| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
10 Jun 2004 04:37:58 PM |
| Object: |
In the News: Residents join creation debate |
From the article:
------------------------------
A school board member's objection to evolution raises worries about curriculum.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Thursday, June 10, 2004
Robert Bowman of Dover is a Christian man. But after reading about the Dover Area
School Board's desire to have theories of creation taught alongside of evolution in
his daughter's biology class, he still saw a potential for problems in the
classroom.
"It seems like Bill (school board member William Buckingham) wants more of a church
thing to be going on in school," Bowman said. "But there are a lot of different
beliefs even among those that call themselves Christian. Which school board member
is going to declare whose version is right?"
During this past Monday night's board meeting, board members Alan Bonsell, Noel
Wenrich and Buckingham spoke aggressively in favor of having a biology book that
includes theories of creation as part of the text.
"All I'm asking for is balance," Buckingham said.
Asked if he thought this might violate the separation of church and state, Buckingham
called the law, "a myth."
-----------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
J. Spaceman
--
My email address (notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org) is fake. Email sent to it will
only get caught in my spam tarpit.
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| User: "Eric Pepke" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 03:44:53 AM |
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I was interested there for a second. I thought The Resdents had joined
the creation debate.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 01:22:38 AM |
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In article <2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
------------------------------
A school board member's objection to evolution raises worries about
curriculum.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Thursday, June 10, 2004
Robert Bowman of Dover is a Christian man. But after reading about the Dover
Area
School Board's desire to have theories of creation taught alongside of
evolution in
his daughter's biology class, he still saw a potential for problems in the
classroom.
"It seems like Bill (school board member William Buckingham) wants more of a
church
thing to be going on in school," Bowman said. "But there are a lot of
different
beliefs even among those that call themselves Christian. Which school board
member
is going to declare whose version is right?"
During this past Monday night's board meeting, board members Alan Bonsell,
Noel
Wenrich and Buckingham spoke aggressively in favor of having a biology book
that
includes theories of creation as part of the text.
"All I'm asking for is balance," Buckingham said.
Asked if he thought this might violate the separation of church and state,
Buckingham
called the law, "a myth."
I wonder how this guy would feel if a law were enacted which mandated
that every time his minister gave a sermon on Genesis, a government
sponsored non-believer biologist would be required to give a seminar on
evolution in his church on the following Sunday. After all, that's
'balance' and he shouldn't object because he doesn't believe in
separation of church and state.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Men become civilized not in their willingness to believe, but in
proportion to their readiness to doubt." - H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Harry K" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 09:03:38 AM |
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Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message news:<2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de>...
From the article:
------------------------------
A school board member's objection to evolution raises worries about curriculum.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Thursday, June 10, 2004
Robert Bowman of Dover is a Christian man. But after reading about the Dover Area
School Board's desire to have theories of creation taught alongside of evolution in
his daughter's biology class, he still saw a potential for problems in the
classroom.
"It seems like Bill (school board member William Buckingham) wants more of a church
thing to be going on in school," Bowman said. "But there are a lot of different
beliefs even among those that call themselves Christian. Which school board member
is going to declare whose version is right?"
During this past Monday night's board meeting, board members Alan Bonsell, Noel
Wenrich and Buckingham spoke aggressively in favor of having a biology book that
includes theories of creation as part of the text.
"All I'm asking for is balance," Buckingham said.
Asked if he thought this might violate the separation of church and state, Buckingham
called the law, "a myth."
-----------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
J. Spaceman
I would think that a book that teaches both will be impossible to find.
Harry K
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| User: "EjP" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 10:30:02 AM |
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Harry K wrote:
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message news:<2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de>...
From the article:
------------------------------
A school board member's objection to evolution raises worries about curriculum.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Thursday, June 10, 2004
Robert Bowman of Dover is a Christian man. But after reading about the Dover Area
School Board's desire to have theories of creation taught alongside of evolution in
his daughter's biology class, he still saw a potential for problems in the
classroom.
"It seems like Bill (school board member William Buckingham) wants more of a church
thing to be going on in school," Bowman said. "But there are a lot of different
beliefs even among those that call themselves Christian. Which school board member
is going to declare whose version is right?"
During this past Monday night's board meeting, board members Alan Bonsell, Noel
Wenrich and Buckingham spoke aggressively in favor of having a biology book that
includes theories of creation as part of the text.
