| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
03 Mar 2005 01:30:12 AM |
| Object: |
In the News: ID debate continues at college |
From the article:
------------------------------------------
Lawyers on both sides of the Dover schools controversy spoke at
Elizabethtown.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Wednesday, March 2, 2005
The ACLU and Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., have already
gone toe-to-toe a couple of times in court over the intelligent design
controversy surrounding the Dover Area School District.
During its regular meeting on Oct 18, the board voted 6-3 to allow
changes to their biology curriculum that reads: "Students will be made
aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's Theory and of other theories of
evolution including, but not limited to intelligent design. Note:
Origins of life will not be taught."
Opponents of the decision say it violates their Constitutional right
to a separation of church and state. Supporters say the theory is a
legitimate scientific alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution,
which they say has serious gaps and problems.
On Tuesday afternoon, Richard Thompson from Thomas More and Vic
Walczak from the American Civil Liberties Union went at each other
again at Elizabethtown College.
The school hosted a series of debates on intelligent design, one of
which featured a three-hour session with Thompson and Walczak. They
were each given 45 minutes to make their arguments. Then they were
given 10 minutes for rebuttal.
---------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/60323/
J. Spaceman
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 06:33:36 AM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote
During its regular meeting on Oct 18, the board voted
6-3 to allow changes to their biology curriculum that
reads: "Students will be made aware of gaps/problems
in Darwin's Theory and of other theories of evolution
including, but not limited to intelligent design. Note:
Origins of life will not be taught."
So are they claiming that nobody ever told them that there
isn't a theory of intelligent design?
And even if that *Was* true at one time, what is their
excuse now?
"Jesus wants us to lie. Jesus doesn't like people with
integrity."
There is no theory of intelligent design. Period. And, yes,
the bible thumpers know this. They have been informed.
They have no excuses.
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| User: "Nosterill" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 03:59:48 AM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------
Lawyers on both sides of the Dover schools controversy spoke at
Elizabethtown.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Wednesday, March 2, 2005
The ACLU and Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., have already
gone toe-to-toe a couple of times in court over the intelligent
design
controversy surrounding the Dover Area School District.
During its regular meeting on Oct 18, the board voted 6-3 to allow
changes to their biology curriculum that reads: "Students will be
made
aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's Theory and of other theories of
evolution including, but not limited to intelligent design. Note:
Origins of life will not be taught."
Opponents of the decision say it violates their Constitutional right
to a separation of church and state. Supporters say the theory is a
legitimate scientific alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution,
which they say has serious gaps and problems.
On Tuesday afternoon, Richard Thompson from Thomas More and Vic
Walczak from the American Civil Liberties Union went at each other
again at Elizabethtown College.
The school hosted a series of debates on intelligent design, one of
which featured a three-hour session with Thompson and Walczak. They
were each given 45 minutes to make their arguments. Then they were
given 10 minutes for rebuttal.
---------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/60323/
J. Spaceman
Does anyone know if the ID brigade have expressed a view on
circumcision? I understand the practice is rather prevalent in the god
fearing US of A. Doesn't this suggest that these good folks think that
they know better than the hypothetical designer? Seems a bit
presumptious to me.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 04:26:43 AM |
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Nosterill wrote:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------
Lawyers on both sides of the Dover schools controversy spoke at
Elizabethtown.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Wednesday, March 2, 2005
The ACLU and Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., have
already
gone toe-to-toe a couple of times in court over the intelligent
design
controversy surrounding the Dover Area School District.
During its regular meeting on Oct 18, the board voted 6-3 to allow
changes to their biology curriculum that reads: "Students will be
made
aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's Theory and of other theories of
evolution including, but not limited to intelligent design. Note:
Origins of life will not be taught."
Opponents of the decision say it violates their Constitutional
right
to a separation of church and state. Supporters say the theory is a
legitimate scientific alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution,
which they say has serious gaps and problems.
On Tuesday afternoon, Richard Thompson from Thomas More and Vic
Walczak from the American Civil Liberties Union went at each other
again at Elizabethtown College.
