If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?


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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Truth Hunter"
Date: 09 May 2005 07:44:49 AM
Object: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?
If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?
Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature and
in favor with God and men."
This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time: the
attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent, and
that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and perceptions about
him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.
The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God, is a
little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/=ADweb/faq/faq-tr.html
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)
.

User: "• R. L. Measures"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 05:02:22 AM
In article <rFSfe.119$OU1.112@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
jwa1968@earthlink.net wrote:

• R. L. Measures wrote:

In article <1115644495.649568.318930@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote:


You DO realize that what you said doesn't make any sense and doesn't
really answer the question, right?



• - "If you understand it, it is not God."
-- from Saint Augustine¹s, Sermon 117.

I don't understand neo-cons - are they God?

• Hell no, but they for damn sure know how to use "God" to dupe voters.
cheerz, James
--
Rich. 805.386.3734
.

User: "• R. L. Measures"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 09 May 2005 06:25:12 PM
In article <1115642689.590017.184740@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, "Truth
Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote:

If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?



Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature and
in favor with God and men."


This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time: the
attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent, and
that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and perceptions about
him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God, is a
little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.

• Sure but:
"In matters of faith never trust your own judgment, but always humbly
submit to the decisions of the Holy Church."
-- Fr. Joseph De Harbe, S.J. - page 77, "A Full Catechism of the
Catholic Religion"




http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/=ADweb/faq/faq-tr.html


Bumper Sticker

DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath ! (Author unknown)

--
Rich. 805.386.3734
.

User: "AnonMoos"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 09 May 2005 10:25:46 AM
Not as nonsensical as you trying to pretend to be a Jew, Abu Truthhunter!
%!
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215 372 L -30 52 L -430 0 L l 32 t 223 608 Z q 60 r 501 -163 Z Q q -60 r -339
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-30 r -123 560 m W Q q -90 r -403 291 m W Q 56 588 m(PATER)O 445 588 m(FILIUS)
O 258 475 m(DEUS)O 22 t 252 268 m(SPIRITUS)O 250 247 m(SANCTUS)O showpage% PS
.

User: "Craig Chilton"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 09 May 2005 09:12:29 AM
On 9 May 2005 05:44:49 -0700,
"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote:

If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?

Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and
stature and>in favor with God and men."

This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time:
the attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent,
and that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and percep-
tions about him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.

The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.
How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
.
User: "torch"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 09 May 2005 01:02:01 PM
"Craig Chilton" <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:81ru715ff6b2vrgc24epbndts1gqflkg0i@4ax.com...

On 9 May 2005 05:44:49 -0700,
"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote:

If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?

Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and
stature and>in favor with God and men."

This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time:
the attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent,
and that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and percep-
tions about him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.


The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.

So, by your own logic, this frame of reference must also have been beyond
the comprehension of the humans that wrote the bible - so the only
conclusion we can make is that their inconsistent impressions are worthless


How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?

A scientist from 60 years ago could easily understand the principles of
modern electronics - thats because those principles are based upon an
accumulation of consistent, logical, evidence based knowledge - something
that cannot be said of the bible.


-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>

.
User: "Craig Chilton"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 09 May 2005 01:58:14 PM
On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:02:01 +0100,
"torch" wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:

"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote:

If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?

Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and
stature and>in favor with God and men."

This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time:
the attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent,
and that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and percep-
tions about him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.

The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.

So, by your own logic, this frame of reference must also have
been beyond the comprehension of the humans that wrote the Bible --
so the only conclusion we can make is that their inconsistent
impressions are worthless.

Worthless, no, since they knew Jesus, and thus were able to
provide very accurate accounts. Opinionated in some cases, yes...
which led to the contradictions that exist in the Bible. Of all the
Bible's players. only God and Jesus were perfect.

How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?

A scientist from 60 years ago could easily understand the
principles of modern electronics - thats because those principles
are based upon an accumulation of consistent, logical, evidence
based knowledge - something that cannot be said of the Bible.

Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
.
User: "The_Sage"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 07:54:34 PM

Reply to article by: Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
Date written: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:58:14 GMT
MsgID:<h8cv71pofc6cotj24rj8118gbr8h5qilko@4ax.com>

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.

The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.

So, by your own logic, this frame of reference must also have
been beyond the comprehension of the humans that wrote the Bible --
so the only conclusion we can make is that their inconsistent
impressions are worthless.

Worthless, no, since they knew Jesus, and thus were able to
provide very accurate accounts. Opinionated in some cases, yes...
which led to the contradictions that exist in the Bible. Of all the
Bible's players. only God and Jesus were perfect.

If contradictions exist in the Bible, and there is no source of confirmation of
*biblical* events outside of the Bible, there is no way to know if anything in
the Bible is accurate. You can only make believe it is accurate -- but only
where there are no blatent contradictions or false prophecies or inaccurate
science or false history. And you can only make believe that God and Jesus were
perfect since you have no accurate evidence that they are.
The Sage
=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage
"Toward no crimes have men shown themselves so cold-bloodedly
cruel as in punishing differences in belief"
-- James Russell Lowell
=============================================================
.

