| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
18 Jun 2007 10:20:54 AM |
| Object: |
Is Atheism a Religion? |
from http://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
fact that although its definition may be simple, the philosophies that
surround it are not. There are so many different responses to atheism
that some have begun to call it a religion. But is this true? Is
atheism a religion, and if not, does it emulate many of the elements
of it? As I will show in this article, the answer to that question not
only makes us curious about the future implications of the growing
trend of atheism, it also demands our attention about what could
potentially be the next major movement in Western society.
What is a Religion?
To answer that question, we must examine the long history of religion
to reveal its purpose, which will in turn reveal its structure.
Although no definite number exists as to the age of religion,
anthropologists are convinced that crude animistic sects were a
hallmark of life for our ancient ancestors as far back as the
emergence of Homo sapiens (there is even evidence that our
evolutionary cousins, Neanderthals, had their own form of religion as
well). Our ancestors were not stupid; they possessed the same raw
mental power we do, but they were ignorant of the natural laws that
governed their environment. They faced the often brutal torment of
nature, and life was certainly never easy. When confronted with the
overwhelming power of nature, our ancestors turned to creative myths
to explain why such things as droughts, famine, storms, and death
occurred. As they were passed down orally from generation to
generation, the stories became ever more complex, and these
complexities led to elaborate cosmogonies, and of man's place in the
Universe.
Religion began to take a more active role in the stability of
societies during the Agrarian Revolution roughly 10,000 years ago, due
mainly to the fact that the production of food allowed for greater
numbers of individuals to live together in close proximity. In small
hunter-gatherer bands, the groups would normally be small enough to
allow conflicts to be regulated by the collective itself, so that
cheaters and opportunists would be caught relatively quickly, and
punished accordingly. In larger groupings, however, the collective was
often unable to monitor and punish those few uncooperative
individuals, and so an authoritative system needed to be devised to
regulate behavior and establish concrete laws that could all be agreed
upon. Since religions were then responsible for passing on important
traditions and information, so too could it create morality myths for
the purpose of guiding and regulating human behavior.
Of course, I make it sound as though this process was thoroughly
thought out on the part of the sects themselves. This evolution was
far more organic than directed; I use the word evolution specifically
because of the fact that religion was shaped by the selective
pressures of the rapidly escalating demands for order and structure as
changes began to affect human societies (rapidly when compared to the
genetic process of evolution, obviously). As such, the stability of
early societies became dependant, in large part, to the stability of
the religions themselves, which began to play an increasingly
important role in the functioning of society.
Religion was obviously not the only system devised to institutionalize
laws, although it probably was the first real stable system to do so.
Their powerful influence and apparent divine authority did much to
cement religion's position as arbiter. Even in societies where more
complex systems needed to be devised, such as states, nations, and
eventually empires, many of the mechanisms of authority relied heavily
on concepts first devised by religions. In any ancient (and even today
in more recent) societies, the collusion of religion and government
serves as mutually reinforcing institutions. This arrangement is due
to governments needing cooperation from the faithful droves that are
heavily dictated and mandated by religion, while sectarian
institutions rely on the ruling government to protect them against
other competing faiths. In early societies, religions played a direct
or joint role in mandating morality and laws, and secularism is only a
very recent trend in the history of human governance.
As with any powerful and highly influential institution, religion has
known its fair share of abuses. I hardly need to mention the
atrocities of the Crusades or of the Inquisition, nor do I need to
remind the reader that sectarian conflicts are still a part of our
daily lives. The Founding Fathers of America understood the dangers in
any institution that holds too much power, and devised a system of
intricate checks and balances to allow a self correcting process to
occur. Religions lack these balances, and are structured in such a way
that a very limited number of individuals command an unimaginable
level of power and influence. This, coupled with imperialistic
tendencies of various faiths aimed at becoming the only religion on
earth creates often volatile situations.
When most people think about religion, anyone not affiliated with any
sect in particular usually abhors the very notion of an institution
precisely because of the long history of both repression and terror of
a large number of religions. Many feel that anything that becomes
institutionalized is therefore inherently opposed to human freedom and
self-determination, at least when it comes to religious traditions.
Obviously, not every religion at any given time is necessarily
repressive and controlling, just as every government may not
inherently be either. It depends largely on how the institution is
created and managed, and on what foundations it lies on. Religions
like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are old religions, and many of
their tenants no longer match the social mores of contemporary
society. Also, the historic structure of religions like Christianity
have been mostly responsible for the atrocities committed in their
name, since they have relied on the executive control of a privileged
few individuals, none of which were immune from the lust for power and
control.
All of the major 3 great monotheistic religions are equally divisive
in nature, since their core ideologies tell them that they alone
possess the truth of God, making any others, by default, wrong. And if
history has taught us anything, it's that many faiths seem to regard
others with often violent contempt, if not outright hostility. That
does not mean that it is impossible for various faiths to get along
with one another. History is peppered with civilizations that
tolerated other faiths, but this tolerance could often quickly devolve
into violent assaults on tiny religious minorities. What allowed
religious dialog was not the structures of the institutions
themselves, but rather respect for the rule of law in a different and
more powerful institution: government.
Apart from religions being institutions responsible for the
codification and sometimes enforcement of morality and law, religions
obviously deal with another important element of the human experience:
spirituality. This usually involves interpreting the complex and often
confusing events and emotions we experience, since they can be
overwhelming. But religion is not unique in this regard; philosophy in
particular also performs this role, attempting to make inferences
about the human experience. It attempts to answer the same questions
religion does, but not necessarily by envoking the concept of a
creator or god.
So far, we've covered the 3 main components of religion; in explaining
processes in the natural world, in creating stability by codifying
laws and morality, and in addressing the spiritual concern of
individual humans. Although religion has deep roots in all three
aspects, it has become obvious over the past few hundred years since
the beginning of The Enlightenment that many of the traditional roles
of religion are not necessary to the functioning of society. Secular
countries have followed suit in eliminating the structures of
religious power from the political arena, and laws are no longer
modeled on the rather unsophisticated edicts of religious texts. In
civilized society, we no longer consider adultery to be a capital
offence, not because we are less moral, but because we recognize that
the finality of such a law does not have anyone's best interest in
mind. We have begun to accept that rules have exceptions, and that
there should be various degrees of punishment for the specific
circumstances of any crime.
The increased marginality of religion has not escaped its biggest
supporters, and it has taken considerable effort to wrestle these
powers away from them. In my home province of Quebec, until the Quiet
Revolution of the 60's, the church still dominated the instruction of
children, and had deep political influence. In the US, creationists
continue their assault on science, refusing to admit that the
cosmogony of their sacred text is only a myth, and insisting that it
represents objective reality. But such groups, rather than using the
strength of evidence (of which they have none), rely on our fears that
society will be doomed without them.
We have begun to demonstrate that the first two purposes of religion
can be handled without them, often with far better results. This leads
us to conclude, in modern society, that the purpose of religion is
instead of dealing with the spiritual component of life. This now
leads us to reconsider the original question of this article: whether
or not Atheism is a religion.
