Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"words of truth"
Date:	15 Jan 2006 11:49:16 PM
Object:	Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History

http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=18320
Invasion of 'Da Vinci' book clones challenges church history,
teaching
By Annamarie Adkins
1/13/2006
National Catholic Register
MALAGA, Spain (National Catholic Register) -- Some Catholics may be
bracing for a new onslaught of confusion about Christ, his teachings
and his church when "The Da Vinci Code" movie opens May 19. But few may
be aware of a challenge on another front: a growing genre of books that
takes church history and gives it a fictional twist under the auspices
of entertainment and enlightenment.
The crop of books set to be released this year -- some reportedly
researched and concocted even before Dan Brown's bestseller hit
bookstores -- are written by American, Spanish and British authors; all
are being translated into dozens of languages and are set for large
first runs with high profile publishers.
Most focus on the supposed deep, dark secrets of the church, such as
crusades against rival sects, the lost treasure of the knights templar,
and what really happened at the Last Supper. The National Catholic
Register interviewed three authors of these religious thrillers to find
out whether their books may further malign the church.
Javier Sierra, an author from Malaga, Spain, promises to "reveal the
unknown secrets" behind Leonardo Da Vinci's painting "The Last
Supper" in his novel The Secret Supper.
"Of course, my book is a fictional work, but based upon real
documents, bibliographical sources and characters of 15th-century
Italy," Sierra told the National Catholic Register. "My idea is to
offer a possible explanation to the anomalies included by Leonardo in
his painting. And if I use a novel, and not a historical essay, it is
because Leonardo did not explain 'The Last Supper' in any of his
notes."
Those "anomalies," according to Sierra, include the fact that
neither Jesus nor his apostles have halos, that Jesus is not
consecrating the Eucharist, that there is no meat on the table (there
should be a Passover lamb), and that there is no chalice. They
correspond with the beliefs of the Cathars, members of a heretical
religious sect that lived in southern France and northern Italy in the
Middle Ages and were dualists -- believing that a good god of spirit
was continually at war with an evil god of matter.
Sierra surmises that Da Vinci incorporated Cathar elements into the
painting because "it was a challenge to paint a Cathar scene in the
very heart of a Dominican priory and the Milanese headquarters of the
Inquisition," he said.
But Bruce Boucher, the Art Institute of Chicago's director of
European Decorative Arts, Sculpture and Ancient Art, said that
Sierra's claims were highly unlikely.
"I don't think that the Dominicans -- who were considered models of
orthodoxy - would allow Leonardo to introduce schismatic beliefs into
'The Last Supper,' commissioned for their refectory. Patrons had
their own ideas of what should be in a painting," Boucher said.
"There was a Florentine tradition of painting scenes of the Last
Supper for convents and priories that stressed the sharing of a meal
between Christ and his disciples -- it was an imitation of Christ and
his disciples when the Dominicans came together for meals."
The Labyrinth
Author Kate Mosse splits her time between homes in West Sussex,
England, and Carcassonne, France, and has set her novel Labyrinth in
Languedoc in southwest France during two different time periods: the
early 13th century and present day.
The plot revolves around three parchments bound into books, said to
contain an ancient secret dating from 2,000 years before the Christian
era in ancient Egypt; the books are lost during the Albigensian Crusade
against the Cathars and rediscovered some 800 years later.
"In Labyrinth, I was not writing about the church or deliberately
seeking a religious theme, more that it was the place and the history
of the region that inspired what is an adventure thriller," Mosse
said.
"The history of the Catholic crusade against the Cathars is well
documented and not under dispute. At the heart of Labyrinth is a
respect for faith and what it means, although there is certainly a
criticism of intolerance and the inability of any organized religion to
allow others to follow their own morality and faith."
However, medieval historian Thomas Madden, chairman of the history
department at St. Louis University, cautions against misconceptions
about the history of the church and the Cathars.
"Catharism flourished because the secular lords either ignored the
heresy or actively promoted it," Madden said. "In the 13th century,
Pope Innocent III called a crusade against those lords.
