
succession.
The first was a quote attributed to one of the two
candidates: either a remark by Mr. Bush in support
of Kenneth L. Lay, the former Enron chief, before
he was indicted, or a statement by Mr. Kerry that
Social Security should be overhauled. Moments
later, the participants read a remark that showed
the candidate reversing his position. The quotes
were doctored for maximum effect but presented as
factual.
The Republicans in the study judged Mr. Kerry as
harshly as the Democrats judged Mr. Bush. But each
group let its own candidate off the hook.
After the participants read the contradictory
comment, the researchers measured increased
activity in several areas of the brain. They
included a region involved in regulating negative
emotions and another called the cingulate, which
activates when the brain makes judgments about
forgiveness, among other things. Also, a spike
appeared in several areas known to be active when
people feel relieved or rewarded. The "cold
reasoning" regions of the cortex were relatively
quiet.
Researchers have long known that political
decisions are strongly influenced by unconscious
emotional reactions, a fact routinely exploited by
campaign consultants and advertisers. But the new
research suggests that for partisans, political
thinking is often predominantly emotional.
It is possible to override these biases, Dr.
Westen said, "but you have to engage in ruthless
self reflection, to say, 'All right, I know what I
want to believe, but I have to be honest.' "
He added, "It speaks to the character of the
discourse that this quality is rarely talked about
in politics."
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 02:15:36 PM |
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Rob Duncan wrote:
So, how, exactly, does somebody who knows what youre going to do, preempt
your free will in doing it? Thats what youve yet to explain.
See A.
See F.
Just because I knew you were going to repost your illogical rant, doesnt
mean I removed from you your free will in doing so. If however, that is
your claim, that my knowledge of your next action removed your free will in
doing so... could you explain the mechanism by which it occurs? What action
is it thats occuring between my knowledge of future events... and the
elimination of free will?
Im sure youre not going so far as to blame magic, or something even more
absurd are you? What and how, does someones knowledge of your future
actions preclude free will? Its such a simple question, why cant you answer
it?
I know my neighbor is going to brush his teeth after waking up tomorrow
morning. How has that removed his free will when he goes to brush his
teeth? Please explain. Im finding your assertions both entertaining and
uh, well a little off the wall, to be honest.
Rob
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:121gki34e0kvub6@corp.supernews.com...
Rob Duncan wrote:
"wbarwell" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote
J. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
How? Youre statements in no way support your conclusion. Could you
please share the string of logic that dictates prior knowladge somehow
precludes free will?
It does if you can reason logically and rationally.
Its all here. Now, think. Do I have to act this
out with muppets for you for you to get it?
I will rewrite D., E. and F. to make it a little
more explicit for you.
And I shall add an explicit conclusions G., and L.
to spell it out for you.
*****************************************************
OMNISCIENCE VERSUS CREATORHOOD OF GOD
God is defined as creator of all in most religions.
And god is claimed to be omniscient, all knowing.
A. God is said by theologians to have created the Universe
and all in that Universe.
B. God is omniscient, all knowing, he knows all that is in
the Universe and he knows the future state of the Universe
and the state of all its contents as he contemplates creating
the Universe.
C. If god creates a Universe, he will know that in 13 billion
years this Universe will have a man named John Smith in it
because he is omniscient, all knowing.
D. If John Smith is good and saved, or evil and damned, in
the distant future, God will know whether John Smith is
to be good or evil.
E. God knows that the Universe created in its present state will
have a John Smith, god must then contemplate the future state
of Smith and decide if he will tolerate an evil Smith or if
god will create the Universe in another manner that will have
a good Smith who is saved in preference to a Smith who is evil
and damned.
F. Thus, Smith will be good or evil only because of a specific
personal and will choice made solely by god who must make
a choice faced with the knowledge of the future and implement
his choice of what the future smith will be, good or evil.
G. Since this all happens as god contemplates creation of the
Universe, Smith has no say in whether he is to be good or evil
as he does not exist yet and cannot influence god's choice.
H. If Smith is evil, then evil exists solely because of a choice
made by god. In fact all moral evil done by creations of god
will be evil and do evil only because of personal and willful
creations of god allowing evil acts to be done, by direct
decision of god.
I. If evil exists in a world with an omniscient creator god,
it is solely and only because god allows evil.
J. If evil exists solely because of personal choices of god,
god then is not as defined, omnibenevolent.
K. Man and any other sentient being in such a Universe cannot
have any free will, not even in principle. A Universe with
a god that creates all and knows all precludes free will for
all beings god creates in the strongest possible manner.
L. This is precisely because knowing all and faced with
what will be, god at all times must make a personal choice
to actually create what he is contemplating creating with
full knowldege and acceptance of what his creation will
entail, or he must change his creation to conform to his
wishes for the type of world he wants.
********************************************************
--
So you want to fight the Master!
First you must fight my brother Chang!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Rob Duncan" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 02:56:13 PM |
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<j.m.1491@gmx.net> wrote in message news:47ravbFh3qhvU1@individual.net...
Rob Duncan wrote:
So, how, exactly, does somebody who knows what youre going to do, preempt
your free will in doing it? Thats what youve yet to explain.
See A.
See F.
F is the crux of the point. He feels that somehow, perhaps through
magic...? that knowledge of future choice eliminates free will... without
offering an explanation for the mechanism that removes free will.
HOW does knowledge of future events preclude free will? I understand you
like to say the same thing over and over again, without offering an
explanation... Is there a reason for that? What exactly eliminates your
free will when someone knows a future action of yours?
Its interesting youre unable to explain such a simple thing. Whats the
nature of the mechanism? Its such a simple question. Youde think with all
the thought, strain, and obvious angst put into this position by you, that
youde at least come up with a reason why knowledge of future events
precludes free will.
I know that the next bum I give money to is going to buy alcohol with it...
for a fact. How has my knowledge eliminated his free will in buying a 40
ouncer? Its such a simple question, yet youre incapable of answering it.
Doesnt that tell you something, like, perhaps, youre on the wrong track?
Rob
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: If god has free will and creates all, god cannot exist. |
15 Mar 2006 03:23:51 PM |
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Rob Duncan wrote:
<j.m.1491@gmx.net> wrote in message news:47ravbFh3qhvU1@individual.net...
Rob Duncan wrote:
So, how, exactly, does somebody who knows what youre going to do, preempt
your free will in doing it? Thats what youve yet to explain.
See A.
See F.
F is the crux of the point. He feels that somehow, perhaps through
magic...? that knowledge of future choice eliminates free will... without
offering an explanation for the mechanism that removes free will.
The one additional assumption could be causality.
The way I see wbarwells argument is this:
A. The god being creates the world (Creator), i.e. the god being sets
the initial conditions.
B. Causality predetermines everything that will follow.
C. The being wbarwell calls John does evil or good.
D. The God being knows what will happen (omniscience).
Because of A and B God determined what John will do by setting the
initial condition.
Because of D god knew what the choice will be.
If god would not be omniscient and there would be no causality, god
could set initial conditions and leave the choice up to John, i.e. if
the initial conditions determine what will happen and god knows what
will happen, John had no choice but the one god 'coded' in the creation.
If there is causality and god does not know what will happen, John has
no choice but god didn't make a choice either.
If there is no causality and god does not know what will happen, it will
be Johns choice.
Most religions assume causality and an omniscient god.
Or perhaps in other words: For John to have free will, the initial
conditions at creation are not allowed to determine what John will do.
But then one would need to explain when god will know what will happen,
and it it is not in advance, it will not be omniscient.
Something like this...
j.m.
#1491
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