| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Enkidu the Atheist" |
| Date: |
17 Nov 2005 09:25:19 PM |
| Object: |
Influential House Democrat Urges Immediate Iraq Pullout |
November 17, 2005
Influential House Democrat Urges Immediate Iraq Pullout
By DAVID STOUT
http://tinyurl.com/73t3f
WASHINGTON, Nov. 17 - An influential House Democrat called the Iraq
campaign "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion" today as he called for the
immediate withdrawal of United States troops, intensifying an already
bitter debate on Capitol Hill.
"It is time for a change in direction," said Representative John Murtha
of Pennsylvania, the leading Democrat on the House Appropriations
Committee's defense subcommittee. "Our military is suffering, the future
of our country is at risk."
Mr. Murtha, a conservative who voted in 2002 for the resolution
authorizing use of force in Iraq and who supported the Persian Gulf war
in 1991, called for "the immediate redeployment of American forces."
"It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best
interests of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the
Persian Gulf region," Mr. Murtha said during an emotional news conference
on Capitol Hill. His remarks were quickly denounced by House Republicans
as defeatist and wrongheaded.
Mr. Murtha, a 73-year-old Marine Corps veteran of Vietnam combat, lashed
back at Vice President ***** Cheney, who in a speech to a conservative
group on Wednesday night condemned critics of the Iraq war. "The
president and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing their
memory, or their backbone, but we're not going to sit by and let them
rewrite history," Mr. Cheney said in an address to the group, Frontiers
of Freedom, in Washington.
Mr. Murtha was disdainful of the vice president's remarks, saying that
"people with five deferments" had no right to make such remarks. Mr.
Cheney, like millions of other young men of the era, avoided military
service during the Vietnam war.
[more: http://tinyurl.com/73t3f ]
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it. But
if they called everything divine which they do not understand, why, there
would be no end of divine things.
-- Hippocrates
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| User: "Katt" |
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| Title: Re: Influential House Democrat Urges Immediate Iraq Pullout |
18 Nov 2005 04:10:36 AM |
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"Enkidu the Atheist" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9711C59A9370255229@
I'm fascinated by this bit:
Mr. Murtha was disdainful of the vice president's remarks, saying that
"people with five deferments" had no right to make such remarks. Mr.
Cheney, like millions of other young men of the era, avoided military
service during the Vietnam war.
You see how the corporate media always gives at least one 'free pass' to
those in power - here by 'fairly' pointing out that Cheney was only one of
'millions' [sic] who avoided military service? What they don't say is that
he 'justified' his not serving with the arrogant excuse that he had 'other
priorities'. And note also that next time they mention that someone like
Jane Fonda was a prominent anti-war campaigner, they won't feel *any
necesity whatsoever* to say 'Fonda, *like tens of millions of other
Americans*, opposed the Vietnam War'...
Katt.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Influential House Democrat Urges Immediate Iraq Pullout |
18 Nov 2005 07:17:37 AM |
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"Katt" <kahgfghttt@t.com> wrote in
news:wMhff.696$f9.339@newsfe3-win.ntli.net:
"Enkidu the Atheist" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9711C59A9370255229@
I'm fascinated by this bit:
Mr. Murtha was disdainful of the vice president's remarks, saying
that "people with five deferments" had no right to make such remarks.
Mr. Cheney, like millions of other young men of the era, avoided
military service during the Vietnam war.
You see how the corporate media always gives at least one 'free pass'
to those in power - here by 'fairly' pointing out that Cheney was only
one of 'millions' [sic] who avoided military service? What they don't
say is that he 'justified' his not serving with the arrogant excuse
that he had 'other priorities'. And note also that next time they
mention that someone like Jane Fonda was a prominent anti-war
campaigner, they won't feel *any necesity whatsoever* to say 'Fonda,
*like tens of millions of other Americans*, opposed the Vietnam
War'...
