I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Buddy"
Date:	28 Aug 2003 09:20:37 PM
Object:	I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...

Howdy thar Atheist-folk,
I'm feeling a bit bored and your latest posts haven't done much to
capture my interest, so I thought I'd start something. So, load up
your cannons and light the fuses ... Let's Talk About PURPOSE IN LIFE:
As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple -- it can be
summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God
2. Love Everybody Else
That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.
So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?
Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.
I look forward to your replies ...
Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com
.

User: "John Baker"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 05:49:27 AM

"Buddy" <buddy@EngineersGuideToGod.com> wrote in message
news:607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com...

Howdy thar Atheist-folk,

I'm feeling a bit bored and your latest posts haven't done much to
capture my interest,

Sorry. We'll try to slip in a few hallelujahs and amens from now on just to
make you feel at home.

so I thought I'd start something.

A Christian coming to alt.atheism to start something. Gee, *that's* never
happened before...... ;-)

So, load up
your cannons and light the fuses ... Let's Talk About PURPOSE IN LIFE:

And I'll just bet I know what's coming....

As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple

All things considered, it would about have to be, wouldn't it?

-- it can be
summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God

.........yep. I knew that was coming...

2. Love Everybody Else

Damn, that should keep you busy. Aren't you afraid you'll catch something?

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

Well, I can see you're the ambitious type...

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

Living my life free of both the fear of eternal damnation and the false hope
of eternal reward. Doing the right thing because it's the right thing, not
because I fear eternal punishment or hope to curry favor with some
capricious sky pixie. Freely admitting that I don't have all the answers,
and taking some small satisfaction from the fact that I don't feel the need
to conjure up a supernatural being to serve as a default "explanation" for
everything I don't understand. Understanding and accepting that life isn't
always great, but realizing that the bad things that happen don't happen for
a reason, and that facing your problems on your knees with your eyes closed
won't solve them. And perhaps most importantly, realizing that each of us
creates our own purpose in life, and that I don't wish to waste mine in
self-imposed servitude to a Bronze Age myth.
.

User: "Buddy"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 09:00:10 AM

"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message news:<XcG3b.21141$l41.4889128@twister.neo.rr.com>...

"Buddy" <buddy@EngineersGuideToGod.com> wrote in message
news:607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com...

Howdy thar Atheist-folk,

I'm feeling a bit bored and your latest posts haven't done much to
capture my interest,

Sorry. We'll try to slip in a few hallelujahs and amens from now on just to
make you feel at home.

so I thought I'd start something.

A Christian coming to alt.atheism to start something. Gee, *that's* never
happened before...... ;-)

So, load up
your cannons and light the fuses ... Let's Talk About PURPOSE IN LIFE:

And I'll just bet I know what's coming....

As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple

All things considered, it would about have to be, wouldn't it?

-- it can be
summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God

........yep. I knew that was coming...

2. Love Everybody Else

Damn, that should keep you busy. Aren't you afraid you'll catch something?

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

Well, I can see you're the ambitious type...

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

"Capricious sky pixie" -- I gotta admit, that was a good one.
Buddy
.

User: "Denis Loubet"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 12:39:42 PM

"Buddy" <buddy@EngineersGuideToGod.com> wrote in message
news:607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com...

Howdy thar Atheist-folk,

I'm feeling a bit bored and your latest posts haven't done much to
capture my interest, so I thought I'd start something. So, load up
your cannons and light the fuses ... Let's Talk About PURPOSE IN LIFE:

As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple -- it can be
summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God
2. Love Everybody Else

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

I look forward to your replies ...

So let me get this straight, you claim to love that which you seek to
crassly manipulate.
Yeah, I guess that's christian hypocrisy in a nutshell.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.

User: "Kenneth Doyle"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	28 Aug 2003 09:57:55 PM

(Buddy) wrote in
news:607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com:

Howdy thar Atheist-folk,

I'm feeling a bit bored and your latest posts haven't done
much to capture my interest, so I thought I'd start
something. So, load up your cannons and light the fuses
... Let's Talk About PURPOSE IN LIFE:

As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple -- it
can be summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God
2. Love Everybody Else

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in
Heaven.

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

I look forward to your replies ...

Define "love".
.

User: "Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	28 Aug 2003 11:05:27 PM

(Buddy) wrote in
news:607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com:

Why? This particular god is alleged to have murdered nearly everyone
alive on earth and then arranged to have its' own halfling son put to
death for some incomprehensible reason. There are also many other
attrocities it either claimed (in the christian book) to have committed
or otherwise incited others. If this god actually did exist, I don't see
anything to recommend it.

2. Love Everybody Else

Not necessarily a bad thing depending on what you mean by love.

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

What is heaven and why would you want to spend an eternity there?

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

We only get one shot at life. Do the best you can.
Llanzlan.

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

I look forward to your replies ...

Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com

User: "Woden"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	28 Aug 2003 10:30:24 PM

(Buddy) wrote in
news:607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com:

Why do you think that there is a "purpose in life"?

As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple -- it can be
summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God

What's a god?
Considering that the xian biblical god perpetrated numerous mass murders of
humans, why would you want to love such an entity?

2. Love Everybody Else

Do you pay or just do freebies?

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

What do you think happens in heaven? What makes it so attractive for
eternity?

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

Usually gratuitous nudity helps...

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

That's what the nudity's for...

I look forward to your replies ...

--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.

User: "Igtheist"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	31 Aug 2003 02:49:57 PM

(Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com>...

As a Christian, my purpose in life is fairly simple -- it can be
summed up by the two greatest commandments:
1. Love God
2. Love Everybody Else

Don't you remember the consequences of promiscuity from your health
class? If you feel you must then at the very least please make sure
you use a condom.
.

User: "dave e"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 08:40:33 AM

(Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com>...

How sweet. I wish you the best in fulfilling these vaguely written
(but admirable) commandments.

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

I don't believe in Heaven, but if that's what keeps you motivated to
"Love Everybody", even when they do you wrong, who am I to argue?

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

My purpose in life is to take care of my family, to be a good roll
model for the youth of my community, and to take care of the
environment so it will still be there for others to appreciate
generations after I'm gone.
Dave.

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

I look forward to your replies ...

Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com

User: "Kermit"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 11:16:35 AM

(Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0308281820.69558e27@posting.google.com>...

An old thought, yes:
"Love god, and love thy neighbor - all the rest is mere commentary."
Hillel, chief rabbi of Jerusalem, 40 BC

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

Sounds... exciting.

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

I want to throw a punch without wobbling.

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

I look forward to your replies ...

Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com

--- Kermit
.

