Religions > Atheism > In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
24 Nov 2005 03:33:37 AM |
| Object: |
In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
From the article:
------------------------------------------------------------
By Matt Krasnowski
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
4:31 p.m. November 23, 2005
LOS ANGELES – The college plans of six students at a Murietta school
have sparked a lawsuit that could have implications for academia
nationwide.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses –
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" – do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
The complaint, pushed by the Association of Christian Schools
International, alleges the university's decision violates the First
Amendment religious-practice rights of the students, including two who
plan to attend UC San Diego.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051123-1631-cnsuc-lawsuit.html
J. Spaceman
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 05:53:29 AM |
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"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:kdcao1pmpic63k5i8qnkh8smqu88ntco8a@4ax.com...
From the article:
[...]
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses -
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" - do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
[...]
Read it at
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051123-1631-cnsuc-lawsuit.html
From the article:
----
Among the rejected courses were biology classes with texts by A Beka Book
and Bob Jones University Press, both conservative Christian publishers.
Courses titled "Special Providence: American Government," and "Christianity
and Morality in American Literature," were also rejected.
The lawsuit argues it is unfair these courses were nixed while others titled
"Western Civilization: The Jewish Experience," and "Intro to Buddhism," were
approved.
Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at Virginia-based First Amendment Center at
the Freedom Forum, said the supporters might have a valid complaint.
"I think the university has the right to require entering students to have a
foundation on the subjects the university thinks help provide a preparation
for higher education," he said "But I think the schools have a point when
they say other courses from other institutions are allowed in, but when a
course has 'Christian' in the title it seems to raise a red flag."
----
With the exception of the bogus biology texts, I think the ACLU, for
example, would side with the plaintiff. If any religiously themed social
studies courses are allowed, then certainly Christian-themed courses should
be allowed, depending on close examination of course material. But
obviously, religiously themed science is unacceptable if they're teaching
variations on creationism.
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| User: "Roger Coppock" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 07:45:09 AM |
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"The lawsuit argues it is unfair these courses were nixed while others
titled "Western Civilization: The Jewish Experience," and "Intro to
Buddhism," were approved."
What the article does not tell us is, "WHAT requirement were
these courses approved for?"
Also,
"Courses titled "Special Providence: American Government," and
"Christianity
and Morality in American Literature," were also rejected."
What the article does not tell us is, "WHAT requirement did
Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta claim these
courses met?"
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| User: "Emma Pease" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
25 Nov 2005 11:49:58 PM |
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In article <1132818309.625262.168480@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Roger Coppock wrote:
"The lawsuit argues it is unfair these courses were nixed while others
titled "Western Civilization: The Jewish Experience," and "Intro to
Buddhism," were approved."
What the article does not tell us is, "WHAT requirement were
these courses approved for?"
Also,
"Courses titled "Special Providence: American Government," and
"Christianity
and Morality in American Literature," were also rejected."
What the article does not tell us is, "WHAT requirement did
Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta claim these
courses met?"
The UC system does seem to have tightened up its requirements recently
but a course in Literature might be either in the English college prep
category or in the electives category
Also just as science courses cannot contain bad science so can history
courses not contain bad history. Also the courses could have been
judged not to be tough enough or too narrow or they failed to provide
sufficient information.
I did a bit of a hunt when this first hit the news several months ago.
There are plenty of Christian schools associated with the ACSI (the
association to which the plaintiffs' schools belong and which is joining
in the lawsuit) that did have their biology and other courses
approved. You can do your own hunting at
http://www.ucop.edu/doorways/
And some Christian named courses were accepted, for example
Bakersfield Christian High School (which is a member of ACSI) has
approved courses (in the elective category) on "Biblical Literature"
and "New Testament Literature". Woodcrest Christian school, another
ACSI member, has approved courses entitled "Judeo-Christian
Philosophy" and "Biblical History & Cultures" (again in the elective
category).