"All I'm asking for is balance," Buckingham said.
Asked if he thought this might violate the separation of church and state, Buckingham
called the law, "a myth."
-----------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
J. Spaceman
I would think that a book that teaches both will be impossible to find.
Harry K
Don't bet on it. Textbook companies are a business just like everyone
else. If the fundies generate a market, you can bet there'll be
textbooks tailor made to fill it.
I recall a brief period of "equal time" when I was in the 8th grade.
My science teacher walked into the room, obviously annoyed, and
grumbled, "I'm supposed to teach you 'alternate theories' for how the
Earth and life began. Some people think they were both made by God.
There, that's about all there is to say about it.".
-E
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| User: "VoiceOfReason" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 11:53:53 PM |
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Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message news:<2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de>...
From the article:
------------------------------
A school board member's objection to evolution raises worries about curriculum.
By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Thursday, June 10, 2004
Robert Bowman of Dover is a Christian man. But after reading about the Dover Area
School Board's desire to have theories of creation taught alongside of evolution in
his daughter's biology class, he still saw a potential for problems in the
classroom.
"It seems like Bill (school board member William Buckingham) wants more of a church
thing to be going on in school," Bowman said. "But there are a lot of different
beliefs even among those that call themselves Christian. Which school board member
is going to declare whose version is right?"
During this past Monday night's board meeting, board members Alan Bonsell, Noel
Wenrich and Buckingham spoke aggressively in favor of having a biology book that
includes theories of creation as part of the text.
"All I'm asking for is balance," Buckingham said.
Asked if he thought this might violate the separation of church and state, Buckingham
called the law, "a myth."
-----------------------------------
Read it at http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
"A myth"? The guy is utterly clueless, or just a typical lying
fundie. Another report on this situation:
-----------------------------------
Group: Dover schools could face lawsuit
Says it's a textbook case of church, state separation
By HEIDI BERNHARD-BUBB For The York Dispatch
The quest of several Dover Area School Board members to find a high
school biology textbook that teaches both evolution and creationism
could put the district at odds with the U.S. Supreme Court and at risk
of a lawsuit.
William Buckingham, a board member and head of the curriculum
committee, said this week he was disturbed by a proposed high school
biology textbook, the 2002 edition of Prentice Hall Biology, because
it was laced with Darwinism.
Board member Noel Wenrich agreed.
The book was initially selected by the high school science department
and district administration to replace the current textbook, which is
six years old and out of date in some areas.
A recommendation on the book will come from the curriculum committee,
which also includes board members Sheila Harkins and Casey Brown.
Buckingham said the committee would look for a book that presented
both creationism and evolution.
However, teaching creationism may get the district in trouble.
Robert Boston, spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church
and State, said the district will be inviting a lawsuit if it chooses
a textbook that teaches creationism.
"Creationism isn't a science, it's religion, and any attempts to
introduce creationism into public school science classes would most
likely spark a lawsuit," Boston said. "The district would almost
certainly lose a lawsuit like that. It's not even worth wasting the
time and energy to consider."
The Washington, D.C.-based group is leading the charge in Hanover to
remove a monument to the Ten Commandments from the borough-owned Wirt
Park.
Americans United sent a letter to the borough council in November,
saying the monument violates the First Amendment and asking that it be
removed from public land, where it has been since the 1950s.
The letter sparked strong public response, as residents signed
petitions and held a vigil asking the borough not to move the
monument.
At the suggestion of State Rep. Steve Nickol, the council petitioned
the York County Common Pleas Court for permission to sell the monument
and the land on which it sits to a nonprofit organization, so that it
will no longer be on public property. Judge Gregory Snyder will hear
Hanover's arguments at 9 a.m. Monday.
Previous cases: In 1987, the U.S. Supreme Court rejected the teaching
of creationism in public school as a violation of the separation of
church and state.
But Buckingham said he is unconcerned about violating the separation
of church and state.
Although he swore to uphold the Constitution when he became a school
board member, Buckingham said he didn't come to uphold the separation
of church and state, which he sees as a myth and the Supreme Court's
interpretation.
Also, the Pennsylvania Department of Education high school science
standards require the teaching of evolution.
Assistant Superintendent Michael Baksa said the current textbook,
called Biology: The Living Science, and the school's science
curriculum teach evolution.
