| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
01 Sep 2005 02:03:25 PM |
| Object: |
Is Atheism a Religion? |
WHOSE FIRST AMENDMENT IS IT, ANYWAY?" CIRCUIT COURT RULES FOR PRISON
INMATE'S GROUP, ATHEISM A RELIGION
Web Posted: August 28, 2005
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm
***************************************************************
Is Atheism a Religion? by Mike Newdow
There is a diagram with the following article which is helpful in
understand his point so to see that
Go to
Restore our Pledge of Allegiance
http://www.restorethepledge.com/
On the sidebar on the left click on
FACTS Mike's Church
Welcome to the First Amendmist Church of True Science
FACTS
click on
Sermon #4 on February 20, 2003 - Is Atheism a Religion
Is Atheism a Religion?
by Mike Newdow
One of the issues that arises at times is the question of Atheism as a
religion. Many adamantly oppose that classification, arguing that Atheism
is an explicit denial of religion. Others claim Atheism should be
considered as a religion just like Christianity, Judaism, Islam and the
rest. Upon reflection, it would appear that the difficulty lies not in what
the various camps believe about Atheism, but in the definitions used when
referring to “religion.”
In the dictionary, the most common definition of religion is something
like, “the service and worship of God or the supernatural.” By this
definition, Atheism is clearly not a religion. However, the United States
Supreme Court has repeatedly stated that Atheism warrants the same
protection as all other religions, and has spoken of “religions based on a
belief in the existence of God [and] religions founded on different
beliefs." This, obviously, contradicts the main dictionary definition.
Additionally, there is “religion” as a sense of morality, as in “ree has
religion.” This is similar to the use of the adjective form of the word:
religious. If someone is described as “religious,” one usually thinks of
erm as a person who goes to church to worship some almighty power. But
“religious” also has the definition of “passionate” or “zealous,” and
“scrupulous,” as well. This variability in definitions is the problem in
the “Is Atheism a religion?” question.
To clarify this issue, these three different definitions must be carefully
kept in mind as the matter is discussed, since any lack of rigor in
maintaining them as separate entities will lead to confusion and
disagreement. Additionally, under the American Constitution, failing to
strictly segregate these definitions may result in the loss of basic legal
protections. Finally, if ending the prejudices that exist against Atheists
is a goal, the sliding between definitions (which occurs quite often) must
be avoided.
As just recognized, Atheism is obviously not a religion under Definition
#1 (“D1”), i.e., where “religion” requires worship of God. Thus, those who
wish to specifically highlight the fact that they place no credence in
unproven notions of supernatural forces are somewhat offended – and
rightfully so – when others classify them as “religious” under this
definition. “Atheism is not a religion, and we are not religious!” they
emphasize. But that sets them up for denigration, as D3 is unwittingly
brought in by those raised to believe that Atheists are “bad.” “Look – they
have no religion.” (D1). So they’re clearly evil (since “they have no
religion.” (D3)).” This is a very real problem, often exacerbated by the
“morality comes from God” dogma of many Monotheists. It’s bad enough that
those people think that theirs is the only plausible view. When the
Atheists admit they have no religion (D3), it makes it worse.
Of course, Atheists are not admitting they have no D3-religion. On the
contrary, Atheists – like (all) “religious” individuals – believe their
morality is superior. In the Atheist’s view, they have the “truth” that the
D1-religious lack. But by using the same word, “religion,” to represent
these two very different ideas – i.e., morality as opposed to belief in God
– the debate goes nowhere.
The same confusion arises in the legal context. This was readily seen
during the oral argument in Locke v. Davey, the Supreme Court case heard in
the Court’s 2003-2004 term. That case involved the State of Washington’s
decision to prohibit disbursement of state scholarship moneys to students
who choose theology majors, while funding everyone else. The Court seemed
to struggle with the fact that it has already decided that the government
is forbidden from treating people differently on the basis of religion …
including religion versus non-religion. The problem is that the “religion
versus non-religion” distinction is prohibited only in D1-religion. In
D2-religion, the exact opposite is the case; government is required to
discriminate between religion and non-religion.
D2-religion is that realm of opinion and knowledge that has to do with
D1-religion, regardless of whether or not there is a belief in some deity.
In other words, anything that has to do with basic questions of human
relations, the meaning of life, the beginning of the universe, etc. – when
related to the concept of some higher power (whether or not that higher
power is believed in) – is D2-religion. And this entire subject is what the
United States Constitution sets apart in its First Amendment. Thus, whereas
James Madison successfully blocked Patrick Henry’s Bill for Establishing a
Provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion, he wouldn’t have blocked
a Bill for Establishing a Provision for Teachers of Mathematics, of Art
History, of Geology or of any other non-“religious” topic.
This may be elucidated best with set theory. There is the big set - all
human opinion and knowledge. Within that, there is a subset of opinion and
knowledge that is related to the supernatural … whether it is believed or
not. This subset (D2-religion) is what the Religion Clauses require the
government to treat differently from all other opinion and knowledge
matters. However, within that subset are sub-subsets, including the one
that accepts the existence of an “Almighty” (D1-religion), and the one that
denies such an entity. It is the differential treatment (by government) of
those sub-subsets that the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses forbid.
Thus, Locke v. Davey is really an easy case. Treating theology majors
differently from non-theology majors is precisely what the First Amendment
presupposes, just as Madison treated Teachers of the Christian Religion in
a manner unlike teachers of any non-D2-religion subject. Washington State
may not give money to majors in Atheism while denying money to majors in
Monotheism. That would be a D1-religion problem, where government is
prohibited from making distinctions. But Washington not only can – but must
(under the Federal Constitution) – discriminate in terms of D2-religion.
In summary, then, if one is asking if Atheists believe in supernatural
powers, the answer is, “No – Atheism is not a D1-religion.” If one is
asking if Atheists should be protected by the Constitution, the answer is,
“Yes, Atheism is a D2-religion.” And if one is asking whether Atheists can
be moral, the answer will depend upon the participants’ D1-religious views.
If an individual contends that belief in God is a requirement for a person
to have D3-religion, the answer will be “no.” If that person accepts that
morality is a human quality, that needs no supernatural approval, the
answer is “yes.”
*********************************************************************
:| EQUAL TIME FOR NEWDOW
:|
:|
* DR. MICHAEL NEWDOW writes:
"I think that the decision was 100% correct, and I fear that the
response of those who try to assert that Atheism is not a religion can only backfire.
I don't understand the purpose of taking that view.
