| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
12 Jan 2005 11:06:00 PM |
| Object: |
In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
From the article:
----------------------------------
A statement that raises questions about evolution and makes reference to an
alternative theory will not be read to ninth-grade biology students at Dover
High School tomorrow as expected.
However, the superintendent said the delay has nothing to do with the lawsuit
filed against the district over the statement or the science department's
request last week to opt out of reading it.
The statement will be read next Tuesday or Wednesday because the teachers have
not yet reached the evolution segment of the course, said superintendent
Richard Nilsen.
"In all fairness, Jan. 13 was the earliest date that the teachers would reach
the evolution section," Nilsen said.
The controversial four-paragraph statement will be read to students by district
administrators.
-----------------------------------
Read it at http://www.yorkdispatch.com/Stories/0,1413,138~10023~2648961,00.html
J. Spaceman
--
My email address (notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org) is fake. Email sent to it
will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 06:56:36 PM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------
A statement that raises questions about evolution and makes reference to an
alternative theory will not be read to ninth-grade biology students at Dover
High School tomorrow as expected.
So, do they have to read a statement to chemistry students that says
phlogiston is an alternative theory to combustion?
< snip >
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 11:13:42 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:56:36 +0000 (UTC), Tukla Ratte
<tukla_ratte@tukla.net> said in alt.atheism:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
A statement that raises questions about evolution and makes reference to an
alternative theory will not be read to ninth-grade biology students at Dover
High School tomorrow as expected.
So, do they have to read a statement to chemistry students that says
phlogiston is an alternative theory to combustion?
And, in physics, the "alternate theory" of aether.
--
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 12:24:57 AM |
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
The controversial four-paragraph statement will be read to students by
district administrators.
Bet that will convince the kids that it's science instead of politics.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 12:31:29 AM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, (Bobby D. Bryant) wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
The controversial four-paragraph statement will be read to students by
district administrators.
Bet that will convince the kids that it's science instead of politics.
Also, it might be interesting to be a fly on the wall and hear what is
said when the administrator leaves the room.
For that matter, I wonder whether any of the kids will challenge the
administrator directly.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "BL" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 02:04:37 AM |
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Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 12:16:24 PM |
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"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 01:03:43 PM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 01:09:58 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "R Brown" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 01:15:01 PM |
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"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
I'm not sure about that. "Dr. Dino" (Kent Hovind) seems to exploit that love
of dinosaurs to his advantage.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 01:22:28 PM |
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"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Actually, now thinking about it, I always loved dinosaurs (was my favorite
exhibit at the Museum of Natural History in NYC), so I probably did learn
about evolution MUCH earlier than sixth grade. My favorite dinosaur was the
triceratops ;)
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "R Brown" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 01:38:36 PM |
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"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:34nc9iF4cqs2cU1@individual.net...
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Actually, now thinking about it, I always loved dinosaurs (was my favorite
exhibit at the Museum of Natural History in NYC), so I probably did learn
about evolution MUCH earlier than sixth grade. My favorite dinosaur was
the triceratops ;)
I tried Sarah Tops, but she dumped me after just one date.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 09:57:34 PM |
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R Brown <rbrown@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:34nc9iF4cqs2cU1@individual.net...
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Actually, now thinking about it, I always loved dinosaurs (was my favorite
exhibit at the Museum of Natural History in NYC), so I probably did learn
about evolution MUCH earlier than sixth grade. My favorite dinosaur was
the triceratops ;)
I tried Sarah Tops, but she dumped me after just one date.
Why? Were you feeling horny?
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
God cheats
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| User: "Richard Forrest" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 01:49:10 PM |
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R Brown wrote:
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message
news:34nc9iF4cqs2cU1@individual.net...
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or
2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Actually, now thinking about it, I always loved dinosaurs (was my
favorite
exhibit at the Museum of Natural History in NYC), so I probably did
learn
about evolution MUCH earlier than sixth grade. My favorite
dinosaur was
the triceratops ;)
I tried Sarah Tops, but she dumped me after just one date.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
You should have asked the other two.
RF
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 10:16:01 PM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Actually, now thinking about it, I always loved dinosaurs (was my favorite
exhibit at the Museum of Natural History in NYC), so I probably did learn
about evolution MUCH earlier than sixth grade. My favorite dinosaur was the
triceratops ;)
That's just 'cause Uncle Beazley was so darm cute!
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "Landis D. Ragon" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
15 Jan 2005 06:47:54 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:16:01 +0000 (UTC), Glenn Arnold
<oldnoah@att.net> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"Bobby D. Bryant" <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:cs5t7o$ptr$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Actually, now thinking about it, I always loved dinosaurs (was my favorite
exhibit at the Museum of Natural History in NYC), so I probably did learn
about evolution MUCH earlier than sixth grade. My favorite dinosaur was the
triceratops ;)
That's just 'cause Uncle Beazley was so darm cute!
