| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
01 Aug 2007 06:16:59 PM |
| Object: |
Into your home |
At the Door and Into your Home
It's a quiet Saturday afternoon. You're sitting in your favorite chair,
reading the newspaper. The doorbell rings. You answer it and encounter two
bright-faced people. They're well dressed, and each carries a briefcase.
For a moment you think they're going to sell you life insurance, but they
seem too cheerful for that.
You guess that they must be Jehovah's Witnesses, and sure enough they
start talking about a wondrous hope for the future. They don't actually
say they're Witnesses, but when one of them whisks out a Bible you can see
some copies of the Watchtower magazine in his briefcase.
They ask you for your opinion of world events, and what you think is going
to happen if things continue to get worse. You reflect that there are a
lot of problems, and you do sometimes wonder where it's leading. You
invite them in to talk.
Now, normally you don't invite strangers into your home, but these people
seem harmless enough. You've heard about the legendary honesty of
Jehovah's Witnesses. You decide not to worry about your possessions or
your money.
There's something else you should worry about.
A Single Road to the Promised Land
Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to get people talking about "the state of
the world" and lead the discussion in such a way that their religion will
appear to be your only hope. If you are not prepared for their
indoctrination procedure, you may conclude that only Jehovah's Witnesses
can fill your life with meaning and protect you from the trials and
tribulations of life.
The first thing they do is cultivate your fear.
All of us are afraid of the unknown. What will happen tomorrow? Will I be
fired? What if there's a nuclear war? What if I get sick? These 'what if'
questions are the sparks that the Witnesses will fan into a flame.
The Witnesses at your door have a purpose in mind: to convert you to their
religion. If you ask them point-blank if that is their purpose, they will
usually deny it. They will say that they are there to discuss "the state
of the world" or "the Bible" or "a hope for the future". This evasiveness
is understandable; if they blatantly told people they were there to
convert them, they wouldn't get anybody to listen!
In building up your fear, Witnesses can cite countless statistics to
'prove' that the world is in a dire state. Some of their statements are
true, some are out of date, and some are wrong.
Anybody can inadvertently deliver incorrect data. The Witnesses, however,
deliver selective information designed to paint a woeful picture. While
there are many things wrong with the world, there are many good things,
too. Most of the people who read this article live in better health -- and
longer -- than the richest king of ancient times.
Alongside their bleak picture of the future, the Witnesses present an
image of a glorious future, where you will live forever in a paradise.
This is very appealing, and it is hard not to be tempted. We all yearn for
a 'Garden of Eden', and many people take regular vacations in exotic
locales such as Hawaii or Tahiti to sample a bit of the good life.
At a Disadvantage
How can you throw them out when they're offering you such a splendid
future? Why should you get angry? Wouldn't that be rude? The Witnesses
make the most headway with people who are polite. Their entire ministry
would fail if people were less friendly to uninvited people knocking at
their door.
I am not suggesting that you be nasty to people who visit you unannounced.
However, if you are planning to debate with Witnesses, bear in mind that
they are well trained. They have a weekly meeting (the Theocratic Ministry
School) which is designed to help them express ideas convincingly. The
average person is not as well qualified to argue such matters.
Even if you are well educated and articulate, you are probably not well
versed in religious matters. Witnesses 'live, eat and breathe' their
religion and can devastate most people in a debate. They know their
doctrine very well, because they study it continuously. They've been
taught answers to virtually every objection, which brings to mind the
salesman's credo: "If you can answer every objection, you'll make the sale".
If you can answer every objection, it does not mean that you are right (or
that the product you are selling is better than the rest). It means that
you are better at debates than the other person. Confidence tricksters ply
their trade by convincing people that the seemingly impossible is in fact
possible. (I am not equating Witnesses with criminals, by the way, but
demonstrating the principle that "Cogency is not validity". What seems too
good to be true is usually not true.)
For all their skill, Witnesses are not invincible debaters. It is possible
to poke a hole in their rhetoric -- especially if you are familiar with
their doctrine, or have a good background in the Bible, science, or
history. In such cases, Witnesses will subtly sidestep the issue.
.
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| User: "curmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 01:29:00 PM |
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<JWS@SNEAKYhide.org> wrote in message
news:a0be9d9e43017a91e872ac8d34436290@remailer.metacolo.com...
What I do is get a hold of my English translated copy of the Koran, then I
try to start a conversion of the teachings of the Prophet Mohamed.
I am not a Muslim, but I received the English Language version of the Koran
some 20 years ago at an Multi-Faith seminar that I attended with my wife.
This book also keeps the Mormons away, especially when I bring up the topic
of Polygamy.
"There are no enemies in science just anomalies"
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
10 Aug 2007 01:16:53 AM |
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On Aug 4, 10:29 pm, "curmudgeon" <briticanlan...@bresnan.net> wrote:
<J...@SNEAKYhide.org> wrote in message
news:a0be9d9e43017a91e872ac8d34436290@remailer.metacolo.com...
What I do is get a hold of my English translated copy of the Koran, then I
try to start a conversion of the teachings of the Prophet Mohamed.
