| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Voice of Truth" |
| Date: |
14 Oct 2004 04:28:10 PM |
| Object: |
Imagine A World Without God |
A World Without God
a condensed version of the sermon delivered by Rev. Neal Sadler on
Sunday, August 1, 2004 at St. Matthew United Church of Christ,
Wheaton, Illinois
Today's Scripture Readings are:
Ecclesiastes 1:1-14; 2:18-25
Today's Scripture is from a book of the Bible that is not commonly
preached from. It is from Ecclesiastes, a book accredited to Solomon,
part of the wisdom literature of the Old Testament. Ecclesiastes is a
troubling, disturbing book for Christian to read. It seems so
pessimistic, a secular book that offers such little hope. It is
perhaps best known for the beautiful words of the third chapter, "For
everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under
heaven; a time to be born, and a time to die, a time to plant and time
to pluck up what is planted. . ." Most of the book, though, seems
dreary, talking about vanity, what we might call futility or
worthlessness.
Let us hear selections from the first couple chapters.
(read)
Will you imagine with me a world without God . . . a world without
God. Everything would be the same, except that there would be no God.
We would have the beautiful mountains and rivers and streams, the
fields of harvest, the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, all the
wonderful diverse animals that roam our planet. Everything that we can
see and touch and feel and smell will be here, but that is all. That
which we cannot know through our five sense or through reason or
scientific investigation would not exist.
Imagine that the universe began 15 billion years ago with a big bang,
and has evolved into what we see today with no divine intervention or
direction, and all will continue to evolve with no divine
intervention. The world will simply complete its course to eventual
disintegration some billions of years in the future. A world without
God. What would it be like?
I think this is what the author of Ecclesiastes is doing here, looking
at life from a completely secular view, from the view that God does
not exist or if God does exist, God has absented himself from the
world forever. Strip away the false fantasies and dreams that we human
beings have about the existence of a God, a God who is active in this
world and cares about you and me. Instead, look at the stark reality
of life as it would be without the make-believe and the idle wishes
about heaven and eternity and immortality. What is the meaning of life
in such a world? The Preacher, the author of Ecclesiastes, says very
simply, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity! A chasing after the wind."
Again, this is not the kind of Scripture passage we like to hear. The
words are not of comfort or hope or love, but words of disillusionment
and despair, words that deal with the futility of living day in and
day out. Later, he writes, "And I thought the dead, who have already
died, more fortunate than the living, who are still alive, but better
than both is the one who has not yet been, and has not seen the evil
deeds that are done under the sun." Wow! This guy will take the wind
out of anyone sails.
Life is a pain, the author says. It's a pain because there is a lot of
suffering and work. Even more so, life is a pain because from the
moment a person is born, he or she is under a sentence of death. No
matter how good or bad, how rich or poor, how smart or dumb, all end
up the same place -- the grave, if there is no God. Again, the words
of Ecclesiastes, "All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all
turn to dust again." That's a world without God
It's not that the author, again who is traditionally identified as
Solomon, did not seek happiness. He did. He sought happiness with a
gusto unmatched by few. He sought it by pursuing pleasure, the good
things in life -- gold, silver, big houses, slaves, singers and
dancers, but he confesses, it was all vanity, a chasing after the
wind. He tried to find happiness in wisdom. It was better. But in the
end he confesses, "what happens to the fool will happen also to me;
why then have I been so wise?" All efforts to find meaning and joy are
doomed. A death sentence awaits us all. There is no avoiding it.
There is an old Peanuts comic strip where Lucy asks Charlie Brown if
he has ever known anybody who was truly happy. Before she can finish
her sentence, in comes who else but Snoopy dancing on tiptoes, his
nose pointed to the sky as if he were floating on air. Lucy then
repeats her question with a little addendum, "have you ever known
anyone who was truly happy and still in their right mind?"
Now, I know there are those who live and give no thought about God and
seem happy. And many of them are good people. They care deeply about
the welfare of all humanity. They strive for justice. They preserve
the environment. They thirst for knowledge . . . but they do not
believe in God. To them life ends in the grave --no heaven, no soul
that lives on through eternity. The meaning they receive comes from
creating a better world for future generations. The author of
Ecclesiastes would respond, "That's very noble, but why waste the
effort. Your hope is a futile hope. Every future generation will end
up like your generation, dust to dust, ashes to ashes. Spare yourself
the pain. You, too, like those who believe in God, are living a
disillusion. Your life, too, is full of vanity."
Can a life without God, a world without God, a world that does not
transcend the limitations of time and space, of energy and mass,
really bring happiness?
We spent a couple weeks in Switzerland on this trip. Switzerland is a
wonderful place. The scenery is beautiful. The streets are clean.
Everything runs efficiently. Health care is excellent. The people care
deeply about physical fitness and time for rest and relaxation. They
hike in the beautiful hills, ride their bikes, sail their boats. It is
basically a secular society, but they legislate a Sabbath, a day of
rest. Stores are closed. Factories shut down. No one works on Sundays.
