Religions > Atheism > Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
09 Sep 2006 06:33:46 AM |
| Object: |
Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
Is America A 'Christian Nation'?
Religion, Government And Individual Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation
[excerpt]
s the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so.
Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim
that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some
politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying
that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who
argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more,
insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very
character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.
Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was
designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the
doctrines of (their version of) Christianity. Is this viewpoint accurate?
Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or
preference to Christianity? Did the founders of our government believe this
or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to
Christianity?
The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a
wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus
Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the
First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which
prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are
evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.
The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they
disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware
of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen
first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in
Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and
government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.
[end excerpt]
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "fred" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
12 Sep 2006 06:17:01 PM |
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wrote:
Is America A 'Christian Nation'?
Religion, Government And Individual Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation
[excerpt]
s the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so.
Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim
that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some
politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying
that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who
argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more,
insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very
character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.
Posts like this deliberately overlook that the Founders made major
distinctions between certain powers of the United States, aka the
federal government, and the state governments. Regardless what the
treasonous ACLU and Supreme Court want everybody to think about
Jefferson's "wall of separation," Jefferson had noted that the Founders
wrote the 1st and 10th Amendments in part to delegate government power
to address religious issues uniquely to the state governments.
"3. Resolved that it is true as a general principle and is also
expressly declared by one of the amendments to the constitution that
'the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively
or to the people': and that no power over the freedom of religion,
freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the US.
by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, all lawful
powers respecting the same did of right remain, & were reserved, to the
states or the people..." --Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions,
1798. http://tinyurl.com/oozoo
1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances.
10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people.
Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was
designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the
doctrines of (their version of) Christianity. Is this viewpoint accurate?
Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or
preference to Christianity? Did the founders of our government believe this
or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to
Christianity?
I agree with you that the United States - the federal government - was
not intended to be officially Christian or any other faith.
The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a
wholly secular document.
Your above statement that the US Constituiton is a wholly secular
document is an outright lie as evidenced by Jefferson's note about the
10th Amendment. Indeed, if Constituition-ignoring secularists think
that they have the license to force Jefferson's "wall of separation"
from a private letter into the "establishment clause" then they have no
basis for objecting if Christians find Jefferson's "Nature's God" and
"Creator" from the Declaration of Independence in the 10th Amendment.
It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus
Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the
First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which
prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are
evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.
Again, although it is true that the Founders sterilized the federal
government from assoctiation with any religion, suggesting that the
Founders likewise meant for the states to be sterilized from having
religious powers is an outright lie. Some of the states had indeed
established an official Christian state church before these same states
established the federal government and its Constitution.
And the only reason that there are no official state religions today is
because states having an official religion used their 10th A. power to
address religous issues to dissolve their state religions, not because
some federal judge said that they had to get rid of their state
religion because of the 1st Amendment of the federal Constitution.
The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they
disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well aware
of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen
first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in
Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion and
government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.
[end excerpt]
Because of Jefferson's note about the 10th Amendment, your above
paragraph is based entirely on Constitution-ignoring, anti-religious
expression political correctness.
<snipped for brevity>
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
13 Sep 2006 11:36:17 PM |
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fred wrote:
1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances.
Yes, That's the 1st Amendment, but that isn't all and it doesn't only
apply to the Federal Government.
10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people.
Good, good, but you left something out. I wonder what it is? Aren't
there more amendments to the Constitution than 1 and 10?
Your above statement that the US Constituiton is a wholly secular
document is an outright lie as evidenced by Jefferson's note about the
10th Amendment. Indeed, if Constituition-ignoring secularists think
that they have the license to force Jefferson's "wall of separation"
from a private letter into the "establishment clause" then they have no
basis for objecting if Christians find Jefferson's "Nature's God" and
"Creator" from the Declaration of Independence in the 10th Amendment.
Unfortunately, you are very much mistaken. The US Constitution IS an
wholly secular document.
Try reading the 14th Amendment, specifically Section 1:
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States
and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce
any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of
the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life,
liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any
person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
See the part where it states "No state shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the priviledges or immunities of citizens of the
United States?" That means that States DO NOT have the right to
infringe upon the 1st Amendment, no matter WHAT Jefferson wrote.
Constitution trumps Jefferson (as it should be). That's why they are
called Constitutional Amendments.
And the only reason that there are no official state religions today is
because states having an official religion used their 10th A. power to
address religous issues to dissolve their state religions, not because
some federal judge said that they had to get rid of their state
religion because of the 1st Amendment of the federal Constitution.