I am not a Muslim, but I received the English Language version of the Koran
some 20 years ago at an Multi-Faith seminar that I attended with my wife.
This book also keeps the Mormons away, especially when I bring up the topic
of Polygamy.
"There are no enemies in science just anomalies"
JERRY
That reminds me of one of my favorites stories told me by my advisor
in college. He had a friend who had just moved in to a new
neighborhood and who soon had three people knocking at his door. When
he opened the door, they identified themselves as members of the local
church down the street. He looked at them, eyes wide and asked "You
are Christians?"
They excitedly agreed that they were, and he ushered them into the
house and then locked the door, making a loud show of it, and then led
them into the living room where he had a few ornamental swords on the
wall.
He told them, "I am a Muslim, and according to my religion, the only
way I can get to Heaven is to kill three Christians, and until now, I
have never even MET a Christian."
They fled.
Word must have spread, as no one knocked on his door again for another
year.
Perhaps I should try that..... ;-)
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
10 Aug 2007 02:02:34 AM |
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rogue wrote:
(snip)
He told them, "I am a Muslim, and according to my religion, the only
way I can get to Heaven is to kill three Christians, and until now, I
have never even MET a Christian."
They fled.
Word must have spread, as no one knocked on his door again for another
year.
Perhaps I should try that..... ;-)
Today, that trick might you renditioned to a foreign prison
and a a few dunks.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
10 Aug 2007 08:33:23 AM |
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On Aug 10, 11:02 am, John Popelish <jpopel...@rica.net> wrote:
rogue wrote:
(snip)
He told them, "I am a Muslim, and according to my religion, the only
way I can get to Heaven is to kill three Christians, and until now, I
have never even MET a Christian."
They fled.
Word must have spread, as no one knocked on his door again for another
year.
Perhaps I should try that..... ;-)
Today, that trick might you renditioned to a foreign prison
and a a few dunks.
JERRY
Yep, but the tyrants won't be in office forever. In fact, I see them
leaving by late January 2009.
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| User: "Bill Dunkenfield" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
02 Aug 2007 09:41:22 AM |
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wrote:
At the Door and Into your Home
It's a quiet Saturday afternoon. You're sitting in your favorite chair,
reading the newspaper. The doorbell rings. You answer it and encounter two
bright-faced people. They're well dressed, and each carries a briefcase.
For a moment you think they're going to sell you life insurance, but they
seem too cheerful for that.
You guess that they must be Jehovah's Witnesses, and sure enough they
start talking about a wondrous hope for the future. They don't actually
say they're Witnesses, but when one of them whisks out a Bible you can see
some copies of the Watchtower magazine in his briefcase.
Jesus fucking christ! Get lost.
JAM
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
01 Aug 2007 09:59:07 PM |
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wrote:
At the Door and Into your Home
It's a quiet Saturday afternoon. You're sitting in your favorite
chair, reading the newspaper. The doorbell rings. You answer it and
encounter two bright-faced people. They're well dressed, and each
carries a briefcase. For a moment you think they're going to sell you
life insurance, but they seem too cheerful for that.
You guess that they must be Jehovah's Witnesses, and sure enough they
start talking about a wondrous hope for the future. They don't
actually
say they're Witnesses, but when one of them whisks out a Bible you
can see some copies of the Watchtower magazine in his briefcase.
Or Mormans. Or from a church the next town over.
Usually I say no and shut the door.
Sometimes I ask them about the document hypothesis, tell them a real bible
scholar would and to come back when they have an answer.
The church one town over is a special case and I tell them that if they come
by again I will call their pastor at a time that is good for me. That would
be about thrree Am.
That's good for at least a year, sometimes more.
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| User: "rogue" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
10 Aug 2007 01:11:30 AM |
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On Aug 2, 6:59 am, "Mike Painter" <mddotpain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
J...@SNEAKYhide.org wrote:
At the Door and Into your Home
It's a quiet Saturday afternoon. You're sitting in your favorite
chair, reading the newspaper. The doorbell rings. You answer it and
encounter two bright-faced people. They're well dressed, and each
carries a briefcase. For a moment you think they're going to sell you
life insurance, but they seem too cheerful for that.
You guess that they must be Jehovah's Witnesses, and sure enough they
start talking about a wondrous hope for the future. They don't
actually
say they're Witnesses, but when one of them whisks out a Bible you
can see some copies of the Watchtower magazine in his briefcase.
Or Mormans. Or from a church the next town over.
Usually I say no and shut the door.
Sometimes I ask them about the document hypothesis, tell them a real bible
scholar would and to come back when they have an answer.
The church one town over is a special case and I tell them that if they come
by again I will call their pastor at a time that is good for me. That would
be about thrree Am.
That's good for at least a year, sometimes more.
JERRY
When I was in college, we would find students from one of the nearby
bible colleges wandering around campus looking for people to
proselytize. I met one guy, very nice, and we went back to my room
and we talked about the bible, discussed problems within the text
hammered on different interpretations. He understood my points,
agreed with me on some and wasn't really prepared to argue.