"The Constitution treats religious belief different than other types of
belief. By claiming they don't adhere to a religion -- for
constitutional purposes -- they are essentially acknowledging that they
are to be excluded from the protections given to individuals for
their religious (as opposed to all other) opinion.
**********************************************************************************
Additional food for thought
IDLEMANBOOK 3/18/2005 7:43 PM
THE CONCEALMENT OF RELIGIOUS VALUES
IN JUDICIAL DECISIONMAKING
Scott C. Idleman*
http://www.virginialawreview.org/content/pdfs/91/515.pdf
16 See Bd. of Educ. v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687, 696 (1994) ("‘A proper respect
for both the Free Exercise and the Establishment Clauses compels the State
to pursue a course of "neutrality" toward religion,' favoring neither one
religion over others nor religious adherents collectively over
nonadherents." (quoting Comm. for Pub. Educ. & Religious Liberty v.
Nyquist, 413 U.S. 756, 792–93 (1973))). 17 See id. at 703 (invalidating a
special legislative act in part because "[t]he anomalously case-specific
nature of the legislature's exercise of state authority . . . leaves the
Court without any direct way to review such state action for the purpose of
safeguarding a principle at the heart of the Establishment Clause, that
government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to
irreligion").
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
THOMAS VAN ORDEN, PETITIONER v. RICK PERRY, in his official capacity as
GOVERNOR OF TEXAS and CHAIRMAN, STATE PRESERVATION
BOARD, et al.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=03-1500
on writ of certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the fifth
circuit
[June 27, 2005]
Justice Stevens, with whom Justice Ginsburg joins, dissenting.
("The simultaneous endorsement of Judaism and Christianity is no less
constitutionally infirm than the endorsement of Christianity alone"). And,
at the very least, the text of the Ten Commandments impermissibly commands
a preference for religion over irreligion. See, e.g., id., at 590 (The
Establishment Clause "guarantee[s] religious liberty and equality to the
'infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as
Islam or Judaism' " (quoting Wallace, 472 U. S., at 52)). Any of those
bases, in my judgment, would be sufficient to conclude that the message
should not be proclaimed by the State of Texas on a permanent monument at
the seat of its government.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=98-1648
GUY MITCHELL, et al., PETITIONERS v. MARY L. HELMS et al.
on writ of certiorari to the united states court of
appeals for the fifth circuit
[June 28, 2000]
Justice Souter, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg join,
dissenting.
The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits Congress (and, by
incorporation, the States) from making any law respecting an establishment
of religion. It has been held to prohibit not only the institution of an
official church, but any government act favoring religion, a particular
religion, or for that matter irreligion. Thus it bars the use of public
funds for religious aid.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=15012
Clement replied that states already accommodate mainstream religions.
RLUIPA, he said, merely extends that accommodation to minority religions.
"If there is any incentive, it is for religion over irreligion."
Chief Justice William Rehnquist, on the bench for the first time in five
months, asked Clement, "Haven't we said you can't favor religion over
irreligion?"
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://www.ffrf.org/news/2005/10comm.php
Scalia (Kentucky dissent):
"And of course the First Amendment itself accords religion (and no other
manner of belief) special constitutional protection."
"[It is a] demonstrably false principle that the government cannot favor
religion over irreligion."
"With respect to public acknowledgment of religious belief, it is entirely
clear from our Nation's historical practices that the Establishment Clause
permits this disregard of polytheists and believers in unconcerned deities,
just as it permits the disregard of devout atheists."
"[The majority opinion] rachets up the Court's hostility to religion."
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/freefrom.htm
The day that this country ceases to be free for irreligion, it will
cease to be free for religion-- except for the sect that can win political
power. The same epithetical jurisprudence used by the Court today to beat
down those who oppose pressuring children into some religion can devise as
good epithets tomorrow against those who object to pressuring them into a
favored religion. And, after all, if we concede to the State power and
wisdom to single out "duly constituted religious" bodies as exclusive
alternatives for compulsory secular instruction, it would be logical to
also uphold the power and wisdom to choose the true faith among those "duly
constituted." We start down a rough road when we begin to mix compulsory
public education with compulsory godliness.
Jackson, J., Dissenting Opinion Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some have challenged this precedent by reading the Establishment
Clause to permit "nonpreferential" state promotion of religion. The
challengers argue that, as originally understood by the Framers, "[t]he
Establishment Clause did not require government neutrality between religion
and irreligion, nor did it prohibit the Federal Government from providing
nondiscriminatory aid to religion." Wallace, supra, at 106 (Rehnquist, J.,
dissenting); see also R. Cord, Separation of Church and State: Historical
Fact and Current Fiction (1988). While a case has been made for this
position, it is not so convincing as to warrant reconsideration of our
settled law; indeed, I find in the history of the Clause's textual
development a more powerful argument supporting the Court's jurisprudence
following Everson.
Justice Blackmun, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice O'Connor join,
concurring.
Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 (1992)
------------------------------------------------
The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits Congress (and, by
incorporation, the States) from making any law respecting an establishment
of religion. It has been held to prohibit not only the institution of an
official church, but any government act favoring religion, a particular
religion, or for that matter irreligion. Thus it bars the use of public
funds for religious aid.
[omission]
And if this were not enough to prove that no aid in religious school
aid is dead under the plurality's First Amendment, the point is nailed down
in the plurality's attack on the legitimacy of considering a school's
pervasively sectarian character when judging whether aid to the school is
likely to aid its religious mission. Ante, at 27-31. The relevance of this
consideration is simply a matter of common sense: where religious
indoctrination pervades school activities of children and adolescents, it
takes great care to be able to aid the school without supporting the
doctrinal effort. This is obvious. The plurality nonetheless condemns any
enquiry into the pervasiveness of doctrinal content as a remnant of
anti-Catholic bigotry (as if evangelical Protestant schools and Orthodox
Jewish yeshivas were never pervasively sectarian [29] ), and it equates a
refusal to aid religious schools with hostility to religion (as if aid to
religious teaching were not opposed in this very case by at least one
religious respondent [30] and numerous religious amici curiae [31] in a
tradition claiming descent from Roger Williams). My concern with these
arguments goes not so much to their details [32] as it does to the fact
that the plurality's choice to employ imputations of bigotry and irreligion
as terms in the Court's debate makes one point clear: that in rejecting the
principle of no aid to a school's religious mission the plurality is
attacking the most fundamental assumption underlying the Establishment
Clause, that government can in fact operate with neutrality in its relation
to religion. I believe that it can, and so respectfully dissent.