No actually it was due to the 14th Amendment.
Because of Jefferson's note about the 10th Amendment, your above
paragraph is based entirely on Constitution-ignoring, anti-religious
expression political correctness.
Seems like you've done the same thing, actually ignoring the US
Constitution, 14th Amendment. Hmm. Interesting, no?
/M
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
19 Sep 2006 11:12:33 PM |
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wrote:
fred wrote:
1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances.
Yes, That's the 1st Amendment, but that isn't all and it doesn't only
apply to the Federal Government.
10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people.
Good, good, but you left something out. I wonder what it is? Aren't
there more amendments to the Constitution than 1 and 10?
Actually, what he is leaving out is the unamended Constitution,
specifically Article VI, Clause 2.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be
made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be
made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
Law of the Land; **and the Judges in every State shall be bound
thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the
Contrary notwithstanding.** (emphasis mine)
This was the clause that limited the power of state governments as it
limited the power of the federal government. Anything that was
specified in the US Constutition also applied to the states, such as
the religious freedom clauses in the First Amendment. Both the 10th and
the 14th Amendments bolstered and clarified this clause: the 10th by
reinforcing that those limitations on government that were not
expressly in the Constitution were restored to the states or the people
and the 14th by reinforcing that the limitations that *were* specific
on federal power applied to state power as well (and all the way down
to any governmental body within the country). This became necessary
after the egregious abuse by eleven state governments in the early
1860s who illegally expanded their power in violation of the
Constitution. They believed that their power was absolute and they did
not have to adhere to the principles of limited-government conservatism
as the Constitution required. They were in error.
Rich Goranson
Amherst, NY, USA
aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Usage
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| User: "Jenni" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
09 Sep 2006 07:03:38 AM |
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If you call breaking laws, America is not a nation of Christians. Our
politicians call the bible in one hand and steal us blind with the other.
<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:gk95g25m4r2ubfnsarucpkovnbbmqjste6@4ax.com...
Is America A 'Christian Nation'?
Religion, Government And Individual Freedom
http://www.au.org/site/PageServer?pagename=resources_brochure_christiannation
[excerpt]
s the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so.
Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim
that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some
politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying
that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who
argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more,
insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very
character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.
Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was
designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the
doctrines of (their version of) Christianity. Is this viewpoint accurate?
Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or
preference to Christianity? Did the founders of our government believe
this
or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to
Christianity?
The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a
wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus
Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the
First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which
prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions
are
evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.
The Founding Fathers did not create a secular government because they
disliked religion. Many were believers themselves. Yet they were well
aware
of the dangers of church-state union. They had studied and even seen
first-hand the difficulties that church-state partnerships spawned in
Europe. During the American colonial period, alliances between religion
and
government produced oppression and tyranny on our own shores.
[end excerpt]
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Roedy Green" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
12 Sep 2006 05:20:43 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 07:33:46 -0400, wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
s the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so.
Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim
that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some
politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying
that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who
argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more,
insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very
character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a
Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
~ Treaty of Tripoli (1797) signed by John Adams
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green, http://mindprod.com
See links to the Lebanon photos that Google censored at
http://mindprod.com/politics/israel.html
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
13 Sep 2006 11:18:44 PM |
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Roedy Green wrote:
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 07:33:46 -0400, wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
s the United States a "Christian nation"? Some Americans think so.
Religious Right activists and right-wing television preachers often claim
that the United States was founded to be a Christian nation. Even some
politicians agree. If the people who make this assertion are merely saying
that most Americans are Christians, they might have a point. But those who
argue that America is a Christian nation usually mean something more,
insisting that the country should be officially Christian. The very
character of our country is at stake in the outcome of this debate.
"The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a
Jewish or a Mohammedan nation."
~ Treaty of Tripoli (1797) signed by John Adams
This isn't even close to what the Treaty of Tripoli states, Roedy. Look
it up, then educate yourself on the difference between "government" and
"nation."
Rick Smith
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| User: "Kate" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
12 Sep 2006 05:50:08 AM |
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Well I feel we are a religious nation does that mean Christian no. In
the Revolutionary War a wealthy Jewish man gave the government money
for the war that kept it alive. We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion since the founding of our nation. And
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice unless there is a higher law at work like the religious group
is breaking a serious law. During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Seperation of Church and State is vital to this and what makes the
United States great our unique Constitution and respect for all persons
who are citizens as free individuals.
.