"We do not address the origins of life," he said. "The origin of life
is left to the personal beliefs of each family."
However, he said teachers may make reference to creationism in class
and the district would not prevent students from pursuing other
theories.
The district has not rejected the proposed new textbook, Baksa said,
but it will continue to look for a book that will make everyone happy.
However, he acknowledged that at the end of the day, the book has to
match state standards, which would mean a book that teaches evolution.
The other curriculum committee members stayed away from the
creationism issue.
Brown declined to comment, saying she will be making a public
statement on the issue at the next board meeting, at 7 p.m. Monday at
North Salem Elementary.
Harkins said she didn't think the high school needed a new science
textbook, saying the current one has hardly been used. She would not
comment on creationism .
The school board will have the final say on which textbook to use,
said Superintendent Richard Nilsen.
-----------------------------------
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| User: "Phil Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 01:18:47 AM |
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(VoiceOfReason) emerged reluctantly from the
curtain and staggered drunkenly up to the mic. In a cracked and
slurred voice he muttered:
"A myth"? The guy is utterly clueless, or just a typical lying
fundie. Another report on this situation:
I don't think the guy was denying the existance of the law itself,
but rather stating that true seperation of chruch and state has been
eroded to the point where it my as well be mythical.
--
Phil Roberts | Without me its just aweso. | http://www.flatnet.net/
"Killing Muslims is like beating up your girlfriend in front of
her kids. Soon enough one of them is gonna grow up and hit you
right back! Stupid!"
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 02:44:08 AM |
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Phil Roberts wrote:
papa_fox@cybertown.com (VoiceOfReason) emerged reluctantly from the
curtain and staggered drunkenly up to the mic. In a cracked and
slurred voice he muttered:
"A myth"? The guy is utterly clueless, or just a typical lying
fundie. Another report on this situation:
I don't think the guy was denying the existance of the law itself,
but rather stating that true seperation of chruch and state has been
eroded to the point where it my as well be mythical.
No. He is quoted as saying that he sees separation of church and state "as
a myth and the Supreme Court's interpretation"; he's making an "ought", not
an "is" comment.
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "Chris Thompson" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 11:08:56 AM |
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(VoiceOfReason) wrote in
news:78e3ae70.0406102053.6f87a2c8@posting.google.com:
Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:<2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de>...
From the article:
------------------------------
A school board member's objection to evolution raises worries about
curriculum. By JOSEPH MALDONADO
For the Daily Record/Sunday News
Thursday, June 10, 2004
snip
[School Board member] Harkins said she didn't think the high school
needed a new science textbook, saying the current one has hardly been
used.
Duh. This is a surprise? Look at what the schools have produced!
snip
The school board will have the final say on which textbook to use,
said Superintendent Richard Nilsen.
--
Chris
aa#2186
Black helicopter mind-control-ray door-gunner
-----
"We are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and
then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so
as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry
on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that
sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually
on a battlefield." --George Orwell, 1946, "Under Your Nose"
-----
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| User: "386sx" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 03:58:17 AM |
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Phil Roberts writes:
VoiceOfReason did a bunch of stuff:
"A myth"? The guy is utterly clueless, or just a typical lying fundie.
Another report on this situation:
I don't think the guy was denying the existance of the law itself, but
rather stating that true seperation of chruch and state has been eroded to
the point where it my as well be mythical.
Nope. It's called reconstructionism, and it's more popular than you might
suspect. One might even be tempted into calling it "televangelism" if it
weren't for their proliferation over the internet. They think the
Armageddon sky is falling, and they really do literally pretend to believe
that the whole wall of separation thing is a myth and that the U.S. is being
"tyrannized" by the Supreme Court, and that the "founding fathers" were a
bunch of superstitious clowns. (Just watch Pat Robertson's 700 Club
sometime, or have a look at www.coralridge.org if you'd like to see the
James Kennedy loon.) Here's a typical sort of fake "evidence" often put
forth by their ilk,
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefschl1.htm
--
"(note: several logical steps missing. Ignore these)." -- Heidi Bond
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| User: "Sarah Berel-Harrop" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 08:24:32 AM |
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"386sx" <moc.liamarepo_ta_xs683@reverse.net> wrote in message
news:m2n03aqzw6Xx386xX.fsf@jms.earth.net...
