| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Matthew Olszewski" |
| Date: |
10 May 2005 01:46:12 AM |
| Object: |
Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only “good” people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
“loss of potential” in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, “*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!” when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
~Matt
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 10:03:47 PM |
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"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God.
This makes no sense, as the christian God displays nothing but contempt for
human life (and all other life for that matter).
There is no such thing as "intrinsic" value in human life, or anything else,
in the sense that christians claim to understand it. Any intrinsic value
that may exist is entirely separate from 3000 year old tribal superstitions
which specify that (1) humans are descended from dirt, (2) all humans must
toil, suffer, and die, (3) all but a tiny handful of humans can be
exterminated by the Deity on a whim, (4) all humans are so inherently
disgusting that they can only be redeemed by the torture and murder of God
incarnate, and even then an unspecified percentage have no hope of
redemption.
After these obvious points are made there is no need for the discussion to
proceed any further.
_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 10:31:44 AM |
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"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life has
intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more than
others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
There isn't.
We assign value to human life.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 07:54:19 PM |
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Denis Loubet wrote:
"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life
has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more than
others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of
the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
There isn't.
We assign value to human life.
The problem is, who is we?
Stalin? Hitler? Those who follow them?
Values have to be taught to people and
when those with the prison cells and the guns
decide on bad values, we are in trouble.
Bush with his lies and deceits is a slippery slope
downwards. We value a brain dead woman in Florida
while ignoring several cases of children cut off from
life support because the insurance money ran out, with
no complaints from the right. This is the eye opener here.
Values, only as far as it stirs up the ***** for far
right political values.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 08:35:03 PM |
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"wcb" <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:1182lej92i23465@corp.supernews.com...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life
has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more
than
others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of
the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
There isn't.
We assign value to human life.
The problem is, who is we?
Everyone.
Stalin? Hitler? Those who follow them?
Everyone.
Values have to be taught to people and
when those with the prison cells and the guns
decide on bad values, we are in trouble.
Good values and bad values are values just the same.
Bush with his lies and deceits is a slippery slope
downwards. We value a brain dead woman in Florida
while ignoring several cases of children cut off from
life support because the insurance money ran out, with
no complaints from the right. This is the eye opener here.
That different people place a different value on human life?
This is not a surprise.
The *magnitude* of the difference may be a surprise...
Values, only as far as it stirs up the ***** for far
right political values.
It demonstrate what little value they have applied to human life.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 10:46:46 AM |
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On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:31:44 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life has
intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more than
others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
There isn't.
We assign value to human life.
Because we are a social species with a sense of empathy to our
fellows.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 07:54:55 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:31:44 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com>
wrote:
"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life
has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more
than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of
their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of
the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
There isn't.
We assign value to human life.
Because we are a social species with a sense of empathy to our
fellows.
History shows relying on empathy is a fool's game.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 06:07:47 PM |
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"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life has
intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more than
others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters shooting
deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against hunting or for
gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a different reaction comes
about entirely. I attempted to ascribe intrinsic value to only “good”
people because they contribute positively to society and mankind as a
whole. However, if that were the case, why do we cry over the death of a
child who has contributed nothing to society or has been a burden on it.
It cannot be that we only see the “loss of potential” in their life. I
also don't feel that it could only be an animal instinct, seeing the
prevention of the prorogation of our species. I surely don't think,
“*****! One less human to carry our species forward!” when I hear about
the death of children. Please, what do you all think?
I woudl say, that like human rights, it is a matter of symmetry. I value my
own life very highly. I recognize that others values thiers likewise, in
most cases. So, as part of community, I benefit from others helping to
perserve my life in exchange for me helping them pereserve their own.
Rather like my freedom of speech implies that others have the same freedom,
and I'll defend it, even if I don't like what they say.
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| User: "Matthew Olszewski" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 09:12:29 PM |
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Fester wrote:
I woudl say, that like human rights, it is a matter of symmetry. I value my
own life very highly. I recognize that others values thiers likewise, in
most cases. So, as part of community, I benefit from others helping to
perserve my life in exchange for me helping them pereserve their own.
Rather like my freedom of speech implies that others have the same freedom,
and I'll defend it, even if I don't like what they say.
