| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Useful Info" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2007 08:44:47 AM |
| Object: |
Is atheism a religion? No. |
Ah, let me count the ways.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
08 Apr 2007 05:58:08 PM |
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On 6 Apr 2007 06:44:47 -0700, "Useful Info" <useful_inf@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ah, let me count the ways.
Aaah, but atheism IS a religion. . . those who believe that way
frequently believe it RELIGIOUSLY!
Checker
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
08 Apr 2007 06:20:26 PM |
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wrote in news:gqsi13dnf49hl9a5hd72uk35uoufas71f9@
4ax.com:
On 6 Apr 2007 06:44:47 -0700, "Useful Info" <useful_inf@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ah, let me count the ways.
Aaah, but atheism IS a religion. . . those who believe that way
frequently believe it RELIGIOUSLY!
And non-Jews believe in their non-Jewishness Jewishly?
Non-Muslims believe in their non-Muslimness Islamically?
That's what you're saying when you claim non-theists believe
theistically.
Do you realize how stupid you sound when you use words in ways that
contradict their meaning?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
"'Just say no' has done as much for drugs and sex as 'have a nice day'
has for depression."
-Dr. E. Tyson
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 07:50:17 AM |
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On 8 Apr, 23:20, Enkidu <fox_rgf...@trashmail.net> wrote:
chec...@flapper.com wrote:
Aaah, but atheism IS a religion. . . those who believe that way
frequently believe it RELIGIOUSLY!
And non-Jews believe in their non-Jewishness Jewishly?
Non-Muslims believe in their non-Muslimness Islamically?
That's what you're saying when you claim non-theists believe
theistically.
lol, that's such a funny and true response!
--
Vexen Crabtree
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
08 Apr 2007 07:01:49 PM |
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wrote:
On 6 Apr 2007 06:44:47 -0700, "Useful Info" <useful_inf@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ah, let me count the ways.
Aaah, but atheism IS a religion. . . those who believe that way
frequently believe it RELIGIOUSLY!
Checker
Incorrect. Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, not a belief in a
lack of a deity. Sorry, chum, but that's been tried in the past and
shot down.
But, do let me know when you take up the hobby of not collecting stamps.
:-)
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
08 Apr 2007 06:11:29 PM |
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On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:58:08 -0600, wrote:
On 6 Apr 2007 06:44:47 -0700, "Useful Info" <useful_inf@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Ah, let me count the ways.
Aaah, but atheism IS a religion. . . those who believe that way
frequently believe it RELIGIOUSLY!
Anybody who says that is deliberately lying to be nasty, because they
know it isn't, because it has none of the things which define their
own religion.
Checker
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| User: "Ronald More-More Moshki" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
07 Apr 2007 11:47:47 PM |
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On Apr 6, 9:44 am, "Useful Info" <useful_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah, let me count the ways.http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
Was hoping for a few more.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
08 Apr 2007 08:10:28 AM |
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On Apr 8, 2:47 pm, "Ronald 'More-More' Moshki" <sector_f...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Apr 6, 9:44 am, "Useful Info" <useful_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah, let me count the ways.http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
Was hoping for a few more.
As a Christian who thinks atheists have what might be called faith in
godlessness, just as I have faith in God as revealed in Christ, I
decided to look up the definition of Religion in my old "The Concise
Oxford Dictionary".
Some of the various applications related to a belief in a recognition
of a superhuman controlling power ... personal God or gods ....
effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude.
However there were a couple of phrases which I believe were applicable
to atheism ..
1. Particular system of faith .... The faith of many posters on this
site is atheism.
3. Thing that one is devoted to or is bound to do (eg. make a
religion of football). A lot of the posters here are devoted to
atheism.
Further down I found "religionism" - excessive religious zeal. When I
read some of the posts on this forum, it is difficult to escape the
conviction that some posters show excessive religious zeal for
atheism, whether or not they regard atheism as a religion.
