| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"hy" |
| Date: |
27 Mar 2007 03:33:04 AM |
| Object: |
Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
A long time ago, if you didn't believe the earth was flat, you'd
suffer for such beliefs, as Galileo Galilei discovered when he
proclaimed the earth was indeed round. At the time, the government
insisted that you believe the earth was flat, and punished Galileo for
his differing beliefs.
Also, if your religious beliefs differed from the main church at one
time in much of Europe, you could also be jailed.
Today, people are given a wide berth in what they're allowed to
believe. You can believe the earth is flat, as some folks foolishly
do. You can believe in almost any religion if you live in a western
nation.
You don't have to believe that the Soviets murdered 40 million of
their own during peace-time, and destroyed the churches-despite
massive evidence to attest to this.
You don't have to believe that the Chinese communist Chairman Mao
killed millions of his own Chinese; you can believe that he helped his
people and was a good man, as some people to this day still believe.
You can even believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the Tooth
Fairy, if you'd like. But you're not forced to believe in such
nonsense, as you are with the Jewish propaganda surrounding the
Holocaust in many parts of Europe and Canada today.
It's true: If you so much as announce to the public that you doubt the
Jews' number of 6 million killed during the Holocaust in Europe and
Canada, you will, most likely, go to jail, as David Irving, Ernst
Zundel, Germar Rudolf, and a host of other folks have discovered. Or
if you dare to question the so-called 'homicidal gas chambers,' you
may also go to jail.
For even defending someone in court on these matters in Europe, you
may also suffer legal reprisals, as the attorney Sylvia Stolz
discovered. She now stands on trial in Germany for doubting Jewish
exaggerations and lies.
Now, in Australia, Dr. Fredrick Toben is to stand on trial later this
year for doubting WWII Jewish propaganda. Being a lover of truth like
Galileo Galilei, Dr. Toben has deviated from the Jewish doctrine and
has openly announced this-that he doesn't believe everything he has
been fed with respect to the Jews' Holocaust.
Why should he be forced to believe what the Jews' say? Why should Dr.
Toben be forced to believe propaganda so baseless that it can only be
maintained with totalitarian laws brought in by intolerant Middle
Eastern immigrants?
The Australian Council of Jewry want to make an example out of Dr.
Toben. They would probably be crying for medieval tortures if still
allowed. Nevertheless, the Jews want to see Dr. Toben imprisoned for
his beliefs.
There is still time to change this. It may be too late for Canada and
much of Europe, but you can help make a difference in Australia.
If you'd like to promote free intellectual enquiry, encourage open
debate, and allow the truth to spread around the world, please
consider making a direct donation to Dr. Fredrick Toben. Please don't
wait until he's in jail, as it may be too late then.
Let his trial be known as the Trial of the Century-when truth
prevailed over Jewish propaganda.
To send direct donations to him, write -
Dr. Fredrick Toben
The Adelaide Institute
P.O. Box 3300
Adelaide 5067
AUSTRALIA
Dr. Toben's website:
http://www.AdelaideInstitute.org
SENSATION! See what Dr. Fredrick Toben is saying that is getting
people so riled up. Watch Judea Declares War on Germany, the Loose
Change of the Holocaust:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5467701992662742210
.
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| User: "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
27 Mar 2007 12:54:27 PM |
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***** nazi scum
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:
http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
.
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| User: "hy" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
27 Mar 2007 01:24:29 PM |
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On Mar 27, 6:54 pm, "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian"
<MAILTOsecret...@carcosa.de> wrote:
***** nazi scum
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
So you support the imprisonment of time-served historians who put
forward a different version of the holocaust?
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
01 Apr 2007 02:45:01 AM |
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On Mar 27, 2:24 pm, "hy" <positiveio...@googlemail.com> wrote:
On Mar 27, 6:54 pm, "Thurisaz, Germanic barbarian"
<MAILTOsecret...@carcosa.de> wrote:
***** nazi scum
--
"To his friend a man a friend shall prove, and gifts with gifts requite;
But men shall mocking with mockery answer, and fraud with falsehood meet."
(The Poetic Edda)
Must have been written with fundies in mind...
My personal judgment of monotheism:http://www.carcosa.de/nojebus
So you support the imprisonment of time-served historians who put
forward a different version of the holocaust?
The Germans are still having difficulty with the concept of freedom of
thought, speech, etc. One would think that the bastards would have
learned that lesson (the hard way) already, but apparently it hasn't
sunk in yet. My theory is that it's part of their genetic make up, as
displayed by their love of conformity, uniforms, marching in step,
etc.
I almost feel sorry for the bastards.
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 02:20:04 PM |
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On Apr 1, 3:45 am, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 27, 2:24 pm, "hy" <positiveio...@googlemail.com> wrote:
So you support the imprisonment of time-served historians who put
forward a different version of the holocaust?
The Germans are still having difficulty with the concept of freedom of
thought, speech, etc. One would think that the bastards would have
learned that lesson (the hard way) already, but apparently it hasn't
sunk in yet. My theory is that it's part of their genetic make up, as
displayed by their love of conformity, uniforms, marching in step,
etc.
I almost feel sorry for the bastards.
I can understand why in the immediate aftermath of WWII Germany
and other European nations felt it necessary to ban pro-Nazi speach or
holocaust denial. But there is no reason for such laws to still
exist. Either one has freedom of speach or one does not. If you're
going to pretend to be a democracy and have freedom of speach then it
has to apply to even to detestable morons such as holocaust deniers
and their ilk. In the US Nazis have a right to speak their views.
Everyone else, of course, has a right to ridicule them and call them
assholes. That's the way freedom is supposed to work.
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 02:42:31 PM |
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On Apr 2, 3:20 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 1, 3:45 am, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Mar 27, 2:24 pm, "hy" <positiveio...@googlemail.com> wrote:
So you support the imprisonment of time-served historians who put
forward a different version of the holocaust?
The Germans are still having difficulty with the concept of freedom of
thought, speech, etc. One would think that the bastards would have
learned that lesson (the hard way) already, but apparently it hasn't
sunk in yet. My theory is that it's part of their genetic make up, as
displayed by their love of conformity, uniforms, marching in step,
etc.
I almost feel sorry for the bastards.
I can understand why in the immediate aftermath of WWII Germany
and other European nations felt it necessary to ban pro-Nazi speach or
holocaust denial.