Although it may be said that the lack of belief in God eliminates the
need for any spirituality, I would argue that for many atheists, the
opposite is true. The realization that there is no higher power and no
special purpose to human life, forces us to begin to consider instead
what purpose our existence can have, rather than religion's assertion
that our aspirations have already been predetermined. The
understanding that there is nothing inherently special about our solar
system, which is one of many hundreds of billions in this galaxy
alone, itself one of billions, is a deep and awesome insight. How can
a person not be moved when looking up at the night sky, contemplating
that the stars they look upon are all ghostly images of the past
( since light has a finite speed, and because it sometimes takes
millions or even billions of years to reach us, the stars we see in
the sky may well have extinguished themselves long ago)?
Similarly, atheism forces us to consider morality on a far wider
scale. If there is no final arbiter, and if each one of us is
accountable to no supreme authority, it raises the stakes about how we
manage our laws and ethics. It encourages us to consider the broad
implications of our laws, and how they affect other human beings.
If spirituality is also not the exclusive realm of religion, just what
is left? For starters, Religions have traditions, as well as
institutions which teach and pass them on to younger generations. I
may know for a fact that transubstantiation (the literal changing of
wine into blood) does not really occur during religious masse, but I
cannot deny that the tradition is preserved and passed on by
Catholics, anymore than I can deny the reality of the tradition of
circumcision in Judaism (even though I may find the practice
abhorrent).
Are Atheists Dogmatic?
The accusation of atheism being a religion from the faithful seems to
me to be a deep and strange paradox. They claim that atheists have
their own dogma, and that a person needs a great deal of faith NOT to
believe. Even if that were true, which it is not, it would certainly
appear strange for the religious to consider this a flaw. After all,
these are the same people that profess un undying need for faith.
There are undoubtedly certain individuals that hold dogmatic idea,
regardless of their religiosity or not. But in general, dogmatism is
the specialty of religious institutions; not atheism. A person may
reject the notion of a God without needing to make any leap of faith.
Any intelligent religious person recognizes the fact that they believe
in God despite any evidence, or sometimes in contradiction to
evidence. Therefore, the position that God is a human construct is not
a statement of faith: it is precisely the opposite.
Currently, I would deny the status of religion to atheism, even though
I personally lament the lack of such institutions. For all the harm we
may associate with them, religious institutions still perform a
valuable function in society. For many African Americans, the only
institutions that have not let them down in 400 years have been their
own religious traditions. The community support they receive as a
direct result of their belief is a source of obvious strength, one
that atheism does not yet possess. Yet, despite the fact that atheists
find the idea of an institutionalized movement repugnant, the fact
remains that it is not the institution itself which is wrong; rather
it is the design of the structure itself. What good can come from
institutionalizing atheism? I would argue none.
It is true that in times of crisis, we feel compelled to fall back on
those systems of belief with the deepest roots, and religion certainly
has a long history. This is the reason many believe the idea that
"there are no atheists in foxholes". What they may fail to realize is
that the same impulse to fall back on various roots does not always
mean that individuals will adopt a religious stance. We also have a
long history of skepticism, and mistrust in the abuses of power. If
the traditions of science, skepticism, and free thought are to survive
any assault, its roots must be as deep as any religion. Individuals
will need to feel the same sense of community and support from atheism
as they do in their respective faiths. How else can we hope for
individuals to remove their dependence on superstition to provide
comfort and familiarity?
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not. But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so. A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies. If atheism is
to both survive and thrive, it will require the adoption of many of
the aspects of religion, tailored in a new way that avoids the
dangerous temptation of centralizing power and influence into the
hands of the few. Are we capable of such wisdom? Only time will tell.
.
|
|
| User: "bob young" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 11:28:02 PM |
|
|
"jacobfortin@gmail.com" wrote:
from http://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
fact that although its definition may be simple, the philosophies that
surround it are not. There are so many different responses to atheism
that some have begun to call it a religion. But is this true?
"GROAN"
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism
is human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious
mind cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is
not an old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is
not, and never has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is
magnificent in its simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity
in a world of madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
Is
atheism a religion, and if not, does it emulate many of the elements
of it? As I will show in this article, the answer to that question not
only makes us curious about the future implications of the growing
trend of atheism, it also demands our attention about what could
potentially be the next major movement in Western society.
What is a Religion?
To answer that question, we must examine the long history of religion
to reveal its purpose, which will in turn reveal its structure.
Although no definite number exists as to the age of religion,
anthropologists are convinced that crude animistic sects were a
hallmark of life for our ancient ancestors as far back as the
emergence of Homo sapiens (there is even evidence that our
evolutionary cousins, Neanderthals, had their own form of religion as
well). Our ancestors were not stupid; they possessed the same raw
mental power we do, but they were ignorant of the natural laws that
governed their environment. They faced the often brutal torment of
nature, and life was certainly never easy. When confronted with the
overwhelming power of nature, our ancestors turned to creative myths
to explain why such things as droughts, famine, storms, and death
occurred. As they were passed down orally from generation to
generation, the stories became ever more complex, and these
complexities led to elaborate cosmogonies, and of man's place in the
Universe.
Religion began to take a more active role in the stability of
societies during the Agrarian Revolution roughly 10,000 years ago, due
mainly to the fact that the production of food allowed for greater
numbers of individuals to live together in close proximity. In small
hunter-gatherer bands, the groups would normally be small enough to
allow conflicts to be regulated by the collective itself, so that
cheaters and opportunists would be caught relatively quickly, and
punished accordingly. In larger groupings, however, the collective was
often unable to monitor and punish those few uncooperative
individuals, and so an authoritative system needed to be devised to
regulate behavior and establish concrete laws that could all be agreed
upon. Since religions were then responsible for passing on important
traditions and information, so too could it create morality myths for
the purpose of guiding and regulating human behavior.
Of course, I make it sound as though this process was thoroughly
thought out on the part of the sects themselves. This evolution was
far more organic than directed; I use the word evolution specifically
because of the fact that religion was shaped by the selective
pressures of the rapidly escalating demands for order and structure as
changes began to affect human societies (rapidly when compared to the
genetic process of evolution, obviously). As such, the stability of
early societies became dependant, in large part, to the stability of
the religions themselves, which began to play an increasingly
important role in the functioning of society.
Religion was obviously not the only system devised to institutionalize
laws, although it probably was the first real stable system to do so.
Their powerful influence and apparent divine authority did much to
cement religion's position as arbiter. Even in societies where more
complex systems needed to be devised, such as states, nations, and
eventually empires, many of the mechanisms of authority relied heavily
on concepts first devised by religions. In any ancient (and even today
in more recent) societies, the collusion of religion and government
serves as mutually reinforcing institutions. This arrangement is due
to governments needing cooperation from the faithful droves that are
heavily dictated and mandated by religion, while sectarian
institutions rely on the ruling government to protect them against
other competing faiths. In early societies, religions played a direct
or joint role in mandating morality and laws, and secularism is only a
very recent trend in the history of human governance.