It's even illegal to mow your lawn. We couldn't use the washing
machine. Switzerland is a beautiful, beautiful place with a standard
of living that probably exceeds the United States. They don't have the
poverty we have here. It seems to be a wonderful, almost idyllic place
to live.
I preached one Sunday evening at the International Protestant Church
of Zurich. The pastor of the church showed me around the Reformation
sites of Zurich prior to the service -- the church and statue and home
and study of Ulrich Zwingli, the leader of the Reformed branch of the
Reformation, in which the church that I grew up in has its roots. I
asked him what was different about serving in Zurich, voted for the
third year in a row the #1 best city in the whole world in which to
live. He startled me when he said that he has a lot more funerals for
suicide victims in Zurich than he ever had before, usually young Swiss
men and women. "More suicides in Zurich," I asked, "this beautiful,
prosperous city?" "Yes," he said, "people are really struggling for
meaning."
A couple days later, we were shown around the beautiful city and
canton of Berne, where my ancestors came from. Again, a seemingly
wonderful place to live. The old part of the city is high on a hill
above the Arne River. Next to the big church in the center of town is
a large patio area. There's a huge steep cliff from this patio area
toward the river. When I looked down I noticed that about twenty feet
below the railing was a netting along the entire cliff. I asked the
gracious Swiss man who was our friend and guide for the day what it
was for. The purpose: to catch people when they jumped, so they
wouldn't be able to commit suicide there.
These suicides were very different from the ones that occurred at the
Dachau concentration camp outside of Munich, where prisoners with no
hope, doomed to a life of hard labor, torture, starvation and misery
threw themselves against the high voltage barbed wire fence along the
perimeter putting a sudden ending to their pain and suffering. These
were young people living amidst one of the most affluent societies the
world has ever known.
It's not that Christians don't sometimes commit suicide, they do at
times. But I think these suicides in Switzerland maybe reflect the
emptiness of people in a world of material prosperity but no God, a
world where meaning is found in financial success, physical fitness
and the like, but not in a relationship with God, the kind of world
that the Book of Ecclesiastes talks about in our Scripture lesson.
Ecclesiastes imagined a world without God, a world in which most of us
would not want to live. Now, let's try to imagine a world in which
God, God as described in all of his fullness in the Scriptures, a God
of justice and righteousness, a God of compassion and mercy and
forgiveness and love, a God revealed in the life, death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, a God who is alive and well and caring
for the world that He created. Imagine a world in which God reigns,
God revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't mean the world
created by the feeble and often mistaken attempts by well-meaning
Christians. But a world that truly reflects the fullness of the gospel
message where love and justice, mercy and righteousness can flourish.
Imagine that kind of world. Would you want to live in that kind of
world? I would, and I guess that you would too.
I can't prove to you that this world of goodness and peace is the
world that truly exists, that this is reality and not the world that
is described in Ecclesiastes. Faith is so very necessary. I can't
prove to you without a shadow of doubt that there is a personal,
loving and just God who cares very much for you and for this world
that he created. Faith is necessary. I confess, though, that this is
the world that I proclaim to you on Sunday mornings. And I do so not
out of wishful thinking, I don't think, nor because this is the way I
would to see the world, but because this is what I truly believe the
world is like.
And I believe these things, I think (others may disagree with me) as a
sane, rational human beings. For I believe that if we, as sane,
rational human beings, look about us at this world and see its order
and beauty, and look at ourselves and listen to the voices within us,
and look at history and see the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, and
look at the live of others and how their lives have been touched, I
believe that we as sane, rational people will discover that this world
that we imagine, this world with a personal, caring God as revealed in
God's Son Jesus Christ is indeed the truth, the real world.
I think that we -- with full confidence and assurance -- can be a
people of hope, a people confident of the truth of God, the truth
about ourselves. And, being confident in that truth, I think we can
forget all those false places we sometimes go looking for meaning. We
can lay aside the many things that entice us away from God and find in
the Lord the meaning that we truly seek.
http://www.stmatthew-ucc.org/sermon-AWorldWithoutGod.htm
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| User: "The other Donald" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 10:34:52 PM |
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"Voice of Truth" <voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com...
A World Without God
We've already got one. It's called reality, and you're welcome to join us.
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 09:17:31 PM |
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"Voice of Truth" <voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com...
A World Without God
I already live in a world without God. I don't have to imagine it. What I'd
*like* to live in is a world without superstitious fools who believe in such
nonsense.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 11:14:31 PM |
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John Baker wrote:
"Voice of Truth" <voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com...
A World Without God
I already live in a world without God. I don't have to imagine it. What I'd
*like* to live in is a world without superstitious fools who believe in such
nonsense.
I'd like to be along with yer' but i guess we will have to put up with it!
Bob
Hong Kong
Blessed is the self righteous xtian,
for his is the sure and certain knowledge
that no matter what load of tripe he
comes out with: God told him to say it.