User: "Masked Avenger"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 08:57:10 AM
Craig Chilton wrote:


If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?

Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and
stature and>in favor with God and men."

This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time:
the attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent,
and that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and percep-
tions about him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.



The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.



So, by your own logic, this frame of reference must also have
been beyond the comprehension of the humans that wrote the Bible --
so the only conclusion we can make is that their inconsistent
impressions are worthless.



Worthless, no, since they knew Jesus, and thus were able to
provide very accurate accounts. Opinionated in some cases, yes...
which led to the contradictions that exist in the Bible. Of all the
Bible's players. only God and Jesus were perfect.

What ? none of the authors of the NT 'knew' Jesus ........ the first NT
scriptures weren't written till well after his supposed death ...
there's no 'eyewitness' accounts of anything to do with Jesus .......
it's all hearsay .....



How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?



A scientist from 60 years ago could easily understand the
principles of modern electronics - thats because those principles
are based upon an accumulation of consistent, logical, evidence
based knowledge - something that cannot be said of the Bible.



Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.

Sorry Craig ...... but fulfilled prophecies ? You're kidding, right ?
--
Masked Avenger
aa#2224
EAC Chief Technician in charge of remotely rigging Fundie 'Spell
Checkers' so they all look like hick home schooled yokels
Does Schroedinger's cat have 18 half lives ?
.
User: "Craig Chilton"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 12 May 2005 12:39:12 AM
On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:57:10 +1000,
Masked Avenger <cootey_59@yahoo.com> wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:

If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?

Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and
stature and>in favor with God and men."

This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time:
the attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent,
and that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and percep-
tions about him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.

The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.

So, by your own logic, this frame of reference must also have
been beyond the comprehension of the humans that wrote the Bible --
so the only conclusion we can make is that their inconsistent
impressions are worthless.

Worthless, no, since they knew Jesus, and thus were able to
provide very accurate accounts. Opinionated in some cases, yes...
which led to the contradictions that exist in the Bible. Of all the
Bible's players. only God and Jesus were perfect.

What ? none of the authors of the NT 'knew' Jesus ........ the
first NT scriptures weren't written till well after his supposed death ...
there's no 'eyewitness' accounts of anything to do with Jesus .......
it's all hearsay .....

You're KIDDING, right? Ever hear of Paul? he was one of Jesus'
12 disciples... and he wrote *several* of the N.T. books. Not to
mention also Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- named after their
authors -- who ALSO were Jesus' disciples, and accompanied Him
throughout His ministry.
Yes, the books were written after Jesus' death and resurrection.
But are you saying that no one who knew JFK could have (and did)
write books about *him* after he was assassinated? Do you think that
everyone who knows a person drops dead on the spot when that
person that they knew dies? And therefore couldn't be around
afterward to write books about him?

How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?

A scientist from 60 years ago could easily understand the
principles of modern electronics - that's because those principles
are based upon an accumulation of consistent, logical, evidence
based knowledge - something that cannot be said of the Bible.

Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.

Sorry Craig ...... but fulfilled prophecies ? You're kidding, right ?

Nope. There are hundreds of them. And not a single miss.
-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
.
User: "Dave Lister"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 12 May 2005 01:12:27 AM
Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote in
news:6gq581tabdeqmnpb531ka2snoebnlddph1@4ax.com:

What ? none of the authors of the NT 'knew' Jesus ........ the
first NT scriptures weren't written till well after his supposed
death ... there's no 'eyewitness' accounts of anything to do with
Jesus ....... it's all hearsay .....


You're KIDDING, right? Ever hear of Paul? he was one of Jesus'
12 disciples... and he wrote *several* of the N.T. books. Not to
mention also Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- named after their
authors -- who ALSO were Jesus' disciples, and accompanied Him
throughout His ministry.

You are so ignorant it's funny. For one, Saul/Paul wasn't on the scene
until WAY after Jesus was supposedly killed. The people who wrote the
gospels did so wuite some time after his death,

Sorry Craig ...... but fulfilled prophecies ? You're kidding,
right ?


Nope. There are hundreds of them. And not a single miss.

Not one. And the people who own the prophecies agree. He wasn't the Jewish
messiah.
--
DWA should be a felony.
.

User: "wcb"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 12 May 2005 10:58:47 AM
Craig Chilton wrote:

On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:57:10 +1000,
Masked Avenger <cootey_59@yahoo.com> wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:


...

You're KIDDING, right? Ever hear of Paul? he was one of Jesus'
12 disciples... and he wrote *several* of the N.T. books. Not to
mention also Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- named after their
authors -- who ALSO were Jesus' disciples, and accompanied Him
throughout His ministry.

You ARE an idiot! Paul was not a follower of Jesus.
Not an apostle! he got his start as an enforcer for
the sanhedrin persecuting christians as Jewish heretics!
Please tell me you are trolling and not this ignorant!
Read acts 8!