He showed up about a week later with an angry parrot of fellow student
who wanted to argue with me, and every point I brought up he became
more and more angry, repeating claims he couldn't support (and which I
repeatedly called him on) and finally he was ready to leave.
I told my original would-be "minister" that he was welcome to come
back but he should leave his parrot at home in the cage.
That ended the visits.
My ex-wife (who had been a Preacher's Kid) once arranged for the local
baptist preacher to show up at the house right after I got home from
my teaching job when I was already frustrated and tired. Rather than
run him and his youth director off, I peeled off my shirt, fixed a
drink, offered them each one (Jack Daniels) and then offered to debate
them. They fled. My wife was horrified but we came to an
understanding. She eventually also read the bible and had no use for
it or fundamentalists in any form.
And finally, my daughter got a crush on a young airman who was a
member of a church group. He knew she was interested in him and
though he was a bit too old for her, he used the connection to press a
book into her hand. Later she showed it to me and I explained that
all she would get from that book would be someone else's
interpretation of the text. If she wanted to see the problems with
Christianity, she needed to read the book itself and I handed her my
old dog-eared copy.
After she finished reading she had no use for it either.
I've said all along, Reading the bible is the surest way to decide
Christianity is a joke.
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| User: "Andy W" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
02 Aug 2007 06:10:07 PM |
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On 2 Aug, 00:16, wrote:
At the Door and Into your Home
It's a quiet Saturday afternoon. You're sitting in your favorite chair,
reading the newspaper. The doorbell rings. You answer it and encounter two
bright-faced people. They're well dressed, and each carries a briefcase.
For a moment you think they're going to sell you life insurance, but they
seem too cheerful for that.
<snip>
For all their skill, Witnesses are not invincible debaters. It is possible
to poke a hole in their rhetoric -- especially if you are familiar with
their doctrine, or have a good background in the Bible, science, or
history. In such cases, Witnesses will subtly sidestep the issue.
Ironically, arguing with JWs on the doorstep was one of the things
that made me realise I was an atheist! And the leaflets and books and
stuff are just a source of ammunition to me. I used to enjoy those
discussions... unfortunately the current pair only come around during
the week while I'm at work. They quite often speak to my wife though,
who tends to see them off by being relentlessly optimistic in the face
of their perpetual doom and gloom.
Andy
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| User: "The Heretic" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
03 Aug 2007 08:15:55 PM |
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"Andy W" <vorath@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1186096207.314501.300820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
They quite often speak to my wife though,
who tends to see them off by being relentlessly optimistic in the face
of their perpetual doom and gloom.
Thay hate that! They hate when people are optimistic and they can't bring
them down with their depressing bullcrap.
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| User: "les_on_usenet" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 05:14:34 AM |
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On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:15:55 -0500, "The Heretic"
<durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote:
"Andy W" <vorath@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1186096207.314501.300820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
They quite often speak to my wife though,
who tends to see them off by being relentlessly optimistic in the face
of their perpetual doom and gloom.
Thay hate that! They hate when people are optimistic and they can't bring
them down with their depressing bullcrap.
I usually challenge them to cite any previous age where mankind, as
a whole, were better than we are now. I also point out that, in
spite of setbacks (Black Death, WW2 and the invention of gods
and the conflicts they caused) the general trend of the history of
mankind has been one of continuous progress and improvement and I
saw no reason for supposing that trend will not continue.
I might also suggest that during the depths of the cold
war they were coming round predicting our imminent
demise but that we did eventually emerge from those
dark days as optimists predicted they would.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Ips-Switch" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 12:41:41 PM |
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"les_on_usenet" <delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:1qj8b3ljju31v6oe0icvprb90vpjnjpb34@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:15:55 -0500, "The Heretic"
<durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote:
"Andy W" <vorath@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1186096207.314501.300820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
They quite often speak to my wife though,
who tends to see them off by being relentlessly optimistic in the face
of their perpetual doom and gloom.
Thay hate that! They hate when people are optimistic and they can't bring
them down with their depressing bullcrap.
I usually challenge them to cite any previous age where mankind, as
a whole, were better than we are now. I also point out that, in
spite of setbacks (Black Death, WW2 and the invention of gods
and the conflicts they caused) the general trend of the history of
mankind has been one of continuous progress and improvement and I
saw no reason for supposing that trend will not continue.
I've done that as well but all I received is either a blank stare (their
mind shuts off) or they start with the, "Yes but...." and go into a mindless
rambling discourse jumping from one out of context scripture to another to
their magazines and books, back to the bible... it's insane.
I might also suggest that during the depths of the cold
war they were coming round predicting our imminent
demise but that we did eventually emerge from those
dark days as optimists predicted they would.
Nothing will get through to more than 90% of them. To get anywhere you
actually have to deprogram them.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 08:52:53 AM |
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On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:14:34 +0100, les_on_usenet
<delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:15:55 -0500, "The Heretic"
<durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote:
"Andy W" <vorath@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1186096207.314501.300820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
They quite often speak to my wife though,
who tends to see them off by being relentlessly optimistic in the face
of their perpetual doom and gloom.