User: "Mike Smith"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 10:01:36 AM

(Buddy) wrote:
=Howdy thar Atheist-folk,
=
=I'm feeling a bit bored and your latest posts haven't done much to
=capture my interest,
--snip--
Oh, well.
__________________________________________
��
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
��
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall
not pass, till all these things be done." - Mark 13:30
.

User: "Buddy"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 08:48:28 AM

(Kronk) wrote in message news:<3f4ec88e.41633265@news.gvtc.com>...

On 28 Aug 2003 19:20:37 -0700,

(Buddy)
wrote:

snippity snip

The Bible contains many different commandments. How did you arrive at
the conclusion that these were the two greatest? Did you use your own
judgement, or are you uncritically accepting the say-so of someone
else?

Someone else -- Jesus -- see Matthew 22:37-40.

Do you derive your purpose from these commandments because of the
nature of the commandments, or is it because of the source?

Yup and yup.

If your
God had not made these particular commandments, would you still be
able to find purpose by adhering to the principles embodied in them?

Yup.

If your God commanded you to slay your family, would you find purpose
in obeying that commandment?

I'll let you know if that ever happens ...
(Immediate family only? Does this include my mother-in-law?)

Do you feel purpose can be self-determined, or must it be derived from
without? What is your God's purpose, and where did he get it?

Hmmm, that's a good one ... First question is easy -- either works.
Second question ...
God describes Himself as Love. So, I would suggest that Love is God's
highest purpose. Where did He get it? Hmmm ... That brings up what
is probably the biggest stumbling block for an atheist -- God didn't
go out and get it. God is. He doesn't change, He just is.
Eternally, backwards and forwards. So, God's purpose is love. God's
purpose has always been love.

Are you capable of loving on command? Is that a good basis for love?

That is reasonable, but it depends on how you define love. If you
define love as a feeling of affection, then one would not be capable
of genuinely conjuring it up on command. But, I define love as
"choosing to do that which benefits someone." That can be done on
command.

What does it mean to love everybody else--what practical difference
does it make? If you love person X without regard to the attributes
of person X, how can it be said that you love the particular person
that is person X?

Ummm ... What?
If you mean, "How can you love somebody you don't know?" then see my
definition of love -- it's quite easy to do something to benefit a
stranger.

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

Will you love all those who God saw fit to cast into eternal torture?
Will you be able to love them without feeling any discomfort at their
horrible fate?

Why do you believe in "eternal torture"? Some Bible thumper tell you
that? I'll sum up my belief briefly: The Bible mentions 3 words for
where (non-Christian) people go after they die -- sheol (Hebrew for
the grave or for the world of the dead), Hades (Greek for the world of
the dead), and Gehenna (the lake of fire). Most Bibles translate
sheol to "grave" or "hell" and both Hades and Gehenna to "Hell."
However, sheol and Hades both refer to a place that souls go to await
the final judgement. Gehenna is the place they go after the
judgement. Souls are not referred to as living after they go to
Gehenna. Gehenna is referred to as the "second death." So, I do not
believe that the souls of those who do not submit to God are eternally
and hopelessly punished. I believe those souls, who will not submit
to God and enter Heaven, are obliterated in Gehenna. In truth, I
admit -- I don't really know. I haven't been to eternity yet. I
suspect we'll all learn a lot when we get there. I look forward to
that, but I don't fool myself into believing that I yet comprehend it.
I do comprehend this from direct experience in the here and now: God
takes care of me. He always has. That's enough for me. That's all I
really need to know.

How will you know it is you when you get to Heaven? If another being
believed it was you, would that being, by virtue of that fact, *be*
you?

Ummm ... maybe I could pinch myself or something?

Will you change into something else over the course of an eternity, or
will you remain forever unchanging over that unimaginably vast stretch
of time?

Got no idea, man. I don't think it's going to be all about me.

If you succeed in your goal of existing for trillions of trillions of
eons, loving everyone, what will that accomplish? Is there any point
to your purpose?

That's not exactly my goal. My goal is to experience God -- to know
Him face to face.
What does that accomplish? What's the point? When you look at
something beautiful -- a pretty sunset, a mountain range on a perfect
day, children playing in the park ... Do you ask those questions?

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

I work out my values, I set my priorities in accordance with my
values, and I set my own agenda as to how best to pursue that which I
need to take care of and that which I would like to accomplish. That
is enough purpose for me.

Sounds good. So, what are your values?

Perhaps that will perk things up a bit.

So you are finding it too boring for you here. Do you think someone
with your low threshold of boredom is a good candidate for enduring
existence for an eternity?

Kronk

Well, the truth is, I was mostly just finding the recent postings in
alt.atheism a little boring. I figured maybe some of ya'll were on
summer vacation or something ...
Thanks for your reply -- that was a good one. Got me thinking ...
Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com
.

User: "Kronk"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	29 Aug 2003 03:33:38 PM

On 29 Aug 2003 06:48:28 -0700,

(Buddy)
wrote:

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in message news:<3f4ec88e.41633265@news.gvtc.com>...

On 28 Aug 2003 19:20:37 -0700,

(Buddy)
wrote:

snippity snip

Someone else -- Jesus -- see Matthew 22:37-40.

So basically, you are accepting someone's translation of an
unsubstantiated rumor, from an unknown author, in a book known to
contain many factual errors, about what some unproven and improbable
man/god supposedly said. There are a large number of competing
religions which have similarly unsubstantiated pronouncements from
other godly or god-related beings. How did you determine that yours
could be relied upon and that the others could not?

If your
God had not made these particular commandments, would you still be
able to find purpose by adhering to the principles embodied in them?

Yup.

So you didn't need a god to utter them at all.

If your God commanded you to slay your family, would you find purpose
in obeying that commandment?

I'll let you know if that ever happens ...

(Immediate family only? Does this include my mother-in-law?)

I'm not sure how much family you have, but say something of the
magnitude of commanding you to slay your son. I think the Bible makes
it clear that the God character is capable of issuing such a command.

...What is your God's purpose, and where did he get it?

<...>

God describes Himself as Love. So, I would suggest that Love is God's
highest purpose.

How long did God supposedly exist before the time of Creation? Did
God love anything apart from himself when there was nothing apart from
himself? Did he have no purpose before Creation?

Where did He get it? Hmmm ... That brings up what
is probably the biggest stumbling block for an atheist -- God didn't
go out and get it. God is. He doesn't change, He just is.

This is not a stumbling block for atheists. The absurdities of
religions we don't accept don't get in our way at all. The
nonsensical notion of a perpetually petrified life form which acts
without acting and moves without moving is only a stumbling block in
the path of thinking Christians. It is, in fact, a block that has
caused many Christians to tumble right out of Christianity.

1) That would seem to be a rather unique definition of love. (I
"love" my septic tank bacteria because I choose to do things which
happen to be to their benefit?)
2) Can you really benefit everyone on command? All 6+ billion of
them? Or is it enough merely to *choose* to benefit everyone, even if
there isn't the remotest chance you will succeed in your choice?