Either you believe in freedom of thought and speech or you don't; if I
had a dollar for every hypocrite who claims to believe in something,
but then has a long laundry list of exceptions (for the good of "the
people", of course!), I would be rich.
But there is no reason for such laws to still
exist. Either one has freedom of speach or one does not. If you're
going to pretend to be a democracy and have freedom of speach then it
has to apply to even to detestable morons such as holocaust deniers
and their ilk.
What holocaust, the Armenian one? The Kulaks? The millions and
millions of victims of communism? Which one are you talking about?
In the US Nazis have a right to speak their views.
They have the right (since it's an inaleniable right), but the
authorithies don't exactly allow them to fully use it. Nazis, or neo-
Nazis, or white supremacist, etc. are constantly harassed by the
authorities in the USA, as are "up-and-coming" new religions, the "big
two" in the US don't like the competition!
Everyone else, of course, has a right to ridicule them and call them
assholes. That's the way freedom is supposed to work.
Bingo.
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 02:57:42 PM |
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On Apr 2, 3:42 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:20 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
I can understand why in the immediate aftermath of WWII Germany
and other European nations felt it necessary to ban pro-Nazi speach or
holocaust denial.
Either you believe in freedom of thought and speech or you don't; if I
had a dollar for every hypocrite who claims to believe in something,
but then has a long laundry list of exceptions (for the good of "the
people", of course!), I would be rich.
But there is no reason for such laws to still
exist. Either one has freedom of speach or one does not. If you're
going to pretend to be a democracy and have freedom of speach then it
has to apply to even to detestable morons such as holocaust deniers
and their ilk.
What holocaust, the Armenian one? The Kulaks? The millions and
millions of victims of communism? Which one are you talking about?
I was referring to the slaughter of Jews in WW2. The other holocausts
you mentioned do not have many deniers (outside of Turkey anyways).
In the US Nazis have a right to speak their views.
They have the right (since it's an inaleniable right), but the
authorithies don't exactly allow them to fully use it.
True, but we do way better than Europe on this point. It is one thing
to be harassed and another thing to be explicitly forbidden by law to
utter certain opinions. Many European countries are completely
hypocritical about freedom of speach.
Nazis, or neo-
Nazis, or white supremacist, etc. are constantly harassed by the
authorities in the USA, as are "up-and-coming" new religions, the "big
two" in the US don't like the competition!
Everyone else, of course, has a right to ridicule them and call them
assholes. That's the way freedom is supposed to work.
Bingo.
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 03:12:06 PM |
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On Apr 2, 3:57 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:42 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:20 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
I can understand why in the immediate aftermath of WWII Germany
and other European nations felt it necessary to ban pro-Nazi speach or
holocaust denial.
Either you believe in freedom of thought and speech or you don't; if I
had a dollar for every hypocrite who claims to believe in something,
but then has a long laundry list of exceptions (for the good of "the
people", of course!), I would be rich.
But there is no reason for such laws to still
exist. Either one has freedom of speach or one does not. If you're
going to pretend to be a democracy and have freedom of speach then it
has to apply to even to detestable morons such as holocaust deniers
and their ilk.
What holocaust, the Armenian one? The Kulaks? The millions and
millions of victims of communism? Which one are you talking about?
I was referring to the slaughter of Jews in WW2.
I knew that.
The other holocausts
you mentioned do not have many deniers (outside of Turkey anyways).
Bull, according to your typical commie, nothing bad ever happened in
the Socialist Paradise.
Why is the so called (jewish) Holocaust more important than the other
ones? There were more Poles killed by the Germans during WWII than
Jews, why no mention of that? Are the Jews somehow more important
than the Poles? Same goes for the Slavs.
In the US Nazis have a right to speak their views.
They have the right (since it's an inaleniable right), but the
authorithies don't exactly allow them to fully use it.
True, but we do way better than Europe on this point. It is one thing
to be harassed and another thing to be explicitly forbidden by law to
utter certain opinions. Many European countries are completely
hypocritical about freedom of speach.
True; like I said about the Germans, which also applies to the French,
Austrians, English (and I am sure others too), they don't understand
the concept (or are hypocrites).
Nazis, or neo-
Nazis, or white supremacist, etc. are constantly harassed by the
authorities in the USA, as are "up-and-coming" new religions, the "big
two" in the US don't like the competition!
Everyone else, of course, has a right to ridicule them and call them
assholes. That's the way freedom is supposed to work.
Bingo
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 03:25:32 PM |
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On Apr 2, 4:12 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:57 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
..
What holocaust, the Armenian one? The Kulaks? The millions and
millions of victims of communism? Which one are you talking about?
I was referring to the slaughter of Jews in WW2.
I knew that.
The other holocausts
you mentioned do not have many deniers (outside of Turkey anyways).
Bull, according to your typical commie, nothing bad ever happened in
the Socialist Paradise.
Heh, heh. I know some Russian friends who would get rather pissed to
overhear remarks like that. The Russians have owned up to their
history. I am not aware that leftist types in America these days deny
the bloody history of the SU.
Why is the so called (jewish) Holocaust more important than the other
ones? There were more Poles killed by the Germans during WWII than
Jews, why no mention of that? Are the Jews somehow more important
than the Poles? Same goes for the Slavs.
Sure. A life is a life. The slaughter of Jews caught the
world's imagination because it was an actual deliberate plan to
exterminate an entire ethnic group. In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
In the US Nazis have a right to speak their views.
They have the right (since it's an inaleniable right), but the
authorithies don't exactly allow them to fully use it.
True, but we do way better than Europe on this point. It is one thing
to be harassed and another thing to be explicitly forbidden by law to
utter certain opinions. Many European countries are completely
hypocritical about freedom of speach.
True; like I said about the Germans, which also applies to the French,
Austrians, English (and I am sure others too), they don't understand
the concept (or are hypocrites).
Sweden and Denmark have a long list of banned speach also.
Nazis, or neo-
Nazis, or white supremacist, etc. are constantly harassed by the
authorities in the USA, as are "up-and-coming" new religions, the "big
two" in the US don't like the competition!
Everyone else, of course, has a right to ridicule them and call them
assholes. That's the way freedom is supposed to work.
Bingo
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 03:51:21 PM |
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On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:12 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:57 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
.
