Religions > Atheism > Instead of working to destroy religion, you should be working topromote it, as more and more pain will be headed humans way it seems. Atheismdoes nothing to relieve that pain. It is religion that helps takes the biteout of life.
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"V" |
| Date: |
26 Nov 2007 10:46:49 AM |
| Object: |
Instead of working to destroy religion, you should be working topromote it, as more and more pain will be headed humans way it seems. Atheismdoes nothing to relieve that pain. It is religion that helps takes the biteout of life. |
Marcos writes:
The lack of sophistication and education of the general populace has
lead to this unwarranted belief in Judeo-Christian Bronze Age
mythology, or as we politely call it "Christianity." People today, in
this country, read less, don't travel, have a very marginal knowledge
of History and Science and often only speak one language. This small,
insular world has caused the masses to turn to charlatans for their
snake-oil cures of prayer and faith and often astrology to boot. This
argument that great crimes were comitted by atheists is nonsense.
Hitler believed in god and professed often that he did so. Communism
is the religion of the state, where the group is sacred and the
individual is to be sacrificed at the altar of freedom.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/10/the_problem_with_atheism/all_comments.html
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V writes:
Well, you are right and you are wrong Marcos.
And sometimes when you are right...you can still be wrong.
I have no argument about your critique of how society has degenerated
over the years.
But you can't get blood from rocks.
You see, what is logical is not always practical when it comes to
humans Marcos.
With the way the world is headed things will only keep getting worse
my friend.
So instead of working to destroy religion, you should be working to
promote it, as more and more pain will be headed humans way it seems.
Atheism does nothing to relieve that pain. It is religion that helps
takes the bite out of life.
I'd much rather have people concentrating on trying to be spiritual
and failing than not trying at all.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=628.0
It would be nice if humans acted logically and their actions only
worked to make their species flourish and promoted inner peace to all
- but they don't. So religion is a necessary lesser evil as the
alternative of atheists is far worse.
Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.
When you get rid of one thing, it makes room for another Marcos.
Sure atheist can succeed at pointing to the flaws of religious
thought, but they have nothing to replace the flaws with.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/769d72756b5cc0f0/bffdf501c281e7f5?hl=en&lnk=st&q=+secular+humanism+why+it+fails&rnum=2#bffdf501c281e7f5
So theists choose the lesser of two evils while on earth, with the
hopes of hitting the jackpot in the hereafter.
When atheists become successes at 'the religion of humanity,' you may
become more successful at replacing theist based religion.
Until that time..."a mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be
intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether
cultivated or neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful
seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will
fall therein and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen
And religion does a good job at controlling the weeds Marcos.
Should our country be an atheist run country like China, Russia or
Burma?
I think history answers that question.
You can make any excuse you like and say the state is their religion,
but we all know they are atheist run countries and despise religion in
any form.
The atheists put their pride in their intellect, alt the while being
blind to the fact that academic smarts are not the same as peace
smarts.
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
You bring up Hitler?
Was Hitler a Jew...no one knows Marcos.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=437777&m=r
Was Hitler a Christian...doesn't seem so.
http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Hitler.html
But there is some doubt...so maybe??
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html
But, if we look at Hitler's actions there is no doubt in which
religion he practiced.
Hitler's life and actions align themselves closer with other atheist
dictatorships in Russian, China, Cambodia rather than the great
Christian practitioners of history.
And while we can only come to a conclusion from past evidence and not
asking Hitler himself...the evidence clearly shows that Hitler acted
as an atheist.
We can look at Hitler's actions and see whether his actions followed
the path of true Christians like Mother Teresa, Saint Augustine, Saint
Thomas Aquinas, Francis of Assisi, Martin Luther King, Jr. Albert
Schweitzer. (BTW, Mother T was a good example of a spiritual based
atheist...you guys at AA should adopt her as atheists first patron
saint!)
Or did Hitlers actions follow the path of atheist mass murderers like
Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung and Burma's military
dictatorship?
It is very easy to tell what religion a person 'really is' just by
looking at their actions.
You see, It takes more than lip service to make one a certain
religion...it takes actions Marcos.
And Hitler's actions did not match any recognizable facet of the
Christian doctrine.
Atheists like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion
would never have been invented.
Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other
religions. Each religion contains perfection's as well as
imperfections. It is up to the practitioner or end user to use the
tools in the right way.
This just proves the point that 'knowledge without application is
useless' and this applies to every religion known to mankind as well
as to the atheists religion of secular humanism.
The problem is not the wisdom that is defective. The problem lies with
religious practitioners who are defective in their practice of this
wisdom. The wisdom works - we don't work the wisdom Marcos.
Taoists tell us - "fleas come with the dog." So we must accept that
every man made religion has some problems and defects within it.