Ummm ... What?

This was before I understood you were using a novel definition of
love. This goes to the issue of personal vs. impersonal love. eg.
would you love Jack even if I changed each of his attributes to match
those of John? If you say you would love Jack even if he were
absolutely identical in every respect to John, do you still love Jack,
or is it John that you love. Impersonal love is love for the
placeholder that a person happens to occupy, irrespective of the
person who happens to occupy it.

That's my goal now, and that's my plan for eternity in Heaven.

Will you love all those who God saw fit to cast into eternal torture?
Will you be able to love them without feeling any discomfort at their
horrible fate?

Why do you believe in "eternal torture"?

I don't. I'm no longer a Christian.

Some Bible thumper tell you that?

The doctrine of Hell is to be found in most of the major branches of
Christianity. It is generally one of the main reasons offered to show
why we need to accept the doctrine of Salvation. There are, of
course, Christians who reject the doctrine of Hell, just as there are
Christians who reject the doctrine of Salvation. Every Christian on
this planet is viewed as following erroneous doctrine by some other
Christian.

I'll sum up my belief briefly: The Bible mentions 3 words for
where (non-Christian) people go after they die -- sheol (Hebrew for
the grave or for the world of the dead), Hades (Greek for the world of
the dead), and Gehenna (the lake of fire). Most Bibles translate
sheol to "grave" or "hell" and both Hades and Gehenna to "Hell."
However, sheol and Hades both refer to a place that souls go to await
the final judgement. Gehenna is the place they go after the
judgement. Souls are not referred to as living after they go to
Gehenna.

So the wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on where, in your view?

Gehenna is referred to as the "second death." So, I do not
believe that the souls of those who do not submit to God are eternally
and hopelessly punished. I believe those souls, who will not submit
to God and enter Heaven, are obliterated in Gehenna.

Out of idle curiosity, what Bible passage says that? Or are you
embellishing the text a bit? And you do know that there are millions
who have a different and sincerely-held interpretation of the Bible,
right? Is there anything to commend your view over theirs?

In truth, I admit -- I don't really know. I haven't been to eternity yet. I
suspect we'll all learn a lot when we get there.

In your view, is Heaven a prison, or can anyone leave of their own
accord at any time they choose? If someone tires of existence after,
say, a scant 600 decillion years, can they opt for obliteration in
Gehenna? Or is this something else you don't know?

I look forward to
that, but I don't fool myself into believing that I yet comprehend it.

If you don't really know what is awaiting you, how do you know it will
be something you'll like?

I do comprehend this from direct experience in the here and now: God
takes care of me. He always has.

How can you tell you are being taken care of, and how can you tell it
is God that is doing it?

How will you know it is you when you get to Heaven? If another being
believed it was you, would that being, by virtue of that fact, *be*
you?

Ummm ... maybe I could pinch myself or something?

So you think you are going to have flesh and fingers and such? Even
if so, couldn't a being that thought it was you also have flesh and
fingers?

If you succeed in your goal of existing for trillions of trillions of
eons, loving everyone, what will that accomplish? Is there any point
to your purpose?

Nope. I just enjoy them. But then, if you took my approach, you
wouldn't be preoccupied with purpose in life in the first place.

So, that works for me ... What works for an atheist?

Sounds good. So, what are your values?

The list of things that are important to me would be rather long, and
not a great deal different from what it is for most people--life,
health, self-esteem, interaction with others, liberty, fairness, and
such. Presumably, the main points of interest would be where my list
differs from yours. For example, high on your list is the importance
of getting your big reward--eternal life in Heaven. I can't tell
whether you value that even more than you value devotion to God. (If
God told you it would please him if you would go to Gehenna to take
the place of Ghandi there, would you go?) I like reward too, but I'm
content with much more modest reward, and there are a lot of things
that matter to me more than receiving reward. I suspect you value God
more than you value your fellow humans, so that would be a case where
you have a value high on your list that is entirely absent from my
list. I, on the other hand, highly value rationality and intellectual
honesty, whereas you can easily trump any of those on your list (if
they are there) with your religious values. Are there any values in
particular that you were curious about?
Kronk
.

User: "Kronk"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	30 Aug 2003 05:02:07 PM

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:55:01 GMT, William Boutwell
<dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f4f96b1.9024847@news.gvtc.com:

On 29 Aug 2003 06:48:28 -0700,

(Buddy)
wrote:

<snip of exceedingly complimentary material by William Boutwell>
Gracious. That was certainly unexpected, but I'll accept it with
thanks. It was a nice pick-me-up to cap an otherwise not-so-good
week. I have to say, though, that a lot of the credit goes to the
regulars of alt.atheism, from whom I liberally borrow, and to the
many, many guests of a.a who have so selflessly volunteered for target
practice.

Please continue to write. You have an audience (well, at least you have
me) of awed fans here in alt.atheism.

Even to know I have one fan is one more than I expected. I'm pleased
to know my little missives are being enjoyed by someone.
<...>

The question was, "So, what are your values?"

I value honesty and integrity.

Without these two virtues there's very little else in life that has
value. What good to be rich and famous if you've achieved these things
through theft or fraud? Won't you always be afraid that someone will
open your closet full of skeletons and the bones will tell the tale?

In me, these are high-ranking values, but I think they are derivative
values stemming from the importance I place on being able to respect
myself. Even if I could bury some theft or fraud so well I could be
sure no-one else would find it, I wouldn't be able to hide it from me.
I would rather live poor than gain riches and feel contempt for the
way I gained them. Same applies to intellectual honesty. I'd rather
face a rational conclusion I didn't like than know I abandoned reason
for the sake of a comforting fiction. If I try to lie to myself, I,
in effect, try to divide myself so that I can become both deceiver and
victim. On both counts, the loser is always me.
<...>

Eventually, you've done so many things that are silly or ridiculous, told
yourself so many lies that your honesty has become satire.

Then comes the day when you have to reclaim your integrity for your own
sake, or discard it for the sake of others.

I remember my last days as a Christian. Thoughts of family, friends,
and fellow churchgoers were much on my mind, but I think the main
reason I tried to hang onto my faith at the end was for my sake. I
liked the comfort I got from from faith--having a friend close at hand
all the time; feeling special, loved, protected and cared for;
believing my story will have a happy (never)ending. And outside of my
cozy, familiar world of faith was the Abyss of the Unknown--a scary
void that I had previously only known as the express route to Hell.
As I had done with Santa years before, I did try to lie to myself, to
pretend that I believed when I knew I really didn't. But, luckily for
me, it turns out I am not a very convincing liar.
Kronk
.