Yes, the books were written after Jesus' death and resurrection.
But are you saying that no one who knew JFK could have (and did)
write books about *him* after he was assassinated? Do you think that
everyone who knows a person drops dead on the spot when that
person that they knew dies? And therefore couldn't be around
afterward to write books about him?

How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?


A scientist from 60 years ago could easily understand the
principles of modern electronics - that's because those principles
are based upon an accumulation of consistent, logical, evidence
based knowledge - something that cannot be said of the Bible.


Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.


Sorry Craig ...... but fulfilled prophecies ? You're kidding, right ?


Nope. There are hundreds of them. And not a single miss.


-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>

--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.

User: "Vic Sagerquist"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 12 May 2005 12:18:04 PM
On 11 May 2005, Craig Chilton dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

Sorry Craig ...... but fulfilled prophecies ? You're kidding, right ?


Nope. There are hundreds of them. And not a single miss.

Not one? So if I find one I have proven you a liar.
Luke 9:27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
2000 years later....
There are actually lots of them, which you for some reason seem to ignore.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
Lovingly plonked by Roger Pearse
______________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think
there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading
around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and
praying to a rock."
[Howard Stern]
.

User: "Azrael"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 13 May 2005 02:47:12 AM
On Thu, 12 May 2005 05:39:12 GMT, Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 10 May 2005 23:57:10 +1000,
Masked Avenger <cootey_59@yahoo.com> wrote:

Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com> wrote:



If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God?

Luke 2:52 reads: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and
stature and>in favor with God and men."

This verse just shows what I've been saying for quite some time:
the attributes attached to Jesus by the Bible writers are inconsistent,
and that seems to be because the stories about Jesus and percep-
tions about him were gathered from a variety of conflicting traditions.

The notion that Jesus, who was God, gained the favor of God,
is a little bit nonsensical, in my opinion.


The answer seems obvious, in *these* terms: The relationship
between/among/having to do with God vis-a-vis Jesus operates
in a frame of reference that's beyond our comprehension.


So, by your own logic, this frame of reference must also have
been beyond the comprehension of the humans that wrote the Bible --
so the only conclusion we can make is that their inconsistent
impressions are worthless.


Worthless, no, since they knew Jesus, and thus were able to
provide very accurate accounts. Opinionated in some cases, yes...
which led to the contradictions that exist in the Bible. Of all the
Bible's players. only God and Jesus were perfect.


What ? none of the authors of the NT 'knew' Jesus ........ the
first NT scriptures weren't written till well after his supposed death ...
there's no 'eyewitness' accounts of anything to do with Jesus .......
it's all hearsay .....


You're KIDDING, right? Ever hear of Paul? he was one of Jesus'
12 disciples... and he wrote *several* of the N.T. books.

Liar, no he didn't

Not to mention also Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- named after their
authors

They did'nt write thiers either.

-- who ALSO were Jesus' disciples, and accompanied Him
throughout His ministry.

And not one of them wrote any of it down

Yes, the books were written after Jesus' death and resurrection.
But are you saying that no one who knew JFK could have (and did)
write books about *him* after he was assassinated? Do you think that
everyone who knows a person drops dead on the spot when that
person that they knew dies? And therefore couldn't be around
afterward to write books about him?

You don't even know when these boks were written, for if you did you
would know how idiotic that you sound. The disciples were dead before
the first of those books were written.

How surprising is that? Well -- just think about the degree
to which scientists working with vacuum tubes 60 years ago
would have been able to comprehend today's circuit boards.
And that's only a mere SIXTY years! And God has a head
start on humanity by HOW many OCtillions of years?


A scientist from 60 years ago could easily understand the
principles of modern electronics - that's because those principles
are based upon an accumulation of consistent, logical, evidence
based knowledge - something that cannot be said of the Bible.


Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.


Sorry Craig ...... but fulfilled prophecies ? You're kidding, right ?


Nope. There are hundreds of them. And not a single miss.


-- Craig Chilton <xanadu222_@mchsi.com>

Azrael
The thiest/diest defense:
1)I believe in god, ergo god exists
2)I believe in god, ergo I know what god wills, wants, the path to god, etc.
3)I believe in god, ergo I am right/correct
4)You don't agree with me, you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
5)You dont' beleive as I do then you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
6)You want proof of god? (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
7)You have evidence god does not exist (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
8)If you don't believe as I do you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question #1: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2: What is the most mass/matter that a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
.



User: "The Great Hairy One"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 07:56:17 AM
In article <h8cv71pofc6cotj24rj8118gbr8h5qilko@4ax.com>, xanadu222
_@mchsi.com says...

Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.

Um, can you please state one of these fulfilled prophecies? Just one?
Thanks!
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.
User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 11:15:10 AM
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ceb5a7d41f97a38989945@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <h8cv71pofc6cotj24rj8118gbr8h5qilko@4ax.com>, xanadu222
_@mchsi.com says...

Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.


Um, can you please state one of these fulfilled prophecies? Just one?
Thanks!