As with any powerful and highly influential institution, religion has
known its fair share of abuses. I hardly need to mention the
atrocities of the Crusades or of the Inquisition, nor do I need to
remind the reader that sectarian conflicts are still a part of our
daily lives. The Founding Fathers of America understood the dangers in
any institution that holds too much power, and devised a system of
intricate checks and balances to allow a self correcting process to
occur. Religions lack these balances, and are structured in such a way
that a very limited number of individuals command an unimaginable
level of power and influence. This, coupled with imperialistic
tendencies of various faiths aimed at becoming the only religion on
earth creates often volatile situations.
When most people think about religion, anyone not affiliated with any
sect in particular usually abhors the very notion of an institution
precisely because of the long history of both repression and terror of
a large number of religions. Many feel that anything that becomes
institutionalized is therefore inherently opposed to human freedom and
self-determination, at least when it comes to religious traditions.
Obviously, not every religion at any given time is necessarily
repressive and controlling, just as every government may not
inherently be either. It depends largely on how the institution is
created and managed, and on what foundations it lies on. Religions
like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are old religions, and many of
their tenants no longer match the social mores of contemporary
society. Also, the historic structure of religions like Christianity
have been mostly responsible for the atrocities committed in their
name, since they have relied on the executive control of a privileged
few individuals, none of which were immune from the lust for power and
control.
All of the major 3 great monotheistic religions are equally divisive
in nature, since their core ideologies tell them that they alone
possess the truth of God, making any others, by default, wrong. And if
history has taught us anything, it's that many faiths seem to regard
others with often violent contempt, if not outright hostility. That
does not mean that it is impossible for various faiths to get along
with one another. History is peppered with civilizations that
tolerated other faiths, but this tolerance could often quickly devolve
into violent assaults on tiny religious minorities. What allowed
religious dialog was not the structures of the institutions
themselves, but rather respect for the rule of law in a different and
more powerful institution: government.
Apart from religions being institutions responsible for the
codification and sometimes enforcement of morality and law, religions
obviously deal with another important element of the human experience:
spirituality. This usually involves interpreting the complex and often
confusing events and emotions we experience, since they can be
overwhelming. But religion is not unique in this regard; philosophy in
particular also performs this role, attempting to make inferences
about the human experience. It attempts to answer the same questions
religion does, but not necessarily by envoking the concept of a
creator or god.
So far, we've covered the 3 main components of religion; in explaining
processes in the natural world, in creating stability by codifying
laws and morality, and in addressing the spiritual concern of
individual humans. Although religion has deep roots in all three
aspects, it has become obvious over the past few hundred years since
the beginning of The Enlightenment that many of the traditional roles
of religion are not necessary to the functioning of society. Secular
countries have followed suit in eliminating the structures of
religious power from the political arena, and laws are no longer
modeled on the rather unsophisticated edicts of religious texts. In
civilized society, we no longer consider adultery to be a capital
offence, not because we are less moral, but because we recognize that
the finality of such a law does not have anyone's best interest in
mind. We have begun to accept that rules have exceptions, and that
there should be various degrees of punishment for the specific
circumstances of any crime.
The increased marginality of religion has not escaped its biggest
supporters, and it has taken considerable effort to wrestle these
powers away from them. In my home province of Quebec, until the Quiet
Revolution of the 60's, the church still dominated the instruction of
children, and had deep political influence. In the US, creationists
continue their assault on science, refusing to admit that the
cosmogony of their sacred text is only a myth, and insisting that it
represents objective reality. But such groups, rather than using the
strength of evidence (of which they have none), rely on our fears that
society will be doomed without them.
We have begun to demonstrate that the first two purposes of religion
can be handled without them, often with far better results. This leads
us to conclude, in modern society, that the purpose of religion is
instead of dealing with the spiritual component of life. This now
leads us to reconsider the original question of this article: whether
or not Atheism is a religion.
Although it may be said that the lack of belief in God eliminates the
need for any spirituality, I would argue that for many atheists, the
opposite is true. The realization that there is no higher power and no
special purpose to human life, forces us to begin to consider instead
what purpose our existence can have, rather than religion's assertion
that our aspirations have already been predetermined. The
understanding that there is nothing inherently special about our solar
system, which is one of many hundreds of billions in this galaxy
alone, itself one of billions, is a deep and awesome insight. How can
a person not be moved when looking up at the night sky, contemplating
that the stars they look upon are all ghostly images of the past
( since light has a finite speed, and because it sometimes takes
millions or even billions of years to reach us, the stars we see in
the sky may well have extinguished themselves long ago)?
Similarly, atheism forces us to consider morality on a far wider
scale. If there is no final arbiter, and if each one of us is
accountable to no supreme authority, it raises the stakes about how we
manage our laws and ethics. It encourages us to consider the broad
implications of our laws, and how they affect other human beings.
If spirituality is also not the exclusive realm of religion, just what
is left? For starters, Religions have traditions, as well as
institutions which teach and pass them on to younger generations. I
may know for a fact that transubstantiation (the literal changing of
wine into blood) does not really occur during religious masse, but I
cannot deny that the tradition is preserved and passed on by
Catholics, anymore than I can deny the reality of the tradition of
circumcision in Judaism (even though I may find the practice
abhorrent).
Are Atheists Dogmatic?
The accusation of atheism being a religion from the faithful seems to
me to be a deep and strange paradox. They claim that atheists have
their own dogma, and that a person needs a great deal of faith NOT to
believe. Even if that were true, which it is not, it would certainly
appear strange for the religious to consider this a flaw. After all,
these are the same people that profess un undying need for faith.
There are undoubtedly certain individuals that hold dogmatic idea,
regardless of their religiosity or not. But in general, dogmatism is
the specialty of religious institutions; not atheism. A person may
reject the notion of a God without needing to make any leap of faith.
Any intelligent religious person recognizes the fact that they believe
in God despite any evidence, or sometimes in contradiction to
evidence. Therefore, the position that God is a human construct is not
a statement of faith: it is precisely the opposite.
Currently, I would deny the status of religion to atheism, even though
I personally lament the lack of such institutions. For all the harm we
may associate with them, religious institutions still perform a
valuable function in society. For many African Americans, the only
institutions that have not let them down in 400 years have been their
own religious traditions. The community support they receive as a
direct result of their belief is a source of obvious strength, one
that atheism does not yet possess. Yet, despite the fact that atheists
find the idea of an institutionalized movement repugnant, the fact
remains that it is not the institution itself which is wrong; rather
it is the design of the structure itself. What good can come from
institutionalizing atheism? I would argue none.
