| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jason Spaceman" |
| Date: |
22 Jun 2005 05:46:25 AM |
| Object: |
In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
"A mediaeval technique helped us to make a Shroud," Science & Vie
(Science and Life) said in its July issue.
The Shroud is claimed by its defenders to be the cloth in which the
body of Jesus Christ was wrapped after his crucifixion.
It bears the faint image of a blood-covered man with holes in his hand
and wounds in his body and head, the apparent result of being
crucified, stabbed by a Roman spear and forced to wear a crown of
thorns.
In 1988, scientists carried out carbon-14 dating of the delicate linen
cloth and concluded that the material was made some time between 1260
and 1390. Their study prompted the then archbishop of Turin, where the
Shroud is stored, to admit that the garment was a hoax. But the debate
sharply revived in January this year.
Drawing on a method previously used by skeptics to attack authenticity
claims about the Shroud, Science & Vie got an artist to do a
bas-relief - a sculpture that stands out from the surrounding
background - of a Christ-like face.
A scientist then laid out a damp linen sheet over the bas-relief and
let it dry, so that the thin cloth was moulded onto the face.
Using cotton wool, he then carefully dabbed ferric oxide, mixed with
gelatine, onto the cloth to make blood-like marks. When the cloth was
turned inside-out, the reversed marks resulted in the famous image of
the crucified Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.news24.com/News24/Technology/News/0%2C%2C2-13-1443_1724886%2C00.html
or http://tinyurl.com/chube
J. Spaceman
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| User: "Bad Wolf" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 06:16:53 AM |
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In the great debate about "In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake'" in
alt.atheism, Jason Spaceman <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
catapaulted the following boulder:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
"A mediaeval technique helped us to make a Shroud," Science & Vie
(Science and Life) said in its July issue.
The Shroud is claimed by its defenders to be the cloth in which the
body of Jesus Christ was wrapped after his crucifixion.
It bears the faint image of a blood-covered man with holes in his hand
and wounds in his body and head, the apparent result of being
crucified, stabbed by a Roman spear and forced to wear a crown of
thorns.
In 1988, scientists carried out carbon-14 dating of the delicate linen
cloth and concluded that the material was made some time between 1260
and 1390. Their study prompted the then archbishop of Turin, where the
Shroud is stored, to admit that the garment was a hoax. But the debate
sharply revived in January this year.
Drawing on a method previously used by skeptics to attack authenticity
claims about the Shroud, Science & Vie got an artist to do a
bas-relief - a sculpture that stands out from the surrounding
background - of a Christ-like face.
A scientist then laid out a damp linen sheet over the bas-relief and
let it dry, so that the thin cloth was moulded onto the face.
Using cotton wool, he then carefully dabbed ferric oxide, mixed with
gelatine, onto the cloth to make blood-like marks. When the cloth was
turned inside-out, the reversed marks resulted in the famous image of
the crucified Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.news24.com/News24/Technology/News/0%2C%2C2-13-1443_1724886%2C00.html
or http://tinyurl.com/chube
J. Spaceman
Rust in Jesus.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
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| User: "fungus" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 09:08:58 AM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
It's obvious it's a fake. To figure out why
just lie down and put a cloth over your face
and draw the outline of your facial features
on it (eyes, ears, nose, etc). Now open it up
and look at what you've got - a lot of
distortion.
The only way to make a cloth with undistorted*
features is to paint the image onto a flat cloth.
You can't do it with a cloth which is draped over
a human face.
[*] I use the term "undistorted" with caution
- to me the nose looks a bit long. In fact the
proportions of the face on the shroud are all
suspiciously like the stylised religious art
of the 14th century....
Their study prompted the then archbishop of Turin, where the
Shroud is stored, to admit that the garment was a hoax.
See, even *they* admit it's a hoax.
But the debate
sharply revived in January this year.
Because the fundies refuse to accept the Pesky Facts?
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB. For email, remove my socks.