In summary, it may not be a religion, but it sure is a system of
faith, and some of the adherents here are just as fanatical about
their atheism as any fundamentalist Christian or Moslem.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
08 Apr 2007 09:59:29 AM |
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Get an education.
There is quite a difference between black and white.
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
<bobcrowley@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1176037828.103834.302600@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 8, 2:47 pm, "Ronald 'More-More' Moshki" <sector_f...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
On Apr 6, 9:44 am, "Useful Info" <useful_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ah, let me count the
ways.http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
Was hoping for a few more.
As a Christian who thinks atheists have what might be called faith in
godlessness, just as I have faith in God as revealed in Christ, I
decided to look up the definition of Religion in my old "The Concise
Oxford Dictionary".
Some of the various applications related to a belief in a recognition
of a superhuman controlling power ... personal God or gods ....
effect of such recognition on conduct and mental attitude.
However there were a couple of phrases which I believe were applicable
to atheism ..
1. Particular system of faith .... The faith of many posters on this
site is atheism.
3. Thing that one is devoted to or is bound to do (eg. make a
religion of football). A lot of the posters here are devoted to
atheism.
Further down I found "religionism" - excessive religious zeal. When I
read some of the posts on this forum, it is difficult to escape the
conviction that some posters show excessive religious zeal for
atheism, whether or not they regard atheism as a religion.
In summary, it may not be a religion, but it sure is a system of
faith, and some of the adherents here are just as fanatical about
their atheism as any fundamentalist Christian or Moslem.
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| User: "Ron Peterson" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
09 Apr 2007 09:32:41 AM |
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On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
--
Ron
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 01:32:09 AM |
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On Apr 10, 12:32 am, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
Name three.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Mark.
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 07:08:11 AM |
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On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:32 am, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Mark.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful? Would you call yourself an
atheist theist and disappear in a puff of smoke?
Atheist means a lack of belief in God, and the term itself doesn't
specify *why* there is no believe in God, merely that there isn't.
--
Vexen Crabtree
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 07:39:15 PM |
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On Apr 10, 10:08 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:32 am, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Mark.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful?
Not sure - I think I will worry about it if it ever happens.
How it usually works is that if you honestly believe in X you convince
yourself X is a good thing.
Otherwise you are going to be a little ball of self loathing - which
is of course possible.
I hope it never happens to me.
Would you call yourself an
atheist theist and disappear in a puff of smoke?
I am not sure what I would call myself.
I think what I would be is confused and conflicted.
What people *call* themselves isnt always a good indication of what
they are.
Atheist means a lack of belief in God, and the term itself doesn't
specify *why* there is no believe in God, merely that there isn't.
Yes I agree completely.
Mark.
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 01:03:06 AM |
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On 11 Apr, 00:39, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:08 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful?
Not sure - I think I will worry about it if it ever happens.
It is important - you have expound a philosophical position (in this
case, that god doesn't exist), and have given a reason for it (that
god religions are harmful), but, I have just shown you that your
reason is defunct. That god religions are harmful doesn't have any
effect on whether there is a god or not. So you'd better start
worrying about it now!
How it usually works is that if you honestly believe in X you convince
yourself X is a good thing.
Well I believe that the Jewish Holocaust happened, but I haven't yet
convinced myself that this was a good thing.
Beliefs about reality don't require value judgements.
--
Vexen Crabtree
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/antisemitism.html
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 08:27:01 PM |
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On Apr 11, 4:03 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 11 Apr, 00:39, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:08 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful?
Not sure - I think I will worry about it if it ever happens.
It is important - you have expound a philosophical position (in this
case, that god doesn't exist), and have given a reason for it (that
god religions are harmful), but, I have just shown you that your
reason is defunct. That god religions are harmful doesn't have any
effect on whether there is a god or not. So you'd better start
worrying about it now!
Ah! I see whats happening.
We are talking about different things.
I do indeed think God is non existent - but that doesnt make me an
atheist.
I do indeed believe that Thor is non existent - but that doesnt make
me an atheist.