What holocaust, the Armenian one? The Kulaks? The millions and
millions of victims of communism? Which one are you talking about?
I was referring to the slaughter of Jews in WW2.
I knew that.
The other holocausts
you mentioned do not have many deniers (outside of Turkey anyways).
Bull, according to your typical commie, nothing bad ever happened in
the Socialist Paradise.
Heh, heh. I know some Russian friends who would get rather pissed to
overhear remarks like that. The Russians have owned up to their
history. I am not aware that leftist types in America these days deny
the bloody history of the SU.
Those and the even more sickening European version were what I was
referring to. How could the Russians deny it when no doubt
practically every family has had a few people murdered by the commies,
including, in some sweet justice, many of the commies murderers
themselves (Uncle Joe did want his murderers to be efficient, but not
too efficient, and certainly not too popular).
Why is the so called (jewish) Holocaust more important than the other
ones? There were more Poles killed by the Germans during WWII than
Jews, why no mention of that? Are the Jews somehow more important
than the Poles? Same goes for the Slavs.
Sure. A life is a life. The slaughter of Jews caught the
world's imagination because it was an actual deliberate plan to
exterminate an entire ethnic group.
There was a deliberate plan to get rid of the Poles, Slavs and
Russians too.
I doubt they would have been implemented. What one says in the "heat
of battle" is not necessarily what gets done afterwards, and there is
also a limit to what people will do, etc. Let's take for the example
North America, the white people committed a 300 year long genocide
against the Indians to steal the land, but that's where it stopped
(not really but close enough), the point being that, let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
In the US Nazis have a right to speak their views.
They have the right (since it's an inaleniable right), but the
authorithies don't exactly allow them to fully use it.
True, but we do way better than Europe on this point. It is one thing
to be harassed and another thing to be explicitly forbidden by law to
utter certain opinions. Many European countries are completely
hypocritical about freedom of speach.
True; like I said about the Germans, which also applies to the French,
Austrians, English (and I am sure others too), they don't understand
the concept (or are hypocrites).
Sweden and Denmark have a long list of banned speach also.
Nazis, or neo-
Nazis, or white supremacist, etc. are constantly harassed by the
authorities in the USA, as are "up-and-coming" new religions, the "big
two" in the US don't like the competition!
Everyone else, of course, has a right to ridicule them and call them
assholes. That's the way freedom is supposed to work.
Bingo
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 04:13:28 PM |
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On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that? The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers. Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous. Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context. The Arabs may be assholes and scumbags
but they had nothing to do with crimes committed by German's.
.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 04:45:40 PM |
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On Apr 2, 5:13 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
Not many Jews and Roma in Kamchatka are there?
Hitler didn't want them in Europe and gave them plenty of warnings and
chances to get the hell out. Why there were any jews left in Germany
in 1939 is beyond me, that was just pure stupidity.
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that?
Some rough "back of the envelope" calculations.
The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers.
Yes and they point away from the 6 million number.
Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
The archives were opened "recently" you say (I don't follow these
development, but it's my understanding that there is plenty of
"unopenened" archives, and as for the opened ones, one must read what
is in there, the information isn't magically transferred to
historians, etc).
Don't you find it interesting that the numbers (as reported by whom?)
are coming close to the 6 million which has been the "right" estimate
for decades? If there were no opened archives before, how did the 6
million figure come about?
I guarantee you that not just anyone can have access to the archives,
but only people with the "right" credentials, who one can be sure will
come up with the "right" number. Remember, in Germany it's a crime to
not believe that the number is 6 million (Gallileo anyone!), now, you
don't really believe that's a recipe for academic freedom I hope.
How credible is the information in the Archives?
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous.
Anti semite!
Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context.
More anti semitism, the jewish secret police is going to take an
interest in you.
The Arabs may be assholes and scumbags
All of them?
That would be more anti semitism by the way, however the jews don't
want you to know that (they have appropriated the term Semite as if it
only applies to them).
but they had nothing to do with crimes committed by German's.
Yes they did, because they did nothing to stop it.
.
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 05:17:49 PM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:13 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
Not many Jews and Roma in Kamchatka are there?
Hitler didn't want them in Europe and gave them plenty of warnings and
chances to get the hell out. Why there were any jews left in Germany
in 1939 is beyond me, that was just pure stupidity.
As the child of one who did get out in 1933, I wondered that as well.
Some believed that it would not happen in a civilized country. Some who
lived in Poland and the Baltic states did not expect the invasion.
Others simply were unable to escape.
I used to think as you did, but outgrew it years ago as I came to
understand.
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that?
Some rough "back of the envelope" calculations.
You are out of the ballpark, i.e., low by a factor of 10. Many records
were kept by the nazis, who failed in their attempts to destroy them.
That's where much of the data come from. It is considered reliable - the
nazis were Germanic in their efficiency at recordkeeping. Rudolf Hoess,
the commandant at Auschwitz acknowledged that over 1,000,000 people,
mostly Jews, were murdered while he was in charge. He could not
understand why his wife stopped sleeping with him when she learned what
his job really was.
The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers.
Yes and they point away from the 6 million number.
You misinterpret. The prewar populations were known, and the postwar
populations were known. The math is simple at that point, and it is yet
another way to validate the 6 Million number. Of course that leaves out
the Roma, the Slavs and others who were also murdered. That brings the
total closer to 10 Million.
Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
The archives were opened "recently" you say (I don't follow these
development, but it's my understanding that there is plenty of
"unopenened" archives, and as for the opened ones, one must read what
is in there, the information isn't magically transferred to
historians, etc).
Don't you find it interesting that the numbers (as reported by whom?)
are coming close to the 6 million which has been the "right" estimate
for decades? If there were no opened archives before, how did the 6
million figure come about?
I guarantee you that not just anyone can have access to the archives,
but only people with the "right" credentials, who one can be sure will
come up with the "right" number.
On what basis can you make this "guarantee?"
Remember, in Germany it's a crime to
not believe that the number is 6 million (Gallileo anyone!), now, you
don't really believe that's a recipe for academic freedom I hope.
How credible is the information in the Archives?
Belief is not the issue; it's hatespeech that is illegal. Rightfully so,
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism. The laws will become
unnecessary in a generation or two. I believe that Germany has
confronted its past and is dealing with its crimes. The laws will
eventually follow.