The school hosted a series of debates on intelligent design, one of
which featured a three-hour session with Thompson and Walczak. They
were each given 45 minutes to make their arguments. Then they were
given 10 minutes for rebuttal.
---------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/60323/
J. Spaceman
Does anyone know if the ID brigade have expressed a view on
circumcision? I understand the practice is rather prevalent in the
god
fearing US of A. Doesn't this suggest that these good folks think
that
they know better than the hypothetical designer? Seems a bit
presumptious to me.
Like I said to someone on Usenet a while ago, I have seen a normal
number of penes in my time, but have only ever seen a circumcised penis
in American porn.
~Iain
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| User: "Jason Spaceman" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 01:38:48 AM |
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More on the Elizabethtwon College debate/forum thingee
'Designs on Darwin: E-town forum takes up topic of 'intelligent
design' in schools'
http://www.lancasteronline.com/pages/news/local/4/12404
From the article:
-------------------------------------------
Paul Gross, emeritus professor of life sciences at University of
Virginia, co-wrote "Higher Superstition" and "Creationism's Trojan
Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design." At Elizabethtown Tuesday, he
said 99 percent of the world's scientists believe evolution is fact
and the "intelligent design" critique is "insignificant."
Since it is "insignificant" to the scientific world, does it deserve
to be discussed in the limited amount of time available to a high
school science class? Gross believes not.
The "intelligent design" theory really is not science, he said. It is
religion, and the controversy really is religion versus religion
(since some theologies have no objection to scientific evolution), not
science versus science.
--------------------------------------------------
J. Spaceman
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| User: "Jason Spaceman" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 01:54:45 AM |
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''Detectives' differ sharply in 'intelligent design' debate'
http://www.lancasteronline.com/pages/news/local/4/12414
J. Spaceman
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| User: "Bill Gascoyne" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 11:56:28 AM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
''Detectives' differ sharply in 'intelligent design' debate'
http://www.lancasteronline.com/pages/news/local/4/12414
J. Spaceman
According to the article, "The earth is almost 14 billion years old."
Oops!
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| User: "catshark" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 06:16:49 AM |
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On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:30:12 -0500, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------
Lawyers on both sides of the Dover schools controversy spoke at
Elizabethtown.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Wednesday, March 2, 2005
The ACLU and Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., have already
gone toe-to-toe a couple of times in court over the intelligent design
controversy surrounding the Dover Area School District.
During its regular meeting on Oct 18, the board voted 6-3 to allow
changes to their biology curriculum that reads: "Students will be made
aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's Theory and of other theories of
evolution including, but not limited to intelligent design. Note:
Origins of life will not be taught."
Opponents of the decision say it violates their Constitutional right
to a separation of church and state. Supporters say the theory is a
legitimate scientific alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution,
which they say has serious gaps and problems.
On Tuesday afternoon, Richard Thompson from Thomas More and Vic
Walczak from the American Civil Liberties Union went at each other
again at Elizabethtown College.
The school hosted a series of debates on intelligent design, one of
which featured a three-hour session with Thompson and Walczak. They
were each given 45 minutes to make their arguments. Then they were
given 10 minutes for rebuttal.
---------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/60323/
Here is the problem right here:
Sophomore Justin Shoemaker said he saw only a slight connection
between intelligent design and religion.
"The connection is so loose. Why don't the teachers just present
both sides and let the students decide which is right?" he asked.
Pretty much for the same reason we don't let 13 year olds in a hygiene
class decide whether or not the germ theory of disease is right.
A highschool student who cannot distinguish the difference among science,
philosophy and religion is not well educated.
--
---------------
J. Pieret
---------------
To what ridiculous theories will men of science be
led by attempting to reconcile science to scripture!
- Alfred Russel Wallace -
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| User: "TomS" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 07:04:14 AM |
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"On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:16:49 -0500, in article
<ravd21pmurhg2dhknfispn7e196r8894li@4ax.com>, catshark stated..."
On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 02:30:12 -0500, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------
Lawyers on both sides of the Dover schools controversy spoke at
Elizabethtown.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Wednesday, March 2, 2005
The ACLU and Thomas More Law Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., have already
gone toe-to-toe a couple of times in court over the intelligent design
controversy surrounding the Dover Area School District.