User: "Mike Smith"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	31 Aug 2003 04:27:18 PM

(Kronk) wrote:
= William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:
--snip--
=>Please continue to write. You have an audience (well,
=>at least you have me) of awed fans here in alt.atheism.
=
=Even to know I have one fan is one more than I expected.
=I'm pleased to know my little missives are being enjoyed by
=someone.
FWIW, I read them all, too.
--snip--
=I remember my last days as a Christian. Thoughts of family,
=friends, and fellow churchgoers were much on my mind,
=but I think the main reason I tried to hang onto my faith at
=the end was for my sake. I liked the comfort I got from from
=faith--having a friend close at hand all the time; feeling
=special, loved, protected and cared for; believing my story
=will have a happy (never)ending. And outside of my cozy,
=familiar world of faith was the Abyss of the Unknown--a
=scary void that I had previously only known as the express
=route to Hell. As I had done with Santa years before, I did
=try to lie to myself, to pretend that I believed when I knew
=I really didn't. But, luckily for me, it turns out I am not a
=very convincing liar.
Reading things like this makes me glad I was never
indoctrinated as a child.
__________________________________________
��
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
��
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall
not pass, till all these things be done." - Mark 13:30
.

User: "Kronk"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	01 Sep 2003 05:00:26 PM

Sorry I winked out for a bit. My ISP is having problems.
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:21:07 GMT, William Boutwell
<dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f510148.14182863@news.gvtc.com:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:55:01 GMT, William Boutwell
<dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:

<...>

Eventually, you've done so many things that are silly or ridiculous,
told yourself so many lies that your honesty has become satire.

Then comes the day when you have to reclaim your integrity for your
own sake, or discard it for the sake of others.

Okay, perhaps I should have written a couple more lines in that
paragraph, but I was writing for effect and it seemed right at the time
to stop where I did. I do believe, however, that many people cling to
their faith despite their doubts, genuinely afraid of the effects it will
have on others if they give it up.

I hope it didn't come across that I was disagreeing with you, because
I think you are right. I had some of those concerns myself. I was
just recalling that, in my particular case, there were also more
selfish factors mixed in with my consideration of others.

My deconversion was simple compared to that of many - it came to me in a
flash of insight that I'd been lied to and was lying to myself about the
religion I'd been raised to trust. At 13 I didn't have the long term
emotional involvement that older apostates have to deal with.

Still, I kept my mouth shut about my discovery. Even then I knew the
stigma that would attach should I tell others that I just didn't believe
the stories any longer.

I can only guess how much more difficult such revelation is for someone
who spent much more of their life as a believer than I.

I probably did land with a harder bump as a result of falling out
later, but I don't wish I could have fallen out earlier, or wish, as
is the case for some here, that I'd never believed at all. Had I
fallen out earlier, I think I would have felt resentment towards the
people who told me falsehoods, but having spent some time telling the
stories to others myself, I can't feel any grudge--at least not
without condemning myself.
I'm actually happy I got to spend some time on the other side of the
looking glass, not only for the feelings of joy and amazement that I
got to experience while I was there, but also for now being able to
see a number of issues from two different perspectives. One of those
perspectives is fading over the years, so it isn't quite as good as
having stereoscopic vision, but I can still remember how I felt and
imagine how I would have responded to a given situation as a believer
if I work at it. I don't think having two perspectives gives me that
much more insight into what I'm observing, but it gives me more
insight into me. I feel like I'm in a better position to judge which
perspective makes more sense, having had a solid experience of both.

Many Christians accuse we atheists of choosing the easy path.

They couldn't possibly imagine how wrong they are. They don't know how
painful facing the facts can be.

They'll never know freedom, either.

They feel the same way about us. I know I didn't feel trapped until
the very end. I just felt like I was where I wanted to be, and my
faith made it possible for me to be there. It wasn't until there was
a conflict between my faith and the direction I was moving that I felt
any force of restraint at all. I suspect it's a lot like being in a
relationship. You only feel trapped when you are in a bad
relationship. In my case, I didn't get to enjoy any great feeling of
liberation as a result of falling out of faith because my faith was
still important to me when I simply lost it. It probably felt about
as liberating for me as getting dumped by a girlfriend one still has
affection for. Yes, there is an element of liberation involved, but
you don't exactly feel like celebrating that fact at the time.
But in a fair contest as to who enjoys the least constraints on their
thinking, I think they have the edge. Yes, religions are dogmatic
about what you must believe, but religionists can shop around for the
dogma they like. And once snugly ensconced within their comfy world
of miracles and magic, there are no bounds on the possible and there's
nothing to restrain their credulity. They are not merely capable of
belief in the undetectable, they are capable of total certainty. To
live in reason is to give all that up. You sacrifice every certainty
except the knowledge that you are fallible. You do the hard work of
imposing rational discipline on your thoughts, even when that leads
you to unpleasant conclusions, and even then you may still have to do
more work on your conclusions later. But I can't envy them. Setting
the cruise control on your van and going into the back to make a
sandwich, letting the van romp across the countryside where it will,
would be a "freer" way to drive, and it might even be a more
exhilarating way, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good way.

You know, many of them say they pity us. They don't know what pity is...

Some of them do. And I don't mind if some of them feel pained for me
for my godlessness. With those people, it is only they who suffer.
The ones I mind are the ones who feel a scornful, contemptuous,
smugly-superior and patronizing sort of pity for me. Those tend to be
the ones who feel it is their right and duty to meddle in my affairs
and save me in spite of myself.

I feel sorry for them.

That's certainly your prerogative, but I think the pain you feel in
sympathy for them is a pain they do not feel themselves.

Perhaps that's why I don't take much delight in verbal combat here on
Usenet. In many ways, flaming visiting theists is much like beating a
puppy that just whizzed on the rug. Most of them don't know any better
and they don't understand why they are being punished.

There are some who wander in here out of total naivete, and that's an
excellent reason to check your targets, and maybe even to nudge a few
of the lambs towards the door. But for those who are looking for
combat, or even just something to alleviate boredom, I feel no pangs
about giving them what they want. As the saying goes, be careful what
you wish for...
Kronk
.

User: "William Boutwell"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	01 Sep 2003 07:00:11 PM

(Kronk) wrote in news:3f539d10.18019861@news.gvtc.com:

Sorry I winked out for a bit. My ISP is having problems.

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:21:07 GMT, William Boutwell
<dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:

(Kronk) wrote in news:3f510148.14182863@news.gvtc.com:

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:55:01 GMT, William Boutwell
<dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote:

<...>

Eventually, you've done so many things that are silly or ridiculous,
told yourself so many lies that your honesty has become satire.

Then comes the day when you have to reclaim your integrity for your
own sake, or discard it for the sake of others.