Thay hate that! They hate when people are optimistic and they can't bring
them down with their depressing bullcrap.
I usually challenge them to cite any previous age where mankind, as
a whole, were better than we are now. I also point out that, in
spite of setbacks (Black Death, WW2 and the invention of gods
and the conflicts they caused) the general trend of the history of
mankind has been one of continuous progress and improvement and I
saw no reason for supposing that trend will not continue.
For the working people who survived it, the Black Death was actually a
good thing: wages went up significantly. We Americans would prefer,
though, that you not mention WWII, now that we have our own Mussolini.
I might also suggest that during the depths of the cold
war they were coming round predicting our imminent
demise but that we did eventually emerge from those
dark days as optimists predicted they would.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
I have enjoyed the sig line since it first appeared: we tease
southerners here for not forgetting the Civil War, but this trumps it
by 4 centuries. Whenever I see an episode of "Last of the Summer
Wine," I feel like emmigrating to your gorgeous country (though I
suspect that the choice of locations to shoot was _very_ carefully
made).
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
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| User: "Vlad the accountant" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 08:16:57 AM |
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Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
I have enjoyed the sig line since it first appeared: we tease
southerners here for not forgetting the Civil War, but this trumps it
by 4 centuries. Whenever I see an episode of "Last of the Summer
Wine," I feel like emmigrating to your gorgeous country (though I
suspect that the choice of locations to shoot was _very_ carefully
made).
I'm Welsh, we've been ***** since 1284!
.
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 01:14:00 PM |
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On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 13:16:57 -0000, Vlad the accountant
<vlad.the.accountant@googlemail.com> wrote:
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
I have enjoyed the sig line since it first appeared: we tease
southerners here for not forgetting the Civil War, but this trumps it
by 4 centuries. Whenever I see an episode of "Last of the Summer
Wine," I feel like emmigrating to your gorgeous country (though I
suspect that the choice of locations to shoot was _very_ carefully
made).
I'm Welsh, we've been ***** since 1284!
Since Ed the Oneth? I thought you guys would have it in for the
Saxons, too.
(Incidentally, I relish your handle!)
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
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| User: "les_on_usenet" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 09:58:20 AM |
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On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 08:52:53 -0500, Don Martin
<drdonmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 11:14:34 +0100, les_on_usenet
<delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:15:55 -0500, "The Heretic"
<durondae_@_hotpop.com> wrote:
"Andy W" <vorath@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:1186096207.314501.300820@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
They quite often speak to my wife though,
who tends to see them off by being relentlessly optimistic in the face
of their perpetual doom and gloom.
Thay hate that! They hate when people are optimistic and they can't bring
them down with their depressing bullcrap.
I usually challenge them to cite any previous age where mankind, as
a whole, were better than we are now. I also point out that, in
spite of setbacks (Black Death, WW2 and the invention of gods
and the conflicts they caused) the general trend of the history of
mankind has been one of continuous progress and improvement and I
saw no reason for supposing that trend will not continue.
For the working people who survived it, the Black Death was actually a
good thing: wages went up significantly. We Americans would prefer,
though, that you not mention WWII, now that we have our own Mussolini.
I might also suggest that during the depths of the cold
war they were coming round predicting our imminent
demise but that we did eventually emerge from those
dark days as optimists predicted they would.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
I have enjoyed the sig line since it first appeared: we tease
southerners here for not forgetting the Civil War, but this trumps it
by 4 centuries. Whenever I see an episode of "Last of the Summer
Wine," I feel like emmigrating to your gorgeous country (though I
suspect that the choice of locations to shoot was _very_ carefully
made).
As far as we are concerned "The Civil war" was between Charles I
and parliament led by Cromwell. It was a battle to determine who ruled
the country: the people in Parliament, or the King. Parliament
won.(true a minority had the vote but it was a major step forward)
It also ended the principle that monarchs reigned claiming
divine right so to do.
The War you refer to was, "The War of The Roses" and it was not
so much a civil war as a medieval family feud in which the people were
just pawns.
The original filming of was in Holmfirth a south Pennine village on
the edge of extensive moorland, but now a wide varieties of locations
are used. Greenhead Park Huddersfield for instance (a favourite park
when a lad)
http://www.area5.co.uk/holmfirth/holmfsv.htm
When a young lad I used to explore Holmfirth, the hills
and the Holme valley around. A first of the summer winers if you like
:-)
The canal scenes (going back a few series) as well as some scenes near
an old pack horse bridge were made at Tunnel End Marsden (Standedge
Tunnel) a few miles away in the adjacent Colne valley.
http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/huddersfield/hnc40.htm
The pub they often use is it at Jackson Bridge on the
Huddersfield-Sheffield road.
http://www.the-red-lion-inn.com/
All real locations (apart from interior shots) and typical
of the area.