[Puck Greenman]
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 06:20:01 AM |
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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:416F4EA7.C7B3F256@netvigator.com...
John Baker wrote:
"Voice of Truth" <voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com...
A World Without God
I already live in a world without God. I don't have to imagine it. What
I'd
*like* to live in is a world without superstitious fools who believe in
such
nonsense.
I'd like to be along with yer' but i guess we will have to put up with it!
Yep. I don't see religion going belly up in my lifetime.
Bob
Hong Kong
Blessed is the self righteous xtian,
for his is the sure and certain knowledge
that no matter what load of tripe he
comes out with: God told him to say it.
[Puck Greenman]
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| User: "HaRDWiR3D" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 06:27:09 PM |
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"Voice of Truth" <voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com...
A World Without God
a world w/o god? damn, if only god would give me a single wish....
such a world isnt a world, its utopia. no more fundi wars, no more asses
opposing science.
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| User: "Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 04:51:44 AM |
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(Voice of Truth) astounded us with:
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com:
A World Without God
What, like THIS one...
--
Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://forums.clickhalah.com/index.php
Remove "s" to respond
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 06:36:35 PM |
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(Voice of Truth) wrote in
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com:
Subject: Imagine A World Without God
....or a world without you, Ray. I'll settle for either one.
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
The Fundamentalist
== Knows no greater joy than the sound of his own voice.
== Knows no greater terror than the god he creates in his own image.
== Knows no greater evil than an unfettered mind.
== Knows no greater blasphemy than being told "NO."
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| User: "Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 06:40:23 PM |
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Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> astounded us with:
news:Xns9582BDC0A8C72askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18:
voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com (Voice of Truth) wrote in
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com:
Subject: Imagine A World Without God
...or a world without you, Ray. I'll settle for either one.
***** that Doc!, Demand both!
--
Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://forums.clickhalah.com/index.php
Remove "s" to respond
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 07:05:43 PM |
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"Phÿltêr" <Phÿltêr@hsotmail.com> wrote in
news:ckpn57$9t8$1@news-02.connect.com.au:
Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> astounded us
with: news:Xns9582BDC0A8C72askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18:
voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com (Voice of Truth) wrote in
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com:
Subject: Imagine A World Without God
...or a world without you, Ray. I'll settle for either one.
***** that Doc!, Demand both!
We already have the one. I want the other :)
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
The Fundamentalist
== Knows no greater joy than the sound of his own voice.
== Knows no greater terror than the god he creates in his own image.
== Knows no greater evil than an unfettered mind.
== Knows no greater blasphemy than being told "NO."
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| User: "Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
16 Oct 2004 01:32:07 AM |
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Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> astounded us with:
news:Xns9583C27C45E03askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18:
"Phÿltêr" <Phÿltêr@hsotmail.com> wrote in
news:ckpn57$9t8$1@news-02.connect.com.au:
Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> astounded us
with: news:Xns9582BDC0A8C72askifyouwantit@216.77.188.18:
voiceoftruth227@hotmail.com (Voice of Truth) wrote in
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com:
Subject: Imagine A World Without God
...or a world without you, Ray. I'll settle for either one.
***** that Doc!, Demand both!
We already have the one. I want the other :)
We ALL do!!
--
Phÿltêr
AA#1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
http://forums.clickhalah.com/index.php
Remove "s" to respond
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 08:56:23 PM |
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(Voice of Truth) wrote in
news:816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com:
[snip]
Imagine that the universe began 15 billion years ago with a big bang,
and has evolved into what we see today with no divine intervention or
direction, and all will continue to evolve with no divine
intervention. The world will simply complete its course to eventual
disintegration some billions of years in the future. A world without
God. What would it be like?
Let me go look out my kitchen window and see . . . it's a really cool
place.
[snip]
Can a life without God, a world without God, a world that does not
transcend the limitations of time and space, of energy and mass,
really bring happiness?
Yep. Most days it does. Today, for example. I stayed home to care for
my kindergarten daughter who was just a bit too sick to go in to school.
It was a rewarding day, a day I was glad to live.
[snip]
--
Enkidu aa 2165
That wall, embodied in the First Amendment, is perhaps
America's most important contribution to political progress
on this planet.
Lowell Weicker
Republican Senator 1971-1989
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| User: "eyelessgame" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
19 Oct 2004 12:12:14 PM |
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(Voice of Truth) wrote in message news:<816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com>...
[snip]
Can a life without God, a world without God, a world that does not
transcend the limitations of time and space, of energy and mass,
really bring happiness?
This is the question and the argument, and really it's a philosophical
point (albeit a condescending one).
This isn't an argument *for* God, of course. It's an argument for
*belief* in God. Using it as an apologetic falls victim immediately to
the argumentum ad consequentum fallacy. (Even if one accepts the
argument that "life without a god is meaningless", it only means that
if there in fact is no god, life then becomes meaningless. It does not
argue for the existence of a god. It does, however, threaten
believers with despair as a punishment for doubt.)