Okay, perhaps I should have written a couple more lines in that
paragraph, but I was writing for effect and it seemed right at the
time to stop where I did. I do believe, however, that many people
cling to their faith despite their doubts, genuinely afraid of the
effects it will have on others if they give it up.

No, you were pointing out, quite rightly, that I hadn't considered the
idea fully enough.
I've learned something and that's always useful.

My deconversion was simple compared to that of many - it came to me in
a flash of insight that I'd been lied to and was lying to myself about
the religion I'd been raised to trust. At 13 I didn't have the long
term emotional involvement that older apostates have to deal with.

Still, I kept my mouth shut about my discovery. Even then I knew the
stigma that would attach should I tell others that I just didn't
believe the stories any longer.

I can only guess how much more difficult such revelation is for
someone who spent much more of their life as a believer than I.

I probably did land with a harder bump as a result of falling out
later, but I don't wish I could have fallen out earlier, or wish, as
is the case for some here, that I'd never believed at all. Had I
fallen out earlier, I think I would have felt resentment towards the
people who told me falsehoods, but having spent some time telling the
stories to others myself, I can't feel any grudge--at least not
without condemning myself.

I'm actually happy I got to spend some time on the other side of the
looking glass, not only for the feelings of joy and amazement that I
got to experience while I was there, but also for now being able to
see a number of issues from two different perspectives. One of those
perspectives is fading over the years, so it isn't quite as good as
having stereoscopic vision, but I can still remember how I felt and
imagine how I would have responded to a given situation as a believer
if I work at it. I don't think having two perspectives gives me that
much more insight into what I'm observing, but it gives me more
insight into me. I feel like I'm in a better position to judge which
perspective makes more sense, having had a solid experience of both.

Yes, and I lack that perspective.
This will remind me to try to be a bit more thoughtful next time I decide
to have a go at expressing myself.
Like I've said, sometimes I have a bit of scatter-gun in my approach to
thinking. A bit more concentration won't hurt anything.

Many Christians accuse we atheists of choosing the easy path.

They couldn't possibly imagine how wrong they are. They don't know
how painful facing the facts can be.

They'll never know freedom, either.

They feel the same way about us. I know I didn't feel trapped until
the very end. I just felt like I was where I wanted to be, and my
faith made it possible for me to be there. It wasn't until there was
a conflict between my faith and the direction I was moving that I felt
any force of restraint at all. I suspect it's a lot like being in a
relationship. You only feel trapped when you are in a bad
relationship. In my case, I didn't get to enjoy any great feeling of
liberation as a result of falling out of faith because my faith was
still important to me when I simply lost it. It probably felt about
as liberating for me as getting dumped by a girlfriend one still has
affection for. Yes, there is an element of liberation involved, but
you don't exactly feel like celebrating that fact at the time.

But in a fair contest as to who enjoys the least constraints on their
thinking, I think they have the edge. Yes, religions are dogmatic
about what you must believe, but religionists can shop around for the
dogma they like. And once snugly ensconced within their comfy world
of miracles and magic, there are no bounds on the possible and there's
nothing to restrain their credulity. They are not merely capable of
belief in the undetectable, they are capable of total certainty. To
live in reason is to give all that up. You sacrifice every certainty
except the knowledge that you are fallible. You do the hard work of
imposing rational discipline on your thoughts, even when that leads
you to unpleasant conclusions, and even then you may still have to do
more work on your conclusions later. But I can't envy them. Setting
the cruise control on your van and going into the back to make a
sandwich, letting the van romp across the countryside where it will,
would be a "freer" way to drive, and it might even be a more
exhilarating way, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good way.

You know, this is the sort of thing I read alt.athiesm for. Because I
was so young, had so little of the conditioning to throw off, I really
didn't know just how profoundly important theist belief could become and
how really, terribly difficult it could be to overcome.
Between you and Sunny I've learned quite a bit in this thread. I'm
really glad ol' whatsisname started it. I wonder where he got off to?
It's not the first time a thread has been hijacked 'round here <grinning
broadly>

You know, many of them say they pity us. They don't know what pity
is...

I've not met too many of those, and the ones I have tend to drift off
after a few moments of conversation. Sometimes I just smile at them,
listening carefully to what they say before replying.
It seems odd, but people who want to discuss their religion with you
don't much like it when you discuss their religion with them from an
outsider's perspective.
Atheism really is a foreign country to these folks. They don't know the
language or even a proper definition for the term.
My youngest sister still thinks I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist.
I think it's because I tell her I don't believe gods are real, rather
than that I don't think gods exist at all. For some reason, to her
that's a sufficient difference between agnosticism and atheism. We've
had a few lively discussions, but neither of us makes much of a dent in
the other's opionions.
She did try the old "if men are descended from apes, why are there still
apes?" chestnut on me.
She also tried Pascal's wager. When I told her that her God would know I
only believed because I made a bet with my little sister, she sort of let
that one go.
We've since reached a sort of gentlemen's agreement. Politics is okay,
but religion is verboten as a topic of discussion.

I feel sorry for them.

That's certainly your prerogative, but I think the pain you feel in
sympathy for them is a pain they do not feel themselves.

You know, that's right. I didn't consider that my empathy was kicking in
here.
I do feel for people - perhaps that's why I don't get close to many other
folks. But your observation is quite illuminating.
I hadn't considered that fully. Thank you for pointing it out.

Perhaps that's why I don't take much delight in verbal combat here on
Usenet. In many ways, flaming visiting theists is much like beating a
puppy that just whizzed on the rug. Most of them don't know any
better and they don't understand why they are being punished.

Oh well, I'll probably never become a BAAWA Knight. My heart's just not
in it.
--
Dale.
aa #1969
"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.", Mark Twain
.

User: "Buddy"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	02 Sep 2003 12:20:06 PM

William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93E9CB9C8C2A2dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.8>...

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f539d10.18019861@news.gvtc.com:

<much needed snip>
Well, I'm not sure if you and Kronk are done with this meandering,
blithering, "I used to be a 'Christian' but I got better"
pontification, keystroke marathon, and group hug, but I think I'll go
ahead and butt in anyway ...
You both rejected a system of belief and tradition. Yippee for you.
You gave all kinds of silly reasons for not rejecting it that most
true Christians wouldn't even think about or imagine. You know what
we think about? We think about Jesus. We don't think about a "what"
-- doctrine, tradition, etc. -- we think about a "who" -- Jesus. He
is the core of the Christian religion. True Christians have a
relationship with Him.
Rejecting the church, the doctrine, the traditions -- all that window
dressing -- is not the issue for us. We love Jesus. He loves us. We
could never walk away from that.
You rejected a religion. Big deal. I know lots of folks who rejected
that same sort of dead religion when they found Jesus.
We have a little basket of plastic fruit that we use as a decoration
at our house. If you grabbed a couple of grapes from that basket and
ate them, you might come to the conclusion that all grapes taste
pretty lousy and aren't good to eat. Of course, you'd be wrong. Just
as you are wrong about Jesus.
"Taste and see that the Lord is good. Blessed is the one who takes
refuge in Him." (Psalm 34:8).
There's lots of plastic Jesuses out there. It's easy to think that's
what the true Jesus is like. It's hard to know the difference until
you find the real one. Too bad you've stopped looking ...
Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com
.