Thank you Fester.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 04:22:25 PM |
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"Matthew Olszewski" <molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu...
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got onto
the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human life has
intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth more than
others, him saying everyones life is worth the same, regardless of their
actions), though I could not explain why. He claimed it was because of the
Christian God. Therefore, I pose the following question to the atheists
out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters shooting
deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against hunting or for
gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a different reaction comes
about entirely. I attempted to ascribe intrinsic value to only “good”
people because they contribute positively to society and mankind as a
whole. However, if that were the case, why do we cry over the death of a
child who has contributed nothing to society or has been a burden on it.
It cannot be that we only see the “loss of potential” in their life. I
also don't feel that it could only be an animal instinct, seeing the
prevention of the prorogation of our species. I surely don't think,
“*****! One less human to carry our species forward!” when I hear about
the death of children. Please, what do you all think?
It's subjective.
--
rb
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 08:08:23 AM |
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In article <d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu>, Matthew Olszewski
<molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only ́goodî people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
́loss of potentialî in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, ́*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!î when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
Hasn't it been determined that the intrinsic value of human life is
something like 97 cents?
Of course, it could be more now, with inflation.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
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| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 03:55:58 PM |
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On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:08:23 -0500, Frank J Warner wrote
(in article <100520050608232772%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net>):
In article <d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu>, Matthew Olszewski
<molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only ́goodî people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
́loss of potentialî in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, ́*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!î when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
Hasn't it been determined that the intrinsic value of human life is
something like 97 cents?
Of course, it could be more now, with inflation.
That would not be so much an intrinsic value, but more like market value (a
very different sort of beast.)
Also that is the market value (approximate) of the elemental constituents of
the human body, there is much more value if you go by organized parts, the
piece of human bone that is currently helping to hold my neck spine together
is worth one hell of a lot to me, far more than the very minor value of the
calcium, water, iron, etc. incorporated within it. Compare the value to such
things as a ton of rust versus half a ton of machined steel watch cogs, the
value is far higher with the latter than the former.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³Of course *you use an operating system hand woven on a loom at a co-op in
the Andean mountains I'm sure.³-Mark K. Bilbo
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 09:49:29 PM |
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In article <0001HW.BEA68A0E0066163DF0284550@news.central.cox.net>,
Harry F. Leopold <hleopold@coxyx.net> wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2005 08:08:23 -0500, Frank J Warner wrote
(in article <100520050608232772%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net>):
In article <d5plbb$jp8$1@news.service.uci.edu>, Matthew Olszewski
<molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only ́goodî people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
́loss of potentialî in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, ́*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!î when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
Hasn't it been determined that the intrinsic value of human life is
something like 97 cents?
Of course, it could be more now, with inflation.
That would not be so much an intrinsic value, but more like market value (a
very different sort of beast.)
Also that is the market value (approximate) of the elemental constituents of
the human body, there is much more value if you go by organized parts, the
piece of human bone that is currently helping to hold my neck spine together
is worth one hell of a lot to me, far more than the very minor value of the
calcium, water, iron, etc. incorporated within it. Compare the value to such
things as a ton of rust versus half a ton of machined steel watch cogs, the
value is far higher with the latter than the former.
I was thinking of "intrinsic value" as used by a numismatist. The
market value of an investment-grade coin is often much more than the
intrinsic value of its metal content.
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 03:25:01 AM |
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Matthew Olszewski wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
See Romans 8 - 11. All is predestined, who shall be damned,
who is elect and saved.
Now obviously, god does not hold all equal.
Romans 11, god is said to have hardened the hearts
of the Jews to reject Jesus.
And of course we have god supposedly holding
the Jews as his chosen people and commanding
them to commit genocides, especially on the Canaanites.
We have the Israelites having so forgotten god that he
hs to reintroduce himself to them via Moses.
But he never bothers to appear to the Egyptians or
the Canaanites. He never warns them they displease him
and give them a chance to be taken into his favor.
So according to the OT, the lives of Canaanites are of no
intristic value at all.
This ugly god also plays the trick of asking Moses to demand freedom from
Pharoah, who always says yes, then hardening his heart so he changes his
mind and says no.