In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know
that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,'
and then they actually change their minds and you never
hear that old view from them again. They really do it.
It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists
are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens
every day. I cannot recall the last time something like
that happened in politics or religion.
- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 04:39:00 PM |
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You all are a bunch of unbelievers. I remember now, a novel, "The keys
of Saint Peter" of Roger Pyrefitte, a French writer, and there is a
character in this novel, the chaplain of the cardinal, who says: The
impious had doubted of many relics from the bones of saints, saying
they were bones of chickens or even bones of lambs, but the
authenticity of a relic is not based in the physical subtract of the
very material, "ossis sanctum", but the proof comes to us by the
spiritual graces and plenty of blessings the faithful obtain by their
intercession. You see? It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
Leo
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| User: "Mike McWilliams" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 05:37:07 PM |
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ery material, "ossis sanctum", but the proof comes to us by the
spiritual graces and plenty of blessings the faithful obtain by their
intercession. You see? It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
Leo
My belief system doesn't include spiritual graces or blessings as
existing in reality. I only have faith about things that don't
disappoint, like the sun rising tommorow whether I'm here or not.
What do you have for the atheist. I after all believe I have the power
to create human beings through sex. I don't even need unlimited power
and knowledge.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 05:00:15 PM |
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In article <1119476339.980228.31620@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "leo" <leo@leopoldoperdomo.com> writes:
You all are a bunch of unbelievers. I remember now, a novel, "The keys
of Saint Peter" of Roger Pyrefitte, a French writer, and there is a
character in this novel, the chaplain of the cardinal, who says: The
impious had doubted of many relics from the bones of saints, saying
they were bones of chickens or even bones of lambs, but the
authenticity of a relic is not based in the physical subtract of the
very material, "ossis sanctum", but the proof comes to us by the
spiritual graces and plenty of blessings the faithful obtain by their
intercession. You see? It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
Leo
There are quite a few relics of the Buddha, as well.
-- cary
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| User: "fungus" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 08:31:56 PM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
There are quite a few relics of the Buddha, as well.
Budda wasn't a supernatural being. I have no
problem believing in Buddah.
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB. For email, remove my socks.
In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know
that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,'
and then they actually change their minds and you never
hear that old view from them again. They really do it.
It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists
are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens
every day. I cannot recall the last time something like
that happened in politics or religion.
- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
23 Jun 2005 10:27:52 AM |
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In article <ugoue.52741$US.5684@news.ono.com> fungus <umailMY@SOCKSartlum.com> writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
There are quite a few relics of the Buddha, as well.
Budda wasn't a supernatural being. I have no
problem believing in Buddah.
Ah, but do chicken bones have Buddha nature?
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB. For email, remove my socks.
In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know
that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,'
and then they actually change their minds and you never
hear that old view from them again. They really do it.
It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists
are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens
every day. I cannot recall the last time something like
that happened in politics or religion.
- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
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| User: "fungus" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
23 Jun 2005 10:46:08 AM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
Budda wasn't a supernatural being. I have no
problem believing in Buddah.
Ah, but do chicken bones have Buddha nature?
Ummm...no. Chicken bones are more like voodoo.
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB. For email, remove my socks.
In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know
that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,'
and then they actually change their minds and you never
hear that old view from them again. They really do it.
It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists
are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens
every day. I cannot recall the last time something like
that happened in politics or religion.
- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
26 Jun 2005 01:36:16 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:27:52 +0000 (UTC),
(Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <ugoue.52741$US.5684@news.ono.com> fungus <umailMY@SOCKSartlum.com> writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
There are quite a few relics of the Buddha, as well.
Budda wasn't a supernatural being. I have no
problem believing in Buddah.
Ah, but do chicken bones have Buddha nature?
Of course! So do; rocks, water, plants, and minerals.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 05:22:08 PM |
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leo wrote:
You all are a bunch of unbelievers.
Yes we are. Thanks for noticing.