User: "William Boutwell"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	02 Sep 2003 04:32:02 PM

(Buddy) wrote in
news:607783e2.0309020920.3090d777@posting.google.com:

William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns93E9CB9C8C2A2dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.8>...

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f539d10.18019861@news.gvtc.com:

Hell, Buddy, you started the thread, so knock yourself out. I doubt
you'll last any longer than most of the Christian proselytizers that
frequent aa for brief periods.
Before you start throwing the "pontification" word around, check your eye
for the log that's there.
Hypocrite.

You both rejected a system of belief and tradition. Yippee for you.
You gave all kinds of silly reasons for not rejecting it that most
true Christians wouldn't even think about or imagine. You know what
we think about? We think about Jesus. We don't think about a "what"
-- doctrine, tradition, etc. -- we think about a "who" -- Jesus. He
is the core of the Christian religion. True Christians have a
relationship with Him.

How do you recognize a "True Christian?"
If you can see into the hearts and minds of your fellow beings, you've
certainly got a lot to teach the world, Buddy.
Tell me, do "True Christians" put sugar on their porridge?

Rejecting the church, the doctrine, the traditions -- all that window
dressing -- is not the issue for us. We love Jesus. He loves us. We
could never walk away from that.

You rejected a religion. Big deal. I know lots of folks who rejected
that same sort of dead religion when they found Jesus.

Buddy, you know nothing about me, and yet you are making some pretty
wicked generalizations here. How do you know the religion I escaped was
dead, for instance?
You see, my sisters and I rode to the Yalaha Community Baptist Church
most Wednesday evenings and nearly every Sunday morning with the pastor
of the church and his wife.
He was a fine man, Buddy, truly the salt of the earth. He was humble,
meek, kind and charitable. He never made his living as a pastor.
In fact, until he retired he was a custodian at the local high school.
In his spare time, using much of his own money and the donations of the
members of the church, he built and rebuilt sections of the building. He
refurbished the room in the bell tower, installed restrooms, ran
electrical wiring and installed the first air-conditioning system the
church had ever had.
He visited prisons, jails, soup kitchens and always had a kind word and
good thoughts to share with anyone who'd listen to his message. If there
was ever any man who walked the walk *and* talked the talk it was the
Reverend Joseph Black.
He and his wife always regretted never having more than two children,
Buddy, so they took us under their wings and treated us as well as any
grandparents would have.
You see, their own children were grown, married and had moved out of
state before we were born.
He and his wife are gone, now. But I remember them fondly and will until
the end of my days.
If these two dear people didn't meet your definition of "True Christian",
you've got a screw or two looser than most of your sort.
The next time you want to tell me that the religion I "escaped" from was
dead, you'd better ask first. That's strike one against you.

We have a little basket of plastic fruit that we use as a decoration
at our house. If you grabbed a couple of grapes from that basket and
ate them, you might come to the conclusion that all grapes taste
pretty lousy and aren't good to eat. Of course, you'd be wrong. Just
as you are wrong about Jesus.

It's up to you to prove I'm wrong about Jesus, Buddy. I don't owe you
anything at all. You've obviously read through the posts in the thread
you started. All you have to do is start rebutting the points that were
raised in them.
Until or unless you do, you have no credibility here. That's strike two
against you.

"Taste and see that the Lord is good. Blessed is the one who takes
refuge in Him." (Psalm 34:8).

There's lots of plastic Jesuses out there. It's easy to think that's
what the true Jesus is like. It's hard to know the difference until
you find the real one. Too bad you've stopped looking ...

Sorry 'bout that Buddy, but you'll have to be a bit more specific about
the Jesus you have a relationship with.
You see, I know quite a few folks named Jesus. It's used as both a first
and last name. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a Jesus DeJesus
running around somewhere here in Florida.
If you want, I'll also tell you that it's usually a first name and
generally pronounced "HaySoose."
None of them seem to be the sort you'd think of as a savior, though.
I'll tell you what, Buddy, if you can bring any evidence to the table
other than the contradictory, inconsistent and (mostly) unattributed New
Testament to the table, I might reconsider my opinion of your version of
Jesus.
It's contradictory because it says one can only be saved by faith and
works *and* it says one can be saved by faith alone.
It's inconsistent because the gospels have different tales of Easter
happenings, not to mention differences concerning the events that occured
during the Passion.
Much of it's unattributed except by tradition. Mathew, Mark, Luke and
John are quite anonymous.
You'll have to explain why an all-knowing, all-loving and all-good God
had to sacrifice a part of himself to himself in order to forgive the
"sins" of creatures he created knowing they would turn out "bad."
You'll also have to explain why this oh-so-perfect, unchanging god
changed its mind and the plan of salvation from the old covenant to the
new covenant, without saying the Jews were wrong all along. That will
certainly be entertaining, since Christianity started as a sect of
Judaism.
As far as I can tell, Buddy, you have a "personal relationship" with a
figment of your own imagination. Actually, it's worse than that - you
have a "personal relationship" with a figment of a figment of Saul of
Tarsus' imagination.
You have a "personal relationship" with a pastiche of pagan deities and
Greek thought.
At least when Kronk and I are swapping anecdotes we're talking to real
beings.
Run along, Buddy. You've nothing to say that I haven't heard before from
people I know and love.
You've managed to unconsciously insult the memory of two people I loved
deeply and sincerely. You've attempted to insult me, but I don't allow
that sort of thing to occur, especially not from a hypocrite.
That's strike three, Buddy. Too bad.
--
Dale.
aa #1969
"Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.", Mark Twain
.

User: "stillsunny"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	02 Sep 2003 06:35:39 PM

(Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0309020920.3090d777@posting.google.com>...

William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93E9CB9C8C2A2dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.8>...

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f539d10.18019861@news.gvtc.com:

Blithering?

You both rejected a system of belief and tradition. Yippee for you.