"It is simply untrue that this crusade was a 'genocide' or that
it was even a way to destroy the cult. Instead, it was a means to
replace those lords who refused to see to the spiritual health of their
people," he said.
Madden stressed that after the crusade there were still plenty of
Cathars.
"The heresy vanished, though, under the subsequent efforts of the
Inquisition. The vast majority of Cathars, instructed by the
inquisitors, were restored to the Catholic faith."
The Templar Legacy
The search for the lost templar treasure in a little town in southern
France is the plot for Steve Berry's The Templar Legacy. The author
and lawyer from Camden County, Ga., was sure to include a writer's
note at the end of his book to help his readers distinguish between
fact and fiction. He wrote that he created the gospel of Simon for his
book and used an alternate concept of how Christ may have been
resurrected that is found in Resurrection: Myth or Reality? A
Bishop's Search for the Origins of Christianity by John Shelby Spong,
retired Episcopalian bishop of Newark, N.J.
Berry went on to say in the note: "The conflicts between the four
books of the New Testament relative to the resurrection have challenged
scholars for centuries. The fact that only one crucified skeleton has
ever been found does raise questions, as do many comments and
statements made throughout history.
"One in particular, attributed to Pope Leo X (1513-1521) caught my
attention," he said. "His statement is short, simple, and strange
for the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Indeed, it was the spark
that generated this novel. 'It has served us well, this myth of
Christ.'"
Father John Paul Echert, scripture scholar and pastor of Holy Trinity
and St. Augustine parishes in South St. Paul, Minn., clarified some of
Berry's contentions.
"The statement falsely attributed to Pope Leo X, 'It has served us
well, this myth of Christ,' was alleged long ago by an apostate
English Carmelite, John Bale, in his 16th-century satire, The Pageant
of the Popes," Father Echert said. "There is no basis for this
attribution and rarely, if ever, is any context for the statement
provided. Never has any legitimate papal text been cited to
substantiate this allegation."
Father Echert also addressed Berry's comments about the resurrection
in the gospels.
"With regards to seeming conflicts between details of the various
gospels, including the resurrection accounts, the faithful Christian
must affirm that the Bible is the word of God, and therefore free from
all error, for God cannot deceive or be the author of error."
The Jerusalem Bible, in a note to Matthew 28:10, says that "these
very divergencies of tradition are far better witnesses than any
artificial or contrived uniformity to the antiquity of the evidence and
the historical quality of all these manifestations of the risen
Christ."
When asked about causing confusion for readers, Berry said, "I would
certainly hope readers understand that The Templar Legacy is a work of
fiction, concocted out of my imagination. A story. Meant to entertain
you. Nothing more.
"But if at the same time the story stimulates the mind, causes the
reader to question, then great," Berry said. "That's what Dan
Brown did so well. He made people think - and is that so wrong?"
Christian Resources
Christians can do their own research about the groups or eras that
novels and non-fiction books spotlight - and help to catechize others
with their deeper knowledge of Church history.
"Rather than only worrying about The Da Vinci Code knock-offs, worry
about non-fiction books, too - you'll find many full of poor
information," said Sandra Miesel of Indianapolis, journalist and
co-author with Carl Olson of The Da Vinci Hoax. Miesel suggests reading
up on the Knights Templar in Peter Partner's The Murdered Magicians:
The Templars and Their Myth.
Madden recommends getting a dependable history of Catharism, The
Cathars by Malcolm Barber.
When encountering a relative, friend or coworker who has been misled
about the church by historico-religious thrillers, De-Coding Da Vinci
author Amy Welborn, from Fort Wayne, Ind., encourages Christians to see
it as an opportunity to share knowledge and faith.
"It is not a time to judge or be fearful," she said. "If someone
is really into this, don't run away or avoid conversation; invite the
person into discussion and suggest reading other books." Olson, of
Eugene, Ore., said he sees it as a spiritual battle over souls.
"Throwing out knowledge isn't the only solution. We need factual
responses but we also need true Christian responses to these souls who
are troubled by the church and are struggling with questions."
- - -
Annamarie Adkins, based in St. Paul, Minn., is a correspondent for
National Catholic Register (www.ncregister.com), a Catholic Online
Preferred Publishing Partner.
.