Yorkshire has always been a popular destination, especially York
but Holmfirth was not on the tourist map until Summer Wine. An
even more attractive South Pennine town is Hebden Bridge
and that draws many more tourists (including me once in while)
http://www.hebdenbridge.co.uk/tourist-info/
Come and enjoy we welcome people wi' brass (money :-)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 12:42:50 PM |
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On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:58:20 +0100, les_on_usenet
<delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Come and enjoy we welcome people wi' brass (money :-)
Thanks for that--I am keeping the whole post for future reference. If
I bring money by talk funny, will I still be welcome?
WOA* #2278
If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel
http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
__________
*Wicked Old Atheist
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| User: "les_on_usenet" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
04 Aug 2007 12:22:46 PM |
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On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 12:42:50 -0500, Don Martin
<drdonmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:58:20 +0100, les_on_usenet
<delete-unread@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Come and enjoy we welcome people wi' brass (money :-)
Thanks for that--I am keeping the whole post for future reference. If
I bring money by talk funny, will I still be welcome?
You wll always get a welcome rich or poor even if you do
have a US accent.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Into your home |
09 Aug 2007 10:40:51 PM |
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On Aug 1, 7:16 pm, wrote:
At the Door and Into your Home
It's a quiet Saturday afternoon. You're sitting in your favorite chair,
reading the newspaper. The doorbell rings. You answer it and encounter two
bright-faced people. They're well dressed, and each carries a briefcase.
For a moment you think they're going to sell you life insurance, but they
seem too cheerful for that.
You guess that they must be Jehovah's Witnesses, and sure enough they
start talking about a wondrous hope for the future. They don't actually
say they're Witnesses, but when one of them whisks out a Bible you can see
some copies of the Watchtower magazine in his briefcase.
They ask you for your opinion of world events, and what you think is going
to happen if things continue to get worse. You reflect that there are a
lot of problems, and you do sometimes wonder where it's leading. You
invite them in to talk.
Now, normally you don't invite strangers into your home, but these people
seem harmless enough. You've heard about the legendary honesty of
Jehovah's Witnesses. You decide not to worry about your possessions or
your money.
There's something else you should worry about.
A Single Road to the Promised Land
Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to get people talking about "the state of
the world" and lead the discussion in such a way that their religion will
appear to be your only hope. If you are not prepared for their
indoctrination procedure, you may conclude that only Jehovah's Witnesses
can fill your life with meaning and protect you from the trials and
tribulations of life.
The first thing they do is cultivate your fear.
All of us are afraid of the unknown. What will happen tomorrow? Will I be
fired? What if there's a nuclear war? What if I get sick? These 'what if'
questions are the sparks that the Witnesses will fan into a flame.
The Witnesses at your door have a purpose in mind: to convert you to their
religion. If you ask them point-blank if that is their purpose, they will
usually deny it. They will say that they are there to discuss "the state
of the world" or "the Bible" or "a hope for the future". This evasiveness
is understandable; if they blatantly told people they were there to
convert them, they wouldn't get anybody to listen!
In building up your fear, Witnesses can cite countless statistics to
'prove' that the world is in a dire state. Some of their statements are
true, some are out of date, and some are wrong.
Anybody can inadvertently deliver incorrect data. The Witnesses, however,
deliver selective information designed to paint a woeful picture. While
there are many things wrong with the world, there are many good things,
too. Most of the people who read this article live in better health -- and
longer -- than the richest king of ancient times.
Alongside their bleak picture of the future, the Witnesses present an
image of a glorious future, where you will live forever in a paradise.
This is very appealing, and it is hard not to be tempted. We all yearn for
a 'Garden of Eden', and many people take regular vacations in exotic
locales such as Hawaii or Tahiti to sample a bit of the good life.
At a Disadvantage
How can you throw them out when they're offering you such a splendid
future? Why should you get angry? Wouldn't that be rude? The Witnesses
make the most headway with people who are polite. Their entire ministry
would fail if people were less friendly to uninvited people knocking at
their door.
I am not suggesting that you be nasty to people who visit you unannounced.
However, if you are planning to debate with Witnesses, bear in mind that
they are well trained. They have a weekly meeting (the Theocratic Ministry
School) which is designed to help them express ideas convincingly. The
average person is not as well qualified to argue such matters.
Even if you are well educated and articulate, you are probably not well
versed in religious matters. Witnesses 'live, eat and breathe' their
religion and can devastate most people in a debate. They know their
doctrine very well, because they study it continuously. They've been
taught answers to virtually every objection, which brings to mind the
salesman's credo: "If you can answer every objection, you'll make the sale".
If you can answer every objection, it does not mean that you are right (or
that the product you are selling is better than the rest). It means that
you are better at debates than the other person. Confidence tricksters ply
their trade by convincing people that the seemingly impossible is in fact
possible. (I am not equating Witnesses with criminals, by the way, but
demonstrating the principle that "Cogency is not validity". What seems too
good to be true is usually not true.)
For all their skill, Witnesses are not invincible debaters. It is possible
to poke a hole in their rhetoric -- especially if you are familiar with
their doctrine, or have a good background in the Bible, science, or
history. In such cases, Witnesses will subtly sidestep the issue.
I just thank them for coming by and tell them I am not interested.