I remember now, a novel, "The keys
of Saint Peter" of Roger Pyrefitte, a French writer, and there is a
character in this novel, the chaplain of the cardinal, who says: The
impious had doubted of many relics from the bones of saints, saying
they were bones of chickens or even bones of lambs, but the
authenticity of a relic is not based in the physical subtract of the
very material, "ossis sanctum", but the proof comes to us by the
spiritual graces and plenty of blessings the faithful obtain by their
intercession. You see?
Yes. I see Pyrefitte's claims and he's right. We see bones of chickens
or of lambs. They do not have any meaning beyond it. However, he's
wrong in other ways. Something does not need to have "spiritual graces"
or "blessings of the faithful" to be a "relic." It simply needs to be
recognized as such by folks.
A stop sign defaced with graffiti by a teenage Abraham Lincoln would be
a relic and have no spiritual graces. Yet, it's just a bit of metal and
paint. It needs no "spiritual graces" or "blessings of the faithful" to
be a relic.
It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
Yes.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 05:01:14 PM |
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leo wrote:
You see? It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
This is alt.atheism, dipshit. "Faith" is not a virtue, but a character
flaw.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 06:10:25 PM |
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"skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in news:1119476697.448830.190340
@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
leo wrote:
You see? It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
This is alt.atheism, dipshit. "Faith" is not a virtue, but a character
flaw.
Leo's sarcasm doesn't come through very well. English isn't his first
language.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove
the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible."
[H.L. Mencken, "Prejudices"]
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 05:40:00 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 17:01:14 -0500, skyeyes wrote
(in article <1119476697.448830.190340@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>):
leo wrote:
You see? It is quite another dimension entirely. You
only lack faith.
This is alt.atheism, dipshit. "Faith" is not a virtue, but a character
flaw.
He is attempting to post sarcasm, in a second language. (Doing much better
than I would in Tagalog or Spanish.)
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
"We've upped our standards, up yours."-EAC Department of Literary
Standards-Desdinova
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 06:46:58 PM |
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Harry F. Leopold wrote:
He is attempting to post sarcasm, in a second language. (Doing much better
than I would in Tagalog or Spanish.)
Yeah, I *finally* picked up on that. Sorry, leo; I'm old, you know.
Actually, my slow-on-the-uptake-ness probably has more to do with the
fact that my brain is sizzled. Sunday, it was 110F here (southern AZ);
Monday, it was 110F *with humidity*; Tuesday, it was 106F; today, it's
hit 107F. And the punchline? My evaporative cooler is FUBAR. Me and
the cats is melting.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "In The World Before Clayton, Primal Chaos Reigned!" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 08:02:11 PM |
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"skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:1119484018.301484.196670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Harry F. Leopold wrote:
He is attempting to post sarcasm, in a second language. (Doing much
better
than I would in Tagalog or Spanish.)
Yeah, I *finally* picked up on that. Sorry, leo; I'm old, you know.
Actually, my slow-on-the-uptake-ness probably has more to do with the
fact that my brain is sizzled. Sunday, it was 110F here (southern AZ);
Monday, it was 110F *with humidity*; Tuesday, it was 106F; today, it's
hit 107F. And the punchline? My evaporative cooler is FUBAR. Me and
the cats is melting.
It was the coldest day of the year here yesterday....and my hot water system
fucked up so not only couldn't i have a warm shower...I smell too!
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
26 Jun 2005 01:46:36 PM |
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On 22 Jun 2005 16:46:58 -0700, "skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net>
wrote:
Harry F. Leopold wrote:
He is attempting to post sarcasm, in a second language. (Doing much better
than I would in Tagalog or Spanish.)
Yeah, I *finally* picked up on that. Sorry, leo; I'm old, you know.
Actually, my slow-on-the-uptake-ness probably has more to do with the
fact that my brain is sizzled. Sunday, it was 110F here (southern AZ);
Monday, it was 110F *with humidity*;
ACK! The Mojave Desert would get hit with humidity in August and
September which rendered swamp coolers inoperative.