Phil Roberts writes:
VoiceOfReason did a bunch of stuff:
"A myth"? The guy is utterly clueless, or just a typical lying fundie.
Another report on this situation:
I don't think the guy was denying the existance of the law itself, but
rather stating that true seperation of chruch and state has been eroded
to
the point where it my as well be mythical.
Nope. It's called reconstructionism, and it's more popular than you might
suspect. One might even be tempted into calling it "televangelism" if it
weren't for their proliferation over the internet. They think the
Armageddon sky is falling, and they really do literally pretend to believe
that the whole wall of separation thing is a myth and that the U.S. is
being
"tyrannized" by the Supreme Court, and that the "founding fathers" were a
bunch of superstitious clowns. (Just watch Pat Robertson's 700 Club
sometime, or have a look at www.coralridge.org if you'd like to see the
James Kennedy loon.) Here's a typical sort of fake "evidence" often put
forth by their ilk,
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jefschl1.htm
David Barton, incidentally, is the vice chair for the
Texas Republican Party. Not surprisingly, the Texas
Republican party platform contains references to the
purported "Christian Nation" status of the US, the
"myth" of separation of church and state, etc. He's
very articulate, charismatic, and sends the assertions
out so rapidly it's hard to rebut without a great deal
of research, but he's quite misleading. For example,
he states that the US under a biblical worldview such
as the founders had higher educational standards within
the culture. He offers the federalist papers, which he
characterizes as letters to the editor. He says, gee, these
are so difficult, the people of that biblically-based time
must have been very literate and intelligent to process
such high quality letters to the editor. He fails to mention
that education was not universally available at that time.
Here's the Wallbuilders website:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/
Another interesting thing that Barton is doing - they are
compiling comparisons of platforms, republican and
democrat, along biblical lines. That is what's the
respective positions on marriage, abortion, etc. Then
take them to clergy serving groups not historically
republican, eg african-american pastors. Here is
the website for a group that was passing such pamphlets
out at the state convention
http://www.justiceatthegate.org/mission.cfm
Here's the wallbuilders platform comparison
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/misc/Platforms.pdf
In fact, I am pretty sure this was the pamphlet.
Interestingly, Barton does not mention his position with
the Republican party in his bio.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/aboutus/bio/index.htm
He does mention hie honorary degree from PCC which
we've discussed here on talk.origins before.
While I am not sure I would characterize it as
reconstructionism proper ( a call for a return to
levitical law ) I do see Wallbuilders and their
ilk as fellow travelers with reconstructionism.
It may well be an issue that Texas republicans may
wish to start looking into and writing to their precinct
chairs, SREC committee members, etc. about. Very
much, the party supports all of the hot-button issues
that fundamentalists & reconstructionists get excited
about. It's troubling that a coalition of conservative
Christian sects have such a strong control over this party.
I do not believe that the majority of republicans actually
believe these things. It's no longer the party of less
government and low taxes. It's the party of getting
everybody to become True Christians (TM).
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 08:52:25 AM |
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 13:24:32 +0000 (UTC), "Sarah Berel-Harrop"
<sec@hal-pc.org> wrote:
[snip]
It may well be an issue that Texas republicans may
wish to start looking into and writing to their precinct
chairs, SREC committee members, etc. about. Very
much, the party supports all of the hot-button issues
that fundamentalists & reconstructionists get excited
about. It's troubling that a coalition of conservative
Christian sects have such a strong control over this party.
I do not believe that the majority of republicans actually
believe these things. It's no longer the party of less
government and low taxes. It's the party of getting
everybody to become True Christians (TM).
I like the line from West Wing: the are tying to get the government
small enough to fit inside our bedrooms.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do in order to understand.
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| User: "Sarah Berel-Harrop" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
12 Jun 2004 12:47:44 PM |
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"Matt Silberstein" <matts2@ix.netcom.nospam> wrote in message
news:g7ejc0pe5a4ohpu18qordnvhir56gp5gie@4ax.com...
I like the line from West Wing: the are tying to get the government
small enough to fit inside our bedrooms.
It was amazing, Matt. It put me in mind of Pavlov's
dog. "Pro-life" - standing ovation. (This, I can
understand). "Traditional marriage" - Standing
ovation. Hardly anyone mentioned lowering our
taxes, and none of those statements got the reception
from the floor that the social hot-button buzzwords
got. The only problem with the quip is that as a
practical matter, the government actually gets bigger
and bigger (and so do the deficit budgets) under
so-called conservative regimes.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do in order to understand.
