| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Michelle Malkin" |
| Date: |
16 Sep 2004 07:45:20 PM |
| Object: |
Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1305360,00.html
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
BAAWA Knight & EAC Bible thumper thumper
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
17 Sep 2004 01:20:46 AM |
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In article <q_adnVD_cesArtfcRVn-jw@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1305360,00.html
The sad thing is that this is what everyone was telling Bush a year
and a half ago. But no, Dubya had to listen to the Neocons.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
-The ability to change one's mind, ideas, and opinions when confronted with
new facts is the sign of the rational and intelligent. The inability to do
so is the hallmark of the dimwitted and the fanatic. This applies not only
to science and philosophy, but also to politics.-
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
17 Sep 2004 05:19:52 PM |
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
I HAVE YO-YO MA TICKETS AND YOU DO NOT!
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 12:27:19 AM |
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 12:42:09 AM |
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wrote in message news:<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
You erroneously assume I support the Iraqi war. I do not. So, your
advice (helpful as it may be) I must decline.
Imagine my death in other ways, stoney.
.
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| User: "Peacenik" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 06:14:27 PM |
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"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7614cd74.0409182142.eefedb5@posting.google.com...
stoney@the.net wrote in message
news:<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
You erroneously assume I support the Iraqi war. I do not. So, your
advice (helpful as it may be) I must decline.
I was under the impression that you were a Bush supporter.
--
Peacenik
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 09:28:37 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:14:27 GMT, "Peacenik"
<cris999kity@com999cast.revovenines.net> thought hard and said:
"Daniel Kolle" <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7614cd74.0409182142.eefedb5@posting.google.com...
stoney@the.net wrote in message
news:<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
You erroneously assume I support the Iraqi war. I do not. So, your
advice (helpful as it may be) I must decline.
I was under the impression that you were a Bush supporter.
You thought wrong.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 08:15:58 PM |
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On 18 Sep 2004 22:42:09 -0700, (Daniel Kolle)
wrote:
stoney@the.net wrote in message news:<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle < >
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
You erroneously assume I support the Iraqi war.
Not at all. I didn't say anything about whether you did support, or
not, current military actions. I was working off your casualty
comment.
I was applying your attitude back on yourself.
I do not. So, your
advice (helpful as it may be) I must decline.
Imagine my death in other ways, stoney.
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
18 Sep 2004 07:56:33 PM |
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 PM |
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
I HAVE YO-YO MA TICKETS AND YOU DO NOT!
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 09:35:35 AM |
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On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to threaten its
neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there being a
serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug off not
finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings going on? Why
isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy and
be convinced the draft is necessary.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 10:06:50 AM |
|
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:MdKdnU-V85ord9PcRVn-gg@megapath.net:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel
Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place
under THIS administration. Right now.
All sponsored by Democrats. The Republicans keep saying how they don't
want it, don't need it, won't use it.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved
their flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a
country that not only did *not attack us but has been found to have
had *no real capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to
threaten its neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there
being a serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug
off not finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings
going on? Why isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the
election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy
and be convinced the draft is necessary.
And back to the Usual Tale Of Woe.
Insert $1.00 to play again.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
.
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| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
21 Sep 2004 11:34:50 AM |
|
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<Xns956A71111757Bfstone69@207.69.189.196>...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:MdKdnU-V85ord9PcRVn-gg@megapath.net:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel
Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>:
snipage
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy
and be convinced the draft is necessary.
And back to the Usual Tale Of Woe.
Insert $1.00 to play again.
Want to hear a tale of woe:
George H.W. Bush and Brent Scowcroft,
A World Transformed (1998), pp. 489-90
Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground
war into an occupation of Iraq, would have
violated our guideline about not changing
objectives in midstream, engaging in Ômission
creep,' and would have incurred incalculable
human and political costs. Apprehending him
was probably impossible. We had been unable
to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately.
We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and,
in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly
have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger
and other allies pulling out as well. Under
those circumstances, there was no viable "exit
strategy" we could see, violating another of
our principles. Furthermore, we had been
self-consciously trying to set a pattern for
handling aggression in the post-Cold War world.
Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally
exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would
have destroyed the precedent of international
response to aggression that we hoped to establish.
Had we gone the invasion route, the United
States could conceivably still be an occupying
power in a bitterly hostile land. It would
have been a dramatically different--and perhaps
barren--outcome." ---
Larry
.