Some examples of approved (and non-approved) courses can be found at
http://pathstat1.ucop.edu/ag/course_descriptions/index.html
Note that students who don't/can't take pre-approved courses are
probably in the same boat as home schooled students or out-of-state
students as far as proving they are ready and I know the UC system
accepts students in both categories.
There appear to be two other ways of California students proving
eligibility:
Q: What are the requirements for my home schooled student to become
Eligible by Examination Alone?
A: A student who does not follow a traditional path to UC
eligibility or does not meet the Subject and Scholarship
requirements may become Eligible by Examination Alone. If a student
meets the eligibility criteria articulated below, he/she becomes
statewide eligible (i.e., eligible to all UC campuses). However,
eligibility simply means that the student is guaranteed a spot in
the system, not necessarily at the campus of his/her choice.
To qualify by examination alone, a student must achieve a total
score of at least 1400 on the SAT I or a composite score of 31 or
higher on the ACT. The total score on the three SAT II: Subject
Tests must be 1760 or higher, with a minimum score of 530 on each
test.
Q: What if my home schooled student does not meet the Eligibility
by Examination Alone criteria? Is there another path to UC
admissions?
A: Yes. Students who do not meet the Eligibility by Examination
Alone criteria in order to become statewide eligible (to all UC
campuses), may still apply to the University and hope to be
admitted by exception. To do so, students should do everything
possible to demonstrate subject matter competency in each of the
a-g subject areas by taking SAT II subject area exams and/or
community college courses. They should also take the SAT I or ACT
exam. In their applications, students should demonstrate other
skills and strengths, whether in leadership, community service,
athletics, the arts, or other areas.
http://pathstat1.ucop.edu/servlet/StoneGround?templateName=faq/index#C68
Emma
ps. I have a few pointers at
http://www.stanford.edu/~emma/UC/
including a copy of the plaintiff's complaint
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 10:33:33 AM |
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Dale wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:kdcao1pmpic63k5i8qnkh8smqu88ntco8a@4ax.com...
From the article:
[...]
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses -
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" - do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
[...]
Read it at
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051123-1631-cnsuc-lawsuit.html
From the article:
----
Among the rejected courses were biology classes with texts by A Beka Book
and Bob Jones University Press, both conservative Christian publishers.
Courses titled "Special Providence: American Government," and "Christianity
and Morality in American Literature," were also rejected.
The lawsuit argues it is unfair these courses were nixed while others titled
"Western Civilization: The Jewish Experience," and "Intro to Buddhism," were
approved.
Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at Virginia-based First Amendment Center at
the Freedom Forum, said the supporters might have a valid complaint.
"I think the university has the right to require entering students to have a
foundation on the subjects the university thinks help provide a preparation
for higher education," he said "But I think the schools have a point when
they say other courses from other institutions are allowed in, but when a
course has 'Christian' in the title it seems to raise a red flag."
----
With the exception of the bogus biology texts, I think the ACLU, for
example, would side with the plaintiff. If any religiously themed social
studies courses are allowed, then certainly Christian-themed courses should
be allowed, depending on close examination of course material. But
obviously, religiously themed science is unacceptable if they're teaching
variations on creationism.
Well, I don't know how much you can tell from the name. The biology one,
for example, uses a Creationist book that distorts and misrepresents
science. It is entirely reasonable that the other courses from this
school had similar lack of merit.
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| User: "Emma Pease" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
27 Nov 2005 10:29:36 PM |
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In article <dm44tp$mlo$2@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, Ash wrote:
Dale wrote:
With the exception of the bogus biology texts, I think the ACLU, for
example, would side with the plaintiff. If any religiously themed social
studies courses are allowed, then certainly Christian-themed courses should
be allowed, depending on close examination of course material. But
obviously, religiously themed science is unacceptable if they're teaching
variations on creationism.
Well, I don't know how much you can tell from the name. The biology one,
for example, uses a Creationist book that distorts and misrepresents
science. It is entirely reasonable that the other courses from this
school had similar lack of merit.
I've taken a closer look at the complaint.