Footnote 29
Indeed, one group of amici curiae, which consists of "religious and
educational leaders from a broad range of both Eastern and Western
religious traditions, and Methodist, Jewish and Seventh-day Adventist
individuals" including "church administrators, administrators of religious
elementary and secondary school systems; elementary and secondary school
teachers at religious schools; and pastors and laity who serve on church
school boards," identifies its members as having "broad experience teaching
in and administering pervasively sectarian schools." Brief for Interfaith
Religious Liberty Foundation et al. as Amici Curiae 1.
Footnote 30
One of the respondents describes herself as a "life-long, committed
member of the Roman Catholic Church" who "objects to the government
providing benefits to her parish school" because "[s]he has seen the
chilling effect such entangling government aid has on the religious mission
of schools run by her church." Brief for Respondents 1. She has been a
member of the church for about 36 years, and six of her children attended
different Jefferson Parish Catholic run schools. Id., at 1, n. 1.
Footnote 31
E.g., Brief for Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs as Amicus
Curiae; Brief for Interfaith Religious Liberty Foundation et al. as Amici
Curiae; Brief for National Committee for Public Education et al. as Amici
Curiae.
Footnote 32
I do not think it worthwhile to comment at length, for example, on the
plurality's clear misunderstanding of our access-to-public-forum cases,
such as Lamb's Chapel and Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U. S. 263 (1981), as
"decisions that have prohibited governments from discriminating in the
distribution of public benefits based on religious status or sincerity,"
ante, at 30, when they were decided on completely different and narrowly
limited free-speech grounds. Nor would it be worthwhile here to engage in
extended discussion of why the goal of preventing courts from having to
"trol[l] through a person's or institution's religious beliefs," ante, at
30, calls for less aid and commingling of government with religion, not for
tolerance of their effects.
Justice Souter, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg join,
dissenting.
Mitchell, v. Helms [June 28, 2000]
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment
(For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School
District v. Grumet, Justice David Souter concluded that "government should
not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."). Critics
of this interpretation argue that it effectively changes the Constitution
in a way never contemplated by the founders. However, this is a
controversial and evolving area of
.
|
|
| User: "Holliston Perni" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 07:55:50 AM |
|
|
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Hollis,
http://www.AmericanJunta.com
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:i3keh1hb54v5bivem8nis6655ipnobdvpk@4ax.com...
WHOSE FIRST AMENDMENT IS IT, ANYWAY?" CIRCUIT COURT RULES FOR PRISON
INMATE'S GROUP, ATHEISM A RELIGION
Web Posted: August 28, 2005
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/court36.htm
***************************************************************
Is Atheism a Religion? by Mike Newdow
There is a diagram with the following article which is helpful in
understand his point so to see that
Go to
Restore our Pledge of Allegiance
http://www.restorethepledge.com/
On the sidebar on the left click on
FACTS Mike's Church
Welcome to the First Amendmist Church of True Science
FACTS
click on
Sermon #4 on February 20, 2003 - Is Atheism a Religion
Is Atheism a Religion?
by Mike Newdow
One of the issues that arises at times is the question of Atheism as a
religion. Many adamantly oppose that classification, arguing that Atheism
is an explicit denial of religion. Others claim Atheism should be
considered as a religion just like Christianity, Judaism, Islam and the
rest. Upon reflection, it would appear that the difficulty lies not in
what
the various camps believe about Atheism, but in the definitions used when
referring to "religion."
In the dictionary, the most common definition of religion is something
like, "the service and worship of God or the supernatural." By this
definition, Atheism is clearly not a religion. However, the United States
Supreme Court has repeatedly stated that Atheism warrants the same
protection as all other religions, and has spoken of "religions based on a
belief in the existence of God [and] religions founded on different
beliefs." This, obviously, contradicts the main dictionary definition.
Additionally, there is "religion" as a sense of morality, as in "ree has
religion." This is similar to the use of the adjective form of the word:
religious. If someone is described as "religious," one usually thinks of
erm as a person who goes to church to worship some almighty power. But
"religious" also has the definition of "passionate" or "zealous," and
"scrupulous," as well. This variability in definitions is the problem in
the "Is Atheism a religion?" question.
To clarify this issue, these three different definitions must be carefully
kept in mind as the matter is discussed, since any lack of rigor in
maintaining them as separate entities will lead to confusion and
disagreement. Additionally, under the American Constitution, failing to
strictly segregate these definitions may result in the loss of basic legal
protections. Finally, if ending the prejudices that exist against Atheists
is a goal, the sliding between definitions (which occurs quite often) must
be avoided.
As just recognized, Atheism is obviously not a religion under Definition
#1 ("D1"), i.e., where "religion" requires worship of God. Thus, those who
wish to specifically highlight the fact that they place no credence in
unproven notions of supernatural forces are somewhat offended - and
rightfully so - when others classify them as "religious" under this
definition. "Atheism is not a religion, and we are not religious!" they
emphasize. But that sets them up for denigration, as D3 is unwittingly
brought in by those raised to believe that Atheists are "bad." "Look -
they
have no religion." (D1). So they're clearly evil (since "they have no
religion." (D3))." This is a very real problem, often exacerbated by the
"morality comes from God" dogma of many Monotheists. It's bad enough that
those people think that theirs is the only plausible view. When the
Atheists admit they have no religion (D3), it makes it worse.
Of course, Atheists are not admitting they have no D3-religion. On the
contrary, Atheists - like (all) "religious" individuals - believe their
morality is superior. In the Atheist's view, they have the "truth" that
the
D1-religious lack. But by using the same word, "religion," to represent
these two very different ideas - i.e., morality as opposed to belief in
God
- the debate goes nowhere.
The same confusion arises in the legal context. This was readily seen
during the oral argument in Locke v. Davey, the Supreme Court case heard
in
the Court's 2003-2004 term. That case involved the State of Washington's
decision to prohibit disbursement of state scholarship moneys to students
who choose theology majors, while funding everyone else. The Court seemed
to struggle with the fact that it has already decided that the government
is forbidden from treating people differently on the basis of religion .
including religion versus non-religion. The problem is that the "religion
versus non-religion" distinction is prohibited only in D1-religion. In
D2-religion, the exact opposite is the case; government is required to
discriminate between religion and non-religion.
D2-religion is that realm of opinion and knowledge that has to do with
D1-religion, regardless of whether or not there is a belief in some deity.