What? somebody else who remembers that book?
LOL
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "Dan Clore" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 11:46:27 PM |
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Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1105583154.099322.224610@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Are you kidding? I learned about evolution in 6th grade.
I learned about evolution in second grade, on my own,
reading things like a college palaeontology textbook. (I
really liked dinosaurs when I was a kid!)
Childrens' love of dinosaurs may be creationism's worst enemy.
Could be! I swear, though, when I see this Creationist crap
I feel like buying a big box of books by Stephen Jay Gould
and handing them out free to kids as they come out of school.
--
Dan Clore
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord We˙rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
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| User: "ođin" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 02:21:14 AM |
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Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Probably because 9th graders have the prerequisites to understand basic
evolution. Why wait?
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 11:30:16 PM |
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BL wrote:
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
Ninth grade was when I encountered evolution in biology class. That
was the school year 1963-64.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herder
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 05:35:39 AM |
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Biology is commonly taught in 9th grade, usually it goes:
9 - Biology
10 - Chemistry
11 - Physics
12 - AP class
(By "commonly" I mean "what they did at my school")
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| User: "Matt Zellman" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 06:56:21 AM |
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wrote:
Biology is commonly taught in 9th grade, usually it goes:
9 - Biology
10 - Chemistry
11 - Physics
12 - AP class
(By "commonly" I mean "what they did at my school")
I always find it interesting that subjects are taught in this order, as
it seems entirely backwards to me. I think they should all be AP, and
taught in the order they build on each other: Physics to Chem to Bio...
but then again, I was spoiled, having completed the prerequisites in
time to do that.
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| User: "Paul J Gans" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
14 Jan 2005 03:26:58 AM |
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In talk.origins Matt Zellman <matt.zellman@gmail.com> wrote:
nickmatzke@gmail.com wrote:
Biology is commonly taught in 9th grade, usually it goes:
9 - Biology
10 - Chemistry
11 - Physics
12 - AP class
(By "commonly" I mean "what they did at my school")
I always find it interesting that subjects are taught in this order, as
it seems entirely backwards to me. I think they should all be AP, and
taught in the order they build on each other: Physics to Chem to Bio...
but then again, I was spoiled, having completed the prerequisites in
time to do that.
The sequence is ancient. It certainly existed before I was
in High School and that was back before they kept records.
The notion was that Biology was simple. It was (then)
a descriptive science. One learned the names of a number
of phyla, dissected something ucky, studied the cloaca,
and dealt with worms.
Evolution was not mentioned.
Then came chemistry which was taught as a descriptive
science. We learned reactions and a bit about the
periodic table and batteries. We learned when a cathode
was a cathode and when it was an anode and other
absolutely fascinating subjects. There was no mention
of quantum mechanics, thermodynamics or anything like
them. The nearest we got was the Bohr theory which
was presented as a given.
Finally we had physics. By then we (supposedly) had
learned enough math so that they could do algebraic
derivations. And we did vectors. Dot products and
cross products. It felt as if we were actually doing
something, but we weren't.
The sequence has not changed, although it should. Biology
is now very complicated, basic chemistry is moribund and
on a par with plane geometry, and physics requires more
math.
What has changed is that by the senior year many students
have actually had a calculus course. With that they
could actually study physics and chemical physics. As
far as I can tell, they don't really, unless my incoming
freshmen have all had the beam of forgetfulness shined
on them at High School Graduation.
On the other hand, this is like evolution. Looking back
only 60 or 70 years, one sees little change. Go back
600 and change is definitely visible. Back then schools
taught the trivium and the quadrivium. No chemistry,
physics, or biology, although astronomy was part of the
quadrivium.
----- Paul J. Gans, a veritable fountain of first-hand
information about times so ancient nobody cares
anymore.
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
14 Jan 2005 03:45:39 AM |
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Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> wrote, appertaining to education and its
modern parlous state:
On the other hand, this is like evolution. Looking back
only 60 or 70 years, one sees little change. Go back
600 and change is definitely visible. Back then schools
taught the trivium and the quadrivium. No chemistry,
physics, or biology, although astronomy was part of the
quadrivium.
----- Paul J. Gans, a veritable fountain of first-hand
information about times so ancient nobody cares
anymore.