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| User: "News" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And IndividualFreedom |
12 Sep 2006 07:26:53 AM |
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Kate wrote:
Well I feel we are a religious nation does that mean Christian no. In
the Revolutionary War a wealthy Jewish man gave the government money
for the war that kept it alive. We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion since the founding of our nation. And
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice unless there is a higher law at work like the religious group
is breaking a serious law. During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Seperation of Church and State is vital to this and what makes the
United States great our unique Constitution and respect for all persons
who are citizens as free individuals.
Today, Hispanics die in our wars at a higher rate than their percent of
population and some want to kick their families out of the US because
they're "bad" immigrants. It's too bad conservatism can't tolerate
other religions, ethicalness's and sexual orientations.
They think they're the supreme race.
Pat
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
13 Sep 2006 11:57:36 PM |
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News wrote:
Kate wrote:
Well I feel we are a religious nation does that mean Christian no. In
the Revolutionary War a wealthy Jewish man gave the government money
for the war that kept it alive. We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion since the founding of our nation. And
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice unless there is a higher law at work like the religious group
is breaking a serious law. During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Seperation of Church and State is vital to this and what makes the
United States great our unique Constitution and respect for all persons
who are citizens as free individuals.
Today, Hispanics die in our wars at a higher rate than their percent of
population and some want to kick their families out of the US because
they're "bad" immigrants. It's too bad conservatism can't tolerate
other religions, ethicalness's and sexual orientations.
They think they're the supreme race.
I assume by "bad," you mean illegally present in the US.
Just how many illegal hispanic immigrants serve in the US military
anyway? How many families of dead US soldiers of hispanic heritage have
been kicked out and which conservatives are responsible?
Rick Smith
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
12 Sep 2006 04:13:54 PM |
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On 12 Sep 2006 03:50:08 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158058208.191404.162560@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
Well I feel we are a religious nation does that mean Christian no. In
the Revolutionary War a wealthy Jewish man gave the government money
for the war that kept it alive. We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion since the founding of our nation. And
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice unless there is a higher law at work like the religious group
is breaking a serious law. During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Seperation of Church and State is vital to this and what makes the
United States great our unique Constitution and respect for all persons
who are citizens as free individuals.
Didn't you learn to punctuate at school?
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| User: "Kate" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
12 Sep 2006 05:11:35 PM |
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What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
12 Sep 2006 08:20:19 PM |
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On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
13 Sep 2006 11:43:50 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
Atheism relies as much on faith as any religion. So relax, you weren't
marginalized after all.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
18 Sep 2006 07:11:36 PM |
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On 13 Sep 2006 21:43:50 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158209030.803229.168170@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
Atheism relies as much on faith as any religion. So relax, you weren't
marginalized after all.
Atheism is a LACK of an acquired delusion.
It requires zero faith to have never acquired an attribute.
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
19 Sep 2006 10:29:05 PM |
|
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 21:43:50 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158209030.803229.168170@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
Atheism relies as much on faith as any religion. So relax, you weren't
marginalized after all.
Atheism is a LACK of an acquired delusion.
It requires zero faith to have never acquired an attribute.
So you say, but even so - It takes an extreme amount of faith to
believe that all you have acquired is all that there is.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
20 Sep 2006 03:21:45 AM |
|
|
On 19 Sep 2006 20:29:05 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158722945.132793.215670@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 21:43:50 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158209030.803229.168170@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
Atheism relies as much on faith as any religion. So relax, you weren't
marginalized after all.
Atheism is a LACK of an acquired delusion.
It requires zero faith to have never acquired an attribute.
So you say, but even so
A tacit admission that you may well just ignore the knowledgable
advice that you were totally incorrect in your definition.
- It takes an extreme amount of faith to
believe that all you have acquired is all that there is.
Good straw man.
For that is NOT what atheists need to assert.
Atheists need assert nothing at all.
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
What does it take to get this across to the apparently learning
disabled?
That's 2 wrong out of 2.
Care to try again?
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
20 Sep 2006 08:04:40 AM |
|
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 19 Sep 2006 20:29:05 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158722945.132793.215670@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 21:43:50 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158209030.803229.168170@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
Atheism relies as much on faith as any religion. So relax, you weren't
marginalized after all.
Atheism is a LACK of an acquired delusion.
It requires zero faith to have never acquired an attribute.
So you say, but even so
A tacit admission that you may well just ignore the knowledgable
advice that you were totally incorrect in your definition.
An admission of nothing, especially that your "advice" is knowledgable.
- It takes an extreme amount of faith to
believe that all you have acquired is all that there is.
Good straw man.
What, did you & Christopher attend the same debating class.
For that is NOT what atheists need to assert.