During its regular meeting on Oct 18, the board voted 6-3 to allow
changes to their biology curriculum that reads: "Students will be made
aware of gaps/problems in Darwin's Theory and of other theories of
evolution including, but not limited to intelligent design. Note:
Origins of life will not be taught."
Opponents of the decision say it violates their Constitutional right
to a separation of church and state. Supporters say the theory is a
legitimate scientific alternative to Darwin's theory of evolution,
which they say has serious gaps and problems.
On Tuesday afternoon, Richard Thompson from Thomas More and Vic
Walczak from the American Civil Liberties Union went at each other
again at Elizabethtown College.
The school hosted a series of debates on intelligent design, one of
which featured a three-hour session with Thompson and Walczak. They
were each given 45 minutes to make their arguments. Then they were
given 10 minutes for rebuttal.
---------------------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/doverbiology/60323/
Here is the problem right here:
Sophomore Justin Shoemaker said he saw only a slight connection
between intelligent design and religion.
"The connection is so loose. Why don't the teachers just present
both sides and let the students decide which is right?" he asked.
Pretty much for the same reason we don't let 13 year olds in a hygiene
class decide whether or not the germ theory of disease is right.
A highschool student who cannot distinguish the difference among science,
philosophy and religion is not well educated.
Why not just present both sides, and let the students decide?
For one thing, there aren't two, and only two, sides to the
issue. There are many different answers, including some unconventional
scientific theories of evolution, and -- as surely anyone knows -- a
very large number of different approaches on the philosophical or
religious side. It cannot be a matter of "both sides". The students
-- and others -- who have gotten the impression that there are only
two sides have been ill-informed.
And, as has been brought up plenty of times, "intelligent
design" does *not* represent an alternative to biological
evolution. Several of the advocates of ID appear to accept a
lot of common descent (for example the idea that humans, chimps,
and other apes are physically related). Aside from that, ID is
not yet articulated enough for there to be something to teach.
If there is "another side" to evolutionary biology, then it is
not to be found in ID -- so what is "the other side"?
For another, if religious beliefs are going to be addressed in
a science class, this will give the impression that religious
beliefs are *appropriately* addressed by scientists. Students --
and their parents -- should be prepared to have their religious
ideas scientifically scrutinized. Unfortunately, those students
who come from homes where religious beliefs are considered to be
of a different order -- about morality, or about a personal
committment to one's Lord -- might well find this sort of thing
improper.
--
---Tom S. <http://talkreason.org/articles/chickegg.cfm>
"It being as impossible that the Organized Body of a Chicken should by the Power
of any Mechanical Motions be formed out of the unorganized Matter of an Egg; as
that the Sun, Moon and Stars, should by mere Mechanism arise out of a Chaos."
Samuel Clarke (1675-1729) Second Defense...Immortality of the Soul
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 09:00:38 AM |
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TomS wrote:
Why not just present both sides, and let the students decide?
First off because they want it taught as a science. It isn't. All it
is is a denial of Evolution based upon religious nonsence. You might
get away with teaching it as a philosophy, but it has nothing to do
with science.
Secondly, students are not often mature enough to "decide" what is
correct and what isn't. That's why we don't just cut them loose to
fend for themselves as soon as they are big enough. They need
guidance. If the IDers think students are that smart then why do they
worry so about teaching them evolution? Surely the student can decide
for themselves that it is wrong, if it is, and the student is that
smart.
jwk
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: ID debate continues at college |
03 Mar 2005 04:50:13 PM |
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"jwk" <jwkinraleigh@yahoo.com> wrote
TomS wrote:
Why not just present both sides, and let the students decide?
First off because they want it taught as a science. It isn't.
I think that's reason enough right there.
There is no "theory" of intelligent design or creation. There is
nothing to teach. We're talking about a science class here, not
a theology class.
You don't teach the anatomy of unicorns or dragons in biology.
They don't teach the battles of Middle Earth in history classes
either.
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