But let's examine the argument itself.
What it's saying, essentially, is that those who do not believe in God
might think they're happy, but they're really not, and gives as
support for this argument the fact that some people who don't believe
in a god are unhappy. It further admits that some people who believe
in a god are unhappy.
Stop right there. I don't need your condescension. I'm perfectly
capable of determining whether I'm happy.
Contemplating death is a melancholy process, of course. So is
contemplation of any other limit or loss.
But life isn't restricted to contemplation of how it ends.
I've written enough essays on this that I don't believe I need to
write another essay on hope and happiness -- search the last couple
year of alt.atheism for my handle ('eyelessgame') for what I think.
It's a powerful rhetorical tool to tell me that I can't be happy
unless I think like you do, but it's still both fallacious and rude.
If on the other hand you were to argue that *you* would be unhappy if
you thought like *I* do, I'll accept that. I certainly can't tell you
that I know better than you do about how you'd feel in a given
hypothetical situation. I don't consider your religion bad, and I
have no urge to convert you. (Unless you start telling people to go
kill other people, which some religious folks are wont to do -- please
don't do that.) But if you then go on to give invalid generalizations
about why it *must* be the case that people who think like I do are
unhappy, and to sweep away all evidence to the contrary (my own
existence, for example) as self-delusion, why then you slam the door
on reasoned discourse.
My grandmother to her dying day said of religion "It's all nonsense,
and the ones who know it the most are the preachers." I think she was
being unfair -- I think that most religious people honestly believe
what they say they believe. Yet how would you prove her wrong? If I
were to take her position, that you and all like you are merely
*pretending* faith, when you know down deep that all the claims of the
bible are just so much hooey -- but it's so deep down that you don't
realize it yourself -- you couldn't possibly disprove my claim to my
satisfaction, but wouldn't you call foul? Wouldn't you say that
that's condescending, rude, and arrogant to claim the other person is
lying about his own mind? Wouldn't you retort that I can't possibly
know your mind, or your deep truths, better than you do?
Now consider that when you tell me that deep down I must be unhappy,
but it's so deep down that I can't even tell this myself, I likewise
cry foul, and consider you condescending, rude, and arrogant. I don't
lie about my own thoughts; if you don't accept that, then we have
nothing to talk about. Thinking about death (or losses or endings in
general) is, as I said, melancholy (and Ecclesiastes is marvelous
poetry in this vein). But I have a life to live, and that life is
*not* melancholy. I don't need some other justification (gods, future
generations, reincarnation, whatever) for my life to have meaning. *I*
give it meaning. I'm at least as important to me as I am to a god, or
to future generations, or to future incarnations. I am living my
life. It has the meaning I find it to have. There are hopeless fools
out there who are driven to distraction by contemplation of their
upcoming death. But they are hopeless fools. I'm not.
eyelessgame
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| User: "Tom Spillman" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
19 Oct 2004 12:51:02 PM |
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(eyelessgame) wrote in
news:e707421e.0410190912.5873b026@posting.google.com:
Nicely put...
Tom
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 06:29:11 PM |
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===>It is already here.
Unless you are a Pantheist, in which case the world
IS "God". -- L.
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| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 03:43:41 PM |
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If you want to know what the world would be like
without god, all you need do is look around. You're
living in it.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 07:51:12 PM |
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In article <816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com> (Voice of Truth) writes:
<A World Without God
<
<
<a condensed version of the sermon delivered by Rev. Neal Sadler on
<Sunday, August 1, 2004 at St. Matthew United Church of Christ,
<Wheaton, Illinois
<
<Today's Scripture Readings are:
<Ecclesiastes 1:1-14; 2:18-25
<
<
<Today's Scripture is from a book of the Bible that is not commonly
<preached from. It is from Ecclesiastes, a book accredited to Solomon,
<part of the wisdom literature of the Old Testament. Ecclesiastes is a
<troubling, disturbing book for Christian to read. It seems so
<pessimistic, a secular book that offers such little hope. It is
<perhaps best known for the beautiful words of the third chapter, "For
<everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under
<heaven; a time to be born, and a time to die, a time to plant and time
<to pluck up what is planted. . ." Most of the book, though, seems
<dreary, talking about vanity, what we might call futility or
<worthlessness.
<
<Let us hear selections from the first couple chapters.
<
<(read)
<
<Will you imagine with me a world without God . . . a world without
<God. Everything would be the same, except that there would be no God.
<We would have the beautiful mountains and rivers and streams, the
<fields of harvest, the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, all the
<wonderful diverse animals that roam our planet. Everything that we can
<see and touch and feel and smell will be here, but that is all. That
<which we cannot know through our five sense or through reason or
<scientific investigation would not exist.
<
<Imagine that the universe began 15 billion years ago with a big bang,
<and has evolved into what we see today with no divine intervention or
<direction, and all will continue to evolve with no divine
<intervention. The world will simply complete its course to eventual
<disintegration some billions of years in the future. A world without
<God. What would it be like?