On the English course, "Christianity and Morality in American
Literature", UC cited
1. Lacking necessary course info
2. Insufficient academic/theoretical content (need details to
determine which books on the reading list are read in their entirety)
3. Other: "Unfortunately, this course, while it has an interesting
reading list, does not offer a non-biased approach to the subject
matter. See comments.
Comments: Outline is vague and lacks detail. Textbook is not
appropriate. There is not activities or assignments that tie to the
supplemental reading."
The primary text was "American Literature: Classics for Christians,
vol. 5" A Beka
The course outline listed lots of authors but not which texts they
would be reading (and for an American literature class it is odd that
9 of the 12 supplemental readings were written in England by English
authors and 1 was French). I think UC was fully justified in
rejecting the course.
Also it looks like the above course was first submitted as a history
course then resubmitted as English (though the UC system may have made
the mix up).
First the requirements for the history/social science course
(a) History/Social Science-Two years required, including
one year of world history, cultures, and geography and one year of
U.S. history or one-half year of U.S. history and one-half year of
civics or American government.
A social science course, "Christianity's Influences on America" had
more info than the English course.
Rejected for
1. Focus too narrow [note this was not submitted in the elective area
where narrower focus is allowable]
2. "In establishing and implementing the a-g subject area
requirements, UC faculty's main interest is that students entering the
Unviversity are well prepared to be successful at UC. The content of
the course outline submitted for approval is not consistent with the
empirical historical knowledge generally accepted in the collegiate
community. As such students who take these courses may not be well
prepareed for success if/when they enter history-social science
courses/programs at UC."
The two main textbooks listed are
"United States History for Christian Schools" BJU Press 2001
"Pilgrims in Their Own Land: 500 years of Religion in America" by
Martin Marty 1985
The latter text seems to have reasonable reviews. The former, well
one (Catholic) site stated:
The following quote should help to illuminate Catholics on
the attitude of the authors toward our faith: "With such a lack of
spiritual leadership and the Romanist emphasis on works for salvation, it
is little wonder that the common people lived under such spiritual
bondage." (pg. 6)
ttp://www.love2learn.net/redflag/rfhist.htm
or as far as science
Rejection of biological evolution is a keystone in several fundamentalist
textbooks. Glen Chambers and Gene Fisher's 1982 United States History for
Christian Schools maintains that "Darwin's theory, or modifications of it,
have gained wide acceptance, despite the fact that the key premises are
unsupported by scientific law or investigation.... The main selling point
for evolution is not that it has abundant support, but that it explains the
universe without referring to God, and so it relieves man of any
responsibility to his Creator."
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2580_v122/ai_13266603
BTW one of the topics covered in the course is "Darwinism"
Another social science course, "Special Providence: Christianity and
the American Republic". Well it probably didn't help that the course
description started with a supposed quote by James Madison that he
apparently never said (though UC didn't point this out in their
rejection[1]).
Rejected for
1. Lacking necessary course information: insufficient info on texts
and/or instructional materials.
2. Government courses usually are granted a semester's credit only
3. "In establishing and implementing the a-g subject area
requirements, UC faculty's main interest is that students entering the
Unviversity are well prepared to be successful at UC. The content of
the course outline submitted for approval is not consistent with the
empirical historical knowledge generally accepted in the collegiate
community. As such students who take these courses may not be well
prepareed for success if/when they enter history-social science
courses/programs at UC."
Text seems to be "American Government for Christian Schools" BJU Press
(1999)
It is odd they apparently didn't include among the exhibits their
submission and UC's rejection of their biology course.
Emma
[1] http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp with more info
at http://members.tripod.com/~candst/misq1.htm
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
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| User: "Robert Grumbine" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
29 Nov 2005 02:43:45 PM |
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In article <slrndokcqg.sb2.emma@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
Emma Pease <emma+usenet@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
Nice bit of research. Thanks for injecting some fact into the
dicsussion.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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| User: "Emma Pease" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
01 Dec 2005 01:51:36 AM |
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In article <11ooq91snmndv34@corp.supernews.com>, Robert Grumbine wrote:
In article <slrndokcqg.sb2.emma@munin.Stanford.EDU>,
Emma Pease <emma+usenet@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
Nice bit of research. Thanks for injecting some fact into the
dicsussion.