I would think it would be a *major* improvement on modern education to
teach the trivium and quadrivium:
Trivium:
- Grammar (traditional - it's easier to teach languages from. They
taught Latin, of course, but I would permit other languages)
- Rhetoric (public speaking, argument)
- Logic (in fact I think that Aristotle's logic, like traditional
grammar, is easier to teach and learn)
Quadrivium:
- Arithmetic (Number theory)
- Geometry
- Harmonics (wave theory)
- Astronomy (cosmology)
Now any student who came out of high school well versed in all these
would, I think, be admirably equipped to do a university degree on many
subjects. But still, I'd revise it a bit for the Modern World:
Trivium
- Language (first and second)
- Communication
- Critical Thinking
Quadrivium
- Mathematical theory and methods
- Applied mathematics (including trig, stats, etc.)
- Physics and Chemistry
- Special sciences (including biology, astronomy, geology)
If you liked, Communication could be Culture, and include geography and
history. And we could change it to the three humanities and the four
science streams instead of the Latin names (but basic Latin terms would
be taught to all in my world).
When *I* am king of the world...
--
John S. Wilkins AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
God cheats
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| User: "Paul J Gans" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
14 Jan 2005 05:01:15 PM |
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In talk.origins John Wilkins <johnSPAM@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com> wrote, appertaining to education and its
modern parlous state:
On the other hand, this is like evolution. Looking back
only 60 or 70 years, one sees little change. Go back
600 and change is definitely visible. Back then schools
taught the trivium and the quadrivium. No chemistry,
physics, or biology, although astronomy was part of the
quadrivium.
----- Paul J. Gans, a veritable fountain of first-hand
information about times so ancient nobody cares
anymore.
I would think it would be a *major* improvement on modern education to
teach the trivium and quadrivium:
Trivium:
- Grammar (traditional - it's easier to teach languages from. They
taught Latin, of course, but I would permit other languages)
- Rhetoric (public speaking, argument)
- Logic (in fact I think that Aristotle's logic, like traditional
grammar, is easier to teach and learn)
Sure. But of course I cheated. These were university courses.
One already had a number of years of "elementary" education.
But the system certainly turned out folks who knew how to
argue a thesis. Those guys would tie most modern politicians
up in knots.
Quadrivium:
- Arithmetic (Number theory)
- Geometry
- Harmonics (wave theory)
- Astronomy (cosmology)
Now any student who came out of high school well versed in all these
would, I think, be admirably equipped to do a university degree on many
subjects. But still, I'd revise it a bit for the Modern World:
Oh, I'd agree.
Trivium
- Language (first and second)
- Communication
- Critical Thinking
Quadrivium
- Mathematical theory and methods
- Applied mathematics (including trig, stats, etc.)
- Physics and Chemistry
- Special sciences (including biology, astronomy, geology)
If you liked, Communication could be Culture, and include geography and
history. And we could change it to the three humanities and the four
science streams instead of the Latin names (but basic Latin terms would
be taught to all in my world).
I'd argue only that history is the king of the humanities. Without
history we are all simply apes.
When *I* am king of the world...
Whey you are king of the world we'll all be signing our
posts
*The King cheats*
---- Paul J. Gans
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
14 Jan 2005 04:05:53 AM |
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, (John Wilkins) wrote:
I would think it would be a *major* improvement on modern education to
teach the trivium and quadrivium:
Trivium:
- Grammar (traditional - it's easier to teach languages from. They
taught Latin, of course, but I would permit other languages)
- Rhetoric (public speaking, argument)
- Logic (in fact I think that Aristotle's logic, like traditional
grammar, is easier to teach and learn)
And with the last two of those under the belt, a ninth grader would
be plenty intelligent+educated enough to see the fraud in intelligent
design.
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Paul J Gans" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
14 Jan 2005 05:07:50 PM |
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In talk.origins Bobby D. Bryant <bdbryant@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005, (John Wilkins) wrote:
I would think it would be a *major* improvement on modern education to
teach the trivium and quadrivium:
Trivium:
- Grammar (traditional - it's easier to teach languages from. They
taught Latin, of course, but I would permit other languages)
- Rhetoric (public speaking, argument)
- Logic (in fact I think that Aristotle's logic, like traditional
grammar, is easier to teach and learn)
And with the last two of those under the belt, a ninth grader would
be plenty intelligent+educated enough to see the fraud in intelligent
design.
It should be noted that the medievals did NOT accept the
bible as inerrant. They knew better. Here's the first part
of a recent review posted by "The Medieval Review", which
does these reviews. They have an enormous collection. I
don't have their URL handy but one can Google for it.
************* start included material *****************
Cohen, Mordechai Z. <i>Three Approaches to Biblical Metaphor: From Abraham
ibn Ezra and Maimonides to David Kimhi</i>. Leiden and Boston: Brill,
2003. Etudes sur le judaisme medievale, 26. Pp. xvii + 375. $124.00 (hb).
ISBN: 9004129715.