Atheists need assert nothing at all.
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, is a belief not a proven
fact. Your confidence (or allegience) in this belief is as strong as my
confidence in mine. That confidence is faith. You are a person of
faith.
What does it take to get this across to the apparently learning
disabled?
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, denigrating as
imbiciles in need of therapy all who disagree with their notions. When
in fact they are small, arrogant, in the box thinkers, who BELIEVE what
they understand at any given moment is the ultimate truth.
How do I know? I used to be one. But thankfully I've, shall I dare say,
evolved.
Rick Smith
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
20 Sep 2006 08:49:01 AM |
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|
On 20 Sep 2006 06:04:40 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 19 Sep 2006 20:29:05 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158722945.132793.215670@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 21:43:50 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158209030.803229.168170@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>
Michael Gray wrote:
On 12 Sep 2006 15:11:35 -0700, "Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158099095.444027.204560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
What is the problem? I have a learning disability and writing like this
is difficult I do my serious writing via a word processing program.
Plus going back to the work on the project several times re-reading it.
Plus for my dissertation I hired a proofreader.
Anyway this is about the subject not my difficulty writing.
Your lack of clarity made it hard for me to analyse your your
offering. It is entirely relevant.
I read through your screed, and you omitted atheists entirely from
your proposition.
Especially these parts:
We have been a haven for those
persecuted regardless of religion...
under the law all religions are given due respect and dignity to
practice...
During WWII people of all faiths bled for
this country and died for her and we respected all their beliefs.
Atheists are specifically marginalised and excluded by your very
wording, which may or may not reflect your opinion, something that I
am unable to ascertain due to your disability.
Atheism relies as much on faith as any religion. So relax, you weren't
marginalized after all.
Atheism is a LACK of an acquired delusion.
It requires zero faith to have never acquired an attribute.
So you say, but even so
A tacit admission that you may well just ignore the knowledgable
advice that you were totally incorrect in your definition.
An admission of nothing, especially that your "advice" is knowledgable.
Translate that into English.
- It takes an extreme amount of faith to
believe that all you have acquired is all that there is.
Good straw man.
What, did you & Christopher attend the same debating class.
How is calling your straw man a straw man "attendingthe same debating
class", moron?
He was being generous to you - you were actually and repeatedly lying
about us to our faces.
For that is NOT what atheists need to assert.
Atheists need assert nothing at all.
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
So what, liar?
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
Again, so what?
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Where did he say that, liar?
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, is a belief not a proven
fact. Your confidence (or allegience) in this belief is as strong as my
confidence in mine. That confidence is faith. You are a person of
faith.
Another of your lies, liar.
If you had a shred of human decency you would acknowledge your initial
mistake instead of insisting we're not telling the truth about
ourselves.
What does it take to get this across to the apparently learning
disabled?
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, denigrating as
imbiciles in need of therapy all who disagree with their notions. When
in fact they are small, arrogant, in the box thinkers, who BELIEVE what
they understand at any given moment is the ultimate truth.
How do I know? I used to be one. But thankfully I've, shall I dare say,
evolved.
Liar.
Rick Smith
.
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| User: "Chimp" |
|
| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
20 Sep 2006 08:22:43 AM |
|
|
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
Most atheists would not assert the non-existence of
God because (1) "God" is a vague concept with
multiple definitions, and (2) atheists don't claim to
know everything. Clear yet?
[. . .] is a belief not a proven fact. Your confidence
(or allegience) in this belief is as strong as my
confidence in mine.
Are you a mind reader? How do you know that
we even have the belief "there is no God", let
alone knowing how strong that belief is?
That confidence is faith. You are a person of
faith.
False. Re-read the above until a clue dawns.
You should listen to what atheists tell you, not
what ignorant preachers tell you about atheists.
What does it take to get this across to the apparently learning
disabled?
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, denigrating as
imbiciles in need of therapy all who disagree with their notions.
When in fact they are small, arrogant, in the box thinkers, who
BELIEVE what they understand at any given moment is the
ultimate truth. How do I know? I used to be one.
I don't believe that you used to be an atheist. First,
you show absolutely no understanding of how an
atheist thinks. Second, in being so slow on the
uptake, you appear just a little bit too stupid to
have ever been an atheist.
Chimp
.
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
20 Sep 2006 10:19:24 PM |
|
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Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
So then athiests do have at least one "attribute." So much for Mr.
Gray's assertion that "atheism is a LACK of an attribute."