And so he, and you, still hide behind the "chickenhawk" defense in order
to squelch discussion of your foolish defeatism.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"I actually think what we learned during the inspection
made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than,
in fact, we thought it was even before the war." -- David Kay
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6075
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: House Republicans Respond to Democrat Murtha |
17 Nov 2005 10:19:58 PM |
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Enkidu the Atheist <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in
news:Xns9711C59A9370255229@130.133.1.4:
November 17, 2005
Influential House Democrat Urges Immediate Iraq Pullout
By DAVID STOUT
http://tinyurl.com/73t3f
WASHINGTON, Nov. 17 - An influential House Democrat called the Iraq
campaign "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion" today as he called for
the immediate withdrawal of United States troops, intensifying an
already bitter debate on Capitol Hill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/17/politics/17text-gop.html?
pagewanted=all
HUNTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House
Armed Services Committee. And I'm joined by my colleagues today to make
some comments regarding the recent congressional initiatives that would
call for an immediate pullout of American forces from Iraq.
You know, American military operations have two phases. In the attack
phase there's great patriotism, there's a groundswell of support for the
troops and much flag waving.
The second phase is a more difficult phase. That's a time when you have
casualties. That's the time when you make incremental gains. And it's a
time when you sometimes see faltering political support. That always
happens. And right now in the war-fighting theater in Iraq, we're in the
second phase.
And I thought that we would talk a little bit about what's at stake,
because I think that the attack on 9/11 is something that Americans have
not forgotten, and I think they understand that the aggressive
operations of America's military have helped to keep the insurgents in
the war against terror off balance.
That's why Americans today are able to go to parks, go to schools, go to
the grocery store, live life without fear of having a second 9/11
attacks, and that's why four years have expired without a second attack
on our homeland: because we've aggressively projected America's fighting
forces in the theaters in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they are doing a
superb job.
Interestingly, this fall-off of support among Democratic ranks is not
shared by the war-fighting forces. It's not shared by our troops. In
fact, we're seeing now letters coming out of Iraq, with some that point
with dismay toward the initiatives in the Senate that, thankfully, were
rejected, that would call for a timetable for withdrawal.
HUNTER: And now we have an initiative in the House that calls for
immediate withdrawal.
You know, one thing that we've learned in this century -- in winning the
world for freedom in World War I, World War II and the Cold War -- is
that freedom around the world is in America's interest. We have freed
hundreds of millions of people in Europe, and that's accrued to the
benefit of generations of Americans.
And we are in the process of delivering a free Iraq and delivering a
nation that will be, instead of an enemy of the United States, a friend
of the United States in a very strategic area of the world, that will
not be a platform for terrorists, that will have a modicum of democracy
and therefore not be a threat to the United States.
And I just wanted to remind our friends that now is the time for
endurance. It's easy to be a flag-waver and to be patriotic and to
support the troops when you're in the initial attack phase and it looks
like you may have only a two-week war.
Lots of our enemies think America is only capable of a two-week war and
that we don't have the endurance for the hard, tough battle of winning a
war, securing the peace, providing the military shield and building up a
country and building up its democratic institutions at the same time.
In fact, we do.
And I think that the Democrats who have undertaken this initiative have
made a mistake. I think they've underestimated the toughness of the
American people and the understanding that if we don't change the world,
the world is going to change us.
And right now, in Iraq, we are changing the world. We're changing a very
strategic part of the world in such a way that it will not be a threat
to the United States and, in fact, will be an ally in the global war
against terror.
So I just wanted to offer those words today, as the other side in this
debate, as opposed to the statements that have been offered on the
Senate side and now, regrettably, on the House side also, calling for
withdrawal from the war-fighting theaters in Iraq.
HUNTER: And Kay Granger put this conference together, and I'd like to
ask Kay Granger of Texas to make a few comments.
GRANGER: Thank you very much.
Like most of the members up here, I've traveled to Iraq. I've stood at
the foot of a mass grave that held thousands of the remains of Iraqis
that were killed by Saddam Hussein.
And I traveled to Iraq and I listened to our men and women in uniform
who told me how proud they are of what they're doing, and some with
tears in their eyes, because they say, The people understand it back
home? Do they still support us? Are they still with us? And I've also
worked with the women of Iraq who literally risked their lives to run
for office so that they could be a part of writing a constitution and
having a form of democracy -- and, as they said to me, and having the
freedoms, Kay Granger, that you have in the United States.
That's all I can speak of as far as being a member like that. But I
think it speaks best, and I'm going to quote Army Major General William
Webster, who just yesterday -- now, he's the commander of the 3rd
Infantry Division; he's responsible for three-fourths of the security in
Iraq's capital.
And this is what he said. No one can say it better than he said.