I dont believe in Gods existence AND I believe that worshiping gods is
harmful.
If you believe that believing in goids is a bad idea in principle then
it can motivate you to not worship (believe in) any gods at all.
Now you are using "believe in" to refer exclusively to "believing in
the existence of "- I was using "believe in" in the sense of "I
believe in Democracy" or "I believe in being kind to puppies." or "I
believe that space travel is the future of humanity".
When we say members of the Nazi party believed in Hitler - we mean
that they saw Hitler as some great man who was wortyhy of respect and
adoration - you can believe in the *existence* of Hitler and not be a
Nazi - but if you "believe in" Hitler you are a Nazi.
I dont believe in Hitler - but I believe he existed.
I dont believe in Jesus - I dont care whether or not he existed.
I dont believe in God - I also don't believe it exists.
I dont believe in the Divinity (god- hood) of Emperor Hirohito - I
believe he actually existed.
I dont believe in the Divinity (god- hood) of the Sun - I believe it
exists.
When I say I dont believe in gods - I am *primarily* saying that I
dont believe in gods in the same sense that I dont believe in Nazism -
that I think its a bad (unwise, foolish, dangerous) idea.
Whether or not something *exists* is a question of physics - a matter
of evidence - whether or not you *believe in* that something is a
matter of your ethics, your principles, your character and personality
- possibly even your religion.
If I ever start a religion one of its core priniples will be "Don't
ever make things into gods.".
How it usually works is that if you honestly believe in X you convince
yourself X is a good thing.
Well I believe that the Jewish Holocaust happened, but I haven't yet
convinced myself that this was a good thing.
You believe in the historical fact of the Jewish Holocaust but you
dont "believe in" exterminating Jews.
You are opposed to genocide in principle. I am opposed to worshiping
gods in principle.
Beliefs about reality don't require value judgements.
"The shape of the Earth approximated by an oblate spheroid" is a part
of reality - an objective fact.
"The earth is pretty" is my subjective opinion - and its also a part
of reality (that I think it).
"Worshiping beings as gods" is a bad idea is my subjective opinion -
its a part of reality that I have this subjective opinion.
8-)
Subjective belief's really matter - they can be what people live and
die and sometimes kill for.
Cheers, Mark.
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
12 Apr 2007 01:13:44 AM |
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On 12 Apr, 01:27, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 11, 4:03 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 11 Apr, 00:39, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:08 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful?
Not sure - I think I will worry about it if it ever happens.
It is important - you have expound a philosophical position (in this
case, that god doesn't exist), and have given a reason for it (that
god religions are harmful), but, I have just shown you that your
reason is defunct. That god religions are harmful doesn't have any
effect on whether there is a god or not. So you'd better start
worrying about it now!
Ah! I see whats happening.
We are talking about different things.
<snip>
you are using "believe in" to refer exclusively to "believing in
the existence of "- I was using "believe in" in the sense of "I
believe in Democracy" or "I believe in being kind to puppies." or "I
believe that space travel is the future of humanity".
Oh I see. Big difference in the possible two meanings of "believe"; I
almost never use the word "believe in" in the value-judgement sense.
<snip>
I dont believe in God - I also don't believe it exists.
OK, so (for the benefit of others!) part (1): You wouldn't believe in
God even if there was one, and (2) You also don't believe God(s?)
exist.
This is unquestionably atheist, by way of part (2).
<snip>
If I ever start a religion one of its core priniples will be "Don't
ever make things into gods.".
Historically, you stand zero chance of succeeding!
<snip>
Cheers, Mark.- Hide quoted text -
Well we don't disagree on anything!
--
Vexen Crabtree
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
12 Apr 2007 07:50:01 PM |
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On Apr 12, 4:13 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
Well we don't disagree on anything!
Bloody Hell!
Where is the Fun in that!
8-(
I came here for an argument!
Vexen Crabtreehttp://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html
Nice website - like your book recomendations they look particularly
interesting.
Cheers, Mark.