They are free to ring my bell...no law against it.
.....my discussion of this topic from an earlier post.
Andrealphus writes:
"Historically, whenever Christians say that "We offer peace and
charity to all mankind", everyone else knows that it's time to hide
the cattle."
V writes:
"Sure, you are right Andrealphus that actions speak louder than
words...but the words are a start as they define the actions."
Andrealphus writes:
"I see no historical precedence for this among Christians. A holier
than thou attitude does not automatically indicate "right" anything.
I'd just as soon see the actions, and have them keep the words to
yourself. It's the best of both worlds, good actions, and peace and
quiet.-"
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
You are right and you are wrong Andrealphus.
I would sperate your subjective views from the argument to get at the
bottom of 'what is allowed and what is not allowed' as a general rule
for living within society.
Once we do this, we can see how much of the argument balances on our
personal prejudices Andrealphus.
Sure actions must match words and you are within your rights to hate
Christians, Jews, Muslims or whatever other group you wish to.
Evaluating the 'hatred quotient' is always a good tool to use to see
when an argument is ego based or truth based.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=627.0
For instance, would an all good, all loving, all perfect God promote
the use of calling others 'dirty infidels' or 'filthy heathens'.
Or in the case of those free from the God delusion...religious
fucktards?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tasteless.jokes/browse_frm/thread/85cfd9a2f508980/52c7a003b2e2027d?lnk=gst&q=religous+fucktards&rnum=1&hl=en#52c7a003b2e2027d
No, these are all man-made creations that stem from bigotry, personal
prejudices and hatred.
And once injected into the mind of man, they sprout and grow and
become cries of 'kill the infidels'...'destroy the filthy atheists'
and 'burn down the churches of the religious fuckatrds.'
http://www.churcharson.com/act_now/
You are within your rights Andrealphus to not hear a word from another
person...as long as you can figure out where to live so you never run
into another human.
But it is also within a persons rights to ask you if you are feeling
OK, are lost or offer you some water if you looked parched.
The problem arises when they force medicine on you, force you to go in
their direction or force you to drink.
You see, everyone is not up to snuff with living a life at peace and
some of us need some help.
Of course, not all atheists agree with me on this point...as Enkidu
wrote:
"You (V) have nothing to say that we haven't heard before, nothing to
say that hasn't been say better by others, and nothing to say that was
worth hearing when said better by others. Your pathetic little turds
of truth are unoriginal, irrational, ill-conceived, ill-received, and
devoid of value." (condensed)
Enkidu's gifted eloquence notwithstanding - if he and other atheists
know all there is to know about everything under the sun...what is
stopping them from living a life at peace?
They cannot claim that theists stop them, for as soon we blame our
lack of peace on another we don't even have the basics of peace
program to pay lip service to?
Yet atheist claim they already know it all?
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=613.0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701
Now, my own philosophy differs quite bit from Enkidu, as I believe the
business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life at
peace.
And in fact, I have a vested interest in this philosophy.
For in the end, your sanity becomes my sanity and my sanity becomes
your sanity.
Don't believe this?
Remember the killings at Virginia Tech?
57 people shot or killed?
Atheists claiming the killer was a Christian?
Christians claiming the killer was an atheist?
Does it even matter?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre
Let me illustrate how we all are in this together Andrealphus.
A millionaires daughter was a student at Virginia Tech. She was living
a happy, carefree life as any millionaires child might do. But one day
she ran into Seung-Hui Cho.
She was subsequently shot, as some other 56 were.
She lived, but is now she is paralyzed.
Seung-Hui Cho's sanity became her sanity...a sanity she lives with for
the rest of her life.
Seung-Hui Cho's sanity also became the sanity for the other 56 people
that shared his thoughts that day.
I don't know what his religious affiliations were, if any.
If Seung-Hui Cho was a Christian, his fellow practitioners may have
failed him...but where were the atheists secular humanists to take up
the slack of the Christians shortcomings?
Where were the atheists to ask Seung-Hui Cho if he needed a drink or
was lost when the Christians may have failed him? (Again, I do not
know what religion the killer was if any and am using this as an
illustration only. So don't get stuck on the blame game.)
Well, atheist don't want people to bother them and they want to leave
everyone else alone as well.
After all, charity is associated with Christians and atheists and
Christians do not get along.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/327805fdd9caec99/c99a0e01b4947eca?hl=en#c99a0e01b4947eca
I suggest you read the 'informal creed' of atheism that discusses this
topic Andrealphus.
(Snip)
"An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy."
As such I ask if someone is thirsty and needs a drink when I see them
parched.
And if I am mistaken, then no harm done. I leave them in peace, but I
do ask.
This relationship of interdependent humanistic balance can best be
visualized in the 3 corners of a triangle which represents the
spiritual realm, other persons and ourselves
At the top goes Higher Power / God of Nature and God of Peace /
Buddha / The Dharma / Universe / Karma or whatever you choose as the
unseen force behind all.
On the bottom right corner of the triangle goes other people. On the
left bottom corner of the triangle goes yourself.