<
<I think this is what the author of Ecclesiastes is doing here, looking
<at life from a completely secular view, from the view that God does
<not exist or if God does exist, God has absented himself from the
<world forever. Strip away the false fantasies and dreams that we human
<beings have about the existence of a God, a God who is active in this
<world and cares about you and me. Instead, look at the stark reality
<of life as it would be without the make-believe and the idle wishes
<about heaven and eternity and immortality. What is the meaning of life
<in such a world? The Preacher, the author of Ecclesiastes, says very
<simply, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity! A chasing after the wind."
<
<Again, this is not the kind of Scripture passage we like to hear. The
<words are not of comfort or hope or love, but words of disillusionment
<and despair, words that deal with the futility of living day in and
<day out. Later, he writes, "And I thought the dead, who have already
<died, more fortunate than the living, who are still alive, but better
<than both is the one who has not yet been, and has not seen the evil
<deeds that are done under the sun." Wow! This guy will take the wind
<out of anyone sails.
<
<Life is a pain, the author says. It's a pain because there is a lot of
<suffering and work. Even more so, life is a pain because from the
<moment a person is born, he or she is under a sentence of death. No
<matter how good or bad, how rich or poor, how smart or dumb, all end
<up the same place -- the grave, if there is no God. Again, the words
<of Ecclesiastes, "All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all
<turn to dust again." That's a world without God
<
<It's not that the author, again who is traditionally identified as
<Solomon, did not seek happiness. He did. He sought happiness with a
<gusto unmatched by few. He sought it by pursuing pleasure, the good
<things in life -- gold, silver, big houses, slaves, singers and
<dancers, but he confesses, it was all vanity, a chasing after the
<wind. He tried to find happiness in wisdom. It was better. But in the
<end he confesses, "what happens to the fool will happen also to me;
<why then have I been so wise?" All efforts to find meaning and joy are
<doomed. A death sentence awaits us all. There is no avoiding it.
<
<There is an old Peanuts comic strip where Lucy asks Charlie Brown if
<he has ever known anybody who was truly happy. Before she can finish
<her sentence, in comes who else but Snoopy dancing on tiptoes, his
<nose pointed to the sky as if he were floating on air. Lucy then
<repeats her question with a little addendum, "have you ever known
<anyone who was truly happy and still in their right mind?"
<
<Now, I know there are those who live and give no thought about God and
<seem happy. And many of them are good people. They care deeply about
<the welfare of all humanity. They strive for justice. They preserve
<the environment. They thirst for knowledge . . . but they do not
<believe in God. To them life ends in the grave --no heaven, no soul
<that lives on through eternity. The meaning they receive comes from
<creating a better world for future generations. The author of
<Ecclesiastes would respond, "That's very noble, but why waste the
<effort. Your hope is a futile hope. Every future generation will end
<up like your generation, dust to dust, ashes to ashes. Spare yourself
<the pain. You, too, like those who believe in God, are living a
<disillusion. Your life, too, is full of vanity."
<
<Can a life without God, a world without God, a world that does not
<transcend the limitations of time and space, of energy and mass,
<really bring happiness?
<
<We spent a couple weeks in Switzerland on this trip. Switzerland is a
<wonderful place. The scenery is beautiful. The streets are clean.
<Everything runs efficiently. Health care is excellent. The people care
<deeply about physical fitness and time for rest and relaxation. They
<hike in the beautiful hills, ride their bikes, sail their boats. It is
<basically a secular society, but they legislate a Sabbath, a day of
<rest. Stores are closed. Factories shut down. No one works on Sundays.
<It's even illegal to mow your lawn. We couldn't use the washing
<machine. Switzerland is a beautiful, beautiful place with a standard
<of living that probably exceeds the United States. They don't have the
<poverty we have here. It seems to be a wonderful, almost idyllic place
<to live.
<
<I preached one Sunday evening at the International Protestant Church
<of Zurich. The pastor of the church showed me around the Reformation
<sites of Zurich prior to the service -- the church and statue and home
<and study of Ulrich Zwingli, the leader of the Reformed branch of the
<Reformation, in which the church that I grew up in has its roots. I
<asked him what was different about serving in Zurich, voted for the
<third year in a row the #1 best city in the whole world in which to
<live. He startled me when he said that he has a lot more funerals for
<suicide victims in Zurich than he ever had before, usually young Swiss
<men and women. "More suicides in Zurich," I asked, "this beautiful,
<prosperous city?" "Yes," he said, "people are really struggling for
<meaning."
<
<A couple days later, we were shown around the beautiful city and
<canton of Berne, where my ancestors came from. Again, a seemingly
<wonderful place to live. The old part of the city is high on a hill
<above the Arne River. Next to the big church in the center of town is
<a large patio area. There's a huge steep cliff from this patio area
<toward the river. When I looked down I noticed that about twenty feet
<below the railing was a netting along the entire cliff. I asked the
<gracious Swiss man who was our friend and guide for the day what it
<was for. The purpose: to catch people when they jumped, so they
<wouldn't be able to commit suicide there.