The original poster may have his own list,
but I can also suggest a few,
although I have no idea where he gets his 2/3 statistic from.
1) That Ishmael will be great nation
2) That children of Israel would return from exile to the land of Israel
3) That the children of Israel are a 'special' people
1) Began to be fulfilled at the time of Muhammad,
1000 years after the writing of the Septuagint Translation,
after which time it would have been
next to impossible to insert known facts
in order to make the Bible look 'Prophetic'.
2) Fulfilled in our own time. See above.
3) This is a continuing description,
and doesn't sound like a prophesy,
but in a sense it is.
Jewish influence was crucial in the formation
of every other Monotheism (all 2 of them),
No other comparably small people
has found itself in the center of world affairs,
for so many generations.
No other people has returned from exile
to its ancient homeland,
speaking its ancient language,
keeping its ancient traditions,
against all odds.
Is that enough?
Zev
.
User: "The Great Hairy One"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 04:38:12 PM
In article <4280d086@news.bezeqint.net>,
says...
Gidday Zev,

The original poster may have his own list,
but I can also suggest a few,
although I have no idea where he gets his 2/3 statistic from.

1) That Ishmael will be great nation
2) That children of Israel would return from exile to the land of Israel
3) That the children of Israel are a 'special' people

1) Began to be fulfilled at the time of Muhammad,
1000 years after the writing of the Septuagint Translation,
after which time it would have been
next to impossible to insert known facts
in order to make the Bible look 'Prophetic'.

Firstly I've never heard of a nation called "Ishmael". Secondly, if you
mean the Arabic nations, well they were great once. Not so any more.
Does the prophecy state that this country will be great, and then
decline, only becoming important after the development of the internal
combustion engine?
Thirdly, this also could apply to dozens of nations - look at England.
Once ruled 2/3s of the known world, now, not so much. Or France, even.
Or Germany. China is on the rise, maybe it means them.

2) Fulfilled in our own time. See above.

Um, nope. There are still plenty of jews living outside Israel. Not all
of them have "returned" and not all of them ever will.
Y'know this is an amusing one - it's not one of the requirements for the
jewish "end times" at all, but the christians have latched onto it for
some reason.

3) This is a continuing description,
and doesn't sound like a prophesy,
but in a sense it is.
Jewish influence was crucial in the formation
of every other Monotheism (all 2 of them),
No other comparably small people
has found itself in the center of world affairs,
for so many generations.
No other people has returned from exile
to its ancient homeland,
speaking its ancient language,
keeping its ancient traditions,
against all odds.

Um, this isn't a prophecy. The original OT was written by the jews you
know. Stating that your own group or tribe is chosen of the god-concept
you are writing about is hardly prophetic.
If you read any other religious text, they pretty much say the same
thing. And they pretty much can be backed up by history - look at the
Vedas. They state that certain tribes of Indians will rule India for
time eternal, etc., etc. - and you know what - they have!
As for the whole 'jews being influential' I think that has to do with
other reasons, such as the geographical location they live in, rather
than any religious reasons.

Is that enough?

No. That's three out of how many? Sorry mate. :)
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.
User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 11 May 2005 01:56:05 AM
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cebd4d11308d2a2989958@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <4280d086@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...

Gidday Zev,

The original poster may have his own list,
but I can also suggest a few,
although I have no idea where he gets his 2/3 statistic from.

1) That Ishmael will be great nation
2) That children of Israel would return from exile to the land of Israel
3) That the children of Israel are a 'special' people

1) Began to be fulfilled at the time of Muhammad,
1000 years after the writing of the Septuagint Translation,
after which time it would have been
next to impossible to insert known facts
in order to make the Bible look 'Prophetic'.


Firstly I've never heard of a nation called "Ishmael". Secondly, if you
mean the Arabic nations, well they were great once. Not so any more.
Does the prophecy state that this country will be great, and then
decline, only becoming important after the development of the internal
combustion engine?

See Genesis 17:20.
It doesn't seem to refer to modern nation-states
or require the type of 'importance' you mention above.

Thirdly, this also could apply to dozens of nations - look at England.
Once ruled 2/3s of the known world, now, not so much. Or France, even.
Or Germany. China is on the rise, maybe it means them.

2) Fulfilled in our own time. See above.


Um, nope. There are still plenty of jews living outside Israel. Not all
of them have "returned" and not all of them ever will.
Y'know this is an amusing one - it's not one of the requirements for the
jewish "end times" at all, but the christians have latched onto it for
some reason.

Aren't these comments irrelevant to the point I'm making?


3) This is a continuing description,
and doesn't sound like a prophesy,
but in a sense it is.
Jewish influence was crucial in the formation
of every other Monotheism (all 2 of them),
No other comparably small people
has found itself in the center of world affairs,
for so many generations.
No other people has returned from exile
to its ancient homeland,
speaking its ancient language,
keeping its ancient traditions,
against all odds.


Um, this isn't a prophecy. The original OT was written by the jews you
know. Stating that your own group or tribe is chosen of the god-concept
you are writing about is hardly prophetic.

If you read any other religious text, they pretty much say the same
thing. And they pretty much can be backed up by history - look at the
Vedas. They state that certain tribes of Indians will rule India for
time eternal, etc., etc. - and you know what - they have!