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| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 11:50:50 PM |
|
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:<MdKdnU-V85ord9PcRVn-gg@megapath.net>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to threaten its
neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there being a
serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug off not
finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings going on? Why
isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy and
be convinced the draft is necessary.
One thing this administration has learned,
you can get away with anything if you mention 9/11.
Besides, Jr. is not going to run in 2008, and neither
is Cheney. It is obvious that the US does not have
enough people in the regular military
to fight in Iraq and Afganistan. If Jr
is re-elected, it will be tacit support
for the war in Iraq. That will leave little
choice but to reinstate the draft.
Unfortunatley, an abrubt pull out of
Iraq might result in a blood bath,
so Kerry will have little choice but
keep our boys there for quite some time.
This of coarse blurs the distiction between
Kerry and Jr., but I for one remeber who got
us in this mess in the first place, and I will
vote him out.
Larry
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
21 Sep 2004 06:00:48 PM |
|
|
On 20 Sep 2004 21:50:50 -0700, (Lawrence
Seib) wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:<MdKdnU-V85ord9PcRVn-gg@megapath.net>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to threaten its
neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there being a
serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug off not
finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings going on? Why
isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy and
be convinced the draft is necessary.
One thing this administration has learned,
you can get away with anything if you mention 9/11.
Besides, Jr. is not going to run in 2008, and neither
is Cheney.
The Republicans are trying to eliminate the 22nd Amendment. Such an
effort was legislated and passed in 2002.
It is obvious that the US does not have
enough people in the regular military
to fight in Iraq and Afganistan. If Jr
is re-elected, it will be tacit support
for the war in Iraq. That will leave little
choice but to reinstate the draft.
Unfortunatley, an abrubt pull out of
Iraq might result in a blood bath,
so Kerry will have little choice but
keep our boys there for quite some time.
Stay/go there's still going to be a bloodbath.
This of coarse blurs the distiction between
Kerry and Jr., but I for one remeber who got
us in this mess in the first place, and I will
vote him out.
Larry
.
|
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| User: "Lawrence Seib" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
01 Oct 2004 09:52:07 AM |
|
|
wrote in message news:<dgc1l09tqfnuqr72kfr0di0ea8n6grkj0k@4ax.com>...
On 20 Sep 2004 21:50:50 -0700, (Lawrence
Seib) wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:<MdKdnU-V85ord9PcRVn-gg@megapath.net>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to threaten its
neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there being a
serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug off not
finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings going on? Why
isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy and
be convinced the draft is necessary.
One thing this administration has learned,
you can get away with anything if you mention 9/11.
Besides, Jr. is not going to run in 2008, and neither
is Cheney.
The Republicans are trying to eliminate the 22nd Amendment. Such an
effort was legislated and passed in 2002.
WOW, There is no limit to their shameless self
promotion.
It is obvious that the US does not have
enough people in the regular military
to fight in Iraq and Afganistan. If Jr
is re-elected, it will be tacit support
for the war in Iraq. That will leave little
choice but to reinstate the draft.
Unfortunatley, an abrubt pull out of
Iraq might result in a blood bath,
so Kerry will have little choice but
keep our boys there for quite some time.
Stay/go there's still going to be a bloodbath.
Stoney, I was against this war from the beginning.
However it seemed to me that civil war and a massacre
of the civilians would be the result if we pulled out
too quickly. Your statement however seems to be true,
it appears that we can do little to stabilize Iraq.
Larry
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
01 Oct 2004 05:44:48 PM |
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On 1 Oct 2004 07:52:07 -0700, (Lawrence Seib)
wrote:
stoney@the.net wrote in message news:<dgc1l09tqfnuqr72kfr0di0ea8n6grkj0k@4ax.com>...
On 20 Sep 2004 21:50:50 -0700, (Lawrence
Seib) wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message news:<MdKdnU-V85ord9PcRVn-gg@megapath.net>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to threaten its
neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there being a
serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug off not
finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings going on? Why
isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy and
be convinced the draft is necessary.
One thing this administration has learned,
you can get away with anything if you mention 9/11.
Besides, Jr. is not going to run in 2008, and neither
is Cheney.
The Republicans are trying to eliminate the 22nd Amendment. Such an
effort was legislated and passed in 2002.
WOW, There is no limit to their shameless self
promotion.