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
As an atheist, I'm sure you're keenly aware of the supposed multiple
variations of atheism. Mr. Gray's posting history clearly indicates he
is among those who openly express their belief there is no God, at
least toward the Christian God.
Most atheists would not assert the non-existence of
God because (1) "God" is a vague concept with
multiple definitions, and (2) atheists don't claim to
know everything.
Most atheists? Do have a breakdown of those that don't assert it vs.
those who do?
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of dogmatic belief
to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
Clear yet?
Always has been. You?
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, denigrating as
imbiciles in need of therapy all who disagree with their notions.
When in fact they are small, arrogant, in the box thinkers, who
BELIEVE what they understand at any given moment is the
ultimate truth. How do I know? I used to be one.
I don't believe that you used to be an atheist. First,
you show absolutely no understanding of how an
atheist thinks. Second, in being so slow on the
uptake, you appear just a little bit too stupid to
have ever been an atheist.
Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about what you believe
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
|
| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
21 Sep 2006 02:42:45 AM |
|
|
On 20 Sep 2006 20:19:24 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1158808764.037051.163200@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
So then athiests do have at least one "attribute." So much for Mr.
Gray's assertion that "atheism is a LACK of an attribute."
You are a lying *****.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
As an atheist, I'm sure you're keenly aware of the supposed multiple
variations of atheism. Mr. Gray's posting history clearly indicates he
is among those who openly express their belief there is no God, at
least toward the Christian God.
Most atheists would not assert the non-existence of
God because (1) "God" is a vague concept with
multiple definitions, and (2) atheists don't claim to
know everything.
Most atheists? Do have a breakdown of those that don't assert it vs.
those who do?
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of dogmatic belief
to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
Clear yet?
Always has been. You?
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, denigrating as
imbiciles in need of therapy all who disagree with their notions.
When in fact they are small, arrogant, in the box thinkers, who
BELIEVE what they understand at any given moment is the
ultimate truth. How do I know? I used to be one.
I don't believe that you used to be an atheist. First,
you show absolutely no understanding of how an
atheist thinks. Second, in being so slow on the
uptake, you appear just a little bit too stupid to
have ever been an atheist.
Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about what you believe
.
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| User: "Chimp" |
|
| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
21 Sep 2006 03:21:50 AM |
|
|
Rick wrote:
Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
So then athiests do have at least one "attribute." So much for Mr.
Gray's assertion that "atheism is a LACK of an attribute."
Sure, atheists have the attribute of lacking the attribute
"believes in God". Mr Gray was correct.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
As an atheist, I'm sure you're keenly aware of the supposed
multiple variations of atheism.
Whereas you weren't. You stated "Atheism relies as much
on faith as any religion." That is false, it doesn't.
At root, atheism is just a lack of belief in God; that requires
no faith. You are right that some atheists do also hold
additional beliefs. But your statement was still false.
Mr. Gray's posting history clearly indicates he is among
those who openly express their belief there is no God, at
least toward the Christian God.
But your initial statement wasn't about Mr Gray in
particular, it was a general "Atheism relies as much
on faith as any religion". And you were wrong and
should accept the correction and stop wriggling.
Most atheists would not assert the non-existence of
God because (1) "God" is a vague concept with
multiple definitions, and (2) atheists don't claim to
know everything.
Most atheists? Do have a breakdown of those that don't
assert it vs. those who do?
Sure, experience on alt.atheism, for example,
overwhelmingly supports my claim.
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of
dogmatic belief to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
That is one site. One site does not refute my "most
atheists" claim.
Clear yet?
Always has been. You?
If you were always clear, why did you make the
false claim "Atheism relies as much on faith as
any religion"? That claim showed that you didn't
know what you were talking about.
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, denigrating as
imbiciles in need of therapy all who disagree with their notions.
When in fact they are small, arrogant, in the box thinkers, who
BELIEVE what they understand at any given moment is the
ultimate truth. How do I know? I used to be one.
I don't believe that you used to be an atheist. First,
you show absolutely no understanding of how an
atheist thinks. Second, in being so slow on the
uptake, you appear just a little bit too stupid to
have ever been an atheist.
Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about what you believe
You've made several posts about what atheists believe
and then claim you don't care what they believe. Your
claim is as false as your claim that you were once an
atheist and as false as your claim that "Atheism relies
as much on faith as any religion".
Chimp
.
|
|
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| User: "Rick" |
|
| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
23 Sep 2006 09:03:25 AM |
|
|
Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
So then athiests do have at least one "attribute." So much for Mr.
Gray's assertion that "atheism is a LACK of an attribute."