Tuesday, it was 106F; today, it's
hit 107F. And the punchline? My evaporative cooler is FUBAR. Me and
the cats is melting.
If the Verde (quite north of you), or equivalent river isn't readilly
available I have a suggestion which we used to keep the house some ten
to fifteen degrees cooler.
Open your windows at night and when you get up in the morning check
your inside temperature. Drop the blinds on the sunny side, but don't
restrict the air flow. When your inside temp starts rising, close the
windows on the sunny side and close the blinds fully.
When the sun starts shifting to the other side of the house, (or when
the incoming air temp is warmer than inside) drop the blinds and close
those windows. Roughly three hours later, check, to see if the
morning side of the house's air coming in is cooler. If so, open the
windows some on that side while keeping the sun out.
If your house is on a bit of a foundation and you have a 'whole house
fan,' you may be able to draw colder air from that space.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 07:35:36 PM |
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skyeyes wrote:
Actually, my slow-on-the-uptake-ness probably has more to do
with the fact that my brain is sizzled. Sunday, it was 110F
here (southern AZ); Monday, it was 110F *with humidity*;
Tuesday, it was 106F; today, it's hit 107F. And the punchline?
My evaporative cooler is FUBAR. Me and the cats is melting.
If it makes you feel better, it was a couple degrees hotter here
in Tempe yesterday. I've got A/C, but, what with my income being
what it's been the past few months...well, it's 86 in the
apartment right now. My cat's not complainin', but she's not
exactly a happy camper right now. It looked like rain on the
horizon yesterday afternoon but it never made it to this side of
town.
109F outside as I type.
*sigh*
Heck, even the hummingbird that frequents my feeder is just
perched, panting, on a pot on the ground. Wish I could put a
solar-powered peltier cooler on the feeder or something.
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
23 Jun 2005 01:24:46 PM |
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Ben Goren wrote:
skyeyes wrote:
Actually, my slow-on-the-uptake-ness probably has more to do
with the fact that my brain is sizzled. Sunday, it was 110F
here (southern AZ); Monday, it was 110F *with humidity*;
Tuesday, it was 106F; today, it's hit 107F. And the punchline?
My evaporative cooler is FUBAR. Me and the cats is melting.
If it makes you feel better, it was a couple degrees hotter here
in Tempe yesterday.
I saw on the news that Feenicks and environs were a few degrees hotter.
Oy.
I've got A/C, but, what with my income being
what it's been the past few months...well, it's 86 in the
apartment right now.
Eighty-six??? <Wistful sigh> That's still 20+ degrees cooler than it
is outside. My house is only about 5 degrees cooler. I'd *kill* for
86 degrees. <Snivel>
My cat's not complainin', but she's not
exactly a happy camper right now.
All 6 of mine are blaming me for their discomfort. Whatever happens,
it's all my fault. ;-> But at least they can lay on the ceramic tile
floor to cool off. With my old bones, if I did that I'd never get up
again.
It looked like rain on the
horizon yesterday afternoon but it never made it to this side of
town.
The rain down this way has missed me completely, too. I get the sticky
humidity, but not the joy of the water.
109F outside as I type.
Got to 107 here yesterday.
*sigh*
You can say that again!
Heck, even the hummingbird that frequents my feeder is just
perched, panting, on a pot on the ground. Wish I could put a
solar-powered peltier cooler on the feeder or something.
Maybe one of those water-mister thingies? Cool the little guy off that
way? I love hummers.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 11:55:22 AM |
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fungus wrote:
Because the fundies refuse to accept the Pesky Facts?
But... but... but... its a miracle.
What are facts in the presence of a miracle?
Nothing important.
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| User: "Matt Giwer" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
23 Jun 2005 01:58:58 AM |
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fungus wrote:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
It's obvious it's a fake. To figure out why
just lie down and put a cloth over your face
and draw the outline of your facial features
on it (eyes, ears, nose, etc). Now open it up
and look at what you've got - a lot of
distortion.