It is true that in times of crisis, we feel compelled to fall back on
those systems of belief with the deepest roots, and religion certainly
has a long history. This is the reason many believe the idea that
"there are no atheists in foxholes". What they may fail to realize is
that the same impulse to fall back on various roots does not always
mean that individuals will adopt a religious stance. We also have a
long history of skepticism, and mistrust in the abuses of power. If
the traditions of science, skepticism, and free thought are to survive
any assault, its roots must be as deep as any religion. Individuals
will need to feel the same sense of community and support from atheism
as they do in their respective faiths. How else can we hope for
individuals to remove their dependence on superstition to provide
comfort and familiarity?
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not. But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so. A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies. If atheism is
to both survive and thrive, it will require the adoption of many of
the aspects of religion, tailored in a new way that avoids the
dangerous temptation of centralizing power and influence into the
hands of the few. Are we capable of such wisdom? Only time will tell.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "John Popelish" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 11:11:50 AM |
|
|
wrote:
from http://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
fact that although its definition may be simple, the philosophies that
surround it are not.
(snip)
Any writer could construct something more like an actual
sentence than that.
Try diagramming it, if you want a challenge.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "chibiabos" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 03:21:10 PM |
|
|
In article <1182180054.620890.274720@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
<"jacobfortin@gmail.com"> wrote:
from http://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
[snip]
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
You knee-jerk regulars might want to do yourselves the favor once in a
while of actually reading the post before your shoot your predictable
wad.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
.
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|
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| User: "Dan Listermann" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 10:44:03 AM |
|
|
Is "bald" a hair color?
<jacobfortin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1182180054.620890.274720@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
from http://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
fact that although its definition may be simple, the philosophies that
surround it are not. There are so many different responses to atheism
that some have begun to call it a religion. But is this true? Is
atheism a religion, and if not, does it emulate many of the elements
of it? As I will show in this article, the answer to that question not
only makes us curious about the future implications of the growing
trend of atheism, it also demands our attention about what could
potentially be the next major movement in Western society.
What is a Religion?
To answer that question, we must examine the long history of religion
to reveal its purpose, which will in turn reveal its structure.
Although no definite number exists as to the age of religion,
anthropologists are convinced that crude animistic sects were a
hallmark of life for our ancient ancestors as far back as the
emergence of Homo sapiens (there is even evidence that our
evolutionary cousins, Neanderthals, had their own form of religion as
well). Our ancestors were not stupid; they possessed the same raw
mental power we do, but they were ignorant of the natural laws that
governed their environment. They faced the often brutal torment of
nature, and life was certainly never easy. When confronted with the
overwhelming power of nature, our ancestors turned to creative myths
to explain why such things as droughts, famine, storms, and death
occurred. As they were passed down orally from generation to
generation, the stories became ever more complex, and these
complexities led to elaborate cosmogonies, and of man's place in the
Universe.
Religion began to take a more active role in the stability of
societies during the Agrarian Revolution roughly 10,000 years ago, due
mainly to the fact that the production of food allowed for greater
numbers of individuals to live together in close proximity. In small
hunter-gatherer bands, the groups would normally be small enough to
allow conflicts to be regulated by the collective itself, so that
cheaters and opportunists would be caught relatively quickly, and
punished accordingly. In larger groupings, however, the collective was
often unable to monitor and punish those few uncooperative
individuals, and so an authoritative system needed to be devised to
regulate behavior and establish concrete laws that could all be agreed
upon. Since religions were then responsible for passing on important
traditions and information, so too could it create morality myths for
the purpose of guiding and regulating human behavior.
Of course, I make it sound as though this process was thoroughly
thought out on the part of the sects themselves. This evolution was
far more organic than directed; I use the word evolution specifically
because of the fact that religion was shaped by the selective
pressures of the rapidly escalating demands for order and structure as
changes began to affect human societies (rapidly when compared to the
genetic process of evolution, obviously). As such, the stability of
early societies became dependant, in large part, to the stability of
the religions themselves, which began to play an increasingly
important role in the functioning of society.
Religion was obviously not the only system devised to institutionalize
laws, although it probably was the first real stable system to do so.
Their powerful influence and apparent divine authority did much to
cement religion's position as arbiter. Even in societies where more
complex systems needed to be devised, such as states, nations, and
eventually empires, many of the mechanisms of authority relied heavily
on concepts first devised by religions. In any ancient (and even today
in more recent) societies, the collusion of religion and government
serves as mutually reinforcing institutions. This arrangement is due
to governments needing cooperation from the faithful droves that are
heavily dictated and mandated by religion, while sectarian
institutions rely on the ruling government to protect them against
other competing faiths. In early societies, religions played a direct
or joint role in mandating morality and laws, and secularism is only a
very recent trend in the history of human governance.
As with any powerful and highly influential institution, religion has
known its fair share of abuses. I hardly need to mention the
atrocities of the Crusades or of the Inquisition, nor do I need to
remind the reader that sectarian conflicts are still a part of our
daily lives. The Founding Fathers of America understood the dangers in
any institution that holds too much power, and devised a system of
intricate checks and balances to allow a self correcting process to
occur. Religions lack these balances, and are structured in such a way
that a very limited number of individuals command an unimaginable
level of power and influence. This, coupled with imperialistic
tendencies of various faiths aimed at becoming the only religion on
earth creates often volatile situations.
When most people think about religion, anyone not affiliated with any
sect in particular usually abhors the very notion of an institution
precisely because of the long history of both repression and terror of
a large number of religions. Many feel that anything that becomes
institutionalized is therefore inherently opposed to human freedom and
self-determination, at least when it comes to religious traditions.
Obviously, not every religion at any given time is necessarily
repressive and controlling, just as every government may not
inherently be either. It depends largely on how the institution is
created and managed, and on what foundations it lies on. Religions
like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are old religions, and many of
their tenants no longer match the social mores of contemporary
society. Also, the historic structure of religions like Christianity
have been mostly responsible for the atrocities committed in their
name, since they have relied on the executive control of a privileged
few individuals, none of which were immune from the lust for power and
control.
All of the major 3 great monotheistic religions are equally divisive
in nature, since their core ideologies tell them that they alone
possess the truth of God, making any others, by default, wrong. And if
history has taught us anything, it's that many faiths seem to regard
others with often violent contempt, if not outright hostility. That
does not mean that it is impossible for various faiths to get along
with one another. History is peppered with civilizations that
tolerated other faiths, but this tolerance could often quickly devolve
into violent assaults on tiny religious minorities. What allowed
religious dialog was not the structures of the institutions
themselves, but rather respect for the rule of law in a different and
more powerful institution: government.
Apart from religions being institutions responsible for the
codification and sometimes enforcement of morality and law, religions
obviously deal with another important element of the human experience:
spirituality. This usually involves interpreting the complex and often
confusing events and emotions we experience, since they can be
overwhelming. But religion is not unique in this regard; philosophy in
particular also performs this role, attempting to make inferences
about the human experience. It attempts to answer the same questions
religion does, but not necessarily by envoking the concept of a
creator or god.