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| User: "386sx" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 07:58:44 PM |
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Sarah Berel-Harrop writes:
[...]
David Barton, incidentally, is the vice chair for the Texas Republican
Party. Not surprisingly, the Texas Republican party platform contains
references to the purported "Christian Nation" status of the US, the
"myth" of separation of church and state, etc. He's very articulate,
charismatic, and sends the assertions out so rapidly it's hard to rebut
without a great deal of research, but he's quite misleading. For example,
he states that the US under a biblical worldview such as the founders had
higher educational standards within the culture. He offers the federalist
papers, which he characterizes as letters to the editor. He says, gee,
these are so difficult, the people of that biblically-based time must have
been very literate and intelligent to process such high quality letters to
the editor. He fails to mention that education was not universally
available at that time.
Since, from what I've gathered from the Wallbuilders site, he agrees that
the papers were written by Hamilton and Madison and Jay, I'd say he's
engaged in some blatant dishonest cherry picking. (If what you say is
true.)
Here's the Wallbuilders website:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/
[...]
--
"(note: several logical steps missing. Ignore these)." -- Heidi Bond
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| User: "Sarah Berel-Harrop" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
12 Jun 2004 12:39:29 PM |
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"386sx" <moc.liamarepo_ta_xs683@reverse.net> wrote in message
news:m2u0xhiocaXx386xX.fsf@jms.earth.net...
Sarah Berel-Harrop writes:
[...]
David Barton, incidentally, is the vice chair for the Texas Republican
Party. Not surprisingly, the Texas Republican party platform contains
references to the purported "Christian Nation" status of the US, the
"myth" of separation of church and state, etc. He's very articulate,
charismatic, and sends the assertions out so rapidly it's hard to rebut
without a great deal of research, but he's quite misleading. For
example,
he states that the US under a biblical worldview such as the founders
had
higher educational standards within the culture. He offers the
federalist
papers, which he characterizes as letters to the editor. He says, gee,
these are so difficult, the people of that biblically-based time must
have
been very literate and intelligent to process such high quality letters
to
the editor. He fails to mention that education was not universally
available at that time.
Since, from what I've gathered from the Wallbuilders site, he agrees that
the papers were written by Hamilton and Madison and Jay, I'd say he's
engaged in some blatant dishonest cherry picking. (If what you say is
true.)
I am pretty sure it was on the tape Developing a Biblical World
View . I bought a bunch of materials last Saturday
afternoon when they were marked down to half
price. This was part of his argument, supported by
a bible quote of course, that you must start with fear
of god, something else, then add knowledge. That
knowledge without a biblical worldview is dangerous.
& he blames the purported purging of religion from
the public square for decreasing educational standards
as measured by proxies such as the quality of letters
to the editor (Federalist paper example) and declining
standardized test scores.
So he notes that children from Christian schools score
on Iowa and other tests at higher grade levels than
children in public schools. Incidentally a state rep speaking
of school finance in my senate district convention also
stated why is the average expenditure per child in
public schools higher than his annual tuition bill. Of
course any provider of last resort will have higher
prices and lower quality than providers who can
pick and choose their customers. Although I do think
defunding the football programs would go a long way
towards lowering costs, decreasing class ratios, and
increasing educational quality in Texas.
Barton also notes in this tape that test scores have
declined since school-led prayer was struck down
by the Supreme Court. I don't have the tape now,
I lent it to someone. He is definitely a purveyor of
a rather slick form of misinformation, it is not at all
dissimilar from our friends at Discovery Institute.
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| User: "386sx" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
13 Jun 2004 04:25:26 AM |
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Sarah Berel-Harrop writes:
386sx wrote...
Sarah Berel-Harrop writes:
[...]
David Barton, incidentally, is the vice chair for the Texas Republican
Party. Not surprisingly, the Texas Republican party platform contains
references to the purported "Christian Nation" status of the US, the
"myth" of separation of church and state, etc. He's very articulate,
charismatic, and sends the assertions out so rapidly it's hard to rebut
without a great deal of research, but he's quite misleading. For
example, he states that the US under a biblical worldview such as the
founders had higher educational standards within the culture. He
offers the federalist papers, which he characterizes as letters to the
editor. He says, gee, these are so difficult, the people of that
biblically-based time must have been very literate and intelligent to
process such high quality letters to the editor. He fails to mention
that education was not universally available at that time.