Sure, atheists have the attribute of lacking the attribute
"believes in God". Mr Gray was correct.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
As an atheist, I'm sure you're keenly aware of the supposed
multiple variations of atheism.
Whereas you weren't. You stated "Atheism relies as much
on faith as any religion." That is false, it doesn't.
At root, atheism is just a lack of belief in God; that requires
no faith. You are right that some atheists do also hold
additional beliefs. But your statement was still false.
Actually, I've been aware of the variations asserted by adherents of
Atheism for years. However, I've always proposed those who actively
maintain the position you hold are disingenuous or are simply fooling
themselves. You'll notice my use of the term "supposed" in my previous
post.
I disagree with the premise that anyone who has actively considered the
existence of God (or gods) and maintains a lack of belief in that
existence, can also maintain they don't believe God doesn't exist.
You claim that "Atheism is _lacking_ the belief that there is a God.
That is all."
From that premise it can be said that everyone is born an Atheist. In
fact, it can also be said the beasts of the earth are Atheists. It
takes zero intelligence to simply lack a belief.
I accept the premise that one who is unaware of the notion of God, or
has never thoughtfully considered whether God exists, can lack belief
in God and not also believe God doesn't exist.
But then folks in that category would also have never thoughtfully
considered whether they are Atheists and wouldn't profess themselves to
be adherents of Atheism.
Your claim that I "appear just a little bit too stupid to have ever
been an atheist" supports this through implication that one must have
logical capacity and have actively used it to profess themselves to be
an Atheist.
There is also the possibility that one who has thoughtfully considered
whether God exists can maintain a lack of belief in God's existence
because they are unsure of whether God exists or not - But they fit
into the Agnostic category, not Atheistic.
So, despite Mr. Gray's claim (and I assume yours as well) that Atheism
is "not anything active whatsoever", Atheists, such as yourself, have
actively studied the notion of God and the alternatives to all that God
implies (i.e. creation vs. evolution) and have logically determined
that at least one alternative is more believable than God.
I therefore maintain my belief that you, and other Atheists, do believe
that God does not exist, and that the alternative/s you have chosen are
unproven concepts that rely upon your confidence (faith) to believe.
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of
dogmatic belief to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
That is one site. One site does not refute my "most
atheists" claim.
First time I've heard an Atheist refer to O'Hair's American Atheist
organization (probably the largest Atheist group in the country, if not
the world) as just "one site."
Rick Smith
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
23 Sep 2006 09:31:07 AM |
|
|
On 23 Sep 2006 07:03:25 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Chimp wrote:
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
So then athiests do have at least one "attribute." So much for Mr.
Gray's assertion that "atheism is a LACK of an attribute."
Sure, atheists have the attribute of lacking the attribute
"believes in God". Mr Gray was correct.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
As an atheist, I'm sure you're keenly aware of the supposed
multiple variations of atheism.
Whereas you weren't. You stated "Atheism relies as much
on faith as any religion." That is false, it doesn't.
At root, atheism is just a lack of belief in God; that requires
no faith. You are right that some atheists do also hold
additional beliefs. But your statement was still false.
Actually, I've been aware of the variations asserted by adherents of
Atheism for years. However, I've always proposed those who actively
maintain the position you hold are disingenuous or are simply fooling
themselves. You'll notice my use of the term "supposed" in my previous
post.
That is just plain nasty. Because you are incapable of grasping that
they are describing themselves, and are genuine in this, you lie about
them.
I disagree with the premise that anyone who has actively considered the
existence of God (or gods) and maintains a lack of belief in that
existence, can also maintain they don't believe God doesn't exist.
You claim that "Atheism is _lacking_ the belief that there is a God.
That is all."
It is.
From that premise it can be said that everyone is born an Atheist. In
fact, it can also be said the beasts of the earth are Atheists. It
takes zero intelligence to simply lack a belief.
I accept the premise that one who is unaware of the notion of God, or
has never thoughtfully considered whether God exists, can lack belief
in God and not also believe God doesn't exist.
Why should anybody consider it? It's merely a belief that is part of
somebody else's religion.
But then folks in that category would also have never thoughtfully
considered whether they are Atheists and wouldn't profess themselves to
be adherents of Atheism.
Nobody is an "adherent of atheism". It's no different than not
believing in Santa Claus. And would be a non-event if so many
believers didn't try to impose their beliefs.
Your claim that I "appear just a little bit too stupid to have ever
been an atheist" supports this through implication that one must have
logical capacity and have actively used it to profess themselves to be
an Atheist.