In other words, anything that has to do with basic questions of human
relations, the meaning of life, the beginning of the universe, etc. - when
related to the concept of some higher power (whether or not that higher
power is believed in) - is D2-religion. And this entire subject is what
the
United States Constitution sets apart in its First Amendment. Thus,
whereas
James Madison successfully blocked Patrick Henry's Bill for Establishing a
Provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion, he wouldn't have blocked
a Bill for Establishing a Provision for Teachers of Mathematics, of Art
History, of Geology or of any other non-"religious" topic.
This may be elucidated best with set theory. There is the big set - all
human opinion and knowledge. Within that, there is a subset of opinion and
knowledge that is related to the supernatural . whether it is believed or
not. This subset (D2-religion) is what the Religion Clauses require the
government to treat differently from all other opinion and knowledge
matters. However, within that subset are sub-subsets, including the one
that accepts the existence of an "Almighty" (D1-religion), and the one
that
denies such an entity. It is the differential treatment (by government) of
those sub-subsets that the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses forbid.
Thus, Locke v. Davey is really an easy case. Treating theology majors
differently from non-theology majors is precisely what the First Amendment
presupposes, just as Madison treated Teachers of the Christian Religion in
a manner unlike teachers of any non-D2-religion subject. Washington State
may not give money to majors in Atheism while denying money to majors in
Monotheism. That would be a D1-religion problem, where government is
prohibited from making distinctions. But Washington not only can - but
must
(under the Federal Constitution) - discriminate in terms of D2-religion.
In summary, then, if one is asking if Atheists believe in supernatural
powers, the answer is, "No - Atheism is not a D1-religion." If one is
asking if Atheists should be protected by the Constitution, the answer is,
"Yes, Atheism is a D2-religion." And if one is asking whether Atheists can
be moral, the answer will depend upon the participants' D1-religious
views.
If an individual contends that belief in God is a requirement for a person
to have D3-religion, the answer will be "no." If that person accepts that
morality is a human quality, that needs no supernatural approval, the
answer is "yes."
*********************************************************************
:| EQUAL TIME FOR NEWDOW
:|
:|
* DR. MICHAEL NEWDOW writes:
"I think that the decision was 100% correct, and I fear that the
response of those who try to assert that Atheism is not a religion can
only backfire.
I don't understand the purpose of taking that view.
"The Constitution treats religious belief different than other types of
belief. By claiming they don't adhere to a religion -- for
constitutional purposes -- they are essentially acknowledging that they
are to be excluded from the protections given to individuals for
their religious (as opposed to all other) opinion.
**********************************************************************************
Additional food for thought
IDLEMANBOOK 3/18/2005 7:43 PM
THE CONCEALMENT OF RELIGIOUS VALUES
IN JUDICIAL DECISIONMAKING
Scott C. Idleman*
http://www.virginialawreview.org/content/pdfs/91/515.pdf
16 See Bd. of Educ. v. Grumet, 512 U.S. 687, 696 (1994) ("'A proper
respect
for both the Free Exercise and the Establishment Clauses compels the State
to pursue a course of "neutrality" toward religion,' favoring neither one
religion over others nor religious adherents collectively over
nonadherents." (quoting Comm. for Pub. Educ. & Religious Liberty v.
Nyquist, 413 U.S. 756, 792-93 (1973))). 17 See id. at 703 (invalidating a
special legislative act in part because "[t]he anomalously case-specific
nature of the legislature's exercise of state authority . . . leaves the
Court without any direct way to review such state action for the purpose
of
safeguarding a principle at the heart of the Establishment Clause, that
government should not prefer one religion to another, or religion to
irreligion").
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
THOMAS VAN ORDEN, PETITIONER v. RICK PERRY, in his official capacity as
GOVERNOR OF TEXAS and CHAIRMAN, STATE PRESERVATION
BOARD, et al.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=03-1500
on writ of certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the fifth
circuit
[June 27, 2005]
Justice Stevens, with whom Justice Ginsburg joins, dissenting.
("The simultaneous endorsement of Judaism and Christianity is no less
constitutionally infirm than the endorsement of Christianity alone"). And,
at the very least, the text of the Ten Commandments impermissibly commands
a preference for religion over irreligion. See, e.g., id., at 590 (The
Establishment Clause "guarantee[s] religious liberty and equality to the
'infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as
Islam or Judaism' " (quoting Wallace, 472 U. S., at 52)). Any of those
bases, in my judgment, would be sufficient to conclude that the message
should not be proclaimed by the State of Texas on a permanent monument at
the seat of its government.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=98-1648
GUY MITCHELL, et al., PETITIONERS v. MARY L. HELMS et al.
on writ of certiorari to the united states court of
appeals for the fifth circuit
[June 28, 2000]
Justice Souter, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg join,
dissenting.
The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits Congress (and, by
incorporation, the States) from making any law respecting an establishment
of religion. It has been held to prohibit not only the institution of an
official church, but any government act favoring religion, a particular
religion, or for that matter irreligion. Thus it bars the use of public
funds for religious aid.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=15012
Clement replied that states already accommodate mainstream religions.
RLUIPA, he said, merely extends that accommodation to minority religions.
"If there is any incentive, it is for religion over irreligion."
Chief Justice William Rehnquist, on the bench for the first time in five
months, asked Clement, "Haven't we said you can't favor religion over
irreligion?"
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://www.ffrf.org/news/2005/10comm.php
Scalia (Kentucky dissent):
"And of course the First Amendment itself accords religion (and no other
manner of belief) special constitutional protection."
"[It is a] demonstrably false principle that the government cannot favor
religion over irreligion."
"With respect to public acknowledgment of religious belief, it is entirely
clear from our Nation's historical practices that the Establishment Clause
permits this disregard of polytheists and believers in unconcerned
deities,
just as it permits the disregard of devout atheists."
"[The majority opinion] rachets up the Court's hostility to religion."
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/freefrom.htm
The day that this country ceases to be free for irreligion, it will
cease to be free for religion-- except for the sect that can win political
power. The same epithetical jurisprudence used by the Court today to beat
down those who oppose pressuring children into some religion can devise as
good epithets tomorrow against those who object to pressuring them into a
favored religion. And, after all, if we concede to the State power and
wisdom to single out "duly constituted religious" bodies as exclusive
alternatives for compulsory secular instruction, it would be logical to
also uphold the power and wisdom to choose the true faith among those
"duly
constituted." We start down a rough road when we begin to mix compulsory
public education with compulsory godliness.