User: "Jim07D6"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 09:50:58 AM

"words of truth" <wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com> said:

<...>
Continuing a tradition begun by the writers of the NT.
--- Jim07D6
.

User: "George Hein"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 04:53:49 PM

"Throwing out knowledge isn't the only solution. We need factual
responses but we also need true Christian responses to these souls who
are troubled by the church and are struggling with questions."

You cannot get factual responses from the "Church" where there are no
facts. Jesus had siblings, attested to in NT. Many in early church
accepted that. The "Church" has been in denial, although some of its
best scripture experts avow it. Paul may have been married, Jesus
likewise. There is no proof either way, but it was the custom to get
kids married off young. You were not a man if you did not have a wife.
There are many traditions which may or may not be historical.
The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL
BE SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do that?
I think that these novels are good, it will make people think - at least
those who can. Maybe they will seek out knowledge for themselves.
.

User: "Gabby"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 05:55:52 PM

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:_tVyf.487$ij1.171@fe12.lga..

The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL BE
SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do that?

The Church didn't change the words. The Latin Roman Missal, the official
document of the Roman Church, says 'for many'. ICEL, the International
Commission for the English Language, translated that as 'for all'. Other
languages differ. French uses 'for many', as do other Romance Languages.
Gabby
.

User: "George Hein"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 06:15:43 PM

Gabby wrote:
Gabby wrote:

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:_tVyf.487$ij1.171@fe12.lga..

The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL BE
SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do that?

Beg to differ. In NYC area for the last few years at RC Church they use
ALL. Latin Missals that I have seen use MANY, as do Greek. However, in
the past few years I see ALL. Nowhere in the NT can I find ALL for the
Eucharist (Greek, Latin or older German and English translations). If
the RC Church did not change it, who did. What bishop has the guts
(read something else) to change it without the unelected by the people
so called bishop of Roman Kremlin (SEE, I'M PREJUDICED!).
.

User: "Gabby"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 06:49:04 PM

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:NGWyf.5515$ng3.1056@fe11.lga...

Gabby wrote:
Gabby wrote:

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:_tVyf.487$ij1.171@fe12.lga..

The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL
BE SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do
that?

The Church didn't change the words. The Latin Roman Missal, the official
document of the Roman Church, says 'for many'. ICEL, the International
Commission for the English Language, translated that as 'for all'.
Other languages differ. French uses 'for many', as do other Romance
Languages.

Gabby

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:_tVyf.487$ij1.171@fe12.lga..

The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL
BE SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do
that?

The Church didn't change the words. The Latin Roman Missal, the official
document of the Roman Church, says 'for many'. ICEL, the International
Commission for the English Language, translated that as 'for all'.
Other languages differ. French uses 'for many', as do other Romance
Languages.

Beg to differ. In NYC area for the last few years at RC Church they use
ALL.

Because that's the way it was translated from Latin into English by ICEL.
It is not a literal translation. ICEL has argued that the use of 'the many'
meant 'all'.

Latin Missals that I have seen use MANY, as do Greek. However, in the
past few years I see ALL.

The official document says 'many'.

Nowhere in the NT can I find ALL for the Eucharist (Greek, Latin or older
German and English translations). If the RC Church did not change it, who
did.

I told you. ICEL translated it that way into English.
It may change soon because they are in the process of writing a new
translation that Rome wants closer to a literal translation rather than a
'sense' translation. So things like "Dominus vobiscum" "Et ***** spiritu
tuo" would be translated "The Lord be with you." "And with your spirit"
rather than "And also with you" as it is written now in English.
Gabby
.

User: "John W. Kennedy"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 09:19:14 AM

Gabby wrote:

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:NGWyf.5515$ng3.1056@fe11.lga...

Gabby wrote:
Gabby wrote:

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:_tVyf.487$ij1.171@fe12.lga..

The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL
BE SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do
that?

The Church didn't change the words. The Latin Roman Missal, the official
document of the Roman Church, says 'for many'. ICEL, the International
Commission for the English Language, translated that as 'for all'.
Other languages differ. French uses 'for many', as do other Romance
Languages.

Gabby
"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:_tVyf.487$ij1.171@fe12.lga..