There is also the possibility that one who has thoughtfully considered
whether God exists can maintain a lack of belief in God's existence
because they are unsure of whether God exists or not - But they fit
into the Agnostic category, not Atheistic.
*****. What is there to be unsure of, in the real world outside the
virtual reality of theistic religion?
So, despite Mr. Gray's claim (and I assume yours as well) that Atheism
is "not anything active whatsoever", Atheists, such as yourself, have
actively studied the notion of God and the alternatives to all that God
implies (i.e. creation vs. evolution) and have logically determined
that at least one alternative is more believable than God.
Is it really so hard to grasp that it's merely an abstract logic
exercise about something that has no relevance?
I therefore maintain my belief that you, and other Atheists, do believe
that God does not exist, and that the alternative/s you have chosen are
unproven concepts that rely upon your confidence (faith) to believe.
Standard slanders by a stupid theist who can't think outside the box.
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of
dogmatic belief to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
That is one site. One site does not refute my "most
atheists" claim.
First time I've heard an Atheist refer to O'Hair's American Atheist
organization (probably the largest Atheist group in the country, if not
the world) as just "one site."
Why do you pretend she speaks for all atheists, when the only thing
they have in common is that they're simply folk who aren't theist?
Even though you prefer to lie about us to our faces rather than grant
that.
Is it because she supports your bigoted and wilful ignorance?
Rick Smith
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| User: "Rick" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
24 Sep 2006 10:14:20 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 23 Sep 2006 07:03:25 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Actually, I've been aware of the variations asserted by adherents of
Atheism for years. However, I've always proposed those who actively
maintain the position you hold are disingenuous or are simply fooling
themselves. You'll notice my use of the term "supposed" in my previous
post.
That is just plain nasty. Because you are incapable of grasping that
they are describing themselves, and are genuine in this, you lie about
them.
I disagree with the premise that anyone who has actively considered the
existence of God (or gods) and maintains a lack of belief in that
existence, can also maintain they don't believe God doesn't exist.
You claim that "Atheism is _lacking_ the belief that there is a God.
That is all."
It is.
From that premise it can be said that everyone is born an Atheist. In
fact, it can also be said the beasts of the earth are Atheists. It
takes zero intelligence to simply lack a belief.
I accept the premise that one who is unaware of the notion of God, or
has never thoughtfully considered whether God exists, can lack belief
in God and not also believe God doesn't exist.
Why should anybody consider it? <snip>
Umm ..., probably because "it" has been at the forefront of human
discourse for over 3 millennia.
Now, tell us why you contemplate "it" ... and before you say "I don't,
liar" let's review some of your recent statements:
From this thread -
"What is there to be unsure of, in the real world outside the virtual
reality of theistic religion?" (How did you conclude the world of
theistic religion is merely virtual reality, and how did you become so
sure of it?)
"Is it really so hard to grasp that it's merely an abstract logic
exercise about something that has no relevance?" (How did you determine
God is irrelevant?)
Posted 9/24 (The Book of Genesis ...)
"It does, because to non-Christians it is set of fairy tales" (Upon
what do you base this conclusion?)
I could continue but there's no need, these statements sufficiently
prove that you have contemplated God.
Standard slanders by a stupid theist who can't think outside the box.
Ignorant vitriol from someone who apparently is unable to grasp what's
going on inside their own skull.
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of
dogmatic belief to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
That is one site. One site does not refute my "most
atheists" claim.
First time I've heard an Atheist refer to O'Hair's American Atheist
organization (probably the largest Atheist group in the country, if not
the world) as just "one site."
Why do you pretend she speaks for all atheists, when the only thing
they have in common is that they're simply folk who aren't theist?
I didn't, she's dead. Does she speak to you?
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
25 Sep 2006 01:05:22 AM |
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On 24 Sep 2006 20:14:20 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On 23 Sep 2006 07:03:25 -0700, "Rick" <slkslr@yahoo.com> wrote:
Actually, I've been aware of the variations asserted by adherents of
Atheism for years. However, I've always proposed those who actively
maintain the position you hold are disingenuous or are simply fooling
themselves. You'll notice my use of the term "supposed" in my previous
post.
That is just plain nasty. Because you are incapable of grasping that
they are describing themselves, and are genuine in this, you lie about
them.
I disagree with the premise that anyone who has actively considered the
existence of God (or gods) and maintains a lack of belief in that
existence, can also maintain they don't believe God doesn't exist.
You claim that "Atheism is _lacking_ the belief that there is a God.
That is all."
It is.
From that premise it can be said that everyone is born an Atheist. In
fact, it can also be said the beasts of the earth are Atheists. It
takes zero intelligence to simply lack a belief.