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 04:54:18 AM |
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On Apr 11, 8:39 am, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:08 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:32 am, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful?
Not sure - I think I will worry about it if it ever happens.
How it usually works is that if you honestly believe in X you convince
yourself X is a good thing.
Otherwise you are going to be a little ball of self loathing - which
is of course possible.
I hope it never happens to me.
Are there really people who belong to Satanic cults or is it just an
urban legend? Because I would like to know what their stand on
religion is. I would imagine that if I were to come to believe that
God and Satan were real then I wouldn't want to root for the diety
supposedly wiped out so much of humanity in a single flood. :P
Martin
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| User: "Toby A Inkster" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 11:09:28 AM |
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Martin Phipps wrote:
Are there really people who belong to Satanic cults or is it just an
urban legend?
I would imagine that most of them are quite tongue-in-cheek.
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 12:37:15 PM |
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On 11 Apr, 09:54, "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
Are there really people who belong to Satanic cults or is it just an
urban legend? Because I would like to know what their stand on
religion is. I would imagine that if I were to come to believe that
God and Satan were real then I wouldn't want to root for the diety
supposedly wiped out so much of humanity in a single flood. :P
Some guys here are going to roll their eyes that you ask about that on
a thread that I'm reading!
Satanists generally completely agree with your point about the flood;
most Satanists look at the God of the Bible with enough abhorrence
that they reject God with such ferocity that they consider themselves
to have embraced Satan. Now, they hold this as their symbolic patron
saint whether or not they actually believe in God and Satan.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_evilgod.html gives you an
idea of where they're coming from, in case you haven't read such
collections on the "evil verses" from a critic such as myself.
Going further than merely "if the God of the Bible is real, it is
evil, therefore I reject it", is another page by myself (I am a
Satanist). Not only is the Biblical god evil (if it is real), but, ANY
existent monotheistic god is evil (if there are any).
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html -> If there is a God, it is Evil
The biggest 'Satanic cult' is the Church of Satan, and its take on
religion is that all religion is a load of bunk (and that there is no
god and no satan), but that nonetheless the archetype of Satan is the
best patron we can have. The Church of Satan is founded by Anton
Lavey, and in his Satanic Bible (1967), the most basic tenet of its
beliefs is laid out clearly:
"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast.
Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy!
Here and now is our opportunity! Choose ye this day, this hour, for no
redeemer liveth!"
The Satanic Bible: The Book of Satan IV:2
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/modern.html is a brief description of Satanism.
Martin
Such atheistic Satanism is the reality, but is far from what most
people mean when they say "Satanic cult".
Satanism is, in short, an anti-religion religion, and many of its
adherents do not describe themselves as "religion" and call Satanism a
philosophy.
Anyway, all the above is clearly evidence that anyone who attempts to
study religion must sooner or later lose their sanity, or give up.
--
Vexen Crabtree
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/dictionary.html
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 10:28:00 PM |
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On Apr 12, 1:37 am, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 11 Apr, 09:54, "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
Are there really people who belong to Satanic cults or is it just an
urban legend?
atheistic Satanism is the reality, but is far from what most
people mean when they say "Satanic cult".
So the short answer is "No." I would argue that Christians are the
real Satanists because they actually believe that Satan exists and
that he is powerful enough to defy their god.
Martin
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
12 Apr 2007 09:24:52 AM |
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On 12 Apr, 03:28, "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 12, 1:37 am, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 11 Apr, 09:54, "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
Are there really people who belong to Satanic cults or is it just an
urban legend?
atheistic Satanism is the reality, but is far from what most
people mean when they say "Satanic cult".
So the short answer is "No." I would argue that Christians are the
real Satanists because they actually believe that Satan exists and
that he is powerful enough to defy their god.