Giving god a bad excuse to kill all the first born of Egypt.
So obviously, their lives were of no value to god.
Joshua 11, he hardens the hearts of the Canaanites trying
to make peace with invading Isrealites to keep the killing
going on.
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
Read the bible, you see very little value in life from god.
Who says there is intristic value in human life?
Not god nor the bible. So who did start that line of thought?
Greek philosophers, people like Socrates and Epicurus.
The Bible? God forbids censuses of Israel, and then moves
David to make a census of Israel. And as a punishment, cause 10,000
Israelites to die in a plague.
Not much value of human life here, right?
Luckily all this god nonsense turned out to be
fables, not history.
Archaeology has debunked all these tales.
But if you can't trust the bible, and the nasty billy goat
herders who wrote these fables did not portray god as valuing
life, and Paul does not, where the hell do we get the ideas
that high values of life came from the Bible?
The religous wars of the 1500's killed 1/4 of Europe.
The idea that human life has value seems to come from
later philosphers such as Mill, Kant, Locke and other
moral thinkers.
When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only ?good? people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
?loss of potential? in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, ?*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!? when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
~Matt
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Matthew Olszewski" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 03:09:25 PM |
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wcb wrote:
Matthew Olszewski wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
Who says there is intristic value in human life?
Not god nor the bible. So who did start that line of thought?
Greek philosophers, people like Socrates and Epicurus.
The idea that human life has value seems to come from
later philosphers such as Mill, Kant, Locke and other
moral thinkers.
Thank you for your response! Though, I still have a few questions. I
agree with what you say and it makes sense. However, does that mean
that before the Greeks, mankind did not value life the same way it does
today? I'm fairly certain (though I cannot cite sources so correct me
if i'm wrong) that there are stories (not fairy tales, but scribed in
stone or on papyrus) from times before the Greeks in which one man
valued the life of another man?
Also, I haven't read much from the classic philosophers so why do they
say we value human life? Thank you.
.
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| User: "wcb" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 07:48:57 PM |
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Matthew Olszewski wrote:
wcb wrote:
Matthew Olszewski wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life?
Who says there is intristic value in human life?
Not god nor the bible. So who did start that line of thought?
Greek philosophers, people like Socrates and Epicurus.
The idea that human life has value seems to come from
later philosphers such as Mill, Kant, Locke and other
moral thinkers.
Thank you for your response! Though, I still have a few questions. I
agree with what you say and it makes sense. However, does that mean
that before the Greeks, mankind did not value life the same way it does
today?
No. The Greeks were not a homogenous people who all
believed the same. Many a high minded philosopher had
to flee for his life at one point or the other, often
for his opinion, witness Socrates was was executed for his moral
investigations of Greek life.
In fact, Greek civilization was often rather crude and
harsh. It was not until the Athenians had the good luck
to have some thoughtful leaders did things start to change.
Until then, life was rather feudal..Even then, the supposedly
enlightened Greeks did not value slaves or women much.
Like everything in history, these things had their ups and downs.
A study of history helps here. Some other groups of people
were horrors. The Assyrians and Babylonians for example who
thought little of invading nations, decimating them and moving
whole populations around.
One the other hand, Cyrus the Mede was very enlightened
for his age.
The Romans took a wrong turn with adopting gladiators from
the Etruscians and had a truely ugly civilization that often
valued human life hardly at all.
On the other hand, they had the Stoics who valued life very much.
Some christians did have a enlightened view, but these had
its ups and downs too. They could be truely horrendous in case
of stamping out fellow unorthodox christians and pagans.
Again, reading history is needed to sort all of this out.
There were long arguments about all of this through
time. Sometimes these arguments bore fruit, sometimes not.
I'm fairly certain (though I cannot cite sources so correct me
if i'm wrong) that there are stories (not fairy tales, but scribed in
stone or on papyrus) from times before the Greeks in which one man
valued the life of another man?
Yes. We have Hamurabbi's laws which valued human life.
Egyptain laws are often quite good and value life dearly.
There are high points. We had the early Israelites condemning child
sacrifice. And hints that they themselves had practiced it.
On the other hand, we had the religous wars of the 1500's that
killed 1/4 of Europe.