So far, we've covered the 3 main components of religion; in explaining
processes in the natural world, in creating stability by codifying
laws and morality, and in addressing the spiritual concern of
individual humans. Although religion has deep roots in all three
aspects, it has become obvious over the past few hundred years since
the beginning of The Enlightenment that many of the traditional roles
of religion are not necessary to the functioning of society. Secular
countries have followed suit in eliminating the structures of
religious power from the political arena, and laws are no longer
modeled on the rather unsophisticated edicts of religious texts. In
civilized society, we no longer consider adultery to be a capital
offence, not because we are less moral, but because we recognize that
the finality of such a law does not have anyone's best interest in
mind. We have begun to accept that rules have exceptions, and that
there should be various degrees of punishment for the specific
circumstances of any crime.
The increased marginality of religion has not escaped its biggest
supporters, and it has taken considerable effort to wrestle these
powers away from them. In my home province of Quebec, until the Quiet
Revolution of the 60's, the church still dominated the instruction of
children, and had deep political influence. In the US, creationists
continue their assault on science, refusing to admit that the
cosmogony of their sacred text is only a myth, and insisting that it
represents objective reality. But such groups, rather than using the
strength of evidence (of which they have none), rely on our fears that
society will be doomed without them.
We have begun to demonstrate that the first two purposes of religion
can be handled without them, often with far better results. This leads
us to conclude, in modern society, that the purpose of religion is
instead of dealing with the spiritual component of life. This now
leads us to reconsider the original question of this article: whether
or not Atheism is a religion.
Although it may be said that the lack of belief in God eliminates the
need for any spirituality, I would argue that for many atheists, the
opposite is true. The realization that there is no higher power and no
special purpose to human life, forces us to begin to consider instead
what purpose our existence can have, rather than religion's assertion
that our aspirations have already been predetermined. The
understanding that there is nothing inherently special about our solar
system, which is one of many hundreds of billions in this galaxy
alone, itself one of billions, is a deep and awesome insight. How can
a person not be moved when looking up at the night sky, contemplating
that the stars they look upon are all ghostly images of the past
( since light has a finite speed, and because it sometimes takes
millions or even billions of years to reach us, the stars we see in
the sky may well have extinguished themselves long ago)?
Similarly, atheism forces us to consider morality on a far wider
scale. If there is no final arbiter, and if each one of us is
accountable to no supreme authority, it raises the stakes about how we
manage our laws and ethics. It encourages us to consider the broad
implications of our laws, and how they affect other human beings.
If spirituality is also not the exclusive realm of religion, just what
is left? For starters, Religions have traditions, as well as
institutions which teach and pass them on to younger generations. I
may know for a fact that transubstantiation (the literal changing of
wine into blood) does not really occur during religious masse, but I
cannot deny that the tradition is preserved and passed on by
Catholics, anymore than I can deny the reality of the tradition of
circumcision in Judaism (even though I may find the practice
abhorrent).
Are Atheists Dogmatic?
The accusation of atheism being a religion from the faithful seems to
me to be a deep and strange paradox. They claim that atheists have
their own dogma, and that a person needs a great deal of faith NOT to
believe. Even if that were true, which it is not, it would certainly
appear strange for the religious to consider this a flaw. After all,
these are the same people that profess un undying need for faith.
There are undoubtedly certain individuals that hold dogmatic idea,
regardless of their religiosity or not. But in general, dogmatism is
the specialty of religious institutions; not atheism. A person may
reject the notion of a God without needing to make any leap of faith.
Any intelligent religious person recognizes the fact that they believe
in God despite any evidence, or sometimes in contradiction to
evidence. Therefore, the position that God is a human construct is not
a statement of faith: it is precisely the opposite.
Currently, I would deny the status of religion to atheism, even though
I personally lament the lack of such institutions. For all the harm we
may associate with them, religious institutions still perform a
valuable function in society. For many African Americans, the only
institutions that have not let them down in 400 years have been their
own religious traditions. The community support they receive as a
direct result of their belief is a source of obvious strength, one
that atheism does not yet possess. Yet, despite the fact that atheists
find the idea of an institutionalized movement repugnant, the fact
remains that it is not the institution itself which is wrong; rather
it is the design of the structure itself. What good can come from
institutionalizing atheism? I would argue none.
It is true that in times of crisis, we feel compelled to fall back on
those systems of belief with the deepest roots, and religion certainly
has a long history. This is the reason many believe the idea that
"there are no atheists in foxholes". What they may fail to realize is
that the same impulse to fall back on various roots does not always
mean that individuals will adopt a religious stance. We also have a
long history of skepticism, and mistrust in the abuses of power. If
the traditions of science, skepticism, and free thought are to survive
any assault, its roots must be as deep as any religion. Individuals
will need to feel the same sense of community and support from atheism
as they do in their respective faiths. How else can we hope for
individuals to remove their dependence on superstition to provide
comfort and familiarity?
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not. But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so. A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies. If atheism is
to both survive and thrive, it will require the adoption of many of
the aspects of religion, tailored in a new way that avoids the
dangerous temptation of centralizing power and influence into the
hands of the few. Are we capable of such wisdom? Only time will tell.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 02:31:17 PM |
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No
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
19 Jun 2007 12:53:59 AM |
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On 18 juin, 17:20, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
Is "not collecting stamps" a hobby?
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
19 Jun 2007 01:55:29 AM |
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On Jun 19, 3:53 pm, wrote:
On 18 juin, 17:20, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
Is "not collecting stamps" a hobby?
For sport I don't play baseball !
I hardly have time for it these days what with not playing football,
Not playing water Polo and not mountain climbing - but I still manage.
That just shows how dedicated and fanatical I am about not playing
baseball.
Mark
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 10:53:56 AM |
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On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
The purpose of atheism is not, and never has been, to provide comfort
or moral guidance. We get those from other sources besides atheism.
Usually our compassion for other people. The origin of atheism,
reason, helps in that too. Atheism isn't a doctrine of any kind. An
atheist is, quite simply, what a person is after they they see
religions are simply ancient myths and they understand that there is
no reason to believe in a god.
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| User: "t1gercat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 10:39:17 AM |
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On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
Big snip
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
Ok.
But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so.
????? Let me put my response to you this way -- Which would you rather
have ministering to you should your appendix get infected, a Witch
Doctor or Priest making incantations and rolling bones, or a skilled
sugeon who was an atheist? You have 5 seconds to reply.
A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies.
Those societies are desperate and troubled because of their religion
and their general culture.
If atheism is
to both survive and thrive, it will require the adoption of many of
the aspects of religion, tailored in a new way that avoids the
dangerous temptation of centralizing power and influence into the
hands of the few.
I'd rather have wonder drugs, air conditioning and HDTV thank you.
Are we capable of such wisdom? Only time will tell.
Weak conclusion.
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| User: "Pt. Lurk Pt." |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 11:51:06 AM |
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"t1gercat" <wexford1778@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182181157.099502.309680@q69g2000hsb.
A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies.
Those societies are desperate and troubled because of their religion
and their general culture.