No. However, it turns out I was in error-the legislation was
presented by a democrat (democrat=member of the republican auxillary)
It is obvious that the US does not have
enough people in the regular military
to fight in Iraq and Afganistan. If Jr
is re-elected, it will be tacit support
for the war in Iraq. That will leave little
choice but to reinstate the draft.
Unfortunatley, an abrubt pull out of
Iraq might result in a blood bath,
so Kerry will have little choice but
keep our boys there for quite some time.
Stay/go there's still going to be a bloodbath.
Stoney, I was against this war from the beginning.
I was against it from the moment Shrub opened his mouth (previous
fall) and said he was going to invade no matter what Saddam did.
However it seemed to me that civil war and a massacre
of the civilians would be the result if we pulled out
too quickly.
And the massacre (perhaps less) would be result if we didn't.
Your statement however seems to be true,
it appears that we can do little to stabilize Iraq.
The induced instability is terminal. Every step the Shrub
misadministration did was to maximize instability and they were wildly
successful.
"Hail Haliburton, Brown and Root..."
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 05:58:44 PM |
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On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:35:35 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky,
Nice ad-hominem there. Hell, why not call me Tex or JR?
the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
Do you have verifiable sources or are you just talking out of your
*****?
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all.
The public is not exactly cheering on the war in Iraq right now, are
they? A quick google search shows that little more than 3/5 of
Americans do not support the war--although I must admit the poll was
taken almost four months ago. Still, the results speak for themselves.
Contrary to what Democrats believe, the American people are
not mindless, xenophobic, jingostic morons. The war in Iraq has lost a
lot of it popularity and a draft will not stand. Maybe someone should
tell Congressmen Rangel and Hollings that.
<snip>
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
.
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 12:47:37 PM |
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On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:35:35 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this little
war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place under
THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved their
flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a country that
not only did *not attack us but has been found to have had *no real
capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to threaten its
neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there being a
serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug off not
finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings going on? Why
isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy and
be convinced the draft is necessary.
This is public is the easiest audience to hypnotize, ever.
All you have to do is say "Patriotism . . . PAtriotism . . . PATRIOTISM" and
they'll follow you around, clucking like chickens until you tell them to stop.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 02:08:23 PM |
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Apostate <Apostate.invalid@yeehaw.org> wrote in
news:8q5uk0lik9tams0ke7kjn4776lrlc67kc2@4ax.com:
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:35:35 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500 in episode
<5tgrk0dgikcnkg0i8f2k1d3lin28iqjgag@4ax.com> we saw our hero Daniel
Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle
<DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too
many people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are
still alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for
this little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
Sparky, the preparations to re-instate the draft are taking place
under THIS administration. Right now.
And don't tell me the public won't stand for it. The public waved
their flags and cheered the administration on when we attacked a
country that not only did *not attack us but has been found to have
had *no real capacity to threaten us at all. Not even the capacity to
threaten its neighbors in the region.
Where's the scandal over us having been sold a war based on there
being a serious threat to *us only to have the administration shrug
off not finding any threat? Why aren't there impeachment hearings
going on? Why isn't Bush going down to utter, certain defeat in the
election?
Don't tell me this public can't be whipped into a "patriotic" frenzy
and be convinced the draft is necessary.
This is public is the easiest audience to hypnotize, ever.
All you have to do is say "Patriotism . . . PAtriotism . . .
PATRIOTISM" and they'll follow you around, clucking like chickens
until you tell them to stop.
That pales in effectiveness compared to "It's all a neo-con plot".
"Rummy and condi and rove, oh my."
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 11:30:41 PM |
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On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
LOL - you are naive.
.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 11:32:30 AM |
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(Kate ) wrote in message news:<414e5610.15874515@news-west.newscene.com>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
LOL - you are naive.
It was not Bush who called for the draft to be reinstated. Does Rep.
Charles Rangel ring a bell to you?
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 12:57:28 PM |
|
|
(Daniel Kolle) wrote in
news:7614cd74.0409200832.5db275eb@posting.google.com:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) wrote in message
news:<414e5610.15874515@news-west.newscene.com>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500, Daniel Kolle < >
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle
< > wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a
decade or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too
many people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are
still alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for
this little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
LOL - you are naive.
It was not Bush who called for the draft to be reinstated. Does Rep.
Charles Rangel ring a bell to you?
He's in on the neo-con plot!
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
.
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| User: "Kate " |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 11:58:08 AM |
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On 20 Sep 2004 09:32:30 -0700, (Daniel Kolle)
wrote:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) wrote in message news:<414e5610.15874515@news-west.newscene.com>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500, Daniel Kolle < >
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle < >
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
LOL - you are naive.