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous.
It is often ridiculous and inappropriate. I say that, and I am Jewish.
Anti semite!
Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context.
More anti semitism, the jewish secret police is going to take an
interest in you.
My my aren't we paranoid. Next the police will be chasing you with
helicopters and shooting you full of cosmic rays. Voices are next,
hallucinations follow, and soon you will be on antipsychotics. We await
the day.
<snip>
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
|
| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 06:36:40 PM |
|
|
On Apr 2, 6:17 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:13 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
Not many Jews and Roma in Kamchatka are there?
Hitler didn't want them in Europe and gave them plenty of warnings and
chances to get the hell out. Why there were any jews left in Germany
in 1939 is beyond me, that was just pure stupidity.
As the child of one who did get out in 1933, I wondered that as well.
Some believed that it would not happen in a civilized country. Some who
lived in Poland and the Baltic states did not expect the invasion.
Others simply were unable to escape.
I used to think as you did, but outgrew it years ago as I came to
understand.
Understand what?
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that?
Some rough "back of the envelope" calculations.
You are out of the ballpark, i.e., low by a factor of 10. Many records
were kept by the nazis, who failed in their attempts to destroy them.
That's where much of the data come from. It is considered reliable
Interesting how their data is sometimes reliable and sometimes not;
how do you know when it's one versus the other?
- the
nazis were Germanic in their efficiency at recordkeeping.
Well, well, well, you just can't help yourself with the racist
remarks!
Rudolf Hoess,
That would be Hess.
the commandant at Auschwitz acknowledged that over 1,000,000 people,
mostly Jews, were murdered while he was in charge.
Really, name a source.
He could not
understand why his wife stopped sleeping with him when she learned what
his job really was.
Women are weak, and are best suitable for the less unpleasant of
tasks; furthermore, they can't handle pressure.
The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers.
Yes and they point away from the 6 million number.
You misinterpret. The prewar populations were known, and the postwar
populations were known. The math is simple at that point, and it is yet
another way to validate the 6 Million number.
Ok, go ahead, do it.
Of course that leaves out
the Roma, the Slavs and others who were also murdered. That brings the
total closer to 10 Million.
Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
The archives were opened "recently" you say (I don't follow these
development, but it's my understanding that there is plenty of
"unopenened" archives, and as for the opened ones, one must read what
is in there, the information isn't magically transferred to
historians, etc).
Don't you find it interesting that the numbers (as reported by whom?)
are coming close to the 6 million which has been the "right" estimate
for decades? If there were no opened archives before, how did the 6
million figure come about?
I guarantee you that not just anyone can have access to the archives,
but only people with the "right" credentials, who one can be sure will
come up with the "right" number.
On what basis can you make this "guarantee?"
Intelligence.
But we can do a little test, if you are willing to pay for my trip to
Germany.
Remember, in Germany it's a crime to> not believe that the number is 6 million (Gallileo anyone!), now, you
don't really believe that's a recipe for academic freedom I hope.
How credible is the information in the Archives?
Belief is not the issue;
Yes it is, not only do they want the evil non-believer to keep it to
themselves, they also want to change what they believe to begin with,
or to eliminate them. The US is going that way too, with the so-
called "hate crimes", and so on.
it's hatespeech that is illegal.
And hate speech is of course anything the jews don't like.
Rightfully so,
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism.
What about Communism, why aren't you against it being outlawed in
Germany? It has caused many more deaths than the Nazis caused.
The laws will become
unnecessary in a generation or two. I believe that Germany has
confronted its past and is dealing with its crimes. The laws will
eventually follow.
What about Israel and its 60 year genocide of the Palestinian people,
when will it deal with the crime?
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous.
It is often ridiculous and inappropriate. I say that, and I am Jewish.
Anti semite!
Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context.
More anti semitism, the jewish secret police is going to take an
interest in you.
My my aren't we paranoid. Next the police will be chasing you with
helicopters and shooting you full of cosmic rays.
That would be ineffective, I always wear all-body invisible foil-paper
underwear.
Voices are next,
hallucinations follow, and soon you will be on antipsychotics. We await
the day.
Ah, the old "send the dissidents to the psychiatric hospital"
routine! You are definitely an "old-school" commie.
Let me guess, you are a New York "liberal" jew.
.
|
|
|
| User: "cactus" |
|
| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 08:06:51 PM |
|
|
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 6:17 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:13 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
Not many Jews and Roma in Kamchatka are there?
Hitler didn't want them in Europe and gave them plenty of warnings and
chances to get the hell out. Why there were any jews left in Germany
in 1939 is beyond me, that was just pure stupidity.
As the child of one who did get out in 1933, I wondered that as well.
Some believed that it would not happen in a civilized country. Some who
lived in Poland and the Baltic states did not expect the invasion.
Others simply were unable to escape.
I used to think as you did, but outgrew it years ago as I came to
understand.
Understand what?
Why people did not flee. I have forgiven them for not doing so, and even
understand why they did not, or could not. I do not carry a grudge
against the Germans either.
My Father got out in 1933, and returned later as an infantryman in the
US Army. He told me that when he was first there, he was very angry with
the Germans for what they did, lost his anger when he realized that the
Germans weren't that different from any of us. That insight still
resonates with me, years after he's gone.
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that?
Some rough "back of the envelope" calculations.
You are out of the ballpark, i.e., low by a factor of 10. Many records
were kept by the nazis, who failed in their attempts to destroy them.
That's where much of the data come from. It is considered reliable
Interesting how their data is sometimes reliable and sometimes not;
how do you know when it's one versus the other?
Judgement, using diverse sources, comparing them and assessments of
their credibility.
- the
nazis were Germanic in their efficiency at recordkeeping.
Well, well, well, you just can't help yourself with the racist
remarks!
Excuse me? How do you define race?
And the Germans always have taken pride in their meticulousness. Even
Eichmann.
Rudolf Hoess,
That would be Hess.
No it isn't. It's Hoess. He was the commandant in Auschwitz for a while.
His autobiography, "Commandant in Auschwitz" may still be in print.
There is an English translation. You can probably find it on Amazon or
Abe books (abebooks.com).
the commandant at Auschwitz acknowledged that over 1,000,000 people,
mostly Jews, were murdered while he was in charge.