The Church recently changed the words of consecation from: WHICH SHALL
BE SHED FOR MANY to ALL. Under which authority did the RC-Church do
that?

The Church didn't change the words. The Latin Roman Missal, the official
document of the Roman Church, says 'for many'. ICEL, the International
Commission for the English Language, translated that as 'for all'.
Other languages differ. French uses 'for many', as do other Romance
Languages.

Beg to differ. In NYC area for the last few years at RC Church they use
ALL.

Because that's the way it was translated from Latin into English by ICEL.
It is not a literal translation. ICEL has argued that the use of 'the many'
meant 'all'.

Latin Missals that I have seen use MANY, as do Greek. However, in the
past few years I see ALL.

The official document says 'many'.

Nowhere in the NT can I find ALL for the Eucharist (Greek, Latin or older
German and English translations). If the RC Church did not change it, who
did.

I told you. ICEL translated it that way into English.

It may change soon because they are in the process of writing a new
translation that Rome wants closer to a literal translation rather than a
'sense' translation. So things like "Dominus vobiscum" "Et ***** spiritu
tuo" would be translated "The Lord be with you." "And with your spirit"
rather than "And also with you" as it is written now in English.

Rome's on its way to accepting the Book of Common Prayer?
(Is ICEL the same thing that used to be ICET?)
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
.

User: "Gabby"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 11:40:10 AM

"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:XV7zf.24$dd5.23@fe11.lga...

Gabby wrote:

I told you. ICEL translated it that way into English.

It may change soon because they are in the process of writing a new
translation that Rome wants closer to a literal translation rather than a
'sense' translation. So things like "Dominus vobiscum" "Et ***** spiritu
tuo" would be translated "The Lord be with you." "And with your spirit"
rather than "And also with you" as it is written now in English.

Rome's on its way to accepting the Book of Common Prayer?

The Book of Common Prayer? No. I was referring to the Roman Missal. Or
maybe you were making the point that they have a lot of prayers in common?

(Is ICEL the same thing that used to be ICET?)

I had to look up ICET. No, ICEL & ICET (defunct since 1975) are separate
entities working on totally different things.
ICET (International Consultation on English Texts) arose from Consultation
on Common Texts (CCT) and is an ecumenical group working on common English
prayers for all Christian Churches.
ICEL is the International Commission on English in the Liturgy, charged with
translating the Roman Catholic Liturgical Books & documents from Latin
(their official language) to English. There is no doubt that ICEL has used
some ICET translations, causing an uproar in certain quarters since those
translations change the meanings of certain texts.
Gabby
.

User: "John W. Kennedy"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 02:46:41 PM

Gabby wrote:

"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:XV7zf.24$dd5.23@fe11.lga...

Gabby wrote:

I told you. ICEL translated it that way into English.

It may change soon because they are in the process of writing a new
translation that Rome wants closer to a literal translation rather than a
'sense' translation. So things like "Dominus vobiscum" "Et ***** spiritu
tuo" would be translated "The Lord be with you." "And with your spirit"
rather than "And also with you" as it is written now in English.

Rome's on its way to accepting the Book of Common Prayer?

The Book of Common Prayer? No. I was referring to the Roman Missal. Or
maybe you were making the point that they have a lot of prayers in common?

Heck, the BCP had "And with thy spirit" for centuries....

(Is ICEL the same thing that used to be ICET?)

I had to look up ICET. No, ICEL & ICET (defunct since 1975) are separate
entities working on totally different things.

ICET (International Consultation on English Texts) arose from Consultation
on Common Texts (CCT) and is an ecumenical group working on common English
prayers for all Christian Churches.

ICEL is the International Commission on English in the Liturgy, charged with
translating the Roman Catholic Liturgical Books & documents from Latin
(their official language) to English. There is no doubt that ICEL has used
some ICET translations, causing an uproar in certain quarters since those
translations change the meanings of certain texts.

Same thing in Episcopalland, trust me. I'm all for modernization, and
regard the continued use of "thou" when not one person in a thousand
understands it as positively pernicious, but the ICET texts, apart from
questions of meaning, sometimes give the impression of having been
written by a ten-year-old with a short attention span.
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
.

