Religions > Atheism > irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Brian Westley" |
| Date: |
04 Feb 2004 06:27:40 PM |
| Object: |
irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/02/05/044.html
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday, wading into the
national debate on corporate social responsibility.
....
The church itself is exempt from taxation, though by law it has to pay
on revenues derived from its many businesses. It has, however, been
lobbying the government to exempt it from property taxes.
The church remains a popular institution despite persistent questions
about its business practices.
....
---
Merlyn LeRoy
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| User: "Alun Harford" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
04 Feb 2004 07:47:44 PM |
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"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:40218dfc$0$41292$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/02/05/044.html
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday, wading into the
national debate on corporate social responsibility.
...
The church itself is exempt from taxation, though by law it has to pay
on revenues derived from its many businesses. It has, however, been
lobbying the government to exempt it from property taxes.
The church remains a popular institution despite persistent questions
about its business practices.
Why do you think that's ironic?
Is this the stereotypical (and rarther ironic) American who says that
everything is ironic but never gets irony?
Alun Harford
Alun Harford
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| User: "Goodness Godless" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
04 Feb 2004 08:43:10 PM |
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"Alun Harford" <alunharford@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bvs7bk$rrl$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
"Brian Westley" <westley@visi.com> wrote in message
news:40218dfc$0$41292$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com...
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/02/05/044.html
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday, wading into the
national debate on corporate social responsibility.
...
The church itself is exempt from taxation, though by law it has to pay
on revenues derived from its many businesses. It has, however, been
lobbying the government to exempt it from property taxes.
The church remains a popular institution despite persistent questions
about its business practices.
Why do you think that's ironic?
Is this the stereotypical (and rather ironic) American who says that
everything is ironic but never gets irony?
Alun Harford
Alun Harford
Hey, calm down Alun, the rest of the world has a stereotypical view
of USians!?
I know we don't *have to watch Hollywood movies, but...
stereotypes... come on!
Anyway, this idea that the Old Soviets are gagging for a taste of Mumbo
Jumbo is also just stereotypical. All the research shows that they still
hold to
their 'Atheistic Brainwashing' and still do far less Witch Doctoring than
your
average USian, or even EUian!
--
Goodness Godless
A Fascist is someone who has never
experienced Jet Lag. - anon
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
04 Feb 2004 08:22:44 PM |
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And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:27:40 +0000 didst Brian Westley speak
thusly:
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday....The church itself is
exempt from taxation...
Well, that rather sums that up...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 08:10:06 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:27:40 +0000 didst Brian Westley speak
thusly:
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday....The church itself is
exempt from taxation...
Well, that rather sums that up...
Only when one ignores the fact that Alms for the poor and needy,
orphans, elderly, etc. is a major emphasis of the Orthodox Church.
E.g., our parish with an annual budget of $48,000, in November alone
contributed $650.00 in food and cash (amounting to 13% of our budget) to
the community's drive for the local needy.
methodios (Denny)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 08:29:05 AM |
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And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 09:10:06 -0500 didst dgillesp speak thusly:
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:27:40 +0000 didst Brian Westley speak
thusly:
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday....The church itself is
exempt from taxation...
Well, that rather sums that up...
Only when one ignores the fact that Alms for the poor and needy,
orphans, elderly, etc. is a major emphasis of the Orthodox Church.
E.g., our parish with an annual budget of $48,000, in November alone
contributed $650.00 in food and cash (amounting to 13% of our budget) to
the community's drive for the local needy.
The churches are hypocritical babbling anything about taxes.
And nobody actually knows what's really being spent. There's no
independent accounting. Churches can do just about anything they want. So
we don't know you're telling the truth. Or being *told the truth.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 09:51:42 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 09:10:06 -0500 didst dgillesp speak thusly:
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:27:40 +0000 didst Brian Westley speak
thusly:
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday....The church itself is
exempt from taxation...
Well, that rather sums that up...
Only when one ignores the fact that Alms for the poor and needy,
orphans, elderly, etc. is a major emphasis of the Orthodox Church.
E.g., our parish with an annual budget of $48,000, in November alone
contributed $650.00 in food and cash (amounting to 13% of our budget) to
the community's drive for the local needy.
The churches are hypocritical babbling anything about taxes.
