| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Brian Westley" |
| Date: |
29 Aug 2004 12:43:19 PM |
| Object: |
Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
....
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
29 Aug 2004 07:59:14 PM |
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"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
29 Aug 2004 09:14:01 PM |
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"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
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| User: "Holy Crusader" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 05:45:44 AM |
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Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
The reason is that religious clothes (as oppressive as they are) have
no place in secular republican institution. It has nothing to do with
terrorism or USA invading muslims countries but as a reminder of a
decision of the french constitution to remains secular (free of
religion) in 1905.
.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 10:17:02 AM |
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(Holy Crusader) writes:
Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
The reason is that religious clothes (as oppressive as they are) have
no place in secular republican institution. It has nothing to do with
terrorism or USA invading muslims countries but as a reminder of a
decision of the french constitution to remains secular (free of
religion) in 1905.
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades.
You'd almost conclude that this law was passed specifically
against Muslims and a rationale made up after the fact.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
03 Sep 2004 06:40:27 AM |
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Le Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades. You'd almost
conclude that this law was passed specifically against Muslims and a
rationale made up after the fact.
Jews never posed that kind of problem. They don't go around trying to
convert people, do they?
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
03 Sep 2004 12:15:16 PM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades. You'd almost
conclude that this law was passed specifically against Muslims and a
rationale made up after the fact.
Jews never posed that kind of problem. They don't go around trying to
convert people, do they?
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to
be "trying to convert people", so, according to the law you're
defending, yes, Jews DO go around trying to convert people by
wearing an article of clothing that makes it obvious they're Jews.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
05 Sep 2004 06:36:02 AM |
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"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:4138a6a4$0$8091$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades. You'd
almost
conclude that this law was passed specifically against Muslims and a
rationale made up after the fact.
Jews never posed that kind of problem. They don't go around trying to
convert people, do they?
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to
be "trying to convert people", so, according to the law you're
defending, yes, Jews DO go around trying to convert people by
wearing an article of clothing that makes it obvious they're Jews.
Why do you say that you think that thye are trying to convert people?
.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
05 Sep 2004 10:45:44 AM |
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"Fester" <not@home.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:4138a6a4$0$8091$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades. You'd
almost
conclude that this law was passed specifically against Muslims and a
rationale made up after the fact.
Jews never posed that kind of problem. They don't go around trying to
convert people, do they?
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to
be "trying to convert people", so, according to the law you're
defending, yes, Jews DO go around trying to convert people by
wearing an article of clothing that makes it obvious they're Jews.
Why do you say that you think that thye are trying to convert people?
I don't, idiot. If you could read, you'd realize that I was
referring to the French law's rationale, not my personal opinion.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Fester" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
05 Sep 2004 02:14:44 PM |
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"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413b34a8$0$65608$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:4138a6a4$0$8091$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades. You'd
almost
conclude that this law was passed specifically against Muslims and a
rationale made up after the fact.
Jews never posed that kind of problem. They don't go around trying to
convert people, do they?
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to
be "trying to convert people", so, according to the law you're
defending, yes, Jews DO go around trying to convert people by
wearing an article of clothing that makes it obvious they're Jews.
Why do you say that you think that thye are trying to convert people?
I don't, idiot.
I'd say you had ***** for brains, but theat would be an insult to steaming
piles everywhere.
If you could read, you'd realize that I was
referring to the French law's rationale, not my personal opinion.
Are you *really* so stupid as to think that the French out of fear that
people might be swayed by the snappy Jewish yamicas or Muslim burkhas that
they would be convinced to pass such a law? No really, can you possibly be
that dumb?
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
05 Sep 2004 02:34:31 PM |
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"Fester" <not@home.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413b34a8$0$65608$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
"Fester" <not@home.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:4138a6a4$0$8091$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades. You'd
almost
conclude that this law was passed specifically against Muslims and a
rationale made up after the fact.
Jews never posed that kind of problem. They don't go around trying to
convert people, do they?
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to
be "trying to convert people", so, according to the law you're
defending, yes, Jews DO go around trying to convert people by
wearing an article of clothing that makes it obvious they're Jews.
Why do you say that you think that thye are trying to convert people?
I don't, idiot.
I'd say you had ***** for brains, but theat would be an insult to steaming
piles everywhere.
If you could read, you'd realize that I was
referring to the French law's rationale, not my personal opinion.
Are you *really* so stupid as to think that the French out of fear that
people might be swayed by the snappy Jewish yamicas or Muslim burkhas that
they would be convinced to pass such a law?
No, fuckhead, obviously not. But that's the reason the French
government is using as a rationale for the law. I'm arguing
against it, as it's obviously only really aimed at Muslims.