But many of these religious practitioners also do good things. You
never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and clothing
the poor in any organized way as Christians do.
There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but
nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations. I wrote to
the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the Secular Humanism
Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very topic...none had the
courtesy to reply.
Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.
No, I prefer to keep things as they are and allow freedom for ALL
religions, even with all their imperfections.
I believe religions do more good than harm. We can see that come to
fruition with the many countries that the US has defeated in war. If
we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors, millions more would have been killed.
Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity. Atheist like to claim religion
killed so many people...well without religion in world the killings
would have been much worse in an all atheist world.
When we sperate the personalities from the principles, it makes
looking at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian
principles I speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the
golden rule, where the emphasis is on principles and not on the
personalities of the church such as the Pope or Jesus.
For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these foundational
Christian principles are universal truths in their own right if one
desires to live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others
in this world.
The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be
treated. As we give ~ so we receive. Is this a bad policy for the US
to stand behind? No one says the US has to label itself Catholic,
Lutheran or Presbyterian. But the fact still remains that as you
instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds and
water these seeds within you as well.
As James Allen wrote ~ "To think well of all, to be cheerful with all,
to patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts
are the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."
As for the mix of spiritual based or atheistic persons in the US or
the world? I shudder to think what the world would be like if it was
composed solely of atheists.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0
The facts show clearly that when people are devoid of religion they
generally stink as humane humans Marcos. But I also like to keep the
atheists around to remind us all to come back to earth once in while
and look for truth...especially when some of us start to kill in the
name of God.
A Hindu sage once told me -
"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside
forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness
falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies
to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."
As such, religion and the search for spiritual values are the lesser
of two evils with humans, if the other choice is a life devoid of
spiritual values.
Now, spiritual values and atheists do not generally mix?
An anonymous atheist once told me:
"What is spirit or spirituality V? Without knowing what you mean by
the word, one can't know what you mean. Why study something for which
you not only have no evidence, but not even a definition?"
Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the
wind is hard to define. Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen
and the unknown, how can we define them perfectly?
If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies.
You can't see why one person is loving and kind and another person is
a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction. Nor can you see what
made the hate monger change into a kind and loving human.
We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the
change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all
exactly.
Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect
process in this life. But just as we can see the effects of the wind,
while being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the
difference in people that incorporate spiritual values within their
lives when compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual
values.
"No man is so wise that he may not easily err if he takes no other
counsel than his own. He that is taught only by himself has a fool for
a master." Ben Jonson
No one said we have to 'investigate it all,' but we do have to give it
some thought if we wish to be at peace.
That is the beauty of being a freethinker. We can think for ourselves.
As such, when we get a toolbox we can decide which tools to use for
the job. Some tools are used a lot, other tools are left alone for the
time being, and still others are trashed when we see they are broken
and useless.
Traditional freethinkers (atheists) do not accept me as one of their
group, since I draw from spiritual paths as well as wordily areas to
garner wisdom to live at peace.
Traditional freethinkers do not like anything that comes from
religion.
Kind of a misnomer isn't it...I'm a freethinker...but I must block out
everything that comes from religion and spiritual traditions and
whatever other prejudice I wish to inject into the equation?
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0
Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
When we limit prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And
realize the truth of Blake's words that "all deities reside within the
human breast."
Yes, if it is religion that an atheists need to adopt, they only have
to look as far as the religion of humanity. But just paying secular
humanism lip service will not do any good. Our talk of spiritual
values must match our actions.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/769d72756b5cc0f0/bffdf501c281e7f5?hl=en&lnk=st&q=+secular+humanism+why+it+fails&rnum=2#bffdf501c281e7f5
It would be nice if humans acted logically and their actions only
worked to make their species flourish and promoted inner peace to all
- but they don't.
Humans need moral guidance or a moral conscience since they have a
'free will' of sorts.
Actually it is like this.
We are free to do what we want -- but are not free to want what we
want.
All our actions have consequences, and many of our actions produce
consequences that end up destroying peace. (both ours and other's
peace).
This is what separates us from the animals that run solely on
instinct.
Humans run by instinct as well as moral guidance. And religion offers
a prepackaged set of morals for humans to adhere to.
Whether this moral conscience in divinely inspired or from Nature I
don't know - that is why I am an agnostic.
But If I had to guess I would lean towards the atheistic view of
Nature based conscience, since I have not found any evidence of a God
such as the monotheists claim....but as an agnostic I keep looking.
And as I look with an open mind, I am reminded each day that there are
powers greater than myself in charge and we are all interdependent and
not independent with one another and hope one day we can all come to
realize that we all share the same breath Marcos.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.
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