Really, name a source.
see above.
He could not
understand why his wife stopped sleeping with him when she learned what
his job really was.
Women are weak, and are best suitable for the less unpleasant of
tasks; furthermore, they can't handle pressure.
Sarcasm, right?
The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers.
Yes and they point away from the 6 million number.
You misinterpret. The prewar populations were known, and the postwar
populations were known. The math is simple at that point, and it is yet
another way to validate the 6 Million number.
Ok, go ahead, do it.
I'm not going to do your homework for it. If you want to live in
delusion and ignorance on the subject, feel free. Otherwise, check it
out for yourself. There are plenty of sources. Raoul Hilberg has written
one of the largest monographs on the subject.
Of course that leaves out
the Roma, the Slavs and others who were also murdered. That brings the
total closer to 10 Million.
Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
The archives were opened "recently" you say (I don't follow these
development, but it's my understanding that there is plenty of
"unopenened" archives, and as for the opened ones, one must read what
is in there, the information isn't magically transferred to
historians, etc).
Don't you find it interesting that the numbers (as reported by whom?)
are coming close to the 6 million which has been the "right" estimate
for decades? If there were no opened archives before, how did the 6
million figure come about?
I guarantee you that not just anyone can have access to the archives,
but only people with the "right" credentials, who one can be sure will
come up with the "right" number.
On what basis can you make this "guarantee?"
Intelligence.
But we can do a little test, if you are willing to pay for my trip to
Germany.
I don't believe it, and I'm not spending a red cent on your education.
Remember, in Germany it's a crime to> not believe that the number is 6 million (Gallileo anyone!), now, you
don't really believe that's a recipe for academic freedom I hope.
How credible is the information in the Archives?
Belief is not the issue;
Yes it is, not only do they want the evil non-believer to keep it to
themselves, they also want to change what they believe to begin with,
or to eliminate them. The US is going that way too, with the so-
called "hate crimes", and so on.
I'd love to change their views, but I can't do it. People have to change
their own minds.
it's hatespeech that is illegal.
And hate speech is of course anything the jews don't like.
That's a lie, promulgated by people without the insight to be able to
carry on a reasoned, rational discourse.
Rightfully so,
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism.
What about Communism, why aren't you against it being outlawed in
Germany? It has caused many more deaths than the Nazis caused.
Scylla or Charybdis?
The laws will become
unnecessary in a generation or two. I believe that Germany has
confronted its past and is dealing with its crimes. The laws will
eventually follow.
What about Israel and its 60 year genocide of the Palestinian people,
when will it deal with the crime?
There will be a resolution, a just and equitable one.
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous.
It is often ridiculous and inappropriate. I say that, and I am Jewish.
Anti semite!
Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context.
More anti semitism, the jewish secret police is going to take an
interest in you.
My my aren't we paranoid. Next the police will be chasing you with
helicopters and shooting you full of cosmic rays.
That would be ineffective, I always wear all-body invisible foil-paper
underwear.
Thorazine works better. I'm not sure which is more uncomfortable.
Voices are next,
hallucinations follow, and soon you will be on antipsychotics. We await
the day.
Ah, the old "send the dissidents to the psychiatric hospital"
routine!
No, I am describing psychiatric symptoms. I'm alluding to your paranoia.
If it dominates your thinking too much that's what happens.
You are definitely an "old-school" commie.
Let me guess, you are a New York "liberal" jew.
You guess wrong.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
|
| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 09:21:25 PM |
|
|
On Apr 2, 9:06 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 6:17 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:13 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
Not many Jews and Roma in Kamchatka are there?
Hitler didn't want them in Europe and gave them plenty of warnings and
chances to get the hell out. Why there were any jews left in Germany
in 1939 is beyond me, that was just pure stupidity.
As the child of one who did get out in 1933, I wondered that as well.
Some believed that it would not happen in a civilized country. Some who
lived in Poland and the Baltic states did not expect the invasion.
Others simply were unable to escape.
I used to think as you did, but outgrew it years ago as I came to
understand.
Understand what?
Why people did not flee. I have forgiven them for not doing so, and even
understand why they did not, or could not. I do not carry a grudge
against the Germans either.
My Father got out in 1933, and returned later as an infantryman in the
US Army. He told me that when he was first there, he was very angry with
the Germans for what they did, lost his anger when he realized that the
Germans weren't that different from any of us. That insight still
resonates with me, years after he's gone.
What, did he think that they had horns growing out from the side of
their heads?
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that?
Some rough "back of the envelope" calculations.
You are out of the ballpark, i.e., low by a factor of 10. Many records
were kept by the nazis, who failed in their attempts to destroy them.
That's where much of the data come from. It is considered reliable
Interesting how their data is sometimes reliable and sometimes not;
how do you know when it's one versus the other?
Judgement, using diverse sources, comparing them and assessments of
their credibility.
And how do you use your judgement?
How do assess their credibility?
- the
nazis were Germanic in their efficiency at recordkeeping.
Well, well, well, you just can't help yourself with the racist
remarks!
Excuse me? How do you define race?
And the Germans always have taken pride in their meticulousness.
More racist remarks! You should be ashamed of yourself!
Even
Eichmann.
Rudolf Hoess,
That would be Hess.
No it isn't. It's Hoess. He was the commandant in Auschwitz for a while.
His autobiography, "Commandant in Auschwitz" may still be in print.
There is an English translation. You can probably find it on Amazon or
Abe books (abebooks.com).
When is he supposed to have written this "autobiography"? Make sure
to keep your lies consistent with each other.
the commandant at Auschwitz acknowledged that over 1,000,000 people,
mostly Jews,
Yes, the others don't matter.
Why do you believe his testimony on this matter, but not on others?
were murdered while he was in charge.
Really, name a source.
see above.
He could not
understand why his wife stopped sleeping with him when she learned what
his job really was.
Women are weak, and are best suitable for the less unpleasant of
tasks; furthermore, they can't handle pressure.
Sarcasm, right?
Some of it.
Let's say I don't believe in women presidents, specially ones named
Hillary.
The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers.
Yes and they point away from the 6 million number.
You misinterpret. The prewar populations were known, and the postwar
populations were known. The math is simple at that point, and it is yet
another way to validate the 6 Million number.
Ok, go ahead, do it.