Reviewed by Ira Robinson
Concordia University
It is a given that, for medieval Jews, the writings of the Hebrew Bible
represented truth. If, however, the Bible was always true, it was not
necessarily factual in its most literal reading. Thus, for example, by the
Middle Ages it had become conventional to regard the anthropomorphism
found in the Hebrew Bible as not being true in a literal sense. The
essential question asked by medieval Jews reading their Bible was
essentially "when does the Bible mean literally what it says, and when
doesn^?t it?" They asked the further question, "when the Bible does not
mean what it literally says, what does it mean?" To answer these questions
was the primary task of medieval Jewish Biblical exegesis, which is the
subject of Mordechai Cohen^?s book.
************ end included material ************
While this pertains to the Jews in the 12th century, Christians
as typified by Abelard and many others, were having the identical
debates (which, of course, was no accident.)
You can see the retrogression in some religious circles today.
----- Paul J. Gans
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
14 Jan 2005 08:51:14 PM |
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Paul J Gans wrote:
In talk.origins Matt Zellman <matt.zellman@gmail.com> wrote:
nickmatzke@gmail.com wrote:
Biology is commonly taught in 9th grade, usually it goes:
9 - Biology
10 - Chemistry
11 - Physics
12 - AP class
(By "commonly" I mean "what they did at my school")
I always find it interesting that subjects are taught in this order,
as
it seems entirely backwards to me. I think they should all be AP,
and
taught in the order they build on each other: Physics to Chem to
Bio...
but then again, I was spoiled, having completed the prerequisites in
time to do that.
The sequence is ancient. It certainly existed before I was
in High School and that was back before they kept records.
The notion was that Biology was simple. It was (then)
a descriptive science. One learned the names of a number
of phyla, dissected something ucky, studied the cloaca,
and dealt with worms.
Evolution was not mentioned.
Then came chemistry which was taught as a descriptive
science. We learned reactions and a bit about the
periodic table and batteries. We learned when a cathode
was a cathode and when it was an anode and other
absolutely fascinating subjects. There was no mention
of quantum mechanics, thermodynamics or anything like
them. The nearest we got was the Bohr theory which
was presented as a given.
Finally we had physics. By then we (supposedly) had
learned enough math so that they could do algebraic
derivations. And we did vectors. Dot products and
cross products. It felt as if we were actually doing
something, but we weren't.
The sequence has not changed, although it should. Biology
is now very complicated, basic chemistry is moribund and
on a par with plane geometry, and physics requires more
math.
What has changed is that by the senior year many students
have actually had a calculus course. With that they
could actually study physics and chemical physics. As
far as I can tell, they don't really, unless my incoming
freshmen have all had the beam of forgetfulness shined
on them at High School Graduation.
This is pretty much what the science curriculum was when I was in HS
(in Florida!). Very little mention of evolution...I was fortunate
enough to have educated parents (dad was a physician) so I took it for
granted that evolution was an underlying principle in biology. They
had just started teaching calculus my senior year, but my folks were
rather skeptical of the quality of the math track, so I took calc at a
local community college fall of my senior year.
PJ
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 10:12:42 PM |
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Matt Zellman wrote:
nickmatzke@gmail.com wrote:
Biology is commonly taught in 9th grade, usually it goes:
9 - Biology
10 - Chemistry
11 - Physics
12 - AP class
(By "commonly" I mean "what they did at my school")
I always find it interesting that subjects are taught in this order, as
it seems entirely backwards to me. I think they should all be AP, and
taught in the order they build on each other: Physics to Chem to Bio...
My thoughts exactly. I like how they expect you to understand the Krebs
Cycle before you learn chemistry.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "Bobby D. Bryant" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 02:20:06 AM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, "BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote:
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
I'm surprised that they're not getting it several years _earlier_.
Is this their first exposure to biology?
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
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| User: "Tukla Ratte" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Dover delays biology class statement |
13 Jan 2005 06:47:42 PM |
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Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005, "BL" <BlackLightning1@gmail.com> wrote:
Why are they teaching evolution to 9th graders. wait a year or 2.
I'm surprised that they're not getting it several years _earlier_.
Is this their first exposure to biology?
My first "biology" course was one semester in 8th grade (1983 or 1984),
and it was mostly an "insects have six legs, arachnids have eight, now
let's burn some donut crumbs to see how many calories are in them" sort
of thing.
My first *real* biology course was a year-long one in 10th grade.
That's the one where they taught us about proteins, DNA, Mendel, cell
structure, and evolution.
So, to me, teaching real biology in 9th grade is an *improvement*.
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
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