You sound like you want it to become a quagmire- whatever that word
means. Before you become a cheerleader for the enemy, remember that
there are decent young men over there who are risking their lives to
keep all of us safe. Regardless of whether you agree with the war,
try not to sound so cheerful at every setback.

Keeping us safe from what?

There were WMD's (whatever they were.) There were no ties to 911.
There were hundreds of thousands dead because of the embargo's.
There are now an additional 100,000 dead because of the war and while there
are many young men over there, many of them are turning out to be not so
decent.

And they are dying.
And what that war is doing and will do to a lot of them will reflect on them
for the rest of their lives.

Godfrey wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 02:04:01 -0500, wbarwell
<wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:

Fred Stone wrote:

Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns959AB5DF04DAAaskifyouwantit@216.77.188.18:

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:UBujd.39521$QJ3.32748@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/07/international/middleeast/07cnd-

iraq.h

tml?ex=1257570000&en=122d04221bc94bdd&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo

"The wave of attacks came a day after insurgents launched coordinated
bomb and mortar attacks in Samarra and the surrounding area, killing
at least 30 people, many of them Iraqi police officers. Those strikes
demonstrated that a major American-led offensive last month in
Samarra, a "no-go" zone for the Americans during much of the summer,
had failed to rid the city of insurgents or secure key parts of town.
" "The precarious situation in Samarra, coupled with the other
assaults over the weekend, raised questions about the goals and
effectiveness of the planned American-led assault on Falluja. "

"But the slippage of Samarra back toward chaos raises doubts about
whether Iraqi security forces and politicians can properly maintain
order in Falluja should an American-led offensive kill or drive out
most of the guerrillas there. "

So. Is it a quagmire yet?

Nope.

So when does it become the Bush Tar Baby War quagmire?
1 year? 2? 4? 2000 America deaths? 5000? 10000?
When teh no-go zones encompass 10% of Iraq? 20%? 50%?
When we are leaving with Iraqis hanging off the helicopter landing
gear ala Vietnam?

Be honest Fred. For once in your life.

You sound like you want it to become a quagmire- whatever that word
means.

No, I don't. But it is one. We can't leave.
And I don't think we can win.
If you want to know why look at Algeria.
1st against the French. Then against the Islamists.
It took a decade to grind them down and only because
the Algerian army lead that fight and they knew
who their enemies were and were as bad as the
Islamists when it came to finding them and killing them.

We simply don't have the numbers nor the will
do act like that. After Russians were chased
out of Afghanistan the newly energized radicals
spread out and started a reign of terror it took
a decade to get somewhat under control.

Iraq will start another generation of new
terrorists similarly.
They are now there getting hands on training.
There are hundreds of tons of missing weapons
and explosives. We armed them too.

And when does it become a quagmire? I pose the
same to you.

2 years? 3? 5? How many dead? 2,000? 5,000?
The news sources tell us that more and more parts of Iraq
are now no go zones. We can only move en masse, quickly,
and if we are willing to take daily casualties. And it gets worse day by
day, even cities we have supposedly 'pacified'.

Than son, is a quagmire. There was hope earlier that we could work wit
Iraqis and get services like oil lines, electricity and water fixed.
It isn't working and less and less people are willing to work
since the no go zones are expanding and they become targets for
assassination.

That is a quagmire. Its not going to get better whe we take Faluja.
We will, we will go back to our bases, the resurrectionists move slowly
back in and plant new bombs.

We train policemen, who don't do anything, and they are shot
through and through with 5th columnists.

That's a quagmire.

We are finding out, Somalia was not a fluke, Bush stuck Clinton
with that and Clinton was smart enough not to make it a big
deal and left.

Bush. Was not smart.

Before you become a cheerleader for the enemy,

***** YOU! ***** YOU! ***** YOU!

I point out it is not working as planned.
And then I am "cheerleading for the enemy"?!

***** you. I am tired of you assholes that talk all
obvious criticism and then start saying I am for
the "enemuy?

***** you up the ***** with a poker heated up in the deepest
and hottest pits of hell.

*****!

This sort of military problem has a long history and it never works
unless you are willing to trade 100 dead hostages for one dead
soldier ala Hitler or the Algerian army.
Unless you are willing to level entire villages and torture
12 men to get one guilty man. Like Syria Assad.
Remeber the village of Hamas, 10,000 dead?
After 50 years thery are still fighting Islamicists in
the Phillipines. From HUKs to al Qaeda the battle still goes on.
The Taliban is still killing people in Afghanistand as are the warlords.
Stalin had no qualms about decimating entire areas of Russia.
That's what it takes to make sure you have no quagmires.