Keeping this relationship in harmonious balance helps develop
compassion for others and humility within ourselves.
We learn to think about others and the spirit as well as our own needs
and we can then see we are all interdependent and not independent with
all.
Once you see this balance you will realize that we all share the same
breath and no need to practice hatred or develop ill will towards
others. It is much better to develop compassion for others.
For as we develop compassion for others we develop peace within.
This also helps me with keeping an open mind for peace generators in
my life.
As such, I practice from any spiritual tradition without problems or
prejudices and readily look for such gifts irrespective of what label
they come under. I even use tools from the atheists as I have
mentioned with the creed.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
Lets also look at this topic from an earlier post Andrealphus.
Kelsey Bjarnason:
"What the hell would we (atheists) need "spiritual values" for when we
can have real values instead?"
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
V:
Hi and thank you for your reply Kelsey.
Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the
wind is hard to define.
Since spiritual matters deal with the unseen and the unknown, how can
we define them perfectly?
If we could do that they would not be spiritual studies.
You can't see why one person is loving and kind and another person is
a fiend of perennial shame, hate and destruction.
Nor can you see what made the hate monger change into a kind and
loving human.
We can describe spiritual concepts and the journey that made the
change possible, but it is impossible to put our finger on it all
exactly.
Spiritual growth is a journey that is a never ending, an imperfect
process in this life.
But just as we can see the effects of the wind and gravity, while
being blind to its source; we can most definitely see the difference
in people that incorporate spiritual values within their lives when
compared to people that live a life devoid of any spiritual values.
No one said we have to 'investigate it all,' but we do have to give it
some thought if we wish to be at peace.
A Hindu sage once told me "Just as water floes downhill without effort
but requires outside forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the
human consciousness falls to its lowest levels of the senses without
effort and energies to make our consciousness gravitate to more than
our base desires."
As such without effort, the defiance based atheists sinks deeper and
deeper into sickness and tragedy as time goes by.
Lets look at some of the 'real values' that atheists develop once they
drop spirituality from the equation Kelsey.
As you can see below, the defiance based, mind manacled, spiritually
sick atheist can go out of their way to be very cruel.
The Buddhists follow the eightfold path of right living and one of
these paths encompasses right speech.
One time I brought up this subject of right speech at alt.atheism and
was responded to as such.
Robibnikoff wrote: "So. Fucking what...do you think I give a flying
***** what you think, dipshit...Not that it's any of YOUR fucking
business...Don't presume that you know what's best for me, you
deluded, motherfucking, cocksucking son of a *****." (condensed)
With my first few posts, I offered to discuss tools that the atheist,
agnostic or theist can all share to develop inner peace.
These are just a few of the responses at alt.atheism on the topics of
developing compassion, simplicity, ethics, morals, mindfulness,
reciprocity, philosophical studies, charity, accepting impermanence,
and developing gratitude.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "So fucking what? Keep it to yourself and
nobody will know what an ***** you are."
Kate wrote: "I've never been not at peace. What you offer makes me
physically ill. It's like a nasty man come round to tell little
kiddees he has candy for them if they touch his pee pee. You know,
most of the atheists I know are as good as children are at discerning
misrepresentation. You aren't trying to help anyone but your own
self. Go away, we have no interest in touching your pee pee."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "What the ***** has philosophy got to do
with your in-your-face psychopathy?"
Michael Gray wrote: "Stop posting your vile polemic deliberately
nasty, lying Christian? . Please go away. No-one is buying your
poisonous diatribe. Are you really this stupid, or just pretending?"
John Baker wrote: "First of all, this is a newsgroup, not the
freaking public library. Keep it short and to the point. Second,
you're full of *****."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "We know this deliberately nasty,
slandering liar is a Christian by his fruits...a liar as well as an
idiot...don't be so fucking stupid."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "You wouldn't know "virtuous behaviour" if
it hit you over the head, whining hypocrite who needs to get the log
out of his own eye before accusing us of a projection of his own
deficiencies."
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "a few hundred lines of irrelevant *****
by a whining hypocrite who
doesn't practice what he preaches, deleted"
Robibnikoff wrote: "Shaddup, you *****."
Michael Gray wrote: "There ain't nothin' lamer than a jabriol
fuckwit"
Christopher A. Lee wrote: "Whi give a *****, in-your-face stuipid
moron?"
John Baker wrote: 'I'd almost feel sorry for him if he wasn't such
a disgusting piece of *****."
Robibnikoff wrote: "I hope that stupid fucker (V) doesn't think I
actually read all that dog ***** he posts."
Robibnikoff wrote: "....no one gives a ***** what you think."
Stoney wrote: "Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to shove a
wooden cross up their arses and rotate at a high rate of speed. I
trust you'll be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could send you an almost endless supply of such material to prove
the point that without spiritual values, the atheist is sunk.
The conundrum of the mind manacled, defiance based, spiritually sick
atheist is this.
They need spiritual values to be at peace - yet their own defiance
blocks them from seeking and finding these values.
The atheist that only has a foundation of ego and hate will never find
peace.