Thanks,
Still hunting. The UC Berkeley News had an article back in September
on the issue
Linkname: 10.05.2005 - In the matter of Scripture v. scholarship
URL: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2005/10/05_textbooks.shtml
with some quite useful info
....
UC also disallows science courses that rely solely on BJU and A Beka
Books textbooks. At issue, the fact sheet says, "is not whether they
have religious content, but whether they provide a comprehensive view
of the relevant subject matter...." In the BJU Press and A Beka Books
science textbooks, it goes on, "the publishers themselves acknowledge
that the primary goal is to teach religious doctrine rather than the
scholarship that is generally accepted in the relevant fields of
study."
The introduction to Biology for Christian Schools (2nd Edition, BJU
Press) clearly states, for instance, that students' conclusions must
conform to the Bible and that scientific material and methods are
secondary: "The people who have prepared this book have tried
consistently to put the Word of God first and science second. To the
best of the author's knowledge, the conclusions drawn from observable
facts that are presented in this book agree with the Scriptures. If a
mistake has been made (which is probable since this book was prepared
by humans) and at any point God's Word is not put first, the author
apologizes."
....
Haven't managed to find the UC fact sheet though.
Emma
--
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|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
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| User: "A.Carlson" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 10:02:51 AM |
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On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 05:53:29 GMT, "Dale" <dmgreer@nspm.airmail.net>
wrote:
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:kdcao1pmpic63k5i8qnkh8smqu88ntco8a@4ax.com...
From the article:
[...]
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses -
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" - do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
[...]
Read it at
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051123-1631-cnsuc-lawsuit.html
From the article:
----
Among the rejected courses were biology classes with texts by A Beka Book
and Bob Jones University Press, both conservative Christian publishers.
Courses titled "Special Providence: American Government," and "Christianity
and Morality in American Literature," were also rejected.
The lawsuit argues it is unfair these courses were nixed while others titled
"Western Civilization: The Jewish Experience," and "Intro to Buddhism," were
approved.
Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at Virginia-based First Amendment Center at
the Freedom Forum, said the supporters might have a valid complaint.
"I think the university has the right to require entering students to have a
foundation on the subjects the university thinks help provide a preparation
for higher education," he said "But I think the schools have a point when
they say other courses from other institutions are allowed in, but when a
course has 'Christian' in the title it seems to raise a red flag."
As well it should raise a red flag. Fundamentalists in particular
tend to be more exclusive than inclusive in their approach to such
subjects, going out of their way to try and show that this is *their*
country, founded on *their* principles and should remain so.
My guess would be that the purpose behind the Jewish and Buddhist
titles listed wasn't to indicate that theirs was *the* pathway but
more of a different slice of life. They're not trying to sell their
positions as 'the way things ought to be' like so many fundamentalists
are. This article left out the point that the state school system
considers these courses that fundamentalists were pushing here lacked
a "non-biased approach". Will wonders never cease.
"If conclusions contradict the word of God, the conclusions
are wrong no matter how many scientific facts may appear
to back them."
- Preface to Bob Jones University's biology textbook
And they actually wonder why people might have a problem with their
approach!
With the exception of the bogus biology texts, I think the ACLU, for
example, would side with the plaintiff. If any religiously themed social
studies courses are allowed, then certainly Christian-themed courses should
be allowed, depending on close examination of course material. But
obviously, religiously themed science is unacceptable if they're teaching
variations on creationism.