Your comments are rude and presumptuous.
You don't know what they believe, nor why they believe it.
Secondly, people believe what they believe -- all of them, including
you -- for reasons which make sense to them, but which may or may not
make sense to other people. Being nasty because people have had
different life experiences than you, which have led them in a
different direction, is ridiculous, albeit revealing.
I'm not sure what your purpose is for posting to alt.atheism, but if
it's to demean, ridicule, mock, or be a jerk, then I'd have to ask
what sort of representative you think you are for Christianity. If
it's to attempt to persuade, perhaps you might try "How to Win Friends
and Influence People." Perhaps you're here to cement a preconceived
notion regarding atheists, and by being as antagonistic as you are,
you hope to elicit flaming responses to justify your bias. If that's
the case, I'd wager you'll succeed. Kudos.

You gave all kinds of silly reasons for not rejecting it that most
true Christians wouldn't even think about or imagine.

How do you know?
I'm snipping the "no true Christian" argument. There are a zillion
varieties of it.
Sunny
.

User: "Buddy"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	03 Sep 2003 08:23:13 AM

(stillsunny) wrote in message news:<c472f5b5.0309021535.7ab5d5a5@posting.google.com>...

buddy@EngineersGuideToGod.com (Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0309020920.3090d777@posting.google.com>...

William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93E9CB9C8C2A2dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.8>...

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f539d10.18019861@news.gvtc.com:

Blithering?

You both rejected a system of belief and tradition. Yippee for you.

Your comments are rude and presumptuous.
You don't know what they believe, nor why they believe it.

Secondly, people believe what they believe -- all of them, including
you -- for reasons which make sense to them, but which may or may not
make sense to other people. Being nasty because people have had
different life experiences than you, which have led them in a
different direction, is ridiculous, albeit revealing.

I'm not sure what your purpose is for posting to alt.atheism, but if
it's to demean, ridicule, mock, or be a jerk, then I'd have to ask
what sort of representative you think you are for Christianity. If
it's to attempt to persuade, perhaps you might try "How to Win Friends
and Influence People." Perhaps you're here to cement a preconceived
notion regarding atheists, and by being as antagonistic as you are,
you hope to elicit flaming responses to justify your bias. If that's
the case, I'd wager you'll succeed. Kudos.

You gave all kinds of silly reasons for not rejecting it that most
true Christians wouldn't even think about or imagine.

How do you know?

I'm snipping the "no true Christian" argument. There are a zillion
varieties of it.

Sunny

Hi Sunny,
Sorry I offended you. I guess I thought all of ya'll were as thick
skinned as you typically expect me to be. Perhaps I was wrong about
that.
You asked me why I'm here -- that's a valid question. I originally
began posting to this group about a year ago because I wanted to see
what non-Christians thought of my little pamphlet, The Engineers'
Guide To God. Not too many people thought highly of it here, but
their comments were very helpful (although not always very polite!).
Nowadays, I read your postings often, but seldom post -- mostly
because nothing has caught my interest. I kinda missed debating with
you guys (and gals). So, I decided to start something. I made two
attempts. This one seems to have caught some interest. The other one
went over like a lead zeppelin.
So, anyway, that's why I'm here -- not to change your thinking or
beliefs, but just to debate 'em with you. I enjoy it. I doubt I'll
convert you, and you'll never convert me (it's hard to argue
successfully with someone who believes by faith). But, you challenge
my thinking and you challenge my faith. That's good exercise for
both. Mostly, I just like talking/posting with folks who are
intelligent, articulate, and yet don't agree with me. I live in the
Bible belt. Most of my friends are Christians -- or at least church
folk. It's like having vanilla ice cream every day. It's good, but
some tutti-frutti is nice every now and then, too!
So, think of yourselves as the tutti-frutti in the ice cream bowl of
my life! heh heh
Changing the subject ...
Sorry that I don't have time to reply to Kronk and the rest of you --
we're off to the hospital to have our second kid (planned C-section).
I'll try to get back to you in a couple of days. Until then, just ...
ummm ... talk amongst yourselves!
Buddy
www.EngineersGuideToGod.com
.

User: "stillsunny"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	03 Sep 2003 01:06:19 PM

(Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0309030523.3e20ecb@posting.google.com>...

stillsunny1@yahoo.com (stillsunny) wrote in message news:<c472f5b5.0309021535.7ab5d5a5@posting.google.com>...

(Buddy) wrote in message news:<607783e2.0309020920.3090d777@posting.google.com>...

William Boutwell <dale-b@cfl.rrr.com> wrote in message news:<Xns93E9CB9C8C2A2dalebcflrrrcom@65.32.1.8>...

void@isp.com (Kronk) wrote in news:3f539d10.18019861@news.gvtc.com:

Blithering?

You both rejected a system of belief and tradition. Yippee for you.

Your comments are rude and presumptuous.
You don't know what they believe, nor why they believe it.

<snip>
Your orders are to make sure Mom is as comfortable as possible; pillow
under her feet, cool drink beside her, TV remote in her hand.
Congratulations, by the way.
Then...

Hi Sunny,

Sorry I offended you. I guess I thought all of ya'll were as thick
skinned as you typically expect me to be. Perhaps I was wrong about
that.

No offense, but you were wrong about a couple of things.
I'm not an atheist, Buddy, in the first place.
And yes, I was offended -- for a couple of reasons.
First, the people you wrote such snide comments to are people I've
grown to respect a great deal. We don't agree on everything
(obviously) but when we do, it gives me pause.
Secondly, I'm offended because most of my friends are Christians, too.
They're good, decent people, and the lot of them tend to get
represented on this forum by a large number of Christians who post
apparently for the joy of being as offensive as possible to people
they don't know. And then there are those who begin so civilly, with
such a friendly manner, and who rapidly deteriorate to sarcasm. Sort
of like I saw this thread doing.
And those good, decent people I know are poorly represented by that
sort of behavior.
<snip>

So, anyway, that's why I'm here -- not to change your thinking or
beliefs, but just to debate 'em with you. I enjoy it.

Then might I (really civilly) suggest that you reread what you've
written before you send it, and see how it corresponds to the avowed
goal of loving God and loving neighbor, and the desire for debate
rather than flame.
You're on an atheist newsgroup. You're a guest. There are going to
be those who flame you just because you're a Christian, but in the
main, it's a good mirror. What you offer will be what you receive,
not much differently than the reverse works on theist newsgroups.
Sunny
.