<
<These suicides were very different from the ones that occurred at the
<Dachau concentration camp outside of Munich, where prisoners with no
<hope, doomed to a life of hard labor, torture, starvation and misery
<threw themselves against the high voltage barbed wire fence along the
<perimeter putting a sudden ending to their pain and suffering. These
<were young people living amidst one of the most affluent societies the
<world has ever known.
<
<It's not that Christians don't sometimes commit suicide, they do at
<times. But I think these suicides in Switzerland maybe reflect the
<emptiness of people in a world of material prosperity but no God, a
<world where meaning is found in financial success, physical fitness
<and the like, but not in a relationship with God, the kind of world
<that the Book of Ecclesiastes talks about in our Scripture lesson.
<
<Ecclesiastes imagined a world without God, a world in which most of us
<would not want to live. Now, let's try to imagine a world in which
<God, God as described in all of his fullness in the Scriptures, a God
<of justice and righteousness, a God of compassion and mercy and
<forgiveness and love, a God revealed in the life, death and
<resurrection of Jesus Christ, a God who is alive and well and caring
<for the world that He created. Imagine a world in which God reigns,
<God revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't mean the world
<created by the feeble and often mistaken attempts by well-meaning
<Christians. But a world that truly reflects the fullness of the gospel
<message where love and justice, mercy and righteousness can flourish.
<Imagine that kind of world. Would you want to live in that kind of
<world? I would, and I guess that you would too.
Hmmm. Out of every 100,000 Swiss you meet, 99,979 will not kill
themselves. Here in religious America, 99,988 will not kill themselves.
I'm not sure this difference is enough to demonstrate that the secular
Swiss live lives of empty despair.
Intersting post, nontheless. However, I think our good minister danced
around the fact that Ecclesiastes IS in the Holy Bible, presumably
dictated by God, and talks desparingly about the way the world is,
not the way the world must seem to you if you're not a believer.
-- cary
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 01:35:56 AM |
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In article <816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com>,
(Voice of Truth) wrote:
A World Without God
That would be 'heaven'.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 08:02:18 PM |
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In article <816e1d8c.0410141328.3d3aee34@posting.google.com>,
(Voice of Truth) wrote:
A World Without God
You've already got it in front of you. A world without *GAWD!* would
have lots of people who want to get on with life, and even more people
who want desperately for *GAWD!* to exist anyway, and go about screaming
that anyone who doesn't believe is EEEEBIL! -- because they have nothing
else to offer as evidence.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
17 Oct 2004 12:49:41 PM |
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No need.
[]
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
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| User: "torresD" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
17 Oct 2004 01:01:13 PM |
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There is no God.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
22 Oct 2004 05:52:24 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 14:28:10 -0700, (Voice of
Truth) wrote:
A World Without God
Exactly as it is
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 08:15:15 PM |
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On 14 Oct 2004 14:28:10 -0700, (Voice of
Truth) wrote:
Can a life without God, a world without God, a world that does not
transcend the limitations of time and space, of energy and mass,
really bring happiness?
This is utterly irrelevant to the truth or falsity of any of the
various and sundry "god" propositions being advanced at any given
time. Deal with it.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 10:13:04 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:28:10 -0700, Voice of Truth wrote:
Imagine A World Without God
Interestingly, it looks just like this one...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 04:18:59 PM |
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Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
There is no god. Now if you fools would just
go about your businessw ithout pestering us
with foolish superstitions, life would be lovely.
.
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| User: "Gordon" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 07:44:49 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:18:59 -0400, wbarwell
<wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
There is no god. Now if you fools would just
go about your businessw ithout pestering us
with foolish superstitions, life would be lovely.
A mere 2000 years ago, the earth was still flat. Those dumkins
who dreamed up the idea of a spherical earth to explain why the
sun would shine straight down a well in Cairo, but at an oblique
angle down a well in Rome, or why a sailing ship disappeared bit
by bit, from the hull upward, as it sailed out of the harbor,
were just hallucinations. It's amazing what people can believe
when they close their minds to all but what they want to believe,
ignoring the evidence around them.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
15 Oct 2004 03:28:58 PM |
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On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:18:59 -0400, wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
There is no god. Now if you fools would just
go about your businessw ithout pestering us
with foolish superstitions, life would be lovely.
Why would anyone believe you. Show me the evidence.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 08:34:49 PM |
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wbarwell wrote:
Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
There is no god. Now if you fools would just
go about your businessw ithout pestering us
with foolish superstitions, life would be lovely.
how can you say 'lovely' when there would be no deity to
save them?
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
19 Oct 2004 09:10:41 PM |
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:34:49 +0800, bob young
<alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote:
wbarwell wrote:
Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
There is no god. Now if you fools would just
go about your businessw ithout pestering us
with foolish superstitions, life would be lovely.
how can you say 'lovely' when there would be no deity to
save them?