The only way to make a cloth with undistorted*
features is to paint the image onto a flat cloth.
You can't do it with a cloth which is draped over
a human face.
[*] I use the term "undistorted" with caution
- to me the nose looks a bit long. In fact the
proportions of the face on the shroud are all
suspiciously like the stylised religious art
of the 14th century....
You must also find a way to make your long hair hang towards your feet while lying down. It is not
clear how one accomplishes this. Perhaps with a straw wig? A minor detail but given the description
the beard should be plastered to the chin from sweat and blood and certainly from any wash water
used. Perhaps they has a blowdryer?
--
All Israeli Jews fake being conscientious objectors. There are no legal
conscientious objectors in Israel. Why do no Israeli Jews have a
conscience?
-- The Iron Webmaster, 3454
nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
flying saucers http://www.giwersworld.org/flyingsa.html a2
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 02:23:34 PM |
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Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
Isn't this, like, old news?
RS
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 02:41:41 PM |
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Richard Smol wrote:
Jason Spaceman wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
Isn't this, like, old news?
Yes, a bishop who examined it when it was new said it was a fake and that
was at a time when relics were *big* business in the church so not only was
it fake but a bad one.
It does not hurt to have it repeated.
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| User: "george" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 04:11:56 PM |
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I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on
Dead man on a stick, dead man on a stick
Get your dead man on a stick.
Can be used for religious porpoises
Hang one in your local hall
Dead man on a stick
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| User: "In The World Before Clayton, Primal Chaos Reigned!" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 08:03:50 PM |
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"george" <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote in message
news:1119474716.712228.244880@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on
Dead man on a stick, dead man on a stick
Get your dead man on a stick.
Can be used for religious porpoises
Hang one in your local hall
Dead man on a stick
I'm thinking more Billy Connelly's "The Last Supper" routine!
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| User: "fungus" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 08:33:45 PM |
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Mike Painter wrote:
Yes, a bishop who examined it when it was new said it was a fake and that
was at a time when relics were *big* business in the church so not only was
it fake but a bad one.
More than that, he knew who the faker was.
The correspondence between the bishop/faker
is still kept in Turin cathedral.
--
<\___/>
/ O O \
\_____/ FTB. For email, remove my socks.
In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know
that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,'
and then they actually change their minds and you never
hear that old view from them again. They really do it.
It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists
are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens
every day. I cannot recall the last time something like
that happened in politics or religion.
- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
26 Jun 2005 01:34:28 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:46:25 -0400, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
"A mediaeval technique helped us to make a Shroud," Science & Vie
(Science and Life) said in its July issue.
The Shroud is claimed by its defenders to be the cloth in which the
body of Jesus Christ was wrapped after his crucifixion.
It bears the faint image of a blood-covered man with holes in his hand
and wounds in his body and head, the apparent result of being
crucified, stabbed by a Roman spear and forced to wear a crown of
thorns.
In 1988, scientists carried out carbon-14 dating of the delicate linen
cloth and concluded that the material was made some time between 1260
and 1390. Their study prompted the then archbishop of Turin, where the
Shroud is stored, to admit that the garment was a hoax. But the debate
sharply revived in January this year.
Drawing on a method previously used by skeptics to attack authenticity
claims about the Shroud, Science & Vie got an artist to do a
bas-relief - a sculpture that stands out from the surrounding
background - of a Christ-like face.
A scientist then laid out a damp linen sheet over the bas-relief and
let it dry, so that the thin cloth was moulded onto the face.
Using cotton wool, he then carefully dabbed ferric oxide, mixed with
gelatine, onto the cloth to make blood-like marks. When the cloth was
turned inside-out, the reversed marks resulted in the famous image of
the crucified Christ.