User: "Mike Smith"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	04 Sep 2003 09:39:13 PM

(stillsunny) wrote:
--snip--
=You're on an atheist newsgroup. You're a guest.
=There are going to be those who flame you just because
=you're a Christian, but in the main, it's a good mirror.
=What you offer will be what you receive, not much
=differently than the reverse works on theist newsgroups.
I found this:
momkulio@yahoo.ca (Jayne Kulikauskas) wrote:
A Theist's Guide to alt.atheism
Advice to theists from a theist.
If you are coming to a.a to preach or convert people, forget it.
It does not work. It only antagonizes people so that they are
even less open to your message. If you think that you have
something to say that they have not heard before, you are
probably acting from pride. This may be a sin in your religion.
On the other hand, perhaps you have encountered an atheist
posting elsewhere who intrigued you. Perhaps something has
aroused your curiosity about atheism and you want to learn
more. This is a good thing and this can be a good place to
pursue your questions.
There is a weekly mini-FAQ. Read it. It has links to the full
FAQ. Read it too. This also links you to an essay on logical
arguments and fallacies. Read this as many times as it takes
to memorize it. There will be a test.
Lurk for a while before posting. Because this is such a high
traffic group, it can be hard to get a feel for who the people
are. Something that helps me is using a Google usenet
search to find many posts by the same author. Learn to think
of atheists as individuals with distinct personalities rather than
a faceless stereotyped "them".
The mini-FAQ says that theists are welcome here if they do
not preach. This is true of the majority of atheists here. There
are some exceptions and you will likely encounter hostility at
some point even if you behave appropriately. Brace yourself.
If you are a member of a religion that tells you to turn the other
cheek, do so.
You may notice certain threads marked as being for atheists
only and issues coming up for votes from which you, as a
theist, are excluded. You might feel that you are being treated
as a second-class citizen. Think of it as a learning experience.
Some atheists describe feeling that they are treated that way
in real life and this provides an opportunity to better understand
their feelings.
(There is a theory that oppressed minorities become oppressors
when given the opportunity (the modern state of Israel is
sometimes given as an example of this) because that is the
only relationship they know. This may be analogous to the
situation here. Because atheists tend to be targets of hostility
and exclusion in Western culture, these elements become
incorporated into the atheist newsgroup culture.)
If you are open to it, you are likely to find yourself liking and
respecting some of the atheists here. There are some very
fine people in a.a. Be cautious about becoming emotionally
attached to atheists who see belief in gods as actively harmful,
especially if your feelings are easily hurt. It is easier to be
friends with atheists who just want to be left in peace to
believe or not as they see fit.
__________________________________________
��
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
��
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall
not pass, till all these things be done." - Mark 13:30
.

User: "Mike Smith"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	03 Sep 2003 03:08:17 PM

(Buddy) wrote:
--snip--
=I doubt I'll convert you, and you'll never convert me (it's
=hard to argue successfully with someone who believes
=by faith).
You may as well come right out and admit that reason
plays very little part in your worldview.
__________________________________________
��
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
��
"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall
not pass, till all these things be done." - Mark 13:30
.

User: "John Popelish"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	03 Sep 2003 10:05:29 AM

Buddy wrote:
(snip)
Butting in...

So, anyway, that's why I'm here -- not to change your thinking or
beliefs, but just to debate 'em with you. I enjoy it. I doubt I'll
convert you, and you'll never convert me (it's hard to argue
successfully with someone who believes by faith).

That is exactly the problem, in a nut shell. You come here wanting us
to debate. But you have no intention of debating your side of
anything. You want atheists to express polite and logical
explanations for their side, but you, in your absolute certainty that
is not based on reason, have nothing to contribute but assertions.
Why do you imagine anyone would have any enthusiasm for constructing
reasoned arguments when faced with such a cement headed stance? Oh,
wait. I have asked you to consider if your position is reasonable.
Never mind.

But, you challenge
my thinking and you challenge my faith. That's good exercise for
both. Mostly, I just like talking/posting with folks who are
intelligent, articulate, and yet don't agree with me. I live in the
Bible belt. Most of my friends are Christians -- or at least church
folk. It's like having vanilla ice cream every day. It's good, but
some tutti-frutti is nice every now and then, too!

So, think of yourselves as the tutti-frutti in the ice cream bowl of
my life! heh heh

Yea. Debate, my *****.

Changing the subject ...

Sorry that I don't have time to reply to Kronk and the rest of you --
we're off to the hospital to have our second kid (planned C-section).
I'll try to get back to you in a couple of days. Until then, just ...
ummm ... talk amongst yourselves!

I hope that your child is healthy and becomes wise.
Then you might end up in a tutti-frutti debate with them.
--
John Popelish
.

User: "Barry OGrady"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	05 Sep 2003 09:22:55 PM

There is no known meaning of life. We must make our own.
-Barry
========
Web page: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~barry.og
Atheist, radio scanner, LIPD information.
Voicemail/fax number +14136227640
.

User: "Kronk"
Title: Re: I'm Bored -- Let's Debate Something ... Purpose In Life ...	03 Sep 2003 05:44:23 PM

On 3 Sep 2003 06:23:13 -0700,

(Buddy)
wrote:
<...>

I guess I thought all of ya'll were as thick
skinned as you typically expect me to be.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the purpose of debates. Ideally,
they are a competition between ideas and perspectives, not between
people. The people are only there to act as advocates on behalf of
their positions. It's the participants' job to marshal the best
arguments for their positions they can, and to point out the most
serious deficiencies in the competing positions they can find. In an
ideal world, the participants would all have equal skill and would be
able to discharge their function as advocates dispassionately. This
being a less-than-ideal world, we have to expect some unevenness in
skill and some emotional involvement, and a little bit of teasing
banter is to be expected and can even liven up the process. But to
shift into full-frontal, personal attacks on individuals on the other
side only signals that you are running short on arguments for your
side and that you would like to move the debate away from a fair and
rational comparison of positions--presumably because you are running
short on confidence that your position will fare well in such a
comparison. In showing your lack of confidence, you become a poor
advocate.
You needn't worry for my sake that I'll be hurt by any disparagement
you care to hurl at me. It won't hurt me a bit. The only injury it
will do is to your credibility.

You asked me why I'm here -- that's a valid question. I originally
began posting to this group about a year ago because I wanted to see
what non-Christians thought of my little pamphlet, The Engineers'
Guide To God.

It is a skimpy and seemingly perfunctory treatment of arguments for
the existence of a god in general, and the Christian God in
particular, all of which have been done much better before, and all of
which have been thoroughly demolished before. Your arguments would
seem good to those who are already Christian--and who thus don't need
them--and they are not at all rationally compelling for anyone else.

Not too many people thought highly of it here, but
their comments were very helpful (although not always very polite!).

The lack of politeness is due to impatience. You are just one more in
a very long line of people to trot out these flimsy and defeated
arguments. You obviously didn't do your homework, and then you ask
for an evaluation when we already know it is just a ploy to get us to
read something you mistakenly thought might impress us. My suggestion
to you would be that you give up on trying to rationally justify that
which you believe on the basis of faith. You will not succeed, and no
good will come of it.

The debate is a success when all involved have done a good job of
advocating for their positions. Those watching the debate can decide
for themselves which position was best supported by reason. If the
person advocating for the less-reasonable position will not abandon it
for a more reasonable position, that's his or her prerogative.

But, you challenge my thinking and you challenge my fait