I'm not going to do your homework for it.
Called your bluff and you lost!
If you want to live in
delusion and ignorance on the subject, feel free. Otherwise, check it
out for yourself. There are plenty of sources. Raoul Hilberg has written
one of the largest monographs on the subject.
Is he a jew by any chance?
Of course that leaves out
the Roma, the Slavs and others who were also murdered. That brings the
total closer to 10 Million.
Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
The archives were opened "recently" you say (I don't follow these
development, but it's my understanding that there is plenty of
"unopenened" archives, and as for the opened ones, one must read what
is in there, the information isn't magically transferred to
historians, etc).
Don't you find it interesting that the numbers (as reported by whom?)
are coming close to the 6 million which has been the "right" estimate
for decades? If there were no opened archives before, how did the 6
million figure come about?
I guarantee you that not just anyone can have access to the archives,
but only people with the "right" credentials, who one can be sure will
come up with the "right" number.
On what basis can you make this "guarantee?"
Intelligence.
But we can do a little test, if you are willing to pay for my trip to
Germany.
I don't believe it, and I'm not spending a red cent on your education.
Remember, in Germany it's a crime to> not believe that the number is 6 million (Gallileo anyone!), now, you
don't really believe that's a recipe for academic freedom I hope.
How credible is the information in the Archives?
Belief is not the issue;
Yes it is, not only do they want the evil non-believer to keep it to
themselves, they also want to change what they believe to begin with,
or to eliminate them. The US is going that way too, with the so-
called "hate crimes", and so on.
I'd love to change their views, but I can't do it. People have to change
their own minds.
Unless it's some evil "anti jewish" thought, in which case they should
be put in jail or in a psychiatric hospital, eh?
it's hatespeech that is illegal.
And hate speech is of course anything the jews don't like.
That's a lie, promulgated by people without the insight to be able to
carry on a reasoned, rational discourse.
What is hateful about believing that 600,000 give or take a few
thousand jews were killed instead of 6 million?
Ah yes, it's not kosher enough for the propagandists!
Rightfully so,
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism.
What about Communism, why aren't you against it being outlawed in
Germany? It has caused many more deaths than the Nazis caused.
Scylla or Charybdis?
The laws will become
unnecessary in a generation or two. I believe that Germany has
confronted its past and is dealing with its crimes. The laws will
eventually follow.
What about Israel and its 60 year genocide of the Palestinian people,
when will it deal with the crime?
There will be a resolution, a just and equitable one.
And how much time should Israel be given? It has already been 60
years! Why so much patience for the Chosen ones, and not for the
Germans?
Define "just and equitable one" for the situation.
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous.
It is often ridiculous and inappropriate. I say that, and I am Jewish.
Anti semite!
Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context.
More anti semitism, the jewish secret police is going to take an
interest in you.
My my aren't we paranoid. Next the police will be chasing you with
helicopters and shooting you full of cosmic rays.
That would be ineffective, I always wear all-body invisible foil-paper
underwear.
Thorazine works better. I'm not sure which is more uncomfortable.
You seem very knowledgeable in pharmaceuticals, I wonder why.
You won't find ANY pills at my house.
Voices are next,
hallucinations follow, and soon you will be on antipsychotics. We await
the day.
Ah, the old "send the dissidents to the psychiatric hospital"
routine!
No, I am describing psychiatric symptoms. I'm alluding to your paranoia.
If it dominates your thinking too much that's what happens.
The Jews are out to get me!
I dream of bearded bastards trying to cut off my pinga every night.
You are definitely an "old-school" commie.
Let me guess, you are a New York "liberal" jew.
You guess wrong.
That or a retired one now living in Miami or California.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
02 Apr 2007 11:13:23 PM |
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On Apr 2, 10:21 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 9:06 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Germans weren't that different from any of us. That insight still
resonates with me, years after he's gone.
What, did he think that they had horns growing out from the side of
their heads?
I dont agree here. Germans were extremely wrong and stupid in their
hatreds. I certainly have no prejudice against Germans collectively,
but many Germans were fucking MORONS between, say 1932 and 1945.
There are plenty of sources. Raoul Hilberg has written
one of the largest monographs on the subject.
Is he a jew by any chance?
And why should that question be relevant?
What is hateful about believing that 600,000 give or take a few
thousand jews were killed instead of 6 million?
Ah yes, it's not kosher enough for the propagandists!
And what is your information that makes you estimate 600,000 instead
of 6 million? Citations please!!! You may be right that the number 6
million is sligjtly too big. But I'm infinitely curious how you can
compare prewar populations and postwar survivers and find a number
that small.
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism.
What about Communism, why aren't you against it being outlawed in
Germany? It has caused many more deaths than the Nazis caused.
Communism was as big an evil as Naziism was. But the cold war is
over.
Tuco, you tell me who do you think is the evilist guy who lived in
the 20th century? I have an opinion, and it is not Hitler or Stalin
or Mao. I'm curious to see if you come up with the same candidate
that I did.
What about Israel and its 60 year genocide of the Palestinian people,
when will it deal with the crime?
60 years of Genicide is a ridiculous statement. There is no
genicide. There is, I think, wrong conduct but no genicide.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
03 Apr 2007 12:05:35 AM |
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On Apr 3, 12:13 am, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 10:21 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 9:06 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Germans weren't that different from any of us. That insight still
resonates with me, years after he's gone.
What, did he think that they had horns growing out from the side of
their heads?
I dont agree here. Germans were extremely wrong and stupid in their
hatreds. I certainly have no prejudice against Germans collectively,
but many Germans were fucking MORONS between, say 1932 and 1945.
They were no different that the typical morons everywhere, hence my
comment. Of course, everybody thinks or wants to think that their
country is "the good guys" and the other countries are "the bad guys"
It has been going forever, and will continue so forever.
There are plenty of sources. Raoul Hilberg has written
one of the largest monographs on the subject.
Is he a jew by any chance?
And why should that question be relevant?
Because he will have a vested interest on coming up with the "right"
number, if you get my drift. The Holocaust industry needs to be kept
alive, they will be milking that cow for a long time, just like the
blacks in the USA will keep milking the "400 years of slavery"
***** until whitey gets some balls and says "enough is enough".
What is hateful about believing that 600,000 give or take a few
thousand jews were killed instead of 6 million?