No really, can you possibly be
that dumb?
No, I'm not. You're the idiot here.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "bruno" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
06 Sep 2004 06:26:46 PM |
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some little things about the "scarf law"
1° It isn't a new law. It exist since the birth of the laïc french
school in 1881.
2° It isn't a law against muslim: a big Cristian cross or a jewish Kippa
are forbidden too.
3° It isn't only a law against religion: politic Tshirts are forbidden.
4° It isn't a law agains't liberty: it is only in state schools. in
France you have the choice. A muslim can study in a Catholic schools (It
happen very often). Muslims can built a coranic school in France. It exist!
I teach since about 20 years in a state school, I have had a lot of
muslim, Christian, Catholic pupils (I think so, that's their problem)
and I never had to say something.
Bruno
apologize for my poor english.
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| User: "bruno" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
06 Sep 2004 06:32:59 PM |
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Chirac DID say he wants this ban extended to businesses
Where have your read this stuff. in the Sun! Do you Know what sort of
paper the Sun is? Especially about France?
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
05 Sep 2004 05:21:10 AM |
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Le Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:15:16 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to be "trying
to convert people", so, according to the law you're defending, yes, Jews
DO go around trying to convert people by wearing an article of clothing
that makes it obvious they're Jews.
Duh, they don't wear kippas in school if they're told they're not allowed
to.
What they wear in the street has nothing to do with this law.
.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
05 Sep 2004 10:36:09 AM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Fri, 03 Sep 2004 17:15:16 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
The new French law considers just wearing a religious symbol to be "trying
to convert people", so, according to the law you're defending, yes, Jews
DO go around trying to convert people by wearing an article of clothing
that makes it obvious they're Jews.
Duh, they don't wear kippas in school if they're told they're not allowed
to.
Exactly. BOY, you're stupid. Seriously.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 10:51:53 AM |
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On 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 GMT, Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote:
damericano1@yahoo.com (Holy Crusader) writes:
Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
The reason is that religious clothes (as oppressive as they are) have
no place in secular republican institution. It has nothing to do with
terrorism or USA invading muslims countries but as a reminder of a
decision of the french constitution to remains secular (free of
religion) in 1905.
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades.
You'd almost conclude that this law was passed specifically
against Muslims and a rationale made up after the fact.
If you didn't know the reason for it: a Muslim schoolgirl was beaten
up for wearing the headscarf. By members of another religion. In a
secular country this is little different than gang members nbeating up
someone wearing different insignia.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 11:09:40 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> writes:
On 01 Sep 2004 15:17:02 GMT, Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote:
damericano1@yahoo.com (Holy Crusader) writes:
Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
The reason is that religious clothes (as oppressive as they are) have
no place in secular republican institution. It has nothing to do with
terrorism or USA invading muslims countries but as a reminder of a
decision of the french constitution to remains secular (free of
religion) in 1905.
Odd that France didn't notice Jewish yarmulkes for decades.
You'd almost conclude that this law was passed specifically
against Muslims and a rationale made up after the fact.
If you didn't know the reason for it: a Muslim schoolgirl was beaten
up for wearing the headscarf. By members of another religion. In a
secular country this is little different than gang members nbeating up
someone wearing different insignia.
Muslim girls have been expelled from French schools just for
wearing scarves for years now:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/137/story_13798_1.html
....
France has grappled with the scarf issue for nearly 15 years. It began
in 1989 when two 14-year-old school girls refused to remove their
head-coverings. Dozens of girls were expelled from school in the past
two years for refusing to remove head scarves.
....
The recent change is that schools used to have individual
policies, but this year it's a nationwide policy.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 05:51:37 AM |
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On 1 Sep 2004 03:45:44 -0700, (Holy Crusader)
wrote:
Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
The reason is that religious clothes (as oppressive as they are) have
no place in secular republican institution. It has nothing to do with
terrorism or USA invading muslims countries but as a reminder of a
decision of the french constitution to remains secular (free of
religion) in 1905.
Actually, it was because a schoolgirl wearing the Muslim scarf was
beaten up by kids from another religion.
.
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| User: "Holy Crusader" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 11:47:33 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<jbabj0lqv0c7cib9ijk62dppjtenp67d6l@4ax.com>...
On 1 Sep 2004 03:45:44 -0700, (Holy Crusader)
wrote:
Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
The reason is that religious clothes (as oppressive as they are) have
no place in secular republican institution. It has nothing to do with
terrorism or USA invading muslims countries but as a reminder of a
decision of the french constitution to remains secular (free of
religion) in 1905.