If any theist questioning their faith should wonder onto alt.atheism,
for instance, they could see this for themselves with many spiritually
sick example members and their projection of this spiritual sickness
and self hate onto others
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robibnikoff wrote: "Blah, blah, blah... you boring sack of *****."
Mark K Bilbo wrote: "..you're an *****...a self-absorbed *****
who thinks everything is about him."
Mark K Bilbo wrote: "For a "peace" freak, you sure are a spiteful
little *****."
Panama Floyd wrote: "...this guy is funny. Why don't we wait a while
before we eat him? Maybe he'll poopie himself!."
John Baker wrote: "Oh, shut the ***** up, you self-righteous twit."
Robibnikoff wrote: "***** you, liar"
Michael Gray wrote: "You exhibit all the signs of full clinical
sociopathy, if not actual psychopathy. You need professional help, but
won't take it, as that would entail admitting that the Fuckups that
are always happening to you are YOUR fault."
Michael Gray wrote: "If you insist upon continuing to strut your
massive ego and miniscule education in alt.atheism, we'll use you for
target practice, until we get bored with your repetitious long-winded
empty-headed *****-frosted ignorance."
Michael Gray wrote: "What do you expect from a lying sack of *****?"
Raven1 wrote: "God, will you get over that fucking ego of yours
already?"
Mark K Bilbo wrote: "what you write is self-absorbed,
condescending, arrogant rife, ego masturbation. You're in love with
yourself, don't care what other people think or feel, and have the
emotional maturity of a two year old."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All atheists are not like this Andrealphus.
Some spiritual based atheist far surpass theists in compassion and
inner peace.
The troubling thing at alt.atheism is no one speaks out against such
illness and this IS being promoted as atheistic view.
I wrote to the president of American Atheists, I wrote to the UK
Atheists as well s a Secular Humanist Foundation and Sam Harris about
this very topic...none had the courtesy to respond.
Atheists are their own worse enemy when it comes to promoting their
cause and trampling over organized religion.
Just as the bible is a major force with theists leaving religion, the
spiritually sick, mind manacled, defiance based atheist is the best
reason that theists return to their religion.
Such wavering theists quickly come to realize that without a
foundation spirituality the atheist is sunk and rapidly head back to
their church, temple or fellowship to get away from such people.
I brought up the topic of developing a 'church of sorts' or atheist
fellowship to lend guidance and support for right living and
reinforcing the ethics morals and the ideals of atheists and secular
humanism.
I'll leave you with just a few more quotes from Panama Floyd as he
writes on the subject of developing human empathy and compassion to
support moral, ethical and right living through such a fellowship:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Panama Floyd wrote: "The only thing I need to "support moral,
ethical and right living" is simple human empathy and compassion. That
anyone would need anything else is a mystery to me. Perhaps I'm just a
better person than they are (V)."
Panama Floyd wrote: "Then don't whine like a ***** when your butt
gets fucked,"
Panama Floyd wrote:: "...Take it (bible) and shove it up that smelly
little ***** you're using for a *****."
Panama Floyd wrote: "You're not smart enough, or brave enough to be
an atheist. Keep your idiotic dead-jew-on-a-stick, buttsuck. Fear of
it is probably the only thing keeping you from having sex with your
siblings."
Panama Floyd wrote: "Shaddap, *****. If I want your opinion, I'll
give you one."
Panama Floyd wrote:: "Go ***** yourself, Christian...Were I a violent
man, I'd advocate you all being rounded up and jailed, to keep you
from ruining other lives."
Panama Floyd wrote: "Go ***** yourself, shitstain. You come in here
and insult people-and then whine about the reception you get? *****, I
wish it caused you physical pain to be so ruthlessly stupid."
Panama Floyd wrote: "***** ya brainless fucking twat!"
Panama Floyd wrote: "***** Jesus. Your dead-jew-on-a-stick probably
never existed, and if he did, he was man-not a god. I don't take
"commands" from an illiterate, superstitious Bronze Age peasant.'
Panama Floyd: wrote: "What are *you* doing back here, you dumb *****-
assed punk? Ways of disposing with the human garbage called
"missionaries" is very definately on-topic."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion...as you give so your receive.
When you practice destroying others peace, you will reap self
destruction of inner peace...as you give so your receive
This is universal truth once the prejudice of ego is stripped away
Andrealphus.
Whether atheists, theists or Buddhists, I submit that you all drop the
pretense and lies that you have been grasping onto for entire life and
rebuild your life through a foundation of truth and testing and
regenerate yourselves into a truth based agnostic freethinker striving
to be at peace within and with all.
No, Kelsey, I stand by my statement 100% that without spiritual
values, the atheist is sunk.
Words give a glimpse of what our insides are like. Whenever we beat
down others to boost our ego we will never find the peace that we are
desperately seeking Andrealphus.
Destroying others to glorify our ego is not the answer my friends.
And until you change, you will continue on your mockery of a life that
can best be described as the tragedy upon humanity that manifests
itself as the defiance, based, mind manacled, spiritually sick
atheist.
Also see:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
.
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