Ah yes, it's not kosher enough for the propagandists!
And what is your information that makes you estimate 600,000 instead
of 6 million? Citations please!!!
A little bit of information and the use of my brain when perfoming the
activity of thinking for myself.
You may be right that the number 6
million is sligjtly too big. But I'm infinitely curious how you can
compare prewar populations and postwar survivers and find a number
that small.
What are your numbers for pre and post war numbers?
I have gone through this excercise before (and of course I got plenty
of flak for it) so if you want to look through my posts, you are
welcomed to do it (one that I remember was in the alt.atheism
newsgroup, and I had a lengthy discussion with a character whose name
is "something something Yang").
But in a nutshell, when one looks at:
1) The killing capacity of the camps vs the claimed numbers of
victims, the numbers don't add up.
2) The killing capacity of the camps vs the size of the camps vs the
number of days that many survivors stayed in the camps, the number
clearly don't add up.
I am not going to work the numbers again or do the little bit of
research to get some facts straight, but the exageration of the number
of victims is such that it is on a different order of magnitude from
what can reasonably be concluded:
As I understand, the "kosher" version is that it was 6 million jews
and 6 million others; so let's pretend that the numbers are correct.
As you are probably aware, the "Final Solution" was not implemented
until sometime in 1943, but to work with round number let's say it was
sometime in 1942 and that it was implemented for a total of 1,000
days. Again to keep with round numbers, let's say that 2 million were
killed before the start of the "Final Solution"; this would mean that
10 million were killed in 1,000 days which means that every day there
were 10,000 people killed and cremated. The camps had nowhere
remotely close to that capacity, it's a completely different scale.
There are many survivors who were in the camps for months; there were
3 or 4 killing camps, and let's say that their total average
population was on the order of 100,000 (give or take a few, but if you
think this is too low, then YOU tell me what the "right" number is),
simple math then tells us that this implies that the expected lifetime
for everybody was 10 days, but there are MANY people who were in camps
for MONTHS. If there were a few EXTREMELY LUCKY people, then it could
be believable, but not when it is many. The logical conclussion being
that the number of killed per days was not 10,000 but much lower; if
we assume 1,000 per day, then the expected survival time would be 3
months, and now we can be in agreement as to the scale of the
killings. 1,000 per day implies 1 million deaths. QED.
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism.
What about Communism, why aren't you against it being outlawed in
Germany? It has caused many more deaths than the Nazis caused.
Communism was as big an evil as Naziism was. But the cold war is
over.
The commies are now "Progressives", don't you know that?
Tuco, you tell me who do you think is the evilist guy who lived in
the 20th century? I have an opinion, and it is not Hitler or Stalin
or Mao. I'm curious to see if you come up with the same candidate
that I did.
What criteria are you using? Are you limiting yourself to large scale
politicians? Are you considering "damage done" vs "opportunity for
causing damage"? John Wayne Gacy was a piece of ***** but he didn't
kill millions, but he is probably just as bad as the 3 luminaries you
mentioned above.
So what's the criteria?
What about Israel and its 60 year genocide of the Palestinian people,
when will it deal with the crime?
60 years of Genicide is a ridiculous statement. There is no
genicide. There is, I think, wrong conduct but no genicide.
So what do you call it, a misunderstanding?
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| User: "cactus" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
03 Apr 2007 11:59:40 AM |
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Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 9:06 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 6:17 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
Tuco Ramirez wrote:
On Apr 2, 5:13 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:51 pm, "Tuco Ramirez" <tucod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 2, 4:25 pm, "Mike" <mat...@hofstra.edu> wrote:
let's say the US
hadn't gotten involved in WWII, so the Germans would have defeated the
Soviet Union and taken over the land West of the Urals (that's what
Hitler wanted), I doubt that Hitler would have sent soldiers to the
last corner of Kamchatka chasing commies or jews or whoever. It was
about land, nothing else, the rest is just ***** politicians make
to get the masses of fools to go along with the program.
Can't agree that it was only about land. Perhaps early in the war
Hitler was more interested in "ethnically cleansing" certain areas of
land of certain ethnic groups, but as the death camps got into full
swing Hitler got obsessed with simply exterminating Jews and Roma.
Not many Jews and Roma in Kamchatka are there?
Hitler didn't want them in Europe and gave them plenty of warnings and
chances to get the hell out. Why there were any jews left in Germany
in 1939 is beyond me, that was just pure stupidity.
As the child of one who did get out in 1933, I wondered that as well.
Some believed that it would not happen in a civilized country. Some who
lived in Poland and the Baltic states did not expect the invasion.
Others simply were unable to escape.
I used to think as you did, but outgrew it years ago as I came to
understand.
Understand what?
Why people did not flee. I have forgiven them for not doing so, and even
understand why they did not, or could not. I do not carry a grudge
against the Germans either.
<snip>
In terms of actual numbers the
Jews were only a small fraction of the total carnage of WWII.
Supposedly it is known that if Hitler had succeeded in defeating the
Soviet Union he was planning to engineer massive famines on a scale
that even Stalin would have envied.
Not famines, he was going to use them as slave labor, and not allow
them to reproduce so they would die off; that was the plan anyway.
Nobody really know what would eventually have happened.
But again the massacre of Poles and other Slavs is not denied by
anyone. The slaughter of the Jews does attract crackpot deniers.
As it also attracts crackpot propagandists. The six million number is
obviously a wild exageration. I would bet it's closer to 600,000 than
to 6.000,000.
And what is your basis for that?
Some rough "back of the envelope" calculations.
You are out of the ballpark, i.e., low by a factor of 10. Many records
were kept by the nazis, who failed in their attempts to destroy them.
That's where much of the data come from. It is considered reliable
Interesting how their data is sometimes reliable and sometimes not;
how do you know when it's one versus the other?
Judgement, using diverse sources, comparing them and assessments of
their credibility.
And how do you use your judgement?
How do assess their credibility?
Look at the source. If the source is someone like Faurisson or
Ahmedinijad, there is no need to believe it. If the source has
credibility in the mainstream scholarly community it is more likely to
be credible than if not.
That's a start.
- the
nazis were Germanic in their efficiency at recordkeeping.
Well, well, well, you just can't help yourself with the racist
remarks!
Excuse me? How do you define race?