User: "raven1"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 09:44:40 AM

On 15 Jan 2006 21:49:16 -0800, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com> wrote:

Invasion of 'Da Vinci' book clones challenges church history,
teaching
By Annamarie Adkins

<snip>
Yet another idiot who can't distinguish fiction from reality, but then
again, that's a prerequisite for believing in the Bible.
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
.

User: "Bobby D. Bryant"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 05:05:38 AM

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com> wrote:

I have books on the topic published 12 and 20 years before Brown's.
One of them even pretends to be fact rather than fiction.
A lot of people, particularly Catholics, have certainly gotten their
panties in a bunch over this for no reason.
Hmmmmm...
<conspiracytheory>
It seems to have hit a tender spot. Maybe they've got something to hide?
</conspiracytheory>
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
.

User: "John W. Kennedy"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 09:02:01 AM

Bobby D. Bryant wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com> wrote:

How about historians?
It's wrong to tell lies, and Dan Brown is a liar, no different from
Charlton Ogburn or Bart Sibrel.
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
.

User: "kathryn"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 12:55:26 PM

"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:NzOyf.31$H06.3@fe12.lga...

Bobby D. Bryant wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com>
wrote:

How about historians?

It's wrong to tell lies, and Dan Brown is a liar, no different from
Charlton Ogburn or Bart Sibrel.

Presumbly JR Tolkien, Patricia Cornwell and Dean Koontz are liars too then.
.

User: "John W. Kennedy"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 02:09:22 PM

kathryn wrote:

"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:NzOyf.31$H06.3@fe12.lga...

Bobby D. Bryant wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com>
wrote:

How about historians?

It's wrong to tell lies, and Dan Brown is a liar, no different from
Charlton Ogburn or Bart Sibrel.

Presumbly JR Tolkien, Patricia Cornwell and Dean Koontz are liars too then.

Moron.
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 09:23:01 AM

In <NzOyf.31$H06.3@fe12.lga>, "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net>
wrote:

Bobby D. Bryant wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth201@hotmail.com>
wrote:

How about historians?

It's wrong to tell lies, and Dan Brown is a liar, no different from
Charlton Ogburn or Bart Sibrel.

All fiction writers are "liars."
Duh.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Charity hospital closes for good
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3D51207C
A city on hold
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y3E55207C
If Katrina was a "judgment," god hates poor people
and churches but loves a good party...
http://www.nola.com/mardigras/
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "P.T."
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 03:20:08 PM

"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:JuqdnRm0mMfIJ1beRVn-ow@megapath.net...

All fiction writers are "liars."

Duh.

Many fictional writings, or myths, carry truthful messages.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 11:38:34 PM

In <ccdzf.113373$XC4.100728@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "P.T." <pt@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:JuqdnRm0mMfIJ1beRVn-ow@megapath.net...

All fiction writers are "liars."

Duh.

Many fictional writings, or myths, carry truthful messages.

Modern fiction writing carries the message "I have bills to pay."
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Katrina aftermath pictures
http://www.nola.com/katrinaphotos/user/
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 09:53:37 AM

Mark Bilbo writes:
All fiction writers are "liars."
******************
The problem with Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code is that there's that
statement at the front of the book that declares that all the historic
details are true. That statement is outside the text of the actual
novel, and its context appears to be aimed at being factual.
There are many religions that have died and become myth. It is
possible that science and history will eventually bury Christianity.
For the time being, though, I think that the impact of the Da Vinci
code is overrated simply because it is faith that rules religion, not
fact. I found the Da Vinci Code hard to believe not because of all
the silly little "dark" secrets, but because I simply cannot imagine
the Church really concerning itself that much with all of it.
I find almost all conspiracy theories to be ludicrous. It bothers me
only a little when I wonder what happened to Jimmy Hoffa.
Michael
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 06:43:13 PM

In <1137426817.836342.40440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Michael"
<zspider@gte.net> wrote:

Mark Bilbo writes:

All fiction writers are "liars."

******************
The problem with Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code is that there's that statement
at the front of the book that declares that all the historic details are
true. That statement is outside the text of the actual novel, and its
context appears to be aimed at being factual.