It was not Bush who called for the draft to be reinstated. Does Rep.
Charles Rangel ring a bell to you?
Charles Rangel wanted the draft so the people would really feel the
impact of the war. The reality is that we can't support this war
without either asking other countries for help or starting a draft.
Bush won't ask for help because he doesn't believe in diplomacy and
has zero ability to do it any way.
Bush is already doing a backdoor draft. (Not allowing servicemen to go
home when their enlistment runs out) He pretends that he is
supporting the war with sign ups, but it isn't happening.
If Bush lies about that (as about many other things), how can you
trust him to not put in the draft when he runs out of back door
draftees? (which is the most hideous thing to do to service men I can
imagine and something no other president has ever done).
.
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| User: "Apostate" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 01:46:00 PM |
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On 20 Sep 2004 09:32:30 -0700, (Daniel Kolle) wrote:
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) wrote in message news:<414e5610.15874515@news-west.newscene.com>...
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500, Daniel Kolle < >
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle < >
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
LOL - you are naive.
It was not Bush who called for the draft to be reinstated. Does Rep.
Charles Rangel ring a bell to you?
Charley Drug-War Rangel?
I'd put no demagoguery past him.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
20 Sep 2004 06:32:20 PM |
|
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On 19 Sep 2004 23:30:41 -0500, (Kate ) wrote:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:52:43 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> thought hard and said:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
The reinstatement of the draft will not stand. It pissed far too many
people off during the Vietnam era and many of those people are still
alive. The fact that *Bush considering reinstating a draft for this
little war of his speaks volumes.
*Oh, wait. It is not Bush who wants the draft reinstated.
LOL - you are naive.
Very much so. Soldiers are also not being released after their
contracts are up, either.
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
19 Sep 2004 08:13:48 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:56:33 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:27:19 -0700 in episode
<t46qk015jf5kh8oevhtejp91290lkutn9p@4ax.com> we saw our hero
stoney@the.net:
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
Cool. So join up and be one of the 55K.
He'll have his chance. McCain--among many--expects us to be there a decade
or more...
It should be noted I haven't been paying attention to the military
circus sans ringmaster.
/musing
I wonder if the damage would be lessened by pulling out.
.
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| User: "Apostate" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
17 Sep 2004 06:23:15 PM |
|
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:19:52 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> thought hard and said:
<snip>
Until we have 55,000 more causalities in Iraq, then you can say
something.
There are already well more than 55,000 "causalities."
But you meant stiffs (and only counting those who left the U.S. alive.)
What about downstream consequences, including worldwide, as opposed to those
local to Iraq? Do they count at all in the calculus of how bad the thing is?
I don't have the accounting skills to confirm or deny the suggested comparison,
but, as (I hate to mention it) I thought would be the case from the outset, the
consequences of "winning" the battle to change the chief of state in Iraq continue
to mount daily, the "good" ones being overwhelmingly abstract in character, (and
subject to debate, as well,) and the bad, overwhelmingly very concrete indeed.
It's bloody unlikely, afaict, that the generation next to be born will ever live down
the destructive consequences of shrub's two-seconds attention span and simplistic
outlook, coupled with the cavalier eggs-for-omelettes attitudes of his lieutenants
(and commanding officers.)
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
.
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| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
17 Sep 2004 09:23:17 PM |
|
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1305360,00.html
Comment
Far graver than Vietnam
Most senior US military officers now believe the war on Iraq has
turned into a disaster on an unprecedented scale
Sidney Blumenthal
Thursday September 16, 2004
The Guardian
'Bring them on!" President Bush challenged the early Iraqi insurgency
in July of last year. Since then, 812 American soldiers have been
killed and 6,290 wounded, according to the Pentagon. Almost every day,
in campaign speeches, Bush speaks with bravado about how he is
"winning" in Iraq. "Our strategy is succeeding," he boasted to the
National Guard convention on Tuesday.
But, according to the US military's leading strategists and prominent
retired generals, Bush's war is already lost. Retired general William
Odom, former head of the National Security Agency, told me: "Bush
hasn't found the WMD. Al-Qaida, it's worse, he's lost on that front.
That he's going to achieve a democracy there? That goal is lost, too.
It's lost." He adds: "Right now, the course we're on, we're achieving
Bin Laden's ends."