Of course we're not talking about the ACLU here but a conservative
Christian version of it. I would think that the ACLU would see right
through their ruse and see that these particular courses in question
are more religious agenda driven than they should be.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
28 Nov 2005 02:45:31 PM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------------------------
By Matt Krasnowski
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
4:31 p.m. November 23, 2005
LOS ANGELES – The college plans of six students at a Murietta school
have sparked a lawsuit that could have implications for academia
nationwide.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses –
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" – do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
The complaint, pushed by the Association of Christian Schools
International, alleges the university's decision violates the First
Amendment religious-practice rights of the students, including two who
plan to attend UC San Diego.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051123-1631-cnsuc-lawsuit.html
It has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with not accepting
unaccredited coursework. As long as the school refused to accept "Underwater
Basketweaving," "The Klan's History Of America" and other secular
non-accredited curricula, the school will win easily.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[W]e have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted
state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection
Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons."
- Sandra Day O`Conner, _Lawrence v Texas_
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=02-102
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 10:30:54 AM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------------------------
By Matt Krasnowski
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
4:31 p.m. November 23, 2005
LOS ANGELES – The college plans of six students at a Murietta school
have sparked a lawsuit that could have implications for academia
nationwide.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses –
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" – do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
The complaint, pushed by the Association of Christian Schools
International, alleges the university's decision violates the First
Amendment religious-practice rights of the students, including two who
plan to attend UC San Diego.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone from the US reassure me that there is no chance of this winning?
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| User: "Roger Coppock" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 11:58:45 AM |
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"Can someone from the US reassure me that there is no chance of this
winning?"
No, sadly, we Americans can't make any assurances for the
sanity of our legal 'system.' At the rate things are going,
in a decade or two Bob Jones 'University' will be writing our
law books, too. Please, plan for an influx of American
refugees.
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| User: "Part_Time_Troll" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
28 Nov 2005 04:55:18 AM |
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"Roger Coppock" <rcoppock@adnc.com> in news:1132833525.310265.100150@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
No, sadly, we Americans can't make any assurances for the
sanity of our legal 'system.' At the rate things are going,
in a decade or two Bob Jones 'University' will be writing our
law books, too.
wa ha haha.
thanks :-)
--
http://web.archive.org/web/20041128092857/http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshoot28_20041028.htm
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| User: "Robert Grumbine" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 01:37:27 PM |
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In article <dm44or$mlo$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>,
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------------------------------------
By Matt Krasnowski
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
4:31 p.m. November 23, 2005
LOS ANGELES – The college plans of six students at a Murietta school
have sparked a lawsuit that could have implications for academia
nationwide.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses –
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" – do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
The complaint, pushed by the Association of Christian Schools
International, alleges the university's decision violates the First
Amendment religious-practice rights of the students, including two who
plan to attend UC San Diego.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone from the US reassure me that there is no chance of this winning?
No, we can't. Two reasons. First is the general rule that 'once
things go to court, there's no telling what will happen'. Second is,
there's so little interest in academic standards or content that
there may not be sufficient grounds for the universities to win a
claim that such 'courses' fail to meet the standards.
Seriously, one of my first thoughts on hearing about the case
was 'You mean they _have_ standards?'. There have been other
cases involving home education and public schools (previously,
as far as I know, they've been K-12 grades, not college) taking
students from the home schools. Home schooling has generally
(always, afaik) won, usually on grounds (again, afaik) that the
public schools either didn't have relevant standards, or were
demonstrably not meeting them either.
If the plaintiffs rely solely on the first amendment argument,
I think there's a fair chance they'll lose. If they bring up
(and support) the argument that the schools accept many students who don't
meet the so-called standards (say by demonstrably not knowing
any more about evolution than the home-schooled), so that they
are being discriminated against solely on basis of religion,
they'll probably win, imho.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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| User: "Roger Coppock" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 06:58:49 PM |
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" Seriously, one of my first thoughts on hearing about the case
was 'You mean they _have_ standards?'. There have been other
cases involving home education and public schools (previously,
as far as I know, they've been K-12 grades, not college) taking
students from the home schools. Home schooling has generally
(always, afaik) won, usually on grounds (again, afaik) that the
public schools either didn't have relevant standards, or were
demonstrably not meeting them either. "
Very interesting, Robert. As I think you know, I home school my
14-year-old son. Would you please cite some named examples
of these lawsuits?