And nobody actually knows what's really being spent. There's no
independent accounting. Churches can do just about anything they want. So
we don't know you're telling the truth. Or being *told the truth.
And we do know for certain how our taxes are being spent (theoretically,
of course). As a Parish Council member I could easily spot any
mishandling of funds. Your response inspired me to check our last
treasurer's report and found I had forgotten that we also forwarded
$630.00 to the International Orthodox Christian Charities. With the
$650 to local charities that is equal to 25% or 1/4 of our annual
budget. And with a $48,000 total budget you can imagine what a great
salary our priest receives. If the church were taxed as a business,
that would result in closing a huge number of struggling parishes--and
all to the good, I take it, from your point of view.
methodios (Denny)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 10:26:51 AM |
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And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:51:42 -0500 didst dgillesp speak thusly:
And we do know for certain how our taxes are being spent (theoretically,
of course). As a Parish Council member
Yeah. Uh huh. But with taxes, *I can go look too. When it comes to this
parish council thing, I just have to believe you.
I could easily spot any
mishandling of funds. Your response inspired me to check our last
treasurer's report and found I had forgotten that we also forwarded
$630.00 to the International Orthodox Christian Charities. With the
$650 to local charities that is equal to 25% or 1/4 of our annual
budget. And with a $48,000 total budget you can imagine what a great
salary our priest receives. If the church were taxed as a business,
that would result in closing a huge number of struggling parishes--and
all to the good, I take it, from your point of view.
Irrelevant actually. I'm just amused at the hypocrisy of telling *other
people they need to pay taxes.
Of course, there is the interesting question why this infinitely powerful
creator of the universe can't even fund his own churches...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 11:58:28 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:51:42 -0500 didst dgillesp speak thusly:
And we do know for certain how our taxes are being spent (theoretically,
of course). As a Parish Council member
Yeah. Uh huh. But with taxes, *I can go look too. When it comes to this
parish council thing, I just have to believe you.
I could easily spot any
mishandling of funds. Your response inspired me to check our last
treasurer's report and found I had forgotten that we also forwarded
$630.00 to the International Orthodox Christian Charities. With the
$650 to local charities that is equal to 25% or 1/4 of our annual
budget. And with a $48,000 total budget you can imagine what a great
salary our priest receives. If the church were taxed as a business,
that would result in closing a huge number of struggling parishes--and
all to the good, I take it, from your point of view.
Irrelevant actually. I'm just amused at the hypocrisy of telling *other
people they need to pay taxes.
In the first place it's not primarily other people, but the *Churcb's
own people* first of all are told to pay their taxes, but it's not a bad
idea for the others as well.
Of course, there is the interesting question why this infinitely powerful
creator of the universe can't even fund his own churches...
But, of course, if one's only concept of an omnipotent Creator is that
of a Big-Sugar-Daddy-in-the-Sky. That way we would never learn to take
any responsiblity for ourselves and our actions or lack thereof, now
would we?
methodios (Denny)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
09 Feb 2004 12:15:57 PM |
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On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 12:58:28 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <40228444.CAA21529@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
And so upon Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:51:42 -0500 didst dgillesp speak thusly:
(snip)
Of course, there is the interesting question why this infinitely powerful
creator of the universe can't even fund his own churches...
But, of course, if one's only concept of an omnipotent Creator is that
of a Big-Sugar-Daddy-in-the-Sky. That way we would never learn to take
any responsiblity for ourselves and our actions or lack thereof, now
would we?
And you don't.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 09:20:54 PM |
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On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:51:42 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
And we do know for certain how our taxes are being spent (theoretically,
of course).
Purely in theory, of course.
As a Parish Council member I could easily spot any
mishandling of funds.
Only if you are schooled in accounting. I am not, so I could not spot
it at all, let alone easily.
If the church were taxed as a business,
that would result in closing a huge number of struggling parishes--and
all to the good, I take it, from your point of view.
Why not? Struggling business usually go out of business. No matter if
they offer good products or bad.
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| User: "AuntieLib" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 01:47:48 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
The churches are hypocritical babbling anything about taxes.
And nobody actually knows what's really being spent. There's no
independent accounting. Churches can do just about anything they want. So
we don't know you're telling the truth. Or being *told the truth.