Why can't you people retain any historical knowledge? Iran is now a
fundamentalist society because the US worked to impose and keep the
tyrannical-but-compliant Shah in control for decades. Afghanistan is now a
fundamentalist society because the US supported and strengthened Muslim
fanatics as a way of opposing the Soviet invasion it had managed to provoke.
Hamas and Hezbollah are now powerful and election-winning factions because
the US does whatever is needed to keep the Israeli boot on the necks of
their people. And so on, and so on...
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
L.
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| User: "t1gercat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
20 Jun 2007 10:37:24 AM |
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On Jun 18, 12:51 pm, "Pt. Lurk" <Pt. L...@renvcom.net> wrote:
"t1gercat" <wexford1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182181157.099502.309680@q69g2000hsb.
A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies.
Those societies are desperate and troubled because of their religion
and their general culture.
Why can't you people retain any historical knowledge? Iran is now a
fundamentalist society because the US worked to impose and keep the
tyrannical-but-compliant Shah in control for decades. Afghanistan is now a
fundamentalist society because the US supported and strengthened Muslim
fanatics as a way of opposing the Soviet invasion it had managed to provoke.
Hamas and Hezbollah are now powerful and election-winning factions because
the US does whatever is needed to keep the Israeli boot on the necks of
their people. And so on, and so on...
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
I don't disagree that the United States -- and the West in general --
has behaved abominably towards these people. The roots of
fundamentalism were there already, however. We didn't plant them. Read
VS Naipaul.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 12:59:35 PM |
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Pt. Lurk wrote:
"t1gercat" <wexford1778@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182181157.099502.309680@q69g2000hsb.
A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies.
Those societies are desperate and troubled because of their religion
and their general culture.
Why can't you people retain any historical knowledge? Iran is now a
fundamentalist society because the US worked to impose and keep the
tyrannical-but-compliant Shah in control for decades. Afghanistan is now a
fundamentalist society because the US supported and strengthened Muslim
fanatics as a way of opposing the Soviet invasion it had managed to provoke.
Hamas and Hezbollah are now powerful and election-winning factions because
the US does whatever is needed to keep the Israeli boot on the necks of
their people. And so on, and so on...
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
That is an utterly ridiculous conclusion. The United States
bears responsibility for the harm it directly causes. It does NOT
bear responsibility for the fact that people respond to their troubles
(sometimes aggravated by bad US policies) in an irrational self-
defeating way by becoming religious fanatics. Can't you see this
distinction?
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 01:05:01 PM |
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Mike wrote:
Pt. Lurk wrote:
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
That is an utterly ridiculous conclusion. The United States
bears responsibility for the harm it directly causes. It does NOT
bear responsibility for the fact that people respond to their troubles
(sometimes aggravated by bad US policies) in an irrational self-
defeating way by becoming religious fanatics. Can't you see this
distinction?
You are confusing the concept of responsibility with the
concept of cause. Cause and effect just happens, it doesn't
care of anyone is, or is held, responsible. When you can
set aside your emotions about blame and just look at cause
an effect with detached reason, you may begin to understand
the world very differently.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 01:06:33 PM |
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John Popelish wrote:
Mike wrote:
Pt. Lurk wrote:
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to
them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated
middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
That is an utterly ridiculous conclusion. The United States
bears responsibility for the harm it directly causes. It does NOT
bear responsibility for the fact that people respond to their troubles
(sometimes aggravated by bad US policies) in an irrational self-
defeating way by becoming religious fanatics. Can't you see this
distinction?
(spelling corrections:)
You are confusing the concept of responsibility with the concept of
cause. Cause and effect just happens, it doesn't care if anyone is, or
is held, responsible. When you can set aside your emotions about blame
and just look at cause and effect with detached reason, you may begin to
understand the world very differently.
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 01:20:15 PM |
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John Popelish wrote:
Mike wrote:
Pt. Lurk wrote:
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
That is an utterly ridiculous conclusion. The United States
bears responsibility for the harm it directly causes. It does NOT
bear responsibility for the fact that people respond to their troubles
(sometimes aggravated by bad US policies) in an irrational self-
defeating way by becoming religious fanatics. Can't you see this
distinction?
You are confusing the concept of responsibility with the
concept of cause. Cause and effect just happens, it doesn't
care of anyone is, or is held, responsible. When you can
set aside your emotions about blame
That is a rather pompous way to make your point. Anyways you need to
tell Pt. Lurk this, not me. I was responding to HIS statement about
"blaming Washington". HE introduced the discussion about blame, not
I. And it is not correct to say that we CAUSED the wave of religious
fundamentalism that afflicts Islam these days. We certainly were
short-sighted in our policies and we should have had better awareness
of the political dynamic going on in Iran for example. We should have
been more aware that we were politically strengthening the position of
the conservative Ayatollahs. But I still insist that the Iranians
made there own choice to get swept up in a wave of religious
fanaticism and that cannot be attributed to the US in any direct way.
If I cause you hardship out of stupidity or even malice and you
respond to the stress by going insane, I cannot be said to have caused
your insanity. We are all responsible for what we directly do, not
for all imaginable spin-off effects. The record of the US in the
Middle East is bad enough. Don't falsely add to it by saying that we
CAUSE Islamic fundamentalism. It is not true.
and just look at cause
an effect with detached reason, you may begin to understand
the world very differently.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 01:53:34 PM |
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Mike wrote:
John Popelish wrote:
You are confusing the concept of responsibility with the
concept of cause. Cause and effect just happens, it doesn't
care of anyone is, or is held, responsible. When you can
set aside your emotions about blame
That is a rather pompous way to make your point.
I have to agree with that assessment. I came off very
pompous, as if I live up to my advice. But in reality, I
don't and was thinking of my own self as much as I was of
you or anyone else. I wish I could achieve that lofty
mental state. Sorry for saying that so poorly.
Anyways you need to
tell Pt. Lurk this, not me. I was responding to HIS statement about
"blaming Washington". HE introduced the discussion about blame, not
I. And it is not correct to say that we CAUSED the wave of religious
fundamentalism that afflicts Islam these days. We certainly were
short-sighted in our policies and we should have had better awareness
of the political dynamic going on in Iran for example. We should have
been more aware that we were politically strengthening the position of
the conservative Ayatollahs.
Yes. that is a discussion of cause.
But I still insist that the Iranians
made there own choice to get swept up in a wave of religious
fanaticism and that cannot be attributed to the US in any direct way.
But that takes you out of an understanding of cause and back
to assigning blame.
If I cause you hardship out of stupidity or even malice and you
respond to the stress by going insane, I cannot be said to have caused
your insanity.
I agree that you cannot be held to be responsible for
everything you cause, but only for what you intend to cause,
and then, even if you fail. But if your actions are the
final link in cause my insanity, even though you had no
intention to do it, you are still part of the cause of my
insanity.
We are all responsible for what we directly do, not
for all imaginable spin-off effects. The record of the US in the
Middle East is bad enough. Don't falsely add to it by saying that we
CAUSE Islamic fundamentalism. It is not true.