Sometimes, people just don't care, sometimes they do and try.
Sometimes its more lip service. History is complex.
We have the RCC with its high sounding religous ideals.
Mixed with heresy hunts and pogroms.
Also, I haven't read much from the classic philosophers so why do they
say we value human life? Thank you.
We value life for this resason. If we do not value life, and do
not restrain and punish those who do not, our lives are not going
to be valued by others.
This is the realization we had after the Reformation,
Counter-Reformation ad religous wars of the 1500's and worse.
Thomas Hobbes was one of the first philosphers to state this
openly in his book, Leviathan.
Civilization was meant to force values on all, so we all may have
our lives valued.
Since Hobbes, this has been in the West, more or less, the
main foundational idea of what values should be and why they
should be. With the usual ups and downs. Such as Hitler's
Germany, 1936.
Or Stalin's Russia where life was not valued at all
and Stalin could kill 20 million kulacks, peasants,
to enforce collectivization.
These show what happens when life is not valued, for
religous or political or ideological reasons.
Hobbes, Locke, and others were the foundational thinkers
of this nation's founding fathers. With the usual ups and downs,
slavery, indian massacres and broken treaties and slavery.
Slavery and segregation happened in the South, the most religous
area in America. Again, religion does not guaranatee
excellent values.
Pragmaticism, another philosphical idea states openly
that ideas must be judged not on their claims or
rhetorical ideals but the actual results. The goal is, the
most happiness for the most people.
Modern ethics, related to all of this, goes back to
Kant who made one of the first great efforts to
sort out ethics and morals and ideals divorced
from theology in post Rennaisance Europe.
This is not an easy or simple subject to master, people
have been thinking about this deeply for millenia.
And you cannot study value in the abstract. Good sounding
ideals sometimes become horrors in practice.
If you really want to dig into this, find a good used book
store and read Will Durant's long series of volumes, "The Story
of Civilization" Not a perfect history by any measns, it is
a good basic primer and delves deeply into the religous, philosphical
and moral systems of various civilizations and how these
things happened.
You cannot understand philosphy with out history, history
without philosophy, philosphy or history without understanding
the history of religion.
Bertrand Russell's A History of Western Philosophy is a good
companion to this.
History tells you what works and what doesn't, if you can
avoid becoming ideologically involved with pet theories.
And avoid historians with bad ideologies.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "Matthew Olszewski" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 09:13:51 PM |
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wcb wrote:
Matthew Olszewski wrote:
Also, I haven't read much from the classic philosophers so why do they
say we value human life? Thank you.
We value life for this resason. If we do not value life, and do
not restrain and punish those who do not, our lives are not going
to be valued by others.
This is the realization we had after the Reformation,
Counter-Reformation ad religous wars of the 1500's and worse.
Thomas Hobbes was one of the first philosphers to state this
openly in his book, Leviathan.
Civilization was meant to force values on all, so we all may have
our lives valued.
Since Hobbes, this has been in the West, more or less, the
main foundational idea of what values should be and why they
should be. With the usual ups and downs. Such as Hitler's
Germany, 1936.
Or Stalin's Russia where life was not valued at all
and Stalin could kill 20 million kulacks, peasants,
to enforce collectivization.
These show what happens when life is not valued, for
religous or political or ideological reasons.
Hobbes, Locke, and others were the foundational thinkers
of this nation's founding fathers. With the usual ups and downs,
slavery, indian massacres and broken treaties and slavery.
Slavery and segregation happened in the South, the most religous
area in America. Again, religion does not guaranatee
excellent values.
Pragmaticism, another philosphical idea states openly
that ideas must be judged not on their claims or
rhetorical ideals but the actual results. The goal is, the
most happiness for the most people.
Modern ethics, related to all of this, goes back to
Kant who made one of the first great efforts to
sort out ethics and morals and ideals divorced
from theology in post Rennaisance Europe.
This is not an easy or simple subject to master, people
have been thinking about this deeply for millenia.
And you cannot study value in the abstract. Good sounding
ideals sometimes become horrors in practice.