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| User: "Andrew McClure" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
27 Nov 2005 11:03:16 PM |
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Robert Grumbine wrote:
I think there's a fair chance they'll lose. If they bring up
(and support) the argument that the schools accept many students who don't
meet the so-called standards (say by demonstrably not knowing
any more about evolution than the home-schooled), so that they
are being discriminated against solely on basis of religion,
they'll probably win, imho.
The standards aren't being applied against students, though, they're
being applied against *the courses themselves*. If these kids were
homeschooled they'd probably actually have an easier time-- but they're
not, so the students themselves don't really matter.
And the standards themselves are not in any way religious, or
religiously applied-- the standards are about course quality. What's
really happening here is that the Christian schools are trying to claim
they should receive *positive* discrimination *because* they are
Christian-- I.E., because the standards were broken on purpose for
Christian purposes, the standards should be lifted in this case even
though they would be fully applied had the standards been broken due to
sheer incompetence. Since the standards themselves are religiously
neutral, and because (as noted elsewhere in this thread) other
explicitly religious courses, including Christian religious courses,
are allowed for course credit when they satisfy the standards, I do not
see any way they could honestly make the case religion is being in any
way targeted here.
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| User: "Robert Grumbine" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
28 Nov 2005 12:59:38 PM |
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In article <1133132596.842127.160150@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McClure <amcclure@purdue.edu> wrote:
Robert Grumbine wrote:
I think there's a fair chance they'll lose. If they bring up
(and support) the argument that the schools accept many students who don't
meet the so-called standards (say by demonstrably not knowing
any more about evolution than the home-schooled), so that they
are being discriminated against solely on basis of religion,
they'll probably win, imho.
The standards aren't being applied against students, though, they're
being applied against *the courses themselves*. If these kids were
homeschooled they'd probably actually have an easier time-- but they're
not, so the students themselves don't really matter.
And the standards themselves are not in any way religious, or
religiously applied-- the standards are about course quality.
Take a look at the responses Emma Pease has posted from the
court filing. The classes are being rejected for their form --
textbooks judged inadequate, lack of elements in the class plans,
and the like.
A defense is simply to demonstrate that graduates of
compliant-in-form classes don't know the form's content any
better than the YEC courses' graduates. If the result is no
different, then the YEC 'programs' are demonstrably adequate --
it being already given that the state considers those other
programs to be adequate.
As I said in the snip -- if they argue solely that it's first
amendment, I think they'll lose. You're not disagreeing with
me on that. If they argue on the content, perhaps with a filip of
'plus you don't like us True Christians', I think they'll win.
The solution isn't that I think the courses should be accepted.
It's that the public courses should be taught well and students
actually expected to learn material. As it is, I expect enough
public courses are taught badly enough that the graduates don't
know much of the material. So a bad course from a bad book can
produce equally ignorant graduates. Raise the bar. Teach and
require learning of enough material that a bad book _does_ mean
that students on which it is inflicted can't learn enough to match
performance of the public school students.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
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| User: "David Jensen" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Lawsuit over UC admissions becoming national fight |
24 Nov 2005 04:19:59 AM |
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On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:33:37 -0500, in alt.atheism
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in
<kdcao1pmpic63k5i8qnkh8smqu88ntco8a@4ax.com>:
From the article:
------------------------------------------------------------
By Matt Krasnowski
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE
4:31 p.m. November 23, 2005
LOS ANGELES – The college plans of six students at a Murietta school
have sparked a lawsuit that could have implications for academia
nationwide.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, contends
that officials with the University of California system discriminated
against students from Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murietta when
they decided that some of the school's religious-viewpoint courses –
such as "Christianity's Influence on American History" – do not meet
the UC system's admissions standards.
The complaint, pushed by the Association of Christian Schools
International, alleges the university's decision violates the First
Amendment religious-practice rights of the students, including two who
plan to attend UC San Diego.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20051123-1631-cnsuc-lawsuit.html
It's amazing how delusional some folks are when it comes to their
religion. No, you do not have the right to replace a real education with
a fake one and expect real colleges to think you have an education.
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