I accept the premise that one who is unaware of the notion of God, or
has never thoughtfully considered whether God exists, can lack belief
in God and not also believe God doesn't exist.
Why should anybody consider it? <snip>
Umm ..., probably because "it" has been at the forefront of human
discourse for over 3 millennia.
Only in the imagination of its believers.
Now, tell us why you contemplate "it" ... and before you say "I don't,
liar" let's review some of your recent statements:
From this thread -
"What is there to be unsure of, in the real world outside the virtual
reality of theistic religion?" (How did you conclude the world of
theistic religion is merely virtual reality, and how did you become so
sure of it?)
Here's a clue, brainwashed moron: it's part of the theist paradigm,
not the atheists's.
"Is it really so hard to grasp that it's merely an abstract logic
exercise about something that has no relevance?" (How did you determine
God is irrelevant?)
And it's the theist's presumption, not the atheist's.
Posted 9/24 (The Book of Genesis ...)
"It does, because to non-Christians it is set of fairy tales" (Upon
what do you base this conclusion?)
It's an observation, moron.
I could continue but there's no need, these statements sufficiently
prove that you have contemplated God.
Why do you lie, liar?
Standard slanders by a stupid theist who can't think outside the box.
Ignorant vitriol from someone who apparently is unable to grasp what's
going on inside their own skull.
Standard lie by a theist who can't grasp the real world outside its
religion.
This rundown from Murray O'Hair's site sure smacks of
dogmatic belief to me:
http://www.atheists.org/visitors.center/because.html
That is one site. One site does not refute my "most
atheists" claim.
First time I've heard an Atheist refer to O'Hair's American Atheist
organization (probably the largest Atheist group in the country, if not
the world) as just "one site."
Why do you pretend she speaks for all atheists, when the only thing
they have in common is that they're simply folk who aren't theist?
I didn't, she's dead. Does she speak to you?
Look up "non sequitur", brainwashed moron.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is America A 'Christian Nation'? Religion, Government And Individual Freedom |
20 Sep 2006 09:04:35 AM |
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On 20 Sep 2006 06:22:43 -0700, "Chimp" <pan_paniscus1859@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Rick wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
Once again, for the slow of learning: atheism is a LACK of an
attribute.
Assert: To state categorically; To declare or affirm formally as true.
Attribute: A construct whereby objects or individuals can be
distinguished
If atheists hold nothing as true, or have no characteristic which
distinguishes them from others, then what do they stand for? Why do
they expend so much effort debating ... nothing? Why do they exist?
We don't "debate nothing" - we have issues due to being a minority in
an increasingly religiously polarised country. The hypothetical deity
of somebody else's religion isn't an issue - but the behaviour of its
believers towards atheists is a biggy.
Easy, atheists are distinguished by _lacking_ a belief in God.
Just like non-smokers are distinguished by a lack of smoking.
Not a "faith", not a "belief", not anything active whatsoever.
The truth you hold, that there is no God, [. . .]
You've been told twice and you've not got it yet.
Let's try again. Atheism is not "holding the truth" that
"there is no God". Atheism is _lacking_ the belief
that there is a God. That is all.
Too many theists can't grasp this because they imagine their deity is
real, supremely important, supremely obvious etc and are incapable of
understanding that in the real world it's just "somebody's religious
belief". Instead they imagine that the whole world and everybody in
it, revolve around it.
Most atheists would not assert the non-existence of
God because (1) "God" is a vague concept with
multiple definitions, and (2) atheists don't claim to
know everything. Clear yet?
It's merely part of somebody else's religion.
[. . .] is a belief not a proven fact. Your confidence
(or allegience) in this belief is as strong as my
confidence in mine.
Are you a mind reader? How do you know that
we even have the belief "there is no God", let
alone knowing how strong that belief is?
Because his religion tells him. So it must be right and we're not
telling the truth about ourselves.
If I were to describe the most stupid, infuriating and nasty thing
believers do, it woud be this.
Instead of having the common sense and courtesy to understand that we
are real people explaing to him how our position isn't what he
describes, so many of them feel impelled to lecture us about what it
"really" is.
That confidence is faith. You are a person of
faith.
False. Re-read the above until a clue dawns.
You should listen to what atheists tell you, not
what ignorant preachers tell you about atheists.
He can't. He's theist.
What does it take to get this across to the apparently learning
disabled?
Yes, many atheists, such as yourself, hold themselves out as
enlightened - At the pinnacle of human knowledge, deni | | | | | | | | | | | | |