As for the whole 'jews being influential' I think that has to do with
other reasons, such as the geographical location they live in, rather
than any religious reasons.

IMHO you're clutching at straws.

Is that enough?


No. That's three out of how many? Sorry mate. :)

You only asked for one!
.
User: "The Great Hairy One"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 11 May 2005 05:03:06 PM
In article <42819f07@news.bezeqint.net>,
says...
Gidday Zev,

See Genesis 17:20.

Yep.
Which country is "Ishmael"? What country does that refer to? It could
mean England. It's extremely vague.

It doesn't seem to refer to modern nation-states
or require the type of 'importance' you mention above.

Then it's not much of a prophecy is it? I could write better prophecy
than that!

Aren't these comments irrelevant to the point I'm making?

Ah, no. You see, you stated that the prophecy states that the jews will
return to Israel. Well, considering that jews live all over the world,
and not all of them want to live in Israel, the prophecy is either
failed, or yet to occur.

IMHO you're clutching at straws.

Ah, nope. I'm providing you with actual evidence to refute your
argument. You need to provide some actual evidence to refute *my*
argument. See, that's how a philosophical discussion works. :)

You only asked for one!

I asked for one that was actually fulfilled! Those three don't make the
cut, sorry mate. :)
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.
User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 12 May 2005 02:45:49 AM
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ced2c29bf8d619498996b@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <42819f07@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...
Gidday Zev,

See Genesis 17:20.


Yep.

Which country is "Ishmael"? What country does that refer to? It could
mean England. It's extremely vague.

You're just being silly.
The history of England is well known.
No Semitic people ever overran the British Isles.
But if it were true,
it would just confirm the Biblical prophesy you deny!

It doesn't seem to refer to modern nation-states
or require the type of 'importance' you mention above.


Then it's not much of a prophecy is it? I could write better prophecy
than that!

You accept only prophecies regarding 'countries'?

Aren't these comments irrelevant to the point I'm making?


Ah, no. You see, you stated that the prophecy states that the jews will
return to Israel. Well, considering that jews live all over the world,
and not all of them want to live in Israel, the prophecy is either
failed, or yet to occur.

You insist on looking at the Jews living 'all over the world',
instead of at the millions living in Israel.
Jews have lived in the land of Israel throughout the centuries
but the Jewish nation created in 1948 is a unique historic event,
and seems to be the beginning of fulfillment of ancient prophesies.

IMHO you're clutching at straws.


Ah, nope. I'm providing you with actual evidence to refute your
argument. You need to provide some actual evidence to refute *my*
argument. See, that's how a philosophical discussion works. :)

You only asked for one!


I asked for one that was actually fulfilled! Those three don't make the
cut, sorry mate. :)

Cheers,
TGHO

--
The Great Hairy One,

BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division

Roleplay. Just do it.

.
User: "Fred Stone"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 12 May 2005 08:03:34 AM
"zev" <
> wrote in news:4282fc39@news.bezeqint.net:

"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ced2c29bf8d619498996b@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <42819f07@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...
Gidday Zev,

See Genesis 17:20.


Yep.

Which country is "Ishmael"? What country does that refer to? It could
mean England. It's extremely vague.


You're just being silly.
The history of England is well known.
No Semitic people ever overran the British Isles.
But if it were true,
it would just confirm the Biblical prophesy you deny!

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22lost+tribes%22+britain
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
.

User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 13 May 2005 04:17:19 AM
"zev" <zev_horn@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4282fc39@news.bezeqint.net...

"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ced2c29bf8d619498996b@freenews.iinet.net.au...

Which country is "Ishmael"? What country does that refer to? It could
mean England. It's extremely vague.


You're just being silly.
The history of England is well known.
No Semitic people ever overran the British Isles.
But if it were true,
it would just confirm the Biblical prophesy you deny!

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22lost+tribes%22+britain

Even if you believe that the 10 lost tribes of Israel
eventually made their way to England
it doesn't mean that descendents of Ishmael
once overran England.
Of course, it would mean that a Semitic people
had once overran the British Isles,
so my statement above about 'no Semitic people...'
would be incorrect.
.

User: "The Great Hairy One"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 13 May 2005 08:45:12 AM
In article <4282fc39@news.bezeqint.net>,
says...
Gidday Zev,

You're just being silly.

No, I'm asking you what country Ishmael founded, or what country was the
equivalent to "Ishmael"?

The history of England is well known.
No Semitic people ever overran the British Isles.
But if it were true,
it would just confirm the Biblical prophesy you deny!

Considering England has never been referred to as "Ishmael", I don't
think so! :)

You accept only prophecies regarding 'countries'?

Not at all. Give me any prophecy from the bible which is exact, non-
ambiguous and definitely not written post-fact, and we can then discuss
it.

You insist on looking at the Jews living 'all over the world',
instead of at the millions living in Israel.
Jews have lived in the land of Israel throughout the centuries
but the Jewish nation created in 1948 is a unique historic event,
and seems to be the beginning of fulfillment of ancient prophesies.