If you really want to dig into this, find a good used book
store and read Will Durant's long series of volumes, "The Story
of Civilization" Not a perfect history by any measns, it is
a good basic primer and delves deeply into the religous, philosphical
and moral systems of various civilizations and how these
things happened.
You cannot understand philosphy with out history, history
without philosophy, philosphy or history without understanding
the history of religion.
Bertrand Russell's A History of Western Philosophy is a good
companion to this.
History tells you what works and what doesn't, if you can
avoid becoming ideologically involved with pet theories.
And avoid historians with bad ideologies.
Thank you wcb
.
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| User: "Azrael" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
11 May 2005 02:14:16 AM |
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On Mon, 09 May 2005 23:46:12 -0700, Matthew Olszewski
<molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only “good” people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
“loss of potential” in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, “*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!” when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
~Matt
We the living humans on planet earth (currently the only know planet
bearing our species) assign this value to life. Go ask the lion in
the zoo what the intrinsic value of human or lion life is, I would be
very surprised if it gave you an answer.
Another thing you could do is to go into a cemetery and ask one of the
dead about the sanctity of life, we made it up, self interest, why
because we are alive. The dead could care less about the sanctity of
life.
Azrael
The thiest/diest defense:
1)I believe in god, ergo god exists
2)I believe in god, ergo I know what god wills, wants, the path to god, etc.
3)I believe in god, ergo I am right/correct
4)You don't agree with me, you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
5)You dont' beleive as I do then you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
6)You want proof of god? (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
7)You have evidence god does not exist (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
8)If you don't believe as I do you are wrong (see 1,2,and/or 3 above)
There was no "before" the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time.
John D. Barrow
Question #1: If I get im my spaceship and fly to the very edge of the universe what do I see out the front window?
Question #2: What is the most mass/matter that a black hole can obsorb and what happens after it reaches that point and trys to absorb more matter?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 04:44:25 PM |
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On Mon, 09 May 2005 23:46:12 -0700, Matthew Olszewski
<molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
His remark begs several questions.
God is so much part of the theist's very being that few of them can
step aside from that presumption. Before he attributes anything at all
to it, he has to get it into out worldview the way he sees it, not the
way we see it. In other worlds he has to get us to see it as more than
a Zeus/Mithras/etc equibalent belief.
He then has to demonstrate objectively that it actually is the cause
of valuing human life.
And also explain why believers in false gods also value human life.
As well as atheists.
In other words it is universal - apart from psychopaths and
sociopaths.
Why is there intrinsic value in human life? When we see hunters
shooting deer, some might say, that sucks, some might lobby against
hunting or for gun control, but when we see a human get shot, a
different reaction comes about entirely. I attempted to ascribe
intrinsic value to only “good” people because they contribute positively
to society and mankind as a whole. However, if that were the case, why
do we cry over the death of a child who has contributed nothing to
society or has been a burden on it. It cannot be that we only see the
“loss of potential” in their life. I also don't feel that it could only
be an animal instinct, seeing the prevention of the prorogation of our
species. I surely don't think, “*****! One less human to carry our
species forward!” when I hear about the death of children. Please, what
do you all think?
~Matt
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| User: "Matthew Olszewski" |
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| Title: Re: Intrinsic Value in Human Life |
10 May 2005 05:08:55 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Mon, 09 May 2005 23:46:12 -0700, Matthew Olszewski
<molszews@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine and we got
onto the topic of intrinsic value in life. We both agreed that a human
life has intrinsic value (myself saying some people's lives are worth
more than others, him saying everyones life is worth the same,
regardless of their actions), though I could not explain why. He
claimed it was because of the Christian God. Therefore, I pose the
following question to the atheists out there:
His remark begs several questions.
God is so much part of the theist's very being that few of them can
step aside from that presumption. Before he attributes anything at all
to it, he has to get it into out worldview the way he sees it, not the
way we see it. In other worlds he has to get us to see it as more than
a Zeus/Mithras/etc equibalent belief.
He then has to demonstrate objectively that it actually is the cause
of valuing human life.
And also explain why believers in false gods also value human life.
As well as atheists.
In other words it is universal - apart from psychopaths and
sociopaths.
He would say that "our" creator gave us that compassion for another
human. That is why it is universal, independent on what we believe, or
dont believe.
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