There are many religions that have died and become myth. It is possible
that science and history will eventually bury Christianity. For the time
being, though, I think that the impact of the Da Vinci code is overrated
simply because it is faith that rules religion, not fact. I found the Da
Vinci Code hard to believe not because of all the silly little "dark"
secrets, but because I simply cannot imagine the Church really concerning
itself that much with all of it.

I find almost all conspiracy theories to be ludicrous. It bothers me only
a little when I wonder what happened to Jimmy Hoffa.

I found the book mediocre and though Brown seems competent, he's far from
inspired.
I can't believe anybody is all that hyped up about that book. It's just
not really all that *good...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Charity hospital closes for good
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3D51207C
A city on hold
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y3E55207C
If Katrina was a "judgment," god hates poor people
and churches but loves a good party...
http://www.nola.com/mardigras/
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Mike Painter"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 10:48:01 PM

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
<snip>

I found the book mediocre and though Brown seems competent, he's far
from inspired.

I can't believe anybody is all that hyped up about that book. It's
just not really all that *good...

I've not read it but look at the Left Behind Series. I've not read any of
them but in glancing at one it reminded me of the poorer science fiction
stories of the 40's and 50's. (And I include a certain founder of
scientology among them.)
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 10:18:10 AM

In <5G_yf.5592$_S7.1259@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
<snip>

I found the book mediocre and though Brown seems competent, he's far
from inspired.

I can't believe anybody is all that hyped up about that book. It's just
not really all that *good...

The funny thing about it is that the church shows a definite preference
for an ignorant flock then bitches when ignorance takes its course...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
Charity hospital closes for good
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F3D51207C
A city on hold
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y3E55207C
If Katrina was a "judgment," god hates poor people
and churches but loves a good party...
http://www.nola.com/mardigras/
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.

User: "Steve Hayes"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 11:06:32 PM

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:43:13 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:

In <1137426817.836342.40440@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, "Michael"
<zspider@gte.net> wrote:

I find almost all conspiracy theories to be ludicrous. It bothers me only
a little when I wonder what happened to Jimmy Hoffa.

I found the book mediocre and though Brown seems competent, he's far from
inspired.

I can't believe anybody is all that hyped up about that book. It's just
not really all that *good...

That's my take on it too.
But my son (who has a degree in fine arts) worksd in a book shop, and they see
the punters comeing in and looking at the art books and going "Oooh! Ah!" over
reproductions of Leonardo's "The last supper"; exmailing "There's the dagger",
and taking this as proof that it's all true.
It's the same sort of people who really do believe that there is a book called
the "Necronomicon" as described in the works of H.P. Lovecraft, locked away in
a secret vault at the Miskatonic University.
I'd never heard of H.P. Lovecraft until a professor of Religious Studies at
the University of Calgary informed me that the Chthulhu mythos actually had a
cult following of people who believed it was all true, and it was being
studied as a New Religious Movement (NRM).
I tok a couple of books of Lovecraft's short stories out of the library to see
what it was all about. Some were not bad, others were drek.
Long before I'd ever heard of HP Lovecraft, I bought a book of short stories,
by Clark Ashton Smith and others, read half the first one, and tossed it
asiode. It was absolute crap, people trying to evoke a spurious atmosphere of
horro by using words like "eldritch" in every sentence. After reading
Lopvecraft's stories I went back to it, and managed to make it through to the
end. Perhaps one become innured to it after a while.
But the same kind of people who really believe in the Necronomicon are the
one's who don't care how mediocre a book is, if they buy the conspiracy
theories that its based on, and really believe that the stuff in "The da Vinci
code" is true.
And there's always been a market for books that speak of dark horrors within
the Roman Catholic Church... try Maturin's "Melmoth the wanderer". I read that
because I once lived in the town of Melmoth, and was drawn by the title, but
it's HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and Dan Brown all rolled into one.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/stevesig.htm
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
.

User: "Don Tuite"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 12:06:24 AM

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:06:32 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote:

I tok a couple of books of Lovecraft's short stories out of the library to see
what it was all about. Some were not bad, others were drek.