Since, from what I've gathered from the Wallbuilders site, he agrees that
the papers were written by Hamilton and Madison and Jay, I'd say he's
engaged in some blatant dishonest cherry picking. (If what you say is
true.)
To his credit he does attempt to remedy some of his mistaken quoting,
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=20, but
he won't go as far as saying that he's led people astray - he's just
"raising the academic standard." How ironic it is that this man who has
magic holy spirit flowing through him with his biblical worldview had an
academic standard that needed raising, no doubt with a little bit of help
from his critics.
Barton quotes Ben Franklin:
"I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the
good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more
respected and more observed;"
(Sarcasm) I think Mr. Franklin might have been talking about this doctrine,
but I'm not sure:
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the
streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have
their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and
when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and
thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
I am pretty sure it was on the tape Developing a Biblical World View . I
bought a bunch of materials last Saturday afternoon when they were marked
down to half price. This was part of his argument, supported by a bible
quote of course, that you must start with fear of god, something else,
then add knowledge. That knowledge without a biblical worldview is
dangerous.
& he blames the purported purging of religion from the public square for
decreasing educational standards as measured by proxies such as the
quality of letters to the editor (Federalist paper example) and declining
standardized test scores.
So he notes that children from Christian schools score on Iowa and other
tests at higher grade levels than children in public schools.
Incidentally a state rep speaking of school finance in my senate district
convention also stated why is the average expenditure per child in public
schools higher than his annual tuition bill. Of course any provider of
last resort will have higher prices and lower quality than providers who
can pick and choose their customers. Although I do think defunding the
football programs would go a long way towards lowering costs, decreasing
class ratios, and increasing educational quality in Texas.
Barton also notes in this tape that test scores have declined since
school-led prayer was struck down by the Supreme Court. I don't have the
tape now, I lent it to someone. He is definitely a purveyor of a rather
slick form of misinformation, it is not at all dissimilar from our friends
at Discovery Institute.
This reminds me of the argument where they say that the schools of other
countries are allegedly pulling ahead of ours because we don't have "God in
our schools" and then they go on to tick off the names of the countries who
are outdoing us - countries which themselves don't have "God in their
schools."
--
http://www.rae.org/raelian.html
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| User: "Kit Gautier" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 12:02:39 AM |
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My favorite part:
"But he also said that creationism does imply the existence of an intelligent
life force ultimately responsible for all life."
Gotcha. All life, with the exception of this extremely SPEEEECIAL "intelligent
life force". Fundies, sheesh.
Kit
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| User: "Ferrous Patella" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 05:40:50 PM |
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news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he saw
no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
--
Ferrous Patella
"If the universe is so finely tuned, how come I can't sing worth a darn?"
-Cheezits
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 09:44:24 PM |
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Ferrous Patella <mail125797@pop.net> wrote in
news:Xns95049F20C959Dmail125797popnet@199.45.49.11:
news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he
saw no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
I am surprised you did not "Chez Watt" it.
Actually that comment has a vague simularity to the ideas of
C.S. Lewis who really had a hard time deal with other religions
in _Mere Christianity_.
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
"...To deny that basic concepts of historical method with respect to
evolution is worse than just denying science; it is denying simple
common sense. Down that road lies only solipsism or schizophrenia,
neither of which can be used for examination of the outside world."
- Daniel Harper
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 09:56:25 PM |
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:44:24 +0000 (UTC), Harlequin <usenet@cox.net>
wrote:
Ferrous Patella <mail125797@pop.net> wrote in
news:Xns95049F20C959Dmail125797popnet@199.45.49.11:
news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he
saw no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
I am surprised you did not "Chez Watt" it.
Actually that comment has a vague simularity to the ideas of
C.S. Lewis who really had a hard time deal with other religions
in _Mere Christianity_.
Gack. C.S.Lewis. J.R.R. Tolkein, one of his best friends, thought he
was a bad writer, especially loathing his Christian allegories; the
funny thing about that was that Tolkein himself was a devout Catholic,
but wisely decided not to turn his work into sickly sermons.
Not all Christians share that intolerance, thank God.