Dude, self-fulfilling prophecy isn't a prophecy! If I say "The Great
Hairy will buy ice cream on Sunday" and then go and buy ice cream on
Sunday, I'm not foreseeing the future, I'm setting an agenda.
The jews wrote back in the bronze age that they would settle in Israel -
and guess what? After WW2, when they were offered six sites for their
homeland, they picked Israel. How non-specific is that? (It's not!)
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.
User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 15 May 2005 05:07:59 AM
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cef5a77ee85edf7989996@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <4282fc39@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...
Not at all. Give me any prophecy from the bible which is exact, non-
ambiguous and definitely not written post-fact, and we can then discuss
it.

Your requirements make your apparent assumption
that the Bible contains no real prophesy,
a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy of its own.

The jews wrote back in the bronze age that they would settle in Israel -
and guess what? After WW2, when they were offered six sites for their
homeland, they picked Israel. How non-specific is that? (It's not!)

That's a revelation!
Tell me about it,
who offered, what was offered, what were the conditions etc.
Are you sure you got this right?
.
User: "The Great Hairy One"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 15 May 2005 04:42:25 PM
In article <428711ff@news.bezeqint.net>,
says...
Gidday Zev,

Your requirements make your apparent assumption
that the Bible contains no real prophesy,
a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy of its own.

Not at all. For something to be prophetic, it needs to be definite,
obvious and unambiguous. I mean, anyone can say "the country of the
eastern river will become mighty", that's not a prophecy, because it
does not state which country it is talking about, when it will become
"mighty", and what it actually means by "mighty".
There are a couple examples of this within the bible - that
Nebuchadrezzar will destroy Tyre (he didn't) is a good one, as it states
names and places and we can isolate the timeframe. However, these few
examples within the bible are usually wrong anyway!

That's a revelation!
Tell me about it,
who offered, what was offered, what were the conditions etc.

Are you sure you got this right?

Nope. I remember my (jewish) grandfather talking about it, but I'll look
into it further.
Cheers,
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.
User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 16 May 2005 05:09:38 AM
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cf26d4f7c4f6a419899e9@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <428711ff@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...

Gidday Zev,

Your requirements make your apparent assumption
that the Bible contains no real prophesy,
a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy of its own.


Not at all. For something to be prophetic, it needs to be definite,
obvious and unambiguous. I mean, anyone can say "the country of the
eastern river will become mighty", that's not a prophecy, because it
does not state which country it is talking about, when it will become
"mighty", and what it actually means by "mighty".

I think Gen 17:20-21 are clear enough,
but you've already disagreed with me.

There are a couple examples of this within the bible - that
Nebuchadrezzar will destroy Tyre (he didn't) is a good one, as it states
names and places and we can isolate the timeframe. However, these few
examples within the bible are usually wrong anyway!

It's just a misspelling of 'Alexander the Great' :-)

That's a revelation!
Tell me about it,
who offered, what was offered, what were the conditions etc.

Are you sure you got this right?


Nope. I remember my (jewish) grandfather talking about it, but I'll look
into it further.

I really think there's a misunderstanding here,
but I'd be happy to see whatever you can find on the subject.
You can send a reply to my email address,
it's real, but I don't check it every day.
.
User: "The Great Hairy One"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 17 May 2005 04:13:40 PM
In article <428863e8@news.bezeqint.net>,
says...
Gidday Zev,

I think Gen 17:20-21 are clear enough,
but you've already disagreed with me.

Clear? How is it clear? What country was Ishmael? Where was it? Who were
the "12 princes"? When did it become great? What was meant by "great"?
It's about as clear as me saying "the country of Fred will fall and
shatter". It's meaningless, because any country that has had twelve
princes (England, France, Germany, Spain, Russia, China, Japan, etc.,
etc) that has colonial holdings can be considered "great" and thus
fulfil the "prophecy".

It's just a misspelling of 'Alexander the Great' :-)

Except that Nebuchadrezzar was an actual person who existed independent
of Alexander the Great. And Alex didn't destroy Tyre either! People
still live there, you know.

I really think there's a misunderstanding here,
but I'd be happy to see whatever you can find on the subject.
You can send a reply to my email address,
it's real, but I don't check it every day.

I'm trying to chase it up. Will get back to you.
Cheers
TGHO
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.



User: "wcb"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 15 May 2005 08:07:43 AM
zev wrote:

"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cef5a77ee85edf7989996@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <4282fc39@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...
Not at all. Give me any prophecy from the bible which is exact, non-
ambiguous and definitely not written post-fact, and we can then discuss
it.


Your requirements make your apparent assumption
that the Bible contains no real prophesy,
a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy of its own.