And we do know for certain how our taxes are being spent (theoretically,
of course). As a Parish Council member I could easily spot any
mishandling of funds. Your response inspired me to check our last
treasurer's report and found I had forgotten that we also forwarded
$630.00 to the International Orthodox Christian Charities. With the
$650 to local charities that is equal to 25% or 1/4 of our annual
budget.
Denny, Denny. You did it again! Am I to conclude that it *wasn't* a
typo? That you meant 650.00? And, now, 630.00? $1,280 is nowhere
*near* 25% of your $48,000 annual budget! Try 2.5%. Some Parish
Council memeber you are. Is that how "certain" you are of how your
funds are spent? By fudging the numbers?
And with a $48,000 total budget you can imagine what a great
salary our priest receives.
Since you spent only 2.5% of your budget for charitable work, that
leaves quite a tidy sum for your priest's salary. Most other church
workers are volunteers, so they wouldn't need pay. And priests
generally receive much more directly from parishoners, such as meals
and other gifts. Not to mention the fees for weddings and funerals
and baptisms. Yikes. Your priest makes quite a nice living!
If the church were taxed as a business, that would result in closing a huge
number of struggling parishes--and all to the good, I take it, from your
point of view.
Darn tootin'! If churches were taxed as businesses, governments would
be able to pay for the (admittedly paltry) services churches claim to
provide to the community. Then churches could get back to doing what
they do best: constructing pretty buildings, collecting religious art
and making sure that nobody sleeps with anyone they shouldn't.
elizabeth
aa#2098
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion
is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 06:00:28 PM |
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AuntieLib wrote:
dgillesp wrote:
The churches are hypocritical babbling anything about taxes.
And nobody actually knows what's really being spent. There's no
independent accounting. Churches can do just about anything they want. So
we don't know you're telling the truth. Or being *told the truth.
And we do know for certain how our taxes are being spent (theoretically,
of course). As a Parish Council member I could easily spot any
mishandling of funds. Your response inspired me to check our last
treasurer's report and found I had forgotten that we also forwarded
$630.00 to the International Orthodox Christian Charities. With the
$650 to local charities that is equal to 25% or 1/4 of our annual
budget.
Denny, Denny. You did it again! Am I to conclude that it *wasn't* a
typo? That you meant 650.00? And, now, 630.00? $1,280 is nowhere
*near* 25% of your $48,000 annual budget! Try 2.5%.
Is my face red? You bet it is. Not being much of a mathematician
(obviously), I was using my calculator and failed to notice that the
decimal was set on "fixed 2". I have never been nominated to be
treasurer or financial secretary, which suggests that my fellow members
have good judgment at least in some matters.
Some Parish
Council memeber you are. Is that how "certain" you are of how your
funds are spent? By fudging the numbers?
No fudging numbers here, because some elizabeth in the parish would be
quite alert to pick up on any discrepany in the treasurer's monthly
report, and would never hesitate to call us to account for it.
And with a $48,000 total budget you can imagine what a great
salary our priest receives.
Since you spent only 2.5% of your budget for charitable work, that
leaves quite a tidy sum for your priest's salary. Most other church
workers are volunteers, so they wouldn't need pay. And priests
generally receive much more directly from parishoners, such as meals
and other gifts. Not to mention the fees for weddings and funerals
and baptisms. Yikes. Your priest makes quite a nice living!
Actually his salary will be slightly less than half this year's budget
plus health insurance, utilities, and pension. The remainder of the
budget goes for property maintenance, administrative expenses, diocesan
assessments, etc. As for honoria, our priest had one funeral, two
baptisms (siblings) and no weddings in 2003. What with four small
children to feed, clothe, educate, and keep well and healthy, he does
unusually well to make it... period.
If the church were taxed as a business, that would result in closing a huge
number of struggling parishes--and all to the good, I take it, from your
point of view.
Darn tootin'! If churches were taxed as businesses, governments would
be able to pay for the (admittedly paltry) services churches claim to
provide to the community. Then churches could get back to doing what
they do best: constructing pretty buildings, collecting religious art
and making sure that nobody sleeps with anyone they shouldn't.
Just curious: what percent of our $48,000.00 budget do you think should
be paid to the government in taxes?
We have about 40 "dues paying" members.
methodios (Denny)
elizabeth
aa#2098
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion
is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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| User: "AuntieLib" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
06 Feb 2004 04:58:05 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
Denny, Denny. You did it again! Am I to conclude that it *wasn't* a
typo? That you meant 650.00? And, now, 630.00? $1,280 is nowhere
*near* 25% of your $48,000 annual budget! Try 2.5%.