This is the way these things work and we have a century
of hard fought little insurgencies to prove it.

Anybody who thinks we are going to beat the Iraqis this year,
or with an invasion of Faluja, or that the no go zones will cease growing
anytime real soon is a fantastist.

remember that

there are decent young men over there who are risking their lives to
keep all of us safe. Regardless of whether you agree with the war,
try not to sound so cheerful at every setback.

They aren't keeping US safe.
We were never in danger of Iraq, or Hussein, or Bin Laden in Iraq.
We most certainly are now and will be for a decade.

Waving the flag for Our Brave Boys over There while initmating I support
and enemy because I happen to have a sense of history and reality about
these things is insufferable, you bloviating, posturing *****.
***** you I am so tired of that ***** from all you Bush sucking bastards.

We sent money arms and training to the bastards of El Salvador
and in the end, the leftist guerillas beat us and them and the
El Salvadoran government had to sue for peace.
Luckily the El Salvadorans were not the murderous veangence
minded fanatics Bin Laden and the Islamicists are.

In Columbia, in the 80's the guerillas and the government signed
a peace treaty where the leftists there could run for office
by the ballot rather than the bullet. The government let the gurerillas
expose themselves and went on a mass murder spree that a year later
left 3,000 ex-guerillas dead.
The guerillas went back to the jungles and the right wing death squads
took over much of the rest of Columbia.
20 years later the war drags on. Columbia is a basket case.
A 40 year long quagmire. Think Iraq will be over next year?

You don't seem to know much recent history.
And don't seem to realize quagmires happen.
We are in one now its just a matter of how bad will it get.

With them, we cannot conclude a peace ala El Salvador.
Or even Guatemala where the murderous Rios Montt
was ousted and that war ground to a halt because you just
can't kill all the Mayan Indians in Guatemala.

And we can't be as cruel and genocidal as in Peru
where the Shining Star guerillas failed because they
didn't have hundreds of tons of stolen weapons and
explosives as per Iraq, or the numbers, as in Iraq.
The government had no qualms about killing dozens
to get one guerrilla. Of burning down a village to
keep the guerrillas for stealing food at gun point from
those villagers.

In Iraq, it is going to be far different.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 08:15:43 GMT, Godfrey <No@Email.Provided> wrote:

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 02:04:01 -0500, wbarwell
<wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:

Fred Stone wrote:

Doc Smartass <gekiskivviesdo@astroboyskivviesmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns959AB5DF04DAAaskifyouwantit@216.77.188.18:

"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:UBujd.39521$QJ3.32748@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/07/international/middleeast/07cnd-

iraq.h

tml?ex=1257570000&en=122d04221bc94bdd&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo

"The wave of attacks came a day after insurgents launched coordinated
bomb and mortar attacks in Samarra and the surrounding area, killing
at least 30 people, many of them Iraqi police officers. Those strikes
demonstrated that a major American-led offensive last month in
Samarra, a "no-go" zone for the Americans during much of the summer,
had failed to rid the city of insurgents or secure key parts of town.
" "The precarious situation in Samarra, coupled with the other
assaults over the weekend, raised questions about the goals and
effectiveness of the planned American-led assault on Falluja. "

"But the slippage of Samarra back toward chaos raises doubts about
whether Iraqi security forces and politicians can properly maintain
order in Falluja should an American-led offensive kill or drive out
most of the guerrillas there. "

So. Is it a quagmire yet?

Nope.

So when does it become the Bush Tar Baby War quagmire?
1 year? 2? 4? 2000 America deaths? 5000? 10000?
When teh no-go zones encompass 10% of Iraq? 20%? 50%?
When we are leaving with Iraqis hanging off the helicopter landing
gear ala Vietnam?

Be honest Fred. For once in your life.

You sound like you want it to become a quagmire- whatever that word

Nobody wants that, Bushite liar.

means. Before you become a cheerleader for the enemy, remember that

Nobody is doing that, Bushite liar.

there are decent young men over there who are risking their lives to
keep all of us safe. Regardless of whether you agree with the war,
try not to sound so cheerful at every setback.

The Bush cheerleader imagines they "are there to keep us safe".
They're not.

They're in somebody else's country, who doesn't want them there,
slaughtering people who resist them.

The war is illegal. Your hero lied to the country and the world to
justify the unjustified.

The rest of the world saw through it.

You, personally, endorsed the lies, slaughter, torture etc.