Really, only one prophecy matters.
*************************************************
The outrageous failed prophecy of Jesus
that he'd preside over the end of the world
and judgment day itself 1930 years ago.
William C. Barwell 3-16-05
*************************************************

Jesus prophecied he'd preside over the end of
the world (Matthew 24:3) and judgment day itself,
(Matthew 16:27-8), he claims he will "come in his
kingdom"and "reward all men according to their
acts".
This is expanded on in Matthew 25:31-45.
He will come in the glory of his angels,
he will be "the King". He will ascend to his
"throne of glory" and gather the nations.
He will sort the "sheep" from the "goats" the
good from the evil. Good will be rewarded with
eternal life in heaven, evil will depart into
"everlasting fire prepared for the devil and
his apostles" (Matthew 25:41)
This is what he means by come in his kingdom.
He will literally be "the King" of the world,
And will preside over judgment day itself.
(Matthew 25:31-34), (John 5:23, 5:27).
When? Matthew 16:27-8 has Jesus assuring his
listeners that "some standing here" will live
to see this all happen. See also Mark 9:1.
Matthew 24-5 is one long pericope. A narrative.
Here we are assured that this will happen in
"this generation", Matthew 24:36, see also Luke
21:32, and Mark 13:30.
This generation will see the sun and moon fail, the
stars fall from heaven. Then Jesus will descend with
his fathers angels and "clouds of heaven".
"This generation" is to see this. Again, Matthew 24,
Mark 13, Luke 21.
He tells the high priest at Jerusalem that he
too will see Jesus descend with "clouds of heaven"
the same phrase he tells us "this generation"
is to see in Matthew 24:36. See also Mark 14:62.
This phrase "clouds of heaven" of Matthew 26:64
and Mark 14:62 thus pins down the happenings of
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to be seen in the
times of "this generation" as being seen by then
living high priest, and "Some standing here".
Not some generation 1930 years later.
The "high priest", "this generation", "Some standing
here" did not see these things happen as prophecied.
No religion has ever failed as spectacularly in its
'prophecies' as has Christianity.
This also puts an end to Revelations, all of that
too was to have taken place some 1930 years ago.
Christianity thus is incredibly irrelevant to anything,
having utterly failed in the main claim of Jesus,
when none of this happened as prophecied, by Jesus,
alledged god himself according to many trinitarian
Christians.
If Jesus, supposed son of god was so wrong on this,
his main claim, he isn't going to be right on anything
else. This is the most obvious failed 'prophet' and
the most failed religion of all time. And its finally
time to admit these facts.
(End)
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.
User: "zev"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 16 May 2005 04:56:38 AM
"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:118ehvtor0ehn96@corp.supernews.com...

zev wrote:

"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cef5a77ee85edf7989996@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <4282fc39@news.bezeqint.net>,

says...
Not at all. Give me any prophecy from the bible which is exact, non-
ambiguous and definitely not written post-fact, and we can then discuss
it.


Your requirements make your apparent assumption
that the Bible contains no real prophesy,
a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy of its own.

Really, only one prophecy matters.

I don't see the point in this statement (above).
I have a feeling it's because you didn't understand mine
The following 'prophesies' from the NT
are unrelated to my posts.
Perhaps some of the Christians on ARI
would like to discuss them.

*************************************************
The outrageous failed prophecy of Jesus
that he'd preside over the end of the world
and judgment day itself 1930 years ago.
William C. Barwell 3-16-05
*************************************************

Jesus prophecied he'd preside over the end of
the world (Matthew 24:3) and judgment day itself,
(Matthew 16:27-8), he claims he will "come in his
kingdom"and "reward all men according to their
acts".

This is expanded on in Matthew 25:31-45.
He will come in the glory of his angels,
he will be "the King". He will ascend to his
"throne of glory" and gather the nations.
He will sort the "sheep" from the "goats" the
good from the evil. Good will be rewarded with
eternal life in heaven, evil will depart into
"everlasting fire prepared for the devil and
his apostles" (Matthew 25:41)
This is what he means by come in his kingdom.
He will literally be "the King" of the world,
And will preside over judgment day itself.
(Matthew 25:31-34), (John 5:23, 5:27).

When? Matthew 16:27-8 has Jesus assuring his
listeners that "some standing here" will live
to see this all happen. See also Mark 9:1.

Matthew 24-5 is one long pericope. A narrative.
Here we are assured that this will happen in
"this generation", Matthew 24:36, see also Luke
21:32, and Mark 13:30.

This generation will see the sun and moon fail, the
stars fall from heaven. Then Jesus will descend with
his fathers angels and "clouds of heaven".
"This generation" is to see this. Again, Matthew 24,
Mark 13, Luke 21.

He tells the high priest at Jerusalem that he
too will see Jesus descend with "clouds of heaven"
the same phrase he tells us "this generation"
is to see in Matthew 24:36. See also Mark 14:62.

This phrase "clouds of heaven" of Matthew 26:64
and Mark 14:62 thus pins down the happenings of
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 to be seen in the
times of "this generation" as being seen by then
living high priest, and "Some standing here".
Not some generation 1930 years later.

The "high priest", "this generation", "Some standing
here" did not see these things happen as prophecied.
No religion has ever failed as spectacularly in its
'prophecies' as has Christianity.

This also puts an end to Revelations, all of that
too was to have taken place some 1930 years ago.