Retired general Joseph Hoare, the former marine commandant and head of
US Central Command, told me: "The idea that this is going to go the
way these guys planned is ludicrous. There are no good options. We're
conducting a campaign as though it were being conducted in Iowa, no
sense of the realities on the ground. It's so unrealistic for anyone
who knows that part of the world. The priorities are just all wrong."
Jeffrey Record, professor of strategy at the Air War College, said: "I
see no ray of light on the horizon at all. The worst case has become
true. There's no analogy whatsoever between the situation in Iraq and
the advantages we had after the second world war in Germany and
Japan."
W Andrew Terrill, professor at the Army War College's strategic
studies institute - and the top expert on Iraq there - said: "I don't
think that you can kill the insurgency". According to Terrill, the
anti-US insurgency, centred in the Sunni triangle, and holding several
cities and towns - including Fallujah - is expanding and becoming more
capable as a consequence of US policy.
"We have a growing, maturing insurgency group," he told me. "We see
larger and more coordinated military attacks. They are getting better
and they can self-regenerate. The idea there are x number of
insurgents, and that when they're all dead we can get out is wrong.
The insurgency has shown an ability to regenerate itself because there
are people willing to fill the ranks of those who are killed. The
political culture is more hostile to the US presence. The longer we
stay, the more they are confirmed in that view."
After the killing of four US contractors in Fallujah, the marines
besieged the city for three weeks in April - the watershed event for
the insurgency. "I think the president ordered the attack on
Fallujah," said General Hoare. "I asked a three-star marine general
who gave the order to go to Fallujah and he wouldn't tell me. I came
to the conclusion that the order came directly from the White House."
Then, just as suddenly, the order was rescinded, and Islamist radicals
gained control, using the city as a base.
"If you are a Muslim and the community is under occupation by a
non-Islamic power it becomes a religious requirement to resist that
occupation," Terrill explained. "Most Iraqis consider us occupiers,
not liberators." He describes the religious imagery common now in
Fallujah and the Sunni triangle: "There's talk of angels and the
Prophet Mohammed coming down from heaven to lead the fighting, talk of
martyrs whose bodies are glowing and emanating wonderful scents."
"I see no exit," said Record. "We've been down that road before. It's
called Vietnamisation. The idea that we're going to have an Iraqi
force trained to defeat an enemy we can't defeat stretches the
imagination. They will be tainted by their very association with the
foreign occupier. In fact, we had more time and money in state
building in Vietnam than in Iraq."
General Odom said: "This is far graver than Vietnam. There wasn't as
much at stake strategically, though in both cases we mindlessly went
ahead with the war that was not constructive for US aims. But now
we're in a region far more volatile, and we're in much worse shape
with our allies."
Terrill believes that any sustained US military offensive against the
no-go areas "could become so controversial that members of the Iraqi
government would feel compelled to resign". Thus, an attempted
military solution would destroy the slightest remaining political
legitimacy. "If we leave and there's no civil war, that's a victory."
General Hoare believes from the information he has received that "a
decision has been made" to attack Fallujah "after the first Tuesday in
November. That's the cynical part of it - after the election. The
signs are all there."
He compares any such planned attack to the late Syrian dictator Hafez
al-Asad's razing of the rebel city of Hama. "You could flatten it,"
said Hoare. "US military forces would prevail, casualties would be
high, there would be inconclusive results with respect to the bad
guys, their leadership would escape, and civilians would be caught in
the middle. I hate that phrase collateral damage. And they talked
about dancing in the street, a beacon for democracy."
General Odom remarked that the tension between the Bush administration
and the senior military officers over Iraqi was worse than any he has
ever seen with any previous government, including Vietnam. "I've never
seen it so bad between the office of the secretary of defence and the
military. There's a significant majority believing this is a disaster.
The two parties whose interests have been advanced have been the
Iranians and al-Qaida. Bin Laden could argue with some cogency that
our going into Iraq was the equivalent of the Germans in Stalingrad.
They defeated themselves by pouring more in there. Tragic."
· Sidney Blumenthal, a former senior adviser to President Clinton, is
Washington bureau chief of salon.com
sidney_blumenthal@ yahoo.com
(c) 2004 Guardian Newspapers LTD.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
17 Sep 2004 07:30:06 AM |
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1305360,00.html
Which just says what we knew when it started.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Iraq Worse Than Vietnam |
17 Sep 2004 09:24:19 PM |
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On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:30:06 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:45:20 -0400, "Michelle Malkin"
<hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1305360,00.html
Which just says what we knew when it started.
*Before* it started.
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