'It' put them in the situation to begin with.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
And Duty Imp and Rapscallion
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 08:58:30 PM |
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bob young <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in news:416F2938.4DD85714
@netvigator.com:
wbarwell wrote:
Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
There is no god. Now if you fools would just
go about your businessw ithout pestering us
with foolish superstitions, life would be lovely.
how can you say 'lovely' when there would be no deity to
save them?
Save them from what? God needs to save them from himself? And you
believe this crap?
--
Enkidu aa 2165
That wall, embodied in the First Amendment, is perhaps
America's most important contribution to political progress
on this planet.
Lowell Weicker
Republican Senator 1971-1989
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| User: "Chris" |
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| Title: Re: Imagine A World Without God |
14 Oct 2004 06:29:54 PM |
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Voice of Truth wrote:
A World Without God
a condensed version of the sermon delivered by Rev. Neal Sadler on
Sunday, August 1, 2004 at St. Matthew United Church of Christ,
Wheaton, Illinois
Today's Scripture Readings are:
Ecclesiastes 1:1-14; 2:18-25
Today's Scripture is from a book of the Bible that is not commonly
preached from. It is from Ecclesiastes, a book accredited to Solomon,
part of the wisdom literature of the Old Testament. Ecclesiastes is a
troubling, disturbing book for Christian to read. It seems so
pessimistic, a secular book that offers such little hope. It is
perhaps best known for the beautiful words of the third chapter, "For
everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under
heaven; a time to be born, and a time to die, a time to plant and time
to pluck up what is planted. . ." Most of the book, though, seems
dreary, talking about vanity, what we might call futility or
worthlessness.
Let us hear selections from the first couple chapters.
(read)
Will you imagine with me a world without God . . . a world without
God. Everything would be the same, except that there would be no God.
We would have the beautiful mountains and rivers and streams, the
fields of harvest, the fish in the sea, the birds of the air, all the
wonderful diverse animals that roam our planet. Everything that we can
see and touch and feel and smell will be here, but that is all. That
which we cannot know through our five sense or through reason or
scientific investigation would not exist.
Imagine that the universe began 15 billion years ago with a big bang,
and has evolved into what we see today with no divine intervention or
direction, and all will continue to evolve with no divine
intervention. The world will simply complete its course to eventual
disintegration some billions of years in the future. A world without
God. What would it be like?
I think this is what the author of Ecclesiastes is doing here, looking
at life from a completely secular view, from the view that God does
not exist or if God does exist, God has absented himself from the
world forever. Strip away the false fantasies and dreams that we human
beings have about the existence of a God, a God who is active in this
world and cares about you and me. Instead, look at the stark reality
of life as it would be without the make-believe and the idle wishes
about heaven and eternity and immortality. What is the meaning of life
in such a world? The Preacher, the author of Ecclesiastes, says very
simply, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity! A chasing after the wind."
Again, this is not the kind of Scripture passage we like to hear. The
words are not of comfort or hope or love, but words of disillusionment
and despair, words that deal with the futility of living day in and
day out. Later, he writes, "And I thought the dead, who have already
died, more fortunate than the living, who are still alive, but better
than both is the one who has not yet been, and has not seen the evil
deeds that are done under the sun." Wow! This guy will take the wind
out of anyone sails.
Life is a pain, the author says. It's a pain because there is a lot of
suffering and work. Even more so, life is a pain because from the
moment a person is born, he or she is under a sentence of death. No
matter how good or bad, how rich or poor, how smart or dumb, all end
up the same place -- the grave, if there is no God. Again, the words
of Ecclesiastes, "All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all
turn to dust again." That's a world without God
It's not that the author, again who is traditionally identified as
Solomon, did not seek happiness. He did. He sought happiness with a
gusto unmatched by few. He sought it by pursuing pleasure, the good
things in life -- gold, silver, big houses, slaves, singers and
dancers, but he confesses, it was all vanity, a chasing after the
wind. He tried to find happiness in wisdom. It was better. But in the
end he confesses, "what happens to the fool will happen also to me;
why then have I been so wise?" All efforts to find meaning and joy are
doomed. A death sentence awaits us all. There is no avoiding it.
There is an old Peanuts comic strip where Lucy asks Charlie Brown if
he has ever known anybody who was truly happy. Before she can finish
her sentence, in comes who else but Snoopy dancing on tiptoes, his
nose pointed to the sky as if he were floating on air. Lucy then
repeats her question with a little addendum, "have you ever known
anyone who was truly happy and still in their right mind?"
Now, I know there are those who live and give no thought about God and
seem happy. And many of them are good people. They care deeply about
the welfare of all humanity. They strive for justice. They preserve
the environment. They thirst for knowledge . . . but they do not
believe in God. To them life ends in the grave --no heaven, no soul
that lives on through eternity. The meaning they receive comes from
creating a better world for future generations. The author of
Ecclesiastes would respond, "That's very noble, but why waste the
effort. Your hope is a futile hope. Every future generation will end
up like your generation, dust to dust, ashes to ashes. Spare yourself
the pain. You, too, like those who believe in God, are living a
disillusion. Your life, too, is full of vanity."