Actually, it was because a schoolgirl wearing the Muslim scarf was
beaten up by kids from another religion.
Actually in France it's the other way aroung, a girl can be beaten up
by islamist gang if she doesn't wear the muslim scarf in their
neighboorhood
.
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| User: "Guy Parent" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 11:14:49 AM |
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Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
The French are following precisely the same logic that has led to the
banning of Christian symbols in US schools - nothing to do with
terrorists I suppose you would look with understanding , if not
sympathy, on Christians taking hostages in an effort to overturn the
court rulings?
The logic seems to be that symbols are only to be banned if they
represent the religion of the majority group.
It' s sickening to hear demands for tolerance coming from the mouths
of these people who if they had their way would wipe out centuries of
progress in the west towards freedom, tolerance and democracy.
GP
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 11:51:59 AM |
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(Guy Parent) writes:
Brian Westley <westley@visi.com> wrote in message news:<41328d69$0$65574$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>...
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence
when their religious rights are suppressed, as history shows.
Governments need to learn this.
The French are following precisely the same logic that has led to the
banning of Christian symbols in US schools - nothing to do with
terrorists
Not at all; in the US, the "banning" of christian symbols is only
directed at government agents like the school administration;
public schools can't put up religious emblems. Students themselves
are free to wear religious symbols.
In France, the STUDENTS are being prevented from wearing religious
symbols; that wouldn't hold up under the US constitution.
I suppose you would look with understanding , if not
sympathy, on Christians taking hostages in an effort to overturn the
court rulings?
Not the US rulings; if the US became more totalitarian and
prevented students from exercising their religious rights,
then I wouldn't be surprised.
The logic seems to be that symbols are only to be banned if they
represent the religion of the majority group.
That's not the logic at all.
In the US, no religious group gets have their religion pushed by
public schools; since christians are the majority, infringements
almost always involve christians trying to get the school to
advance their religion, so that's all you ever see struck down.
But every student gets to practice their religion, including
wearing religious emblems; again, the most frequent court cases
that arise involve students of minority religions being prevented
from exercising their religion.
It' s sickening to hear demands for tolerance coming from the mouths
of these people who if they had their way would wipe out centuries of
progress in the west towards freedom, tolerance and democracy.
Are you talking about muslims or christians?
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 12:56:09 PM |
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Brian Westley says in part
The French are following precisely the same logic that has led to the
banning of Christian symbols in US schools - nothing to do with
terrorists
Not at all; in the US, the "banning" of christian symbols is only
directed at government agents like the school administration;
public schools can't put up religious emblems. Students themselves
are free to wear religious symbols.
So are students in France, now and in the future.
I might add that US students are limited in the kind of religious symbols they
can wear. They can't be ostentatious or disruptive. One doubts, for example,
that a kid could wear a football helmet with a 5-foot cross sticking out the
top.
In France, the STUDENTS are being prevented from wearing religious
symbols;
Not true. The law that takes effect this week applies only to "conspicuous"
religious symbols. Catholic kids can still wear crosses, but not the gigantic,
ostentatious ones the church is now pushing. Same for other religions.
... that wouldn't hold up under the US constitution.
France is not bound by the US constitution, and has managed to do quite well
for "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" without it.
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 08:24:10 PM |
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On 30 Aug 2004 17:56:09 GMT, jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A)
wrote:
Brian Westley says in part
The French are following precisely the same logic that has led to the
banning of Christian symbols in US schools - nothing to do with
terrorists
Not at all; in the US, the "banning" of christian symbols is only
directed at government agents like the school administration;
public schools can't put up religious emblems. Students themselves
are free to wear religious symbols.
So are students in France, now and in the future.
I might add that US students are limited in the kind of religious symbols they
can wear. They can't be ostentatious or disruptive. One doubts, for example,
that a kid could wear a football helmet with a 5-foot cross sticking out the
top.
In France, the STUDENTS are being prevented from wearing religious
symbols;
Not true. The law that takes effect this week applies only to "conspicuous"
religious symbols. Catholic kids can still wear crosses, but not the gigantic,
ostentatious ones the church is now pushing. Same for other religions.
... that wouldn't hold up under the US constitution.
France is not bound by the US constitution, and has managed to do quite well
for "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" without it.
Yep. That "guilty until proven innocent" justice system of theirs is
certainly something worth emulating. <G>
But then, I guess when it comes to certain types of offenses, we
*have* been emulating it for quite a while now....
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
31 Aug 2004 12:08:30 AM |
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Le Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:24:10 +0000, John Baker a écrit :
Yep. That "guilty until proven innocent" justice system of theirs is
certainly something worth emulating. <G>
It kind of compares favorably to the "deathrow'ed until proven white"
currently in place Texas and many other southern states, doesn't it?