Jackson, J., Dissenting Opinion Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some have challenged this precedent by reading the Establishment
Clause to permit "nonpreferential" state promotion of religion. The
challengers argue that, as originally understood by the Framers, "[t]he
Establishment Clause did not require government neutrality between
religion
and irreligion, nor did it prohibit the Federal Government from providing
nondiscriminatory aid to religion." Wallace, supra, at 106 (Rehnquist, J.,
dissenting); see also R. Cord, Separation of Church and State: Historical
Fact and Current Fiction (1988). While a case has been made for this
position, it is not so convincing as to warrant reconsideration of our
settled law; indeed, I find in the history of the Clause's textual
development a more powerful argument supporting the Court's jurisprudence
following Everson.
Justice Blackmun, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice O'Connor join,
concurring.
Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 (1992)
------------------------------------------------
The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits Congress (and, by
incorporation, the States) from making any law respecting an establishment
of religion. It has been held to prohibit not only the institution of an
official church, but any government act favoring religion, a particular
religion, or for that matter irreligion. Thus it bars the use of public
funds for religious aid.
[omission]
And if this were not enough to prove that no aid in religious school
aid is dead under the plurality's First Amendment, the point is nailed
down
in the plurality's attack on the legitimacy of considering a school's
pervasively sectarian character when judging whether aid to the school is
likely to aid its religious mission. Ante, at 27-31. The relevance of this
consideration is simply a matter of common sense: where religious
indoctrination pervades school activities of children and adolescents, it
takes great care to be able to aid the school without supporting the
doctrinal effort. This is obvious. The plurality nonetheless condemns any
enquiry into the pervasiveness of doctrinal content as a remnant of
anti-Catholic bigotry (as if evangelical Protestant schools and Orthodox
Jewish yeshivas were never pervasively sectarian [29] ), and it equates a
refusal to aid religious schools with hostility to religion (as if aid to
religious teaching were not opposed in this very case by at least one
religious respondent [30] and numerous religious amici curiae [31] in a
tradition claiming descent from Roger Williams). My concern with these
arguments goes not so much to their details [32] as it does to the fact
that the plurality's choice to employ imputations of bigotry and
irreligion
as terms in the Court's debate makes one point clear: that in rejecting
the
principle of no aid to a school's religious mission the plurality is
attacking the most fundamental assumption underlying the Establishment
Clause, that government can in fact operate with neutrality in its
relation
to religion. I believe that it can, and so respectfully dissent.
Footnote 29
Indeed, one group of amici curiae, which consists of "religious and
educational leaders from a broad range of both Eastern and Western
religious traditions, and Methodist, Jewish and Seventh-day Adventist
individuals" including "church administrators, administrators of religious
elementary and secondary school systems; elementary and secondary school
teachers at religious schools; and pastors and laity who serve on church
school boards," identifies its members as having "broad experience
teaching
in and administering pervasively sectarian schools." Brief for Interfaith
Religious Liberty Foundation et al. as Amici Curiae 1.
Footnote 30
One of the respondents describes herself as a "life-long, committed
member of the Roman Catholic Church" who "objects to the government
providing benefits to her parish school" because "[s]he has seen the
chilling effect such entangling government aid has on the religious
mission
of schools run by her church." Brief for Respondents 1. She has been a
member of the church for about 36 years, and six of her children attended
different Jefferson Parish Catholic run schools. Id., at 1, n. 1.
Footnote 31
E.g., Brief for Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs as Amicus
Curiae; Brief for Interfaith Religious Liberty Foundation et al. as Amici
Curiae; Brief for National Committee for Public Education et al. as Amici
Curiae.
Footnote 32
I do not think it worthwhile to comment at length, for example, on the
plurality's clear misunderstanding of our access-to-public-forum cases,
such as Lamb's Chapel and Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U. S. 263 (1981), as
"decisions that have prohibited governments from discriminating in the
distribution of public benefits based on religious status or sincerity,"
ante, at 30, when they were decided on completely different and narrowly
limited free-speech grounds. Nor would it be worthwhile here to engage in
extended discussion of why the goal of preventing courts from having to
"trol[l] through a person's or institution's religious beliefs," ante, at
30, calls for less aid and commingling of government with religion, not
for
tolerance of their effects.
Justice Souter, with whom Justice Stevens and Justice Ginsburg join,
dissenting.
Mitchell, v. Helms [June 28, 2000]
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment
(For example, in the Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School
District v. Grumet, Justice David Souter concluded that "government should
not prefer one religion to another, or religion to irreligion."). Critics
of this interpretation argue that it effectively changes the Constitution
in a way never contemplated by the founders. However, this is a
controversial and evolving area of
--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
.
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
04 Sep 2005 08:37:54 AM |
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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Probability never enters into it.
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
Mark.
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| User: "Kelo Disaster" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
04 Sep 2005 02:27:16 PM |
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"Mark Richardson" <spam2oblivion@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:m0ulh15fbrii4a93mcih50qtje37iudae4@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Probability never enters into it.
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Mark.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 12:52:49 AM |
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A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
A belief system doesn't have to contain more than one belief? If that's
what you're trying to say, you're simply wrong. A system inherently has
more than one component. 'Atheism' describes a lack of a particular
component.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Isn't it great when the ignorant try to teach us about ourselves?
We do not have an altar. Altars are designed for religious purposes
(often sacrifice). Since we don't have any religious practices (and for
most of us, religion either), it would be most silly to have an altar.
(If you were trying to refer to a figurative altar, you'll have to
forgive me for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.)
Furthermore, since atheism is simply one aspect of a worldview, we
don't really have sects. To have a sect you need religious beliefs in
the first place, and atheism doesn't qualify. It is a lack of a
specific type of religious belief, but is no more religious than my
assertion that Raelian doctrine is *****.
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| User: "Kelo Disaster" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 07:14:11 AM |
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"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125985969.495205.185890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
A belief system doesn't have to contain more than one belief? If that's
what you're trying to say, you're simply wrong. A system inherently has
more than one component. 'Atheism' describes a lack of a particular
component.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Isn't it great when the ignorant try to teach us about ourselves?
Yes, it's called "public schools".
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| User: "1888 Dead" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 08:20:20 AM |
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On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 07:14:11 -0500, "Kelo Disaster" <living@ussa.com>
wrote:
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125985969.495205.185890@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
A belief system doesn't have to contain more than one belief? If that's
what you're trying to say, you're simply wrong. A system inherently has
more than one component. 'Atheism' describes a lack of a particular
component.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Isn't it great when the ignorant try to teach us about ourselves?
Yes, it's called "public schools".
And you were educated how, exactly?