Lizz 'only intolerant of intolerance' Holmans
--
In these shoes? I don't think so!
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| User: "Harlequin" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 10:47:54 PM |
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Lizz Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:ge7ic0h5rt8hr8ds7vv4ds9pgpql05q4nc@4ax.com:
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:44:24 +0000 (UTC), Harlequin <usenet@cox.net>
wrote:
Ferrous Patella <mail125797@pop.net> wrote in
news:Xns95049F20C959Dmail125797popnet@199.45.49.11:
news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he
saw no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
I am surprised you did not "Chez Watt" it.
Actually that comment has a vague simularity to the ideas of
C.S. Lewis who really had a hard time deal with other religions
in _Mere Christianity_.
Gack. C.S.Lewis. J.R.R. Tolkein, one of his best friends, thought he
was a bad writer, especially loathing his Christian allegories; the
funny thing about that was that Tolkein himself was a devout Catholic,
but wisely decided not to turn his work into sickly sermons.
Not all Christians share that intolerance, thank God.
Actually I don't think the problem with Lewis was ever intolerance.
Indeed compared to almost anything coming out of apologetics today,
Lewis was a paragon of tolerance. I dare say that the reason
why he had to warp everything good that comes from non-Christian
religions into some sort of quasi-Christainity was that he
was a good and decent person who had a hard time dealing with the
the logical conclusions of his false dichotomies. Instead
of trashing the false dichotomies when they lead to absurd
conclusions he instead invented in more absurd ways to deal with
them. The reason for this was that if he abandoned his
false dichotomies, he would have to abandon his entire program
of apologetics which was so clearly based on those dichotomies.
--
Anti-spam: replace "usenet" with "harlequin2"
"...To deny that basic concepts of historical method with respect to
evolution is worse than just denying science; it is denying simple
common sense. Down that road lies only solipsism or schizophrenia,
neither of which can be used for examination of the outside world."
- Daniel Harper
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| User: "John Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 10:17:16 PM |
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Lizz Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
....
Lizz 'only intolerant of intolerance' Holmans
"We're a hate group. We hate hate. Absolutely hate it." - Get Smart
--
John S Wilkins PhD - www.wilkins.id.au
a little emptier, a little spent
as always by that quiver in the self,
subjugated, yes, and obedient. -- Seamus Heaney
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| User: "Ferrous Patella" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
11 Jun 2004 10:10:48 AM |
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news:Xns9504D809A47A1usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6 by Harlequin
<usenet@cox.net>:
Ferrous Patella <mail125797@pop.net> wrote in
news:Xns95049F20C959Dmail125797popnet@199.45.49.11:
news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he
saw no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
I am surprised you did not "Chez Watt" it.
Nope! But you just did.
--
Ferrous Patella
"If the universe is so finely tuned, how come I can't sing worth a darn?"
-Cheezits
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| User: "Vince Barmann" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
13 Jun 2004 08:10:08 AM |
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Ferrous Patella wrote:
news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he saw
no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
That statement actually evokes a nasty odor in my brain.
Vince B.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
13 Jun 2004 08:34:45 AM |
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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 13:10:08 +0000 (UTC), Vince Barmann
<vbarMyFingermann@earthlink.net> wrote:
Ferrous Patella wrote:
news:2is2lfFq65f4U1@uni-berlin.de by Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>:
http://ydr.com/story/local/28035/
From the same article:
But fellow resident Tom Jackson, who said he was a Christian, said he saw
no problem with offending others with different beliefs.
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
That statement actually evokes a nasty odor in my brain.
It's exactly the same mentality as the Taleban, the Iranian Ayatollahs
and other Islamic fundamentalists.
Vince B.
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
10 Jun 2004 08:00:31 PM |
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:40:50 +0000 (UTC), Ferrous Patella
<mail125797@pop.net> wrote:
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
Boggles the mind.....
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Residents join creation debate |
12 Jun 2004 07:45:39 AM |
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On 10-Jun-2004, Rune Børsjø <stupid@spammers.com> wrote:
"There really are no other religions," he said. "There's atheism and
Christianity. That's it."
Boggles the mind.....
And lets not forget that one of the school board members considers the
Separation Clause of the US Constitution to be a "myth".
This stuff just makes me sick.
On the bright side, at least these dolts aren't state supreme court
justices-at least not yet.
Skiiter the Cat
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