Is my face red? You bet it is.
Well... maybe slightly pinkish.
Not being much of a mathematician (obviously), I was using my calculator
and failed to notice that the decimal was set on "fixed 2". I have never
been nominated to be treasurer or financial secretary, which suggests that
my fellow members have good judgment at least in some matters.
Whew! That's at least good news.
Some Parish Council memeber you are. Is that how "certain" you are of
how your funds are spent? By fudging the numbers?
No fudging numbers here, because some elizabeth in the parish would be
quite alert to pick up on any discrepany in the treasurer's monthly
report, and would never hesitate to call us to account for it.
Exactamundo. (Who says accountants don't serve any useful purpose?)
<snip>
Actually his salary will be slightly less than half this year's budget
plus health insurance, utilities, and pension.
When you throw in housing (since most parishes provide a parish house
of some sort) that doesn't leave much in the way of living expenses
for your priest. That means the remainder of the salary is gravy. I
mean, what, exactly, does a priest have to pay for? Food, of course.
Necessaries. Any extras. Schooling would be free if there is a
parish school and public education is free if there isn't. Travel
expenses in the pursuit of parish work would be reimbursed. Neither
the priest nor the church currently have to pay income tax since the
church is exempt from employment taxes and the priest is exempt from
withholding. A little, in this case, would go a long way.
budget goes for property maintenance, administrative expenses, diocesan
assessments, etc. As for honoria, our priest had one funeral, two
baptisms (siblings) and no weddings in 2003. What with four small
children to feed, clothe, educate, and keep well and healthy, he does
unusually well to make it... period.
See above.
Darn tootin'! If churches were taxed as businesses, governments would
be able to pay for the (admittedly paltry) services churches claim to
provide to the community. Then churches could get back to doing what
they do best: constructing pretty buildings, collecting religious art
and making sure that nobody sleeps with anyone they shouldn't.
Just curious: what percent of our $48,000.00 budget do you think should
be paid to the government in taxes?
The same as any other business. (For corporations, 15% on the first
$50,000 *after* deductions. That percentage would go down, of course,
if all religious institutions were forced to contribute to the pot.
There are literally millions in tax revenue to be had from the
Catholic Church alone.) If your small church has little left after
expenses (and employment taxes are deductible for corporations) then
you'd pay very little.
We have about 40 "dues paying" members.
Members don't matter. It's the amount of money you take in that would
matter. If you don't make much, you don't pay much. (Hey, it works
for Republicans who claim taxing the poor doesn't hurt them because
they don't pay very much to begin with.)
I just think fair should be fair.
elizabeth
aa#2098
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion
is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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| User: "AuntieLib" |
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| Title: Re: irony alert: russian orthodox church says tax avoidance is theft |
05 Feb 2004 01:32:17 PM |
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dgillesp wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:
Tax avoidance is theft from orphans, the elderly, and the handicapped,
the Russian Orthodox Church announced Wednesday....The church itself is
exempt from taxation...
Well, that rather sums that up...
Only when one ignores the fact that Alms for the poor and needy,
orphans, elderly, etc. is a major emphasis of the Orthodox Church.
E.g., our parish with an annual budget of $48,000, in November alone
contributed $650.00 in food and cash (amounting to 13% of our budget) to
the community's drive for the local needy.
Was that a typo, Denny? (I'm an accountant so don't mess about with
the numbers!) Did you really mean a paltry "$650.00"? My calculator
says 13% of 48,000 is more like 6,240 and that 650 is less than 2% of
48,000. Did you mean to type 6,500.00?
Besides, even if it *was* 13%, that's not particularly "major" and
still way too low when you consider how much of most church's budgets
go toward buildings, salaries and perks for those running them. (Not
to mention the Catholic Church's vast art collections and the fact
that it is the largest single landowner in the world.) Churches claim
to be non-profit organisations but then go on to collect huge profits
in investments and sales, plus the already-tax-deductible
contributions of parishoners.
The irony here, for those who missed it, is that the Russian Orthodox
Church is claiming that avoidance of taxes is "theft"... while itself
avoiding taxes.
Color me unsurprised.
elizabeth
aa#2098
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion
is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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