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
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| User: "CPTFreedm" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Feb 2006 03:17:01 PM |
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Chris Johnson wrote:
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
A belief system doesn't have to contain more than one belief? If that's
what you're trying to say, you're simply wrong. A system inherently has
more than one component. 'Atheism' describes a lack of a particular
component.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Isn't it great when the ignorant try to teach us about ourselves?
We do not have an altar. Altars are designed for religious purposes
(often sacrifice). Since we don't have any religious practices (and for
most of us, religion either), it would be most silly to have an altar.
(If you were trying to refer to a figurative altar, you'll have to
forgive me for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.)
Furthermore, since atheism is simply one aspect of a worldview, we
don't really have sects. To have a sect you need religious beliefs in
the first place, and atheism doesn't qualify. It is a lack of a
specific type of religious belief, but is no more religious than my
assertion that Raelian doctrine is *****.
Isn't it it great when the ignorant consider casting aspersions on
others to be a "position" on any certain topic?
CPT
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Feb 2006 03:48:01 PM |
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CPTFreedm wrote:
Chris Johnson wrote:
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
A belief system doesn't have to contain more than one belief? If that's
what you're trying to say, you're simply wrong. A system inherently has
more than one component. 'Atheism' describes a lack of a particular
component.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Isn't it great when the ignorant try to teach us about ourselves?
We do not have an altar. Altars are designed for religious purposes
(often sacrifice). Since we don't have any religious practices (and for
most of us, religion either), it would be most silly to have an altar.
(If you were trying to refer to a figurative altar, you'll have to
forgive me for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.)
Furthermore, since atheism is simply one aspect of a worldview, we
don't really have sects. To have a sect you need religious beliefs in
the first place, and atheism doesn't qualify. It is a lack of a
specific type of religious belief, but is no more religious than my
assertion that Raelian doctrine is *****.
Isn't it it great when the ignorant consider casting aspersions on
others to be a "position" on any certain topic?
Wowza. You went back quite a ways to make this post.
And let me rephrase: "Atheism is no more a religious belief than
failing to believe in unicorns." It was a poor choice of words.
I assume that you were refering to my calling Raelian doctrine
*****? If not, I'd be curious what aspersions I cast.
.
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| User: "IKnowHimDoYou- A." |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
03 Feb 2006 10:09:53 AM |
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In article <hFuEf.4424$5E3.2297@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
CPTFreedm <amfree@earthlink.net> wrote:
Chris Johnson wrote:
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
But a belief system doesn't...Einstein.
A belief system doesn't have to contain more than one belief? If that's
what you're trying to say, you're simply wrong. A system inherently has
more than one component. 'Atheism' describes a lack of a particular
component.
In any case, there are *many* sects under the altar of Atheism.
Isn't it great when the ignorant try to teach us about ourselves?
We do not have an altar. Altars are designed for religious purposes
(often sacrifice). Since we don't have any religious practices (and for
most of us, religion either), it would be most silly to have an altar.
(If you were trying to refer to a figurative altar, you'll have to
forgive me for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.)
Furthermore, since atheism is simply one aspect of a worldview, we
don't really have sects. To have a sect you need religious beliefs in
the first place, and atheism doesn't qualify. It is a lack of a
specific type of religious belief, but is no more religious than my
assertion that Raelian doctrine is *****.
Isn't it it great when the ignorant consider casting aspersions on
others to be a "position" on any certain topic?
CPT
_________________________________________________________________
"Professing themselvs to be wise, they become fools...Rom 1:22
And when they attempt to write they assure everyone they are indeed fools...
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| User: "Hagar" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
03 Feb 2006 05:21:03 PM |
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"IKnowHimDoYou- A." <IKnowHim@leavingsoon.com> wrote in message
news:IKnowHim-0302060809530001@pm3-48.kalama.com...
In article <hFuEf.4424$5E3.2297@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
CPTFreedm <amfree@earthlink.net> wrote:
Chris Johnson wrote:
A"system" of beliefs has to contain more than one belief - so your
statement is obviously FALSE.
You dumb Xtian idiots.
Since when is Not collecting stamps considered a hobby ??
Since when does Not reading a book mean the person is illiterate ??
We Atheists DO NOT BELIEVE in GAWD, nor JEBUS .... and that makes us a
religion ??? You guys are beyond brainwashed, with this holy trinity
*****, angels and miracles and going to heaven, get a grip on reality.
Lunatics, all of you.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 12:51:10 PM |
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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
A system of beliefs has to involve belief in some kind of diety or
creator if it is to be regarded as a religious belief of course and
not just a belief (I believe that there will be a high tide on
Scarborough beach in the next 24 hours for example, or that you
don't understand what it means to be atheist.
The thing that most characterises the atheist is that he has no such
beliefs in gods or creators.
I am simply not convinced by those of many religions who tell
us their god is the one true god and find they simply cancel one
another out. They always seem to need us to share their belief
and are drawn to us like moths are drawn to a flame but can never
offer any reason or evidence to justify their claims.
Some go to extremes of course demanding we pretend to worship
their god and have been known to kill people who don't. Under
Puritan rule my ancestors were fined and imprisoned for not
attending their churches. When we eventually overthrew them
they departed in a huff to the nether regions of the world taking
their beliefs with them never to be heard of again. Good riddance
I say.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 08:05:02 AM |
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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
.
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| User: "Kelo Disaster" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 08:04:20 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pdjgh1ld2i1qa23d54uc4424f1cjkbl0mp@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Pot, Kettle, Black.
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 08:14:29 AM |
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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:04:20 -0500, "Kelo Disaster" <living@ussa.com>
wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pdjgh1ld2i1qa23d54uc4424f1cjkbl0mp@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Pot, Kettle, Black.
<plonk> yet another arrogant liar.
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| User: "Kelo Disaster" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 08:19:15 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:71kgh15k7qunlcfu5itvln0ho8qiht32ml@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:04:20 -0500, "Kelo Disaster" <living@ussa.com>
wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pdjgh1ld2i1qa23d54uc4424f1cjkbl0mp@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism
probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Pot, Kettle, Black.
<plonk> yet another arrogant liar.
"It was just more than he could bear."
Doc Holliday
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| User: "==Glorious Heaven==" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 08:07:44 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pdjgh1ld2i1qa23d54uc4424f1cjkbl0mp@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
You still do not understand it!! Atheism is a religion. Christianity is
proven science and a fact.