Fixative
Gelatine, an animal by-product rich in collagen, was frequently used
by Middle Age painters as a fixative to bind pigments to canvas or
wood.
The imprinted image turned out to be wash-resistant, impervious to
temperatures of 250°C and was undamaged by exposure to a range of
harsh chemicals, including bisulphite which, without the help of the
gelatine, would normally have degraded ferric oxide to the compound
ferrous oxide.
The experiments, said Science & Vie, answer several claims made by the
pro-Shroud camp, which says the marks could not have been painted onto
the cloth.
For one thing, the Shroud's defenders argue, photographic negatives
and scanners show that the image could only have derived from a
three-dimensional object, given the width of the face, the prominent
cheekbones and nose.
In addition, they say, there are no signs of any brushmarks. And, they
argue, no pigments could have endured centuries of exposure to heat,
light and smoke.
For Jacques di Costanzo, of Marseille University Hospital, southern
France, who carried out the experiments, the medieval forger must have
also used a bas-relief, a sculpture or cadaver to get the 3-D imprint.
Booming market
The faker used a cloth rather than a brush to make the marks, and used
gelatine to keep the rusty blood-like images permanently fixed and
bright for selling in the booming market for religious relics.
To test his hypothesis, di Costanzo used ferric oxide, but no
gelatine, to make other imprints, but the marks all disappeared when
the cloth was washed or exposed to the test chemicals.
He also daubed the bas-relief with an ammoniac compound designed to
represent human sweat and also with cream of aloe, a plant that was
used as an embalming aid by Jews at the time of Christ.
He then placed the cloth over it for 36 hours - the approximate time
that Christ was buried before rising again - but this time, there was
not a single mark on it.
"It's obviously easier to make a fake shroud than a real one," Science
& Vie report drily.
The first documented evidence of the Shroud dates back to 1357, when
it surfaced at a church at Lirey, near the eastern French town of
Troyes. In 1390, Pope Clement VII declared that it was not the true
shroud but could be used as a representation of it, provided the
faithful be told that it was not genuine.
In January this year, a US chemist, Raymond Rogers, said the
radiocarbon samples for the 1988 study were taken from a piece that
had been sewn into the fabric by nuns who repaired the Shroud after it
was damaged in a church blaze in 1532.
Rogers said that his analysis of other samples, based on levels of a
chemical called vanillin that results from the decomposition of flax
and other plants, showed the Shroud could be "between 1 300 and 3 000
years old."
Read it at
http://www.news24.com/News24/Technology/News/0%2C%2C2-13-1443_1724886%2C00.html
or http://tinyurl.com/chube
J. Spaceman
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Tak" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 01:01:10 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 06:46:25 -0400, Jason Spaceman
<notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote:
From the article:
----------------------------------------------------------
Paris - A French magazine said on Tuesday it had carried out
experiments that proved the Shroud of Turin, believed by some
Christians to be their religion's holiest relic, was a fake.
In other news the sky was found to be blue and the ocean filled with
water! Film at 11!
Tak
a#344
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| User: "leo" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 05:01:34 PM |
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You can see there the proof of a miracle.
If the corpse of Jesus was wrapped with a cloth made 1,300 years
later, in Medieval Italy, you can watch here a wonderful miracle. I
don't understand how can be so many unbelievers in the world.
leo
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 06:11:12 PM |
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"leo" <leo@leopoldoperdomo.com> wrote in news:1119475199.385764.133740
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
You can see there the proof of a miracle.
If the corpse of Jesus was wrapped with a cloth made 1,300 years
later, in Medieval Italy, you can watch here a wonderful miracle. I
don't understand how can be so many unbelievers in the world.
leo
:-)
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Metaphysics is almost always an attempt to prove
the incredible by an appeal to the unintelligible."
[H.L. Mencken, "Prejudices"]
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: In the News: Shroud of Turin 'a fake' |
22 Jun 2005 06:47:58 PM |
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Now I get you, leo. Please disregard my last transmission. =-)
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
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