Unless you have absolute and complete knowledge if every
interaction involved, how can you know what the US is the
cause of? I am just trying to remain humble about not
having such knowledge and to explore the facts as they are
able to be known.
and just look at cause
an effect with detached reason, you may begin to understand
the world very differently.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 03:13:01 PM |
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John Popelish wrote:
Mike wrote:
But I still insist that the Iranians
made there own choice to get swept up in a wave of religious
fanaticism and that cannot be attributed to the US in any direct way.
But that takes you out of an understanding of cause and back
to assigning blame.
No. A person who likes Islamic fundamentalism would speak in
terms of credit rather than blame. But I am insisting that the US
gets neither credit nor blame because the US did not CAUSE the
upswelling of religous fundamentalism. The Iranians could have chosen
different ways to respond to the situation.
If I cause you hardship out of stupidity or even malice and you
respond to the stress by going insane, I cannot be said to have caused
your insanity.
I agree that you cannot be held to be responsible for
everything you cause, but only for what you intend to cause,
and then, even if you fail. But if your actions are the
final link in cause my insanity, even though you had no
intention to do it, you are still part of the cause of my
insanity.
We are all responsible for what we directly do, not
for all imaginable spin-off effects. The record of the US in the
Middle East is bad enough. Don't falsely add to it by saying that we
CAUSE Islamic fundamentalism. It is not true.
Unless you have absolute and complete knowledge if every
interaction involved, how can you know what the US is the
cause of? I am just trying to remain humble about not
having such knowledge and to explore the facts as they are
able to be known.
That is precisely why I am arguing for a more restricted usage of
the word "cause". We don't have absolute and complete knowledge of
every interaction involved. But we do know that US actions did not
COMPEL the Iranian people to embrace Islamic fundamentalism. That
would be like saying that vindictive policies by the victorious allies
in WWI CAUSED the rise of Naziism in Germany. Or like saying that the
Roman occupation of Palestine CAUSED messianic trends in Judaeism
circa 0 AD. If we accept that people have free will (if you disagree
that would be another long discussion!) then people are ultimately
responsible (I mean causally, not blame-wise or credit-wise) for their
own mental states and their own actions.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 03:39:16 PM |
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Mike wrote:
That is precisely why I am arguing for a more restricted usage of
the word "cause". We don't have absolute and complete knowledge of
every interaction involved. But we do know that US actions did not
COMPEL the Iranian people to embrace Islamic fundamentalism.
you speak as if there can be only one compelling cause of
any effect, where I think in terms of weighted contributory
factors. For every action chosen, a ripple of cause and
effect goes out across the universe that is not retractable
or reversible, and every choice not taken represents an
infinite wave of cause and effect that is forever eliminated
from the history of the universe. You are still playing the
blame game.
That
would be like saying that vindictive policies by the victorious allies
in WWI CAUSED the rise of Naziism in Germany.
Are you claiming that they had no effect on the unfolding of
that part of history?
Or like saying that the
Roman occupation of Palestine CAUSED messianic trends in Judaeism
circa 0 AD. If we accept that people have free will (if you disagree
that would be another long discussion!)
I think free will is an illusion. Perhaps that is the
disconnect in out views.
then people are ultimately
responsible (I mean causally, not blame-wise or credit-wise) for their
own mental states and their own actions.
I think peoples' mental states are just another facet of
their physical existence and those states are just as much a
result of cause and effect as any other physical aspect is.
And as such, mental states are altered by cause and effect
by whatever impinges on the mind containing those mental
states.
The policies of the U.S government certainly impinge on a
lot of mental states throughout the world to various and
complicated effect. Denying those effects is a sure way to
fail to anticipate any of them.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 06:45:31 PM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:59:35 -0700, Mike wrote:
Pt. Lurk wrote:
"t1gercat" <wexford1778@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182181157.099502.309680@q69g2000hsb.
A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies.
Those societies are desperate and troubled because of their religion
and their general culture.
Why can't you people retain any historical knowledge? Iran is now a
fundamentalist society because the US worked to impose and keep the
tyrannical-but-compliant Shah in control for decades. Afghanistan is now a
fundamentalist society because the US supported and strengthened Muslim
fanatics as a way of opposing the Soviet invasion it had managed to provoke.
Hamas and Hezbollah are now powerful and election-winning factions because
the US does whatever is needed to keep the Israeli boot on the necks of
their people. And so on, and so on...
Face facts: plenty of these 'desperate and troubled' societies are
'fundamentalist' as *a direct result of what Uncle Sam has done to them*.
Blaming religion here is just the compliant, semi-educated middle-class way
of *not blaming Washington*.
That is an utterly ridiculous conclusion. The United States
bears responsibility for the harm it directly causes. It does NOT
bear responsibility for the fact that people respond to their troubles
(sometimes aggravated by bad US policies) in an irrational self-
defeating way by becoming religious fanatics. Can't you see this
distinction?
Yes and no.
Fact is, regardless of "responsibility", we know--if in broad terms--how
human beings react to situations. The meddling we've done in the US has
caused many of the problems we're now facing. Such as, if we hadn't done
the bidding of the oil companies around a half century ago and overthrown
the government of Iran and, instead, done what we could to help an actual
democratic nation develop, the ME would look totally different today.
It *is irrational and self-defeating to become a religious fanatic. But
it's a fairly predictable behavior when people are pushed to their limits.
And we've done a lot of pushing.
We've known this for some time now but we're still at it. We keep doing
the same things but expecting different results.
As in, early in the Bush administration, people kept talking about
"draining the swamp". The only way to undercut the religious fanatics is
to improve the lot of the average person in the area. Instead, we decided
to do the same old ***** over again and topple a government to "fix it".
I don't see it as "responsibilty" so much as every time you push button A
and you get response B but response B isn't good...
Well, stop pushing button A.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Behold the foul stench of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!"
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 11:09:33 AM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:39:17 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1778@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
Big snip
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
Ok.
But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so.
????? Let me put my response to you this way -- Which would you rather
have ministering to you should your appendix get infected, a Witch
Doctor or Priest making incantations and rolling bones, or a skilled
sugeon who was an atheist? You have 5 seconds to reply.
I get my community from friends with the same interests, not from what
I'm not.
Atheists are individuals who happen not to be theist. And that's all
it takes.
So when I was hospitalised last year, it was friends and colleagues
from work who helped me when I needed it. A colleague who lives down
the road fed and watered the cats. My biggest local "community" is at
the model railroad club which includes a couple of ministers who know
what is appropriate and what isn't. There are also people with similar
interests I meet for brunch with, and do other things that we find
mutually interesting. Etc.
Even the NYC Atheists members didn't know until afterwards. A
colleague phoned my Lady Friend in California and my parents in
England, who each called the people who mattered. So I had more
transatlantic and long distance telephone calls from the opposite
coast than visitors locally. Even my sister lives 1200 miles away in
Kansas City.