Krihna is just fiction
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 09:59:32 AM |
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"==Glorious Heaven==" <the.hague@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:df9ir0$im4$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pdjgh1ld2i1qa23d54uc4424f1cjkbl0mp@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
You still do not understand it!! Atheism is a religion. Christianity is
proven science and a fact.
Bwahahahhaha! You make funny joke!
Krihna is just fiction
Gee, no kidding, idiot.
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Sep 2005 08:11:09 AM |
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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 13:07:44 +0000 (UTC), "==Glorious Heaven=="
<the.hague@btinternet.com> wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:pdjgh1ld2i1qa23d54uc4424f1cjkbl0mp@4ax.com...
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
You still do not understand it!! Atheism is a religion.
Thank you for making my point for me, rude, lying idiot.
Christianity is
proven science and a fact.
Moron.
Krihna is just fiction
But not to Hindus - which makes it no different to non-Hindus than
Jesus is no non-Christians: just somebody else's irrelevant belief.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 05:43:40 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
:|On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
:|<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
:|
:|>If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
:|>qualifies as well as any . . .
:|
:|Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
:|
:|Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
:|what it means to be one?
Well you can consider several things
(1) What I originally posted contained an article written by a atheist,
Mike Newdow.
I noticed that you did not address that article at all. Nor did you address
any of the court refernces that were also included
(2) "T]he Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a
'religion' for First Amendment purposes."
(3) Is atheism a religion?
COLUMN By TIM GORDINIER, Ph.D.
http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/index.html?id=206#n2
www.HumanistNetworkNews.org
Aug. 31, 2005
What might otherwise have been regarded as an insignificant decision by the
Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals has recently reignited an old debate
within (and without) the freethought community about what constitutes "a
religion."
The case, Kaufman v McCaughtry, concerned an inmate who had asked prison
authorities to allow him to form a study group to discuss atheism, humanism
and related matters. When his request was rejected, he initiated legal
action. On Aug. 19 the court ruled in his favor.
The Court's opinion pointedly said that when dealing with matters of
"ultimate concern," atheism could and should occupy a parallel position to
religion and that that the prison had violated the Establishment Clause by
denying atheists the same rights as religionists.
Nonbelievers are split over whether it is a good thing to regard atheism as
a religion, although it would be a misreading of the Seventh Circuit
decision to say that that was what the court had in fact said.
What the court actually said was that "[t]he Supreme Court has recognized
atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for First Amendment purposes." Many
have deliberately misconstrued this nuanced qualification to dishonestly
advance their own agendas.
For some folks, even with numerous qualifiers, any association with
religion is too much. After all, atheists don't have sacraments or rituals;
and because they disavow all phenomena that have anything to do with the
supernatural -- from ghosts to Holy Ghosts --they want nothing to do with
the word "religion." Defending superstitions or dogmas is what organized
religion is so fond of doing -- not rationalists.
Interestingly, this is the second case in as many months dealing with
religious freedom in the prison system. In Cutter v. Wilkinson, the U.S.
Supreme Court upheld a federal law requiring prison authorities -- both
state and federal -- to accommodate the religious practices of incarcerated
persons, unless such activities posed a security risk or some other
unacceptable burden. Short of a compelling reason, the prison authorities
had to accommodate such conduct, and under no circumstances were they to
treat one request differently than another based on the religious
affiliation of the inmate.
In the Kaufman case, the authorities conceded that his atheism was sincere
and that his request did not pose a security risk. But they denied
permission to start the study group because his convictions did not raise
to the level of a religious belief, and therefore could be treated with
less solicitude, as the law allowed prison authorities to do with other
secular activities.
Kaufman did not rely on the federal law implicated in Cutter -- The
Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act (RLUIPA) -- but
argued, pure and simple, that the discrimination against him violated the
Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the First Amendment.
I come from the school of thought that believes that atheism should be
treated, legally at least, like a religion; though I do agree that a more
inclusive term such as life-stance or worldview -- one that would embrace
both religion and other non-religious belief systems dealing with ultimate
concerns -- would solve much of the problem.
Does that mean that the courts just need to fine-tune their language? Is
this brouhaha much ado about nothing?
The problem with including atheism along with supernatural creeds is not so
much the guilt-by-association implication that it will be regarded as just
another religion -- but that there will not be many occasions when
freethinkers get the same special treatment that religion receives when a
law burdens their practices or interferes with their values.
The conscientious objector cases of the sixties are the shining ideal for
equal treatment. There, pacifist atheists had argued -- successfully -- for
"c.o." status, like the Amish and Mennonites, when their number came up in
the draft. After all, the salient point was not one's views on the
supernatural, but whether or not they would pick up a rifle to back up
their platoon mates.
But it is precisely because religious doctrine so frequently requires its
adherents to do something (or refrain from doing something) that they get
accommodated in the first place. Atheists don't need special consideration
very often. When was the last time nonbelievers needed an exemption to wear
special headgear on the police force, when uniformity was otherwise called
for? Or a dispensation during Prohibition to use liquor for sacramental
purposes?
And don't expect these exemptions to go away under either a conservative or
a liberal Supreme Court. I've read many opinions in the last few weeks from
atheists decrying such special treatment for religion, but it is pretty
much settled constitutional doctrine that while the First Amendment does
not require exemptions, it does not prohibit them either. Our legal codes
are riddled with laws that confer privileges and exemptions and treat
classes of people differently for secular reasons. To not extend similar
consideration to religionists and atheists on occasion might be view as
hostility. More importantly, eliminating such special treatment ain’t going
to happen, either now or in the future.
It might be good time for some in our community to swallow a large dose of
pragmatism and accept the fact that religion is treated by the courts
differently than other kinds of belief systems. Atheists should reap some
of the benefits of this classification, because we surely will reap some of
the negatives of the classification as well.
And that's as it should be. Can anyone doubt that atheism should be treated
"as a religion" in certain circumstances? Wouldn't it, for example, be just
as unacceptable to put the words "without God" into the Pledge, as it now
is to include "under God?" Wouldn't it be just as inappropriate for the
biology teacher to push atheism along with the science of evolution, as it
would for the teacher to lead her students in prayer as part of values
training? In either case, government and schools have no business taking
sides in a supernatural debate -- and that includes those who champion the
atheist view.
Unlike the Court, I think it is okay for a public university to draw lines
and not fund student religious organizations on its campus -- and that
would necessarily include humanist/atheistic organizations as well. It's
reasonable to make distinctions between types of groups when funding
decisions are being made. What a public institution shouldn't be able to do
is fund a Catholic organization, but not the Episcopalians -- or for that
matter, the Young Democrats, but not the Young Republicans.