Lovecraft can be very silly. FWIW, I think he is at the top of his
form in _Charles Dexter Ward_. The genre works best when it leaves
the most to the reader's imagination.
Don (Refusing to make the obvious observation about NRMs)
.

User: "Brian E. Clark"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	16 Jan 2006 12:20:01 PM

In article <1137426817.836342.40440
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, Michael said...

The problem with Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code is that there's that
statement at the front of the book that declares that all the historic
details are true. That statement is outside the text of the actual
novel, and its context appears to be aimed at being factual.

In a preface to _The Lord of the Rings_, J.R.R. Tolkien wrote
that his Middle Earth stories were derived from translations of
the _Red Book of Westmarch_, which was later described as "the
memoirs of Bilbo and Frodo of the Shire, supplemented by the
accounts of their friends and the learning of the
Wise...together with extracts from Books of Lore translated by
Bilbo in Rivendell."
Readers who possess more intelligence than a wine cork have
learned to expect such faux claims of authenticity from fiction
writers -- and from their publicists.
--
-----------
Brian E. Clark
.

User: "Michael"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 06:18:52 PM

Brian Clark wrote:
Readers who possess more intelligence than a wine cork have
learned to expect such faux claims of authenticity from fiction
writers -- and from their publicists.
**************
I smiled when I read the claim of authenticity. Nevertheless I
still maintain that the claim, standing outside the obvious fiction
text as it is, and worded thus, is easy to interpret as intended
as a nonfictional statement. It's best not to discount the remark
as inconsequential. The factual claim is the real heart of the
controversy. Without it, it would have been much easier to
shrug it off as the obvious fiction it is.
Michael, the intellectual superior of a wine cork
.

User: "Francis A. Miniter"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 08:54:24 PM

Michael wrote:

Brian Clark wrote:

Readers who possess more intelligence than a wine cork have
learned to expect such faux claims of authenticity from fiction
writers -- and from their publicists.

**************
I smiled when I read the claim of authenticity. Nevertheless I
still maintain that the claim, standing outside the obvious fiction
text as it is, and worded thus, is easy to interpret as intended
as a nonfictional statement. It's best not to discount the remark
as inconsequential. The factual claim is the real heart of the
controversy. Without it, it would have been much easier to
shrug it off as the obvious fiction it is.

Michael, the intellectual superior of a wine cork

Good point. In another post, Liz quotes the statement: "All descriptions of
artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals in this novel is accurate."
That is the kind of statement that writers of historical fiction can and do
make. For instance, P. C. Doherty, author of "The Death of a King", a novel
about Edward II of England, refers to several documents, which he represents in
an Epilogue to exist and to be accurately described therein and about which he
wove the fictional story. But he does claim that the description of the
documents is accurate. This is precisely the claim made by Brown and that is
the source of the problem.
Historical fiction has a special problem and a special burden. When do you deal
in history and when do you deal in fact, and what, if any, representation do you
make about the facts to your readership? An example from one end of the scale:
Clavell, Shogun. Clavell makes no representations of fact and, if you just
read the book, it is a good yarn. But if you start to investigate, you learn
that his Lord Torunaga is an alias for the real Lord Tokugawa and that the
improbable Englishman actually existed and became a retainer to Lord Tokugawa.
Indeed, you learn that the large political facts are mostly all true and the
fiction is confined to the personal level, a technique very often used by
writers of historical fiction.
P. C. Doherty also keeps close to the large political fact situation and advises
the reader (in epilogues or postscripts) of the historical basis that allows him
to fictionalize a possible account of unknown or unrecorded events.
Another variant is Tim O'Brien, "How to Tell a True War Story" in his book "The
Things They Carried". While assuring the reader repeatedly that it is all true,
he weaves a plausible fiction. But that is all done within the context of the
text, and not outside of it, as it is with Brown. O'Brien's "true" lies in the
feeling and sense that you get from the fictional portrayal of the war (Vietnam,
that is).
Brown is on the other end of the scale. He makes this representation about the
factual accuracy of documents and rituals outside the text, but then, unlike
Doherty, he misrepresents the historically referenced texts and goes on from
there to fictionalize the big political and historical events, not just the
personal story events. It is this dishonesty to the historical fiction genre
that has raised the controversy.
Nor does his representation stand in the context of an outer text, such as the
Prologue to Eco's "The Name of the Rose", wherein the outer narrator tells a
story about how he found, lost and reconstituted the text that forms the inner
story - and thereby gives the reader a hermeneutic for interpreting the inner
story. Brown's representation is more like that of Doherty's. It stands alone.
It is on its face intended to be relied upon. It is not couched in a context
to make it unreliable.
Now, it should be granted that Brown's representation does not go to the textual
events that he puts forth as an alternative history. That one can safely say
that even he deems that fiction. It only goes to "artwork, architecture,
documents, and secret rituals". But even as to these limited areas, he makes
significant misrepresentations. And it is in the area of inferences from
falsely described real things (the documents in the Nag Hammadi collection, for
instance) that the problem arises. Since the documents are falsely described by
him, the inferences from them are less reliable than those, say, of Doherty, if
you know that the documents are falsely described. But the average reader is
not familiar with the Gnostic writings in the Nag Hammadi documents and is not
in a position to realize that he or she is being had.
So what we have here is not an unreliable narrator, but an unreliable author.
Francis A. Miniter
.

