<brogers@noguchi.mimcom.net> wrote in message
news:1127808785.224831.123560@g47g2000cwa.

Much as I might like the conclusions, they're nowhere remotely near
showing cause and effect.

"it is not the purpose of this initial study to definitively demonstrate a
causal link between religion and social conditions"
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

K.

brogers@noguchi.mimcom.net wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

<snip>

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries,
such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator
rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in
the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it
inspires atheism and amorality.

<snip>

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator
correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult
mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the
prosperous democracies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Much as I might like the conclusions, they're nowhere remotely near
showing cause and effect. There might be one or two other differences
between the U.S. and Europe, apart from the prevalence of YEC.

If a creationist brought such a weak argument hear we would snicker.

I think you missed the point here. Obviously, the authors do not claim
that religion or religious beliefs cause those societal problems.
Rather, despite the claims of the religious, those beliefs singularly
fail at preventing them. See the difference?

Chris

brogers@noguchi.mimcom.net wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

<snip>

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries,
such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator
rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in
the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it
inspires atheism and amorality.

<snip>

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator
correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult
mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the
prosperous democracies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Much as I might like the conclusions, they're nowhere remotely near
showing cause and effect. There might be one or two other differences
between the U.S. and Europe, apart from the prevalence of YEC.

If a creationist brought such a weak argument hear we would snicker.

I think you missed the point here. Obviously, the authors do not claim
that religion or religious beliefs cause those societal problems.

brogers@noguchi.mimcom.net wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

<snip>

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries,
such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator
rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in
the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it
inspires atheism and amorality.

<snip>

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator
correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult
mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the
prosperous democracies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Much as I might like the conclusions, they're nowhere remotely near
showing cause and effect. There might be one or two other differences
between the U.S. and Europe, apart from the prevalence of YEC.

If a creationist brought such a weak argument hear we would snicker.

I think you missed the point here. Obviously, the authors do not claim
that religion or religious beliefs cause those societal problems.
Rather, despite the claims of the religious, those beliefs singularly
fail at preventing them. See the difference?

Chris

Noone Inparticular wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote:

[SNIP]

The study itself is at http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf
or http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html for those who aint
on a pdf tip.

Note figure 3 which shows an alarmingly high suicide rate for
Australian teens. Do any of our friends from Oz know of a reason for
this? Australia seems to me to be the LAST place one might find high
suicide rates, especially amoung the young.

Suicide rates are so low, it is often difficult to sort out
causes. However, if one expands to various definitions of
clinically depressed, one can tend to find some common themes.
Basically, in children, a lack of wide diversity in their
individual peer groups can be a problem. Generally, if
there is a high degree of conformity with in the peer group,
you'll find depressed children at the fringe. When diversity
increases, the "fringe" is harder to define, especially for the
children themselves.

This can come about for a wide variety of reasons including
force conformity, such as boarding and military schools where
there is often strict behavioral rules. But it can also
be merely because of isolation, such as in rural areas,
where the peer groups may be small and relatively homogeneous.
Additionally it can be in areas which have a social history
of conformity, along religious or ethnic lines.

Basically, it's hard to pin point since conformity and
merely consistency can be hard to differentiate. And there
can be severe environmental factors which can influence such
problems such as the Northwest of the US in which certain
areas have problems typically associated with seasonal affected
disorder. Also, college campuses, especially large ones, can
claim disproportionate numbers of victims. This tends to
run counter to the isolation/conformity model except of course
that the student populations, albeit large, are often
all similar in focus and purpose. Additionally, the student
peer groups can be small and limited to dorms, frats,
study groups, etc and interaction outside of them limited.


Or it could just be that Australians are nuts.

On 27 Sep 2005 09:54:43 -0700, "Noone Inparticular"
<unreve89@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards
high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide,
according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only
unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to
social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary
to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries,
such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a
creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative
evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil,
believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that
religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to
lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity
and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have
been described as its "spiritual capital". But the study claims that
the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US
academic journal, reports: "Many Americans agree that their
churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on
the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly
sceptical world.

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator
correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult
mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the
prosperous democracies.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-

Read it at
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C2-1798944%2C00.html

The study itself is at
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf or
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html for those who aint
on a pdf tip.

Note figure 3 which shows an alarmingly high suicide rate for
Australian teens. Do any of our friends from Oz know of a reason for
this? Australia seems to me to be the LAST place one might find high
suicide rates, especially amoung the young.

I seem to recall that during the last Olympics (held in Sydney) they
ran a lot of stories about how highly competitive Australians were
compared to a lot of other countries, which explained why they were
well represented at the Olympic level. One could assume at least that
a higher level of unmet expectations might lead to a higher suicide
rate among young teens.

Could a large aboriginal population also be a contributing factor?

Just a few thoughts...

On 27 Sep 2005 09:54:43 -0700, "Noone Inparticular"
<unreve89@hotmail.com> wrote:

Jason Spaceman wrote:

From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards
high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according
to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only
unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to
social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to
provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries,
such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator
rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in
the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it
inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that
religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to
lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and
abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been
described as its "spiritual capital". But the study claims that the
devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US
academic journal, reports: "Many Americans agree that their
churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the
hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly
sceptical world.

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator
correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult
mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the
prosperous democracies.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Read it at
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C2-1798944%2C00.html

The study itself is at http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf
or http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html for those who aint
on a pdf tip.

Note figure 3 which shows an alarmingly high suicide rate for
Australian teens. Do any of our friends from Oz know of a reason for
this? Australia seems to me to be the LAST place one might find high
suicide rates, especially amoung the young.

I seem to recall that during the last Olympics (held in Sydney) they
ran a lot of stories about how highly competitive Australians were
compared to a lot of other countries, which explained why they were
well represented at the Olympic level. One could assume at least that
a higher level of unmet expectations might lead to a higher suicide
rate among young teens.

Could a large aboriginal population also be a contributing factor?
Just a few thoughts...

VoiceOfReason <papa_fox@cybertown.com> wrote:

Thanks - This is a good study on the non-correlation of religious
belief to societal health. Bookmarked.

Actually, it indicates a negative correlation, not a non-correlation. In
other words, there may be a correlation, but not the one religious
people historically have claimed.

- I'm just waiting for the "US has problems because of the liberals,
lesbians and blacks"