The bottom line is that if humanists and other non-believers must accept
the liabilities that come along with a religious classification, then why
not accept the benefits as well? The Kaufman decision does that without
actually saying that atheism is a religion. How often do nonbelievers get
their cake and eat it too?
Now if we could only come to some agreement on the definition of "secular."
But that’s a subject for another column.
Tim Gordinier, Ph.D., is the director of public policy of the Institute for
Humanist Studies. A registered lobbyist for humanism, he earned his
doctorate in public law with a concentration on the religion clauses of the
First Amendment. He is the author of the online course Religion and the
Constitution, offered through the Institute's Continuum of Humanist
Education. For information about the IHS public policy department, visit:
http://humaniststudies.org/policy.html. To receive Gordinier's NYS
legislative updates by email, visit:
http://humaniststudies.org/lists/alllists.html
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| User: "CPTFreedm" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Feb 2006 03:14:43 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Why do so many possibly stupid, apparently rude atheists imagine they
get to tell people of faith what it means to be one?
Pot/Kettle eh?
CPT
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| User: "Tom" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Feb 2006 06:07:12 PM |
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"CPTFreedm" <amfree@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7DuEf.4423$5E3.2946@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Why do so many possibly stupid, apparently rude atheists imagine they get
to tell people of faith what it means to be one?
Pot/Kettle eh?
CPT
Looks as if Raytard has morphed again :-))).
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Feb 2006 06:50:41 PM |
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Quit making such an episode out of the definition of 'atheist'.
It is already in every dictionary.
" a·the·ist ( ³"th¶-¹st) n. 1. One that disbelieves or denies the existence
of God or gods."
It is not any religion. It is lack of belief in gods and religions.
"Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:S8xEf.228$3n1.67@fe05.lga...
"CPTFreedm" <amfree@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7DuEf.4423$5E3.2946@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Why do so many possibly stupid, apparently rude atheists imagine they get
to tell people of faith what it means to be one?
Pot/Kettle eh?
CPT
Looks as if Raytard has morphed again :-))).
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| User: "CPTFreedm" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
03 Feb 2006 11:21:41 AM |
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Bill wrote:
Quit making such an episode out of the definition of 'atheist'.
It is already in every dictionary.
" a·the·ist ( ³"th¶-¹st) n. 1. One that disbelieves or denies the existence
of God or gods."
It is not any religion. It is lack of belief in gods and religions.
"Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:S8xEf.228$3n1.67@fe05.lga...
---snipped---
It can definitely be construed, by those who choose, as a religion or,
if you prefer, a *belief system*
As you will see below, commonly accepted definitions by recognized
dictionary publishers provide definitions that would certainly include
devoted Atheists
Oxford:
Religion
• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power,
especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and
worship. *3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion. *
American Heritage:
Religion
NOUN: 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers
regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or
institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The
life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs,
values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. *4.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious
devotion.*
CPT
Looks as if Raytard has morphed again :-))).
Who or What is a "Raytard"? I mean besides a liberal/secular/atheist
dodge of discussing issues presented in a thread?
Weak flame attempt? Flames are a waste of time.
CPT
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
02 Feb 2006 03:27:15 PM |
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CPTFreedm wrote:
Why do so many possibly stupid, apparently rude atheists imagine they
get to tell people of faith what it means to be one?
Pot/Kettle eh?
CPT
The following was posted to a.a. today:
wildbluskies@hotmail.com wrote:
"atheshits are demon spawn of SATAN, low lifes worthy only of contempt
and degradation I for one would hunt down and kill any atheist just to
watch him die and go to hell."
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.atheism/msg/40a6f13865fd4010?dmode=source
I consider this to be conclusive evidence about what it means to be
"people of faith".
Murdering scum, all of them.
j.m.
#1491
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
04 Feb 2006 09:03:17 AM |
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On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:14:43 GMT, CPTFreedm
<amfree@earthlink.net> wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:55:50 -0400, "Holliston Perni"
<hperni@AmericanJunta.com> wrote:
If religion is a system of beliefs, then I suppose that Atheism probably
qualifies as well as any . . .
Only if not believing in Krishna is a religion.
Why do so many stupid, rude people imagine they get to tell atheists
what it means to be one?
Why do so many possibly stupid, apparently rude atheists imagine they
get to tell people of faith what it means to be one?
Based on the public behavior of your leaders and
prominent spokepersons like Pat Roberson, does anyone
have to explain anything about the religious reich's
stupdity?
Or, for that matter, your other "leader" Jerry Falwell
and his production of the "clinton chronicles" which is
a set of faithbased lies, stories, innuendo, and
unethical *****.
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| User: "Blue Hornet" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
05 Sep 2005 11:03:59 PM |
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Well, of course atheism is a religion. (I'm not about to tell any
atheists that "they got religion", though.) It's a "religious" belief
in "no-god", which is even less provable than the existence in god/s.
Since anyone who witnesses anything that their religion promotes
(miracles, the Virgin Mary in a water stain, flying pigs, you name it)
as "proof of God", then trying to take the opposite position to prove
the negative is even less logically possible. Both beliefs are just
faith ... faith in opposites, to be sure, but faith just the same.
You could probably make the case that agnosticism (1. The doctrine that
certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and
that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.) is not
a religion. But agnosticism (2. The belief that there can be no proof
either that God exists or that God does not exist.) is another belief.
I'd make the argument that this is an epistemological "belief" as
opposed to a religious one, but that may be splitting hairs.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 10:29:45 AM |
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"Blue Hornet" <wrhs_71@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125979439.342555.67710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Well, of course atheism is a religion. (I'm not about to tell any
atheists that "they got religion", though.) It's a "religious" belief
in "no-god"
Wrong.
--
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Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Blue Hornet" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 11:52:21 AM |
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Well, what a cogent and thoughtful argument THAT is! I'm sure to
change my mind now. Not.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
06 Sep 2005 12:13:37 PM |
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"Blue Hornet" <wrhs_71@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126025541.277747.251020@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Well, what a cogent and thoughtful argument THAT is! I'm sure to
change my mind now. Not.
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. PLONK!
Oh, and you're still wrong and I doubt you'd even bother to find out why.
--
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Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
07 Sep 2005 12:13:37 AM |
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In article <1126025541.277747.251020@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Blue Hornet" <wrhs_71@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, what a cogent and thoughtful argument THAT is! I'm sure to
change my mind now. Not.
As BH has not included the argument that he is attempting to ridicule in
his posting, it is he that is looking ridiculous.
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