And the Germans always have taken pride in their meticulousness.
More racist remarks! You should be ashamed of yourself!
Even
Eichmann.
Rudolf Hoess,
That would be Hess.
No it isn't. It's Hoess. He was the commandant in Auschwitz for a while.
His autobiography, "Commandant in Auschwitz" may still be in print.
There is an English translation. You can probably find it on Amazon or
Abe books (abebooks.com).
When is he supposed to have written this "autobiography"? Make sure
to keep your lies consistent with each other.
Hoess, R. "Commandant of Auschwitz" Cleveland, World Publishing 1959
(translation). Library of Congress Card #60-5808
Original published in Poland in 1951 under the title "Wspomnienia."
the commandant at Auschwitz acknowledged that over 1,000,000 people,
mostly Jews,
Yes, the others don't matter.
Why do you believe his testimony on this matter, but not on others?
He's credible and consistent with valid information.
were murdered while he was in charge.
Really, name a source.
see above.
He could not
understand why his wife stopped sleeping with him when she learned what
his job really was.
Women are weak, and are best suitable for the less unpleasant of
tasks; furthermore, they can't handle pressure.
Sarcasm, right?
Some of it.
Let's say I don't believe in women presidents, specially ones named
Hillary.
The prewar Jewish population of
Europe was more or less known as is the approximate number of postwar
survivers.
Yes and they point away from the 6 million number.
You misinterpret. The prewar populations were known, and the postwar
populations were known. The math is simple at that point, and it is yet
another way to validate the 6 Million number.
Ok, go ahead, do it.
I'm not going to do your homework for it.
Called your bluff and you lost!
Not at all. I could have done lots of work and you would have simply
ignored it or question the religion of the sources as you have below. I
encountered those tricks when I worked in a psychiatric hospital many
years ago, and I have been somewhat immunized.
If you want to live in
delusion and ignorance on the subject, feel free. Otherwise, check it
out for yourself. There are plenty of sources. Raoul Hilberg has written
one of the largest monographs on the subject.
Is he a jew by any chance?
Of course that leaves out
the Roma, the Slavs and others who were also murdered. That brings the
total closer to 10 Million.
Just recently the Germans opened their archives and
records for some of the death camps and more data should be coming
in. I have seen estimates as low as 5.2 million and as high as 6.8
million. But most historians who have studied the data agree of one
rounds to the nearest million one gets 6 million
The archives were opened "recently" you say (I don't follow these
development, but it's my understanding that there is plenty of
"unopenened" archives, and as for the opened ones, one must read what
is in there, the information isn't magically transferred to
historians, etc).
Don't you find it interesting that the numbers (as reported by whom?)
are coming close to the 6 million which has been the "right" estimate
for decades? If there were no opened archives before, how did the 6
million figure come about?
I guarantee you that not just anyone can have access to the archives,
but only people with the "right" credentials, who one can be sure will
come up with the "right" number.
On what basis can you make this "guarantee?"
Intelligence.
But we can do a little test, if you are willing to pay for my trip to
Germany.
I don't believe it, and I'm not spending a red cent on your education.
Remember, in Germany it's a crime to> not believe that the number is 6 million (Gallileo anyone!), now, you
don't really believe that's a recipe for academic freedom I hope.
How credible is the information in the Archives?
Belief is not the issue;
Yes it is, not only do they want the evil non-believer to keep it to
themselves, they also want to change what they believe to begin with,
or to eliminate them. The US is going that way too, with the so-
called "hate crimes", and so on.
I'd love to change their views, but I can't do it. People have to change
their own minds.
Unless it's some evil "anti jewish" thought, in which case they should
be put in jail or in a psychiatric hospital, eh?
No.
it's hatespeech that is illegal.
And hate speech is of course anything the jews don't like.
That's a lie, promulgated by people without the insight to be able to
carry on a reasoned, rational discourse.
What is hateful about believing that 600,000 give or take a few
thousand jews were killed instead of 6 million?
Ah yes, it's not kosher enough for the propagandists!
It's a lie.
Rightfully so,
they wanted to prevent a resurgence of naziism.
What about Communism, why aren't you against it being outlawed in
Germany? It has caused many more deaths than the Nazis caused.
Scylla or Charybdis?
The laws will become
unnecessary in a generation or two. I believe that Germany has
confronted its past and is dealing with its crimes. The laws will
eventually follow.
What about Israel and its 60 year genocide of the Palestinian people,
when will it deal with the crime?
There will be a resolution, a just and equitable one.
And how much time should Israel be given? It has already been 60
years! Why so much patience for the Chosen ones, and not for the
Germans?
As long as it takes. The Arab states who control the Palestinians have
pulled back from the brink of success several times.
Define "just and equitable one" for the situation.
One that both parties agree to.
Furthermore, the so called "Holocaust" is always exploited to justify
just about anything that the Jews or Israel do, they can do no wrong,
by definition.
I agree that some Jews cite the holocaust as justifying Israeli
policy which, of course, is ridiculous.
It is often ridiculous and inappropriate. I say that, and I am Jewish.
Anti semite!
Israelis should never mention
the holocaust in that context.
More anti semitism, the jewish secret police is going to take an
interest in you.
My my aren't we paranoid. Next the police will be chasing you with
helicopters and shooting you full of cosmic rays.
That would be ineffective, I always wear all-body invisible foil-paper
underwear.
Thorazine works better. I'm not sure which is more uncomfortable.
You seem very knowledgeable in pharmaceuticals, I wonder why.
You won't find ANY pills at my house.
That is not necessarily good.
Voices are next,
hallucinations follow, and soon you will be on antipsychotics. We await
the day.
Ah, the old "send the dissidents to the psychiatric hospital"
routine!
No, I am describing psychiatric symptoms. I'm alluding to your paranoia.
If it dominates your thinking too much that's what happens.
The Jews are out to get me!
I dream of bearded bastards trying to cut off my pinga every night.
The guilty flee when none pursue.
You are definitely an "old-school" commie.
Let me guess, you are a New York "liberal" jew.
You guess wrong.
That or a retired one now living in Miami or California.
Wrong again.
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| User: "Tuco Ramirez" |
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| Title: Re: Imprisoning academics, in the West. |
03 Apr 2007 12:55:53 PM |
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On Apr 3, 12:59 pm, cactus & | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