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 03:44:40 PM |
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 07:08:30 +0200, Divin Marquis
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> thought hard and said:
Le Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:24:10 +0000, John Baker a écrit :
Yep. That "guilty until proven innocent" justice system of theirs is
certainly something worth emulating. <G>
It kind of compares favorably to the "deathrow'ed until proven white"
currently in place Texas and many other southern states, doesn't it?
Would you care to join the Twenty-First century, Divin?
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 01:07:55 PM |
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jenny6833a@aol.comClothes (Jenny6833A) writes:
Brian Westley says in part
The French are following precisely the same logic that has led to the
banning of Christian symbols in US schools - nothing to do with
terrorists
Not at all; in the US, the "banning" of christian symbols is only
directed at government agents like the school administration;
public schools can't put up religious emblems. Students themselves
are free to wear religious symbols.
So are students in France, now and in the future.
Not in their public schools.
I might add that US students are limited in the kind of religious symbols they
can wear. They can't be ostentatious or disruptive. One doubts, for example,
that a kid could wear a football helmet with a 5-foot cross sticking out the
top.
They can certainly wear scarves, n'est pas?
Can they wear scarves in France?
In France, the STUDENTS are being prevented from wearing religious
symbols;
Not true. The law that takes effect this week applies only to "conspicuous"
religious symbols. Catholic kids can still wear crosses, but not the gigantic,
ostentatious ones the church is now pushing. Same for other religions.
So, can a muslim student wear an "inconspicuous" scarf that still
covers her hair as her religion requires? Or does the law just
happen to work out such that christians can still exercise their
religion to some extent, and muslims can't?
... that wouldn't hold up under the US constitution.
France is not bound by the US constitution, and has managed to do quite well
for "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" without it.
Not lately.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "spakka" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 02:19:55 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 18:07:55 +0000, Brian Westley wrote:
So, can a muslim student wear an "inconspicuous" scarf that still
covers her hair as her religion requires? Or does the law just
happen to work out such that christians can still exercise their
religion to some extent, and muslims can't?
Muslim kids can still affirm their faith with a replica explosive
belt hidden under the uniform.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
30 Aug 2004 07:13:11 AM |
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Brian Westley wrote:
"Clayton Has Lost 15 Kilograms" <cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> writes:
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:413215b7$0$65604$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/29/international/middleeast/29CND-IRAQ.html
BAGHDAD, Aug. 29 Ñ A militant Iraqi Islamic group holding two French
journalists has demanded that France annul a new law banning Muslim head
scarves in public schools, adding an ominous new transnational dimension
to the wave of foreigner kidnappings here.
So they believe their scarves are more important than human life...just
another reason to keep them banned!
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting
the rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few
terrorists isn't a good reason, either.
They're banning them in Schools, as they are not part of the school uniform.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
31 Aug 2004 12:06:09 AM |
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Le Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:14:01 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting the
rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few terrorists
isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence when their
religious rights are suppressed, as history shows. Governments need to
learn this.
This ban only affects gov't-funded public school. If you don't like it,
feel free to help pay for them' islamic private schools. *My* tax ¤¤¤
won't go fund religious crap. Vive la République.
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| User: "Brian Westley" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
31 Aug 2004 12:36:44 AM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> writes:
Le Mon, 30 Aug 2004 02:14:01 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
There was no reason in the first place to ban them, and restricting the
rights of entire groups of people due to the actions of a few terrorists
isn't a good reason, either. People DO resort to violence when their
religious rights are suppressed, as history shows. Governments need to
learn this.
This ban only affects gov't-funded public school. If you don't like it,
feel free to help pay for them' islamic private schools. *My* tax ¤¤¤
won't go fund religious crap. Vive la République.
What "religious crap" are YOU funding when students wear
their OWN religious symbols to public schools?
If you're going to come up with an excuse, don't come up
with such an obviously false one.
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Iraqi kidnappers demand france lift its school scarf ban |
01 Sep 2004 02:55:36 AM |
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Le Tue, 31 Aug 2004 05:36:44 +0000, Brian Westley a écrit :
This ban only affects gov't-funded public school. If you don't like it,
feel free to help pay for them' islamic private schools. *My* tax
¤¤¤ won't go fund religious crap. Vive la République.
What "religious crap" are YOU funding when students wear their OWN
religious symbols to public schools?
They're using schools as a way to advertise and effectively coerce
people into compliance. Social pressure: girls who don't wear the scarves
in some areas are made to feel guilty. This is unacceptable.
If you're going to come up with an excuse, don't come up with such an
obviously false one.
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