Setting a date would mean that 221 soldiers I've lost this year -- that
their lives would have been lost in vain. Our troops are trying to get
this accomplished. They believe they're doing the right thing. The
soldiers believe they're helping. I think this: Bringing them home now
is a recipe for disaster. Setting a date is a loser. That's what he
says. He's there. He's risking his life and the lives of men and women.
That's what we're all about.
ROS-LEHTINEN: I'm Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a member of the International
Relations Committee. I represent Miami, Florida.
My stepson, Douglas Lehtinen, and his fiancee are currently serving as
Marine officers in Iraq. They are flying F-18s. They enlisted. They're
proud to serve their country.
And when we have the ability to communicate with Dougie and Lindsey
almost daily about what they're going through, they are very proud of
their mission. They're proud of their service. And they know that
pulling out now is a serious mistake, not just for the morale of our
troops -- who understand their mission -- but also it would be a great
defeat for the Iraqi people, who have struggled for so long to build up
their country and to make sure that they have democratic governance.
ROS-LEHTINEN: They have ridden themselves of Saddam Hussein, a brutal
dictator who had mass graves, who used chemical weapons against his own
people. We cannot abandon the Iraqi people now. They need us now more
than ever.
To pull out now, to surrender now is to give back to the terrorists a
country that they don't deserve. The Iraqi people deserve to be free,
free of tyranny, free of these terrorist insurgents. And that's what our
military is doing: ridding the Iraqi people of these insurgents and
bringing democracy, freedom, hope, the rule of law and true governance
to their country.
And I have been in Iraq, as well. And we had a historic, all- female
delegation where we had the opportunity to meet with brave women of Iraq
who said, Finally, now we are free, and finally, now my children have a
future that we can look forward to.
Let us not surrender now. Let us have an exit strategy that is built on
success.
And as President Bush said, we will stand down when the Iraqi security
forces are able to stand up.
Thank you.
HUNTER: Geoff Davis, a former Army officer and member of the Armed
Services Committee.
DAVIS: I'm Geoff Davis from Kentucky, a member of the Subcommittee on
Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, and also the co- chair of the
House Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare.
I think it's important to understand the political climate in which
these shameful statements have been made.
Ayman Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy, as well as Abu Musab Zarqawi,
have made it quite clear in their internal propaganda that they cannot
win unless they can drive the Americans out. And they know that they
can't do that there, so they've brought the battlefield to the halls of
Congress.
And, frankly, the liberal leadership have put politics ahead of sound,
fiscal and national security policy. And what they have done is
cooperated with our enemies and are emboldening our enemies.
I think, most importantly, that the soldiers and the Marines on the
ground in Iraq have made the statement that with their unbelievable,
unprecedented reenlistment rates -- I've talked with hundreds of
soldiers and Marines, ranging from junior enlisted soldiers to my West
Point classmates who I've known for nearly 30 years and served with in
the Middle East myself as a member of the 82nd Airborne Division, and
they believe in the mission. DAVIS: They see the success. And they ask
me, Why is politics consuming this mission that we are clearly winning?
And I would say this for all to hear in America, as well as for our
enemies who watch this broadcast: that our exit strategy is winning and
supporting the Iraqi people.
[more where that came from...]
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"I actually think what we learned during the inspection
made Iraq a more dangerous place, potentially, than,
in fact, we thought it was even before the war." -- David Kay
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=6075
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: House Republicans Respond to Democrat Murtha |
18 Nov 2005 08:30:46 AM |
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In article <Xns9711ED7C48217fstone69@213.155.197.138>, Fred Stone
<fstone69@earthling.com> wrote:
Enkidu the Atheist <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in
news:Xns9711C59A9370255229@130.133.1.4:
November 17, 2005
Influential House Democrat Urges Immediate Iraq Pullout
By DAVID STOUT
http://tinyurl.com/73t3f
WASHINGTON, Nov. 17 - An influential House Democrat called the Iraq
campaign "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion" today as he called for
the immediate withdrawal of United States troops, intensifying an
already bitter debate on Capitol Hill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/17/politics/17text-gop.html?
pagewanted=all
HUNTER: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House
Armed Services Committee. And I'm joined by my colleagues today to make
some comments regarding the recent congressional initiatives that would
call for an immediate pullout of American forces from Iraq.