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	17 Jan 2006 10:14:51 PM

Exactly. It is "Historical Fiction" that is all.
Furthermore the notion is based on an erroneous translation of medeival
French.
"holy blood."
.

User: "John W. Kennedy"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	18 Jan 2006 11:47:21 AM

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:

Furthermore the notion is based on an erroneous translation of medeival
French.

"holy blood."

In the first place, you've got it wrong; the claim is that "san graal"
is a mistake for "sang real", "royal blood". In the second place, it's
provably false; the Grail makes its first appearances as "un graal", "a
dish". It only becomes "le san graal" much later.
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
.

User: "Inger E.Johansson inger"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	18 Jan 2006 04:51:53 PM

"John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:Qavzf.29$5W6.19@fe12.lga...

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:

Furthermore the notion is based on an erroneous translation of medeival
French.

"holy blood."

You are right John. The Grail is a dish and some other items go with it.
Inger E

"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"

User: "Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	18 Jan 2006 08:43:05 PM

John W. Kennedy wrote:

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:

Furthermore the notion is based on an erroneous translation of medeival
French.

"holy blood."

i did not get anything wrong my friend you merely clarified what i
said.
but more to the point the sang real is a myth.
.

User: "John W. Kennedy"
Title: Re: Invasion Of 'Da Vinci' Book Clones Challenges Church History	19 Jan 2006 10:02:43 AM

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:

John W. Kennedy wrote:

Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun] wrote:

Furthermore the notion is based on an erroneous translation of medeival
French.

"holy blood."

i did not get anything wrong my friend you merely clarified what i
said.

Your very words "holy blood" are quoted above, and it remains a fact
that no-one (except you), at any time, has ever claimed that the
original French was, or was meant to be, or was misinterpreted as being,
"san sang".

but more to the point the sang real is a myth.

Yes indeed, there is a late-20th-century myth, a demonstrably false one,
to the effect that the words "san graal" were an error for "sang real".
However, this was the result, not of an "erroneous translation", but of
an egregious blunder by conspiracy-mongers who didn't bother to check
their facts. And even if it had been true, it /still/ wouldn't involve a
"translation" of any kind, since there is no "translation" in going from
Old French to Old French.
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
.

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Re: OT: IGNORE my da Vinci's "The Last Supper" post
Passion vs Da Vinci Code
The Da Vinci Code and its discontents
OT: Leonardo da Vinci
Re: Da Vinci and the Shroud of Turin
Da Vinci Code
The Da Vinci Code Cult
Subject: Brown stole idea for Da Vinci Code, claim authors

The Da Vinci Code: Just A Harmless Fiction?
Da Vinci Code: The Protocols Of Zion For 21st Century
Vatican calls for Da Vinci Code Boycott
The Da Vinci Protocols: Why Jews Should Worry About Dan Brown's Success
Da Vinci Code
Critics Crucify Da Vinci Code In Cannes
DA VINCI CODE TRUMPED?

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