A serious crisis might push us more towards
religious fundamentalism, which is something that is currently
happening in the most desperate and troubled societies.
Those societies are desperate and troubled because of their religion
and their general culture.
Yes.
What too many religionists don't seem to understand, is that the
recent stridency from atheists is because we don't put up with their
behaviour towards us any more.
There has been a backlash against the evangelical fundamentalists and
the creationists. Not just from atheists but also other religionists.
If atheism is
to both survive and thrive, it will require the adoption of many of
the aspects of religion, tailored in a new way that avoids the
dangerous temptation of centralizing power and influence into the
hands of the few.
I'd rather have wonder drugs, air conditioning and HDTV thank you.
Are we capable of such wisdom? Only time will tell.
Weak conclusion.
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 12:18:36 PM |
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On Jun 18, 12:09 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:39:17 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
Big snip
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
Ok.
But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so.
????? Let me put my response to you this way -- Which would you rather
have ministering to you should your appendix get infected, a Witch
Doctor or Priest making incantations and rolling bones, or a skilled
sugeon who was an atheist? You have 5 seconds to reply.
I get my community from friends with the same interests, not from what
I'm not.
Atheists are individuals who happen not to be theist. And that's all
it takes.
So when I was hospitalised last year, it was friends and colleagues
from work who helped me when I needed it. A colleague who lives down
the road fed and watered the cats. My biggest local "community" is at
the model railroad club which includes a couple of ministers who know
what is appropriate and what isn't. There are also people with similar
interests I meet for brunch with, and do other things that we find
mutually interesting. Etc.
What scale do you model in? I used to do HO, because of the low cost
and availability of nice kits, but now I do L-Guage(Lego Trains)
Hatter
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
18 Jun 2007 02:27:26 PM |
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On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:18:36 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 18, 12:09 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:39:17 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
Big snip
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
Ok.
But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so.
????? Let me put my response to you this way -- Which would you rather
have ministering to you should your appendix get infected, a Witch
Doctor or Priest making incantations and rolling bones, or a skilled
sugeon who was an atheist? You have 5 seconds to reply.
I get my community from friends with the same interests, not from what
I'm not.
Atheists are individuals who happen not to be theist. And that's all
it takes.
So when I was hospitalised last year, it was friends and colleagues
from work who helped me when I needed it. A colleague who lives down
the road fed and watered the cats. My biggest local "community" is at
the model railroad club which includes a couple of ministers who know
what is appropriate and what isn't. There are also people with similar
interests I meet for brunch with, and do other things that we find
mutually interesting. Etc.
What scale do you model in? I used to do HO, because of the low cost
and availability of nice kits, but now I do L-Guage(Lego Trains)
British O-scale circa 1900. This 7mm/ft scale instead of the American
1/4" to the foot.
But I like trains so have some special models in a variety of scales.
Have you seen Warlord Steve's models? He builds lighthouses and has
some wonderful examples on his web page.
Hatter
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| User: "Hatter" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
19 Jun 2007 07:30:46 AM |
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On Jun 18, 3:27 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:18:36 -0700,Hatter<Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 18, 12:09 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:39:17 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
Big snip
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
Ok.
But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so.
????? Let me put my response to you this way -- Which would you rather
have ministering to you should your appendix get infected, a Witch
Doctor or Priest making incantations and rolling bones, or a skilled
sugeon who was an atheist? You have 5 seconds to reply.
I get my community from friends with the same interests, not from what
I'm not.
Atheists are individuals who happen not to be theist. And that's all
it takes.
So when I was hospitalised last year, it was friends and colleagues
from work who helped me when I needed it. A colleague who lives down
the road fed and watered the cats. My biggest local "community" is at
the model railroad club which includes a couple of ministers who know
what is appropriate and what isn't. There are also people with similar
interests I meet for brunch with, and do other things that we find
mutually interesting. Etc.
What scale do you model in? I used to do HO, because of the low cost
and availability of nice kits, but now I do L-Guage(Lego Trains)
British O-scale circa 1900. This 7mm/ft scale instead of the American
1/4" to the foot.
None the less most buildings and scenery are interchangable, even if
trains arent.
But I like trains so have some special models in a variety of scales.
Have you seen Warlord Steve's models? He builds lighthouses and has
some wonderful examples on his web page.
No I have not. I'm a duffer myself. I'm still putting the details on
a 1955 Hamburger and Pizza Googie style drive in, my most ambitous(non
kit) project to date. It includes the "exibition style cooking" as did
Biff's in California did, A cash register, pizza box storage, a
pinball machine, two booths, several tables and a tower sign with
"BOBS" written on it, with each letter on 4 seperate diamond shapes. I
haven't touched it for a few days, and am wondering about adding neon
trim.
Hatter
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Atheism a Religion? |
19 Jun 2007 07:50:44 AM |
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:30:46 -0700, Hatter <Hatter23@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 18, 3:27 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:18:36 -0700,Hatter<Hatte...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jun 18, 12:09 pm, Christopher A.Lee <c...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:39:17 -0700, t1gercat <wexford1...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Jun 18, 11:20 am, "jacobfor...@gmail.com" <jacobfor...@gmail.com>
wrote:
fromhttp://thegoodatheist.net/religion/06/18/is-atheism-a-religion/
As a writer, the appeal of discussing atheism stems largely from the
Big snip
Is atheism a religion? No, it quite obviously is not.
Ok.
But we must
understand that the question is really: "can atheism provide the same
comfort and support that religion does?" In its present form, it may
not be able to do so.
????? Let me put my response to you this way -- Which would you rather
have ministering to you should your appendix get infected, a Witch
Doctor or Priest making incantations and rolling bones, or a skilled
sugeon who was an atheist? You have 5 seconds to reply.
I get my community from friends with the same interests, not from what
I'm not.
Atheists are individuals who happen not to be theist. And that's all
it takes.
So when I was hospitalised last year, it was friends and colleagues
from work who helped me when I needed it. A colleague who lives down
the road fed and watered the cats. My biggest local "community" is at
the model railroad club which includes a couple of ministers who know
what is appropriate and what isn't. There are also people with similar
interests I meet for brunch with, and do other things that we find
mutually interesting. Etc.
What scale do you model in? I used to do HO, because of the low cost
and availability of nice kits, but now I do L-Guage(Lego Trains)
British O-scale circa 1900. This 7mm/ft scale instead of the American
1/4" to the foot.
None the less most buildings and scenery are interchangable, even if
trains arent.
Not really, the architecture and landscapes are different, especially
a century ago. Especially the railway architecture.
But I like trains so have some special models in a variety of scales.
Have you seen Warlord Steve's models? He builds lighthouses and has
some wonderful examples on his web page.
No I have not. I'm a duffer myself. I'm still putting the details on
a 1955 Hamburger and Pizza Googie style drive in, my most ambitous(non
kit) project to date. It includes the "exibition style cooking" as did
Biff's in California did, A cash register, pizza box storage, a
pinball machine, two booths, several tables and a | | | | | | |