Christianity thus is incredibly irrelevant to anything,
having utterly failed in the main claim of Jesus,
when none of this happened as prophecied, by Jesus,
alledged god himself according to many trinitarian
Christians.

If Jesus, supposed son of god was so wrong on this,
his main claim, he isn't going to be right on anything
else. This is the most obvious failed 'prophet' and
the most failed religion of all time. And its finally
time to admit these facts.

(End)






--

When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie

.








User: "Vic Sagerquist"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 06:04:34 PM
On 10 May 2005, zev dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ceb5a7d41f97a38989945@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <h8cv71pofc6cotj24rj8118gbr8h5qilko@4ax.com>, xanadu222
_@mchsi.com says...

Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it
contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss.
The odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not
exactly what you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.


Um, can you please state one of these fulfilled prophecies? Just one?
Thanks!


The original poster may have his own list,
but I can also suggest a few,
although I have no idea where he gets his 2/3 statistic from.

1) That Ishmael will be great nation

Where is Ishmael?

2) That children of Israel would return from exile to the land of
Israel

There is no record of a mass exodus from Egypt, or of a large population
of Jewish slaves there. And the Egyptians were extremely anal about
records.

3) That the children of Israel are a 'special' people

What kind of prophesy is this? I can make one too. The people of
America are special. There, guaranteed to come true.


1) Began to be fulfilled at the time of Muhammad,
1000 years after the writing of the Septuagint Translation,
after which time it would have been
next to impossible to insert known facts
in order to make the Bible look 'Prophetic'.

2) Fulfilled in our own time. See above.

3) This is a continuing description,
and doesn't sound like a prophesy,
but in a sense it is.
Jewish influence was crucial in the formation
of every other Monotheism (all 2 of them),
No other comparably small people
has found itself in the center of world affairs,
for so many generations.
No other people has returned from exile
to its ancient homeland,
speaking its ancient language,
keeping its ancient traditions,
against all odds.

Is that enough?

It's inconclusive. Like I said before, how difficult would it be to read
about the prophesies in an old religious book, then fulfil them in the
sequel?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
Lovingly plonked by Roger Pearse
______________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't
think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and
parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face
white and praying to a rock."
[Howard Stern]
.

User: "Azrael"

Title: Re: If Jesus IS God.... How can Jesus increase in favor with God? 10 May 2005 04:57:50 PM
On Tue, 10 May 2005 18:15:10 +0200, "zev" <zev_horn@yahoo.com> wrote:

"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ceb5a7d41f97a38989945@freenews.iinet.net.au...

In article <h8cv71pofc6cotj24rj8118gbr8h5qilko@4ax.com>, xanadu222
_@mchsi.com says...

Wanna bet? Check out the number of prophecies that it contains.
And concentrate just on those that could not possibly have been
self-fulfilling. 2/3 have been fulfilled without a single miss. The
odds against that are *literally* astronomical. That's not exactly what
you said, but it comes close enough as an analogue.


Um, can you please state one of these fulfilled prophecies? Just one?
Thanks!


The original poster may have his own list,
but I can also suggest a few,
although I have no idea where he gets his 2/3 statistic from.

1) That Ishmael will be great nation

Where is this great nation? I can't find it on my map anywhere.

2) That children of Israel would return from exile to the land of Israel

Well since there are jews in many countries around the world still to
this day, they obviously have not returned.

3) That the children of Israel are a 'special' people

Special in their minds anyway

1) Began to be fulfilled at the time of Muhammad,
1000 years after the writing of the Septuagint Translation,
after which time it would have been
next to impossible to insert known facts
in order to make the Bible look 'Prophetic'.

Ismael doesn't exist on any map that I have seen

2) Fulfilled in our own time. See above.

Still not fulfilled and they haven't even found all the tribes yet, so
at best it could be said some of the children of Israel have returned,
even then it's still a self fulfilling prophecy kind of like a goal

3) This is a continuing description,
and doesn't sound like a prophesy,
but in a sense it is.
Jewish influence was crucial in the formation
of every other Monotheism (all 2 of them),
No other comparably small people
has found itself in the center of world affairs,
for so many generations.

I can think of a few, sciencetist for one example, and they still
influence world affairs

No other people has returned from exile
to its ancient homeland,
speaking its ancient language,

They don't speak their ancient language, just like Americans don't
speak the same English as their for fathers from England

keeping its ancient traditions,

They don't have all their ancient traditions, then again many cultures
keep their ancient traditions as they disperse throughout the world
and when/if their children return to their homeland they maintain them
there as well

against all odds.

Is that enough?

No
Azrael
The thiest/diest defense:
1)I believe in god, ergo god exists
2)I believe in god, ergo I know what god wills, wants, the path to god, etc.
3)I believe in god, ergo I am right/correct
4)You don't agree with me, you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
5)You dont' beleive as I do then you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
6)You want proof of god? (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
7)You have evidence god does not exist (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
8)If you don't believe as I do you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question #1: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2: What is the most mass/matter that a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
.







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