Can a life without God, a world without God, a world that does not
transcend the limitations of time and space, of energy and mass,
really bring happiness?
We spent a couple weeks in Switzerland on this trip. Switzerland is a
wonderful place. The scenery is beautiful. The streets are clean.
Everything runs efficiently. Health care is excellent. The people care
deeply about physical fitness and time for rest and relaxation. They
hike in the beautiful hills, ride their bikes, sail their boats. It is
basically a secular society, but they legislate a Sabbath, a day of
rest. Stores are closed. Factories shut down. No one works on Sundays.
It's even illegal to mow your lawn. We couldn't use the washing
machine. Switzerland is a beautiful, beautiful place with a standard
of living that probably exceeds the United States. They don't have the
poverty we have here. It seems to be a wonderful, almost idyllic place
to live.
I preached one Sunday evening at the International Protestant Church
of Zurich. The pastor of the church showed me around the Reformation
sites of Zurich prior to the service -- the church and statue and home
and study of Ulrich Zwingli, the leader of the Reformed branch of the
Reformation, in which the church that I grew up in has its roots. I
asked him what was different about serving in Zurich, voted for the
third year in a row the #1 best city in the whole world in which to
live. He startled me when he said that he has a lot more funerals for
suicide victims in Zurich than he ever had before, usually young Swiss
men and women. "More suicides in Zurich," I asked, "this beautiful,
prosperous city?" "Yes," he said, "people are really struggling for
meaning."
A couple days later, we were shown around the beautiful city and
canton of Berne, where my ancestors came from. Again, a seemingly
wonderful place to live. The old part of the city is high on a hill
above the Arne River. Next to the big church in the center of town is
a large patio area. There's a huge steep cliff from this patio area
toward the river. When I looked down I noticed that about twenty feet
below the railing was a netting along the entire cliff. I asked the
gracious Swiss man who was our friend and guide for the day what it
was for. The purpose: to catch people when they jumped, so they
wouldn't be able to commit suicide there.
These suicides were very different from the ones that occurred at the
Dachau concentration camp outside of Munich, where prisoners with no
hope, doomed to a life of hard labor, torture, starvation and misery
threw themselves against the high voltage barbed wire fence along the
perimeter putting a sudden ending to their pain and suffering. These
were young people living amidst one of the most affluent societies the
world has ever known.
It's not that Christians don't sometimes commit suicide, they do at
times. But I think these suicides in Switzerland maybe reflect the
emptiness of people in a world of material prosperity but no God, a
world where meaning is found in financial success, physical fitness
and the like, but not in a relationship with God, the kind of world
that the Book of Ecclesiastes talks about in our Scripture lesson.
Ecclesiastes imagined a world without God, a world in which most of us
would not want to live. Now, let's try to imagine a world in which
God, God as described in all of his fullness in the Scriptures, a God
of justice and righteousness, a God of compassion and mercy and
forgiveness and love, a God revealed in the life, death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ, a God who is alive and well and caring
for the world that He created. Imagine a world in which God reigns,
God revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I don't mean the world
created by the feeble and often mistaken attempts by well-meaning
Christians. But a world that truly reflects the fullness of the gospel
message where love and justice, mercy and righteousness can flourish.
Imagine that kind of world. Would you want to live in that kind of
world? I would, and I guess that you would too.
I can't prove to you that this world of goodness and peace is the
world that truly exists, that this is reality and not the world that
is described in Ecclesiastes. Faith is so very necessary. I can't
prove to you without a shadow of doubt that there is a personal,
loving and just God who cares very much for you and for this world
that he created. Faith is necessary. I confess, though, that this is
the world that I proclaim to you on Sunday mornings. And I do so not
out of wishful thinking, I don't think, nor because this is the way I
would to see the world, but because this is what I truly believe the
world is like.
And I believe these things, I think (others may disagree with me) as a
sane, rational human beings. For I believe that if we, as sane,
rational human beings, look about us at this world and see its order
and beauty, and look at ourselves and listen to the voices within us,
and look at history and see the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, and
look at the live of others and how their lives have been touched, I
believe that we as sane, rational people will discover that this world
that we imagine, this world with a personal, caring God as revealed in
God's Son Jesus Christ is indeed the truth, the real world.
I think that we -- with full confidence and assurance -- can be a
people of hope, a people confident of the truth of God, the truth
about ourselves. And, being confident in that truth, I think we can
forget all those false places we sometimes go looking for meaning. We
can lay aside the many things that entice us away from God and find in
the Lord the meaning that we truly seek.
http://www.stmatthew-ucc.org/sermon-AWorldWithoutGod.htm
Very good post.....thank you
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