You know, American military operations have two phases. In the attack
phase there's great patriotism, there's a groundswell of support for the
troops and much flag waving.
The second phase is a more difficult phase. That's a time when you have
casualties. That's the time when you make incremental gains. And it's a
time when you sometimes see faltering political support. That always
happens. And right now in the war-fighting theater in Iraq, we're in the
second phase.
This is incredibly simplistic thinking for a military professional. Or
is Mr. Hunter just another Michael Brown?
And I thought that we would talk a little bit about what's at stake,
because I think that the attack on 9/11 is something that Americans have
not forgotten, and I think they understand that the aggressive
operations of America's military have helped to keep the insurgents in
the war against terror off balance.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
That's why Americans today are able to go to parks, go to schools, go to
the grocery store, live life without fear of having a second 9/11
attacks, and that's why four years have expired without a second attack
on our homeland: because we've aggressively projected America's fighting
forces in the theaters in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they are doing a
superb job.
53 Americans died in terrorist attacks in the eight years prior to
9-11, (WTC '93, Khobar Towers, African Embassy bombings, USS Cole).
More than 2000 have died in the past four years, 15,000 have been
wounded, as a direct result of American action against "terrorism."
I'm just as able to go to parks, schools, the grocery store and live
life without fear now as I was then but, as a direct result of the
unnecessary war in Iraq, I feel that a lot more people want to kill me
than before.
Interestingly, this fall-off of support among Democratic ranks is not
shared by the war-fighting forces. It's not shared by our troops.
*****.
In
fact, we're seeing now letters coming out of Iraq, with some that point
with dismay toward the initiatives in the Senate that, thankfully, were
rejected, that would call for a timetable for withdrawal.
HUNTER: And now we have an initiative in the House that calls for
immediate withdrawal.
You know, one thing that we've learned in this century -- in winning the
world for freedom in World War I, World War II and the Cold War -- is
that freedom around the world is in America's interest. We have freed
hundreds of millions of people in Europe, and that's accrued to the
benefit of generations of Americans.
And we are in the process of delivering a free Iraq and delivering a
nation that will be, instead of an enemy of the United States, a friend
of the United States in a very strategic area of the world, that will
not be a platform for terrorists, that will have a modicum of democracy
and therefore not be a threat to the United States.
And I just wanted to remind our friends that now is the time for
endurance. It's easy to be a flag-waver and to be patriotic and to
support the troops when you're in the initial attack phase and it looks
like you may have only a two-week war.
Lots of our enemies think America is only capable of a two-week war and
that we don't have the endurance for the hard, tough battle of winning a
war, securing the peace, providing the military shield and building up a
country and building up its democratic institutions at the same time.
Spreading democracy at the point of a gun is NOT the job of the United
States Military. This thinking is no better than what the Soviets tried
to do for forty years, succeeding in forcing communism in some places,
failing in others.
Snip rest, because I don't have time for this faux-patriotic
foolishness.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
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| User: "G-Ride" |
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| Title: Re: House Republicans Respond to Democrat Murtha |
18 Nov 2005 12:37:36 PM |
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"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:181120050630467814%chib@nospam.com...
This is incredibly simplistic thinking for a military professional. Or
is Mr. Hunter just another Michael Brown?
Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
53 Americans died in terrorist attacks in the eight years prior to
9-11, (WTC '93, Khobar Towers, African Embassy bombings, USS Cole).
More than 2000 have died in the past four years, 15,000 have been
wounded, as a direct result of American action against "terrorism."
I'm just as able to go to parks, schools, the grocery store and live
life without fear now as I was then but, as a direct result of the
unnecessary war in Iraq, I feel that a lot more people want to kill me
than before.
*****.
Spreading democracy at the point of a gun is NOT the job of the United
States Military. This thinking is no better than what the Soviets tried
to do for forty years, succeeding in forcing communism in some places,
failing in others.
Snip rest, because I don't have time for this faux-patriotic
foolishness.
I happened to catch this response (clap louder!, 9-11!!), but I couldn't
stand to waste any more time than I spent listening to the Hunter portion.
Your comments above are similar to those I made to the television while I
watched it.
--
Aloha, G-Ride
"Like a quarrelling group of monkeys on a leaky boat, armed with sticks of
dynamite, we are now embarked on an uncertain journey."
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