I dunno - Hindus are Hindus no matter which particular Hindu deity is
their favourite, and Christians are still Christians no matter of the
Christian beings they worship - God, Jesus, Mary... Satan, etc. Just
because one of the choices is very unpopular doesn't mean that in
order to believe "Satan exists and that he is powerful enough to defy
their god" is Christian theology through and through; I prefer to call
Christian devil worshippers "Christians who worship the Devil" or
something like that, just like I'd say a "Hindu who lives in a town
where Shiva is worshipped" or something. Hindus are the real Hindus
and Christians are the real Christians!
To say "Muslims are the real Christians" or "Hindus are the real
Buddhists" is just plain confusing!
Satanists are those few denominations linked with the Church of Satan,
since its founding in 1967. Before that time, believe it or not, no-
one had ever used the word "Satanist". Some devil worshippers, some
occultists, some diabolicists (so-named by their protagonists), etc...
but no Satanists before 1967. Unfortunately, the term "Satanist" is
rather striking, so it hit the public imagination quicker than its
actual meaning could keep up.
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/christianity.html -> Satanism is Not Part of
Christianity.
--
Vexen Crabtree
http://www.dpjs.co.uk/dictionary.html
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| User: "aversiveness" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
12 Apr 2007 01:29:17 PM |
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On Apr 11, 5:54 am, "Martin Phipps" <martinphip...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Apr 11, 8:39 am, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 10:08 pm, "Vexen Crabtree" <v...@vexen.co.uk> wrote:
On 10 Apr, 06:32, "Richo" <m.richard...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
On Apr 10, 12:32 am, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
Atheism is based on different things for different people.
I think *god* religions are harmful to people -and so thats a valid
reason to be an atheist - if you feel the need for a reason.
Er, so what would happen if you started believing in God, but you
still knew that religions were harmful?
Not sure - I think I will worry about it if it ever happens.
How it usually works is that if you honestly believe in X you convince
yourself X is a good thing.
Otherwise you are going to be a little ball of self loathing - which
is of course possible.
I hope it never happens to me.
Are there really people who belong to Satanic cults or is it just an
urban legend? Because I would like to know what their stand on
religion is. I would imagine that if I were to come to believe that
God and Satan were real then I wouldn't want to root for the diety
supposedly wiped out so much of humanity in a single flood. :P
Martin
Billing on sign outside ancient church temple:
The role of 'Satan' in this week's morality play will be played by
<insert name of competing diety from rival clan>.....
'Satan' has been an amorphous fellow. More names than Septic.
Samael. Lucifer. Baezelbub. Lucien Morningstar. Etc.,etc. Rebel
against predetestination, fighting for free will? Or corrupter of
souls, the Serpent in the Garden? One man's light bringer is another
man's prince of lies.
"I'm just a soul who's intentions are good! Oh Lord, please don't let
me be misunderstood!"
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| User: "Martin Phipps" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 03:16:22 AM |
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On Apr 9, 10:32 pm, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
The evidence is that gods come from our imagination and the Christian
(or Islamic) god is no different than Zeus in this regard.
Consider the fact that thoudands of years ago the Christian
god was just a god amongst many. (See http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html
or
http://www.usfca.edu/westciv/Sumerian.html or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sumerian_gods or
http://www.geocities.com/garyweb65/sumgods.html or
http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html#A1.3.1 or look up
the word "Elohim" on http://www.wikipedia.org .) Thousands of
years ago, God was known as "An" or the "Sky God" of Sumerian
mythology. We know this because the Bible claims Abraham came from
Ur which was located in Sumer. (See http://www.earthhistory.org.uk/
)
According to http://www.stevesdinner.plus.com/swd17.htm ,
"Orthodox tradition represents Abraham as a member of a Semitic tribe
from Ur. He probably spoke Akkadian, and the Akkadian counterparts of
the Sumerian gods Enki, An, Enlil, Utu, Nanna, and Inanna would have
been known to Abraham as Ea, Anu, Bel, Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar.
Abraham's tribe left Ur and travelled to Harran in southeastern
Turkey."
There's also the similarity between Sumerian mythology and the Bible:
in Sumerian mythology, the first man was named Adapa! Later the
world was destroyed by An in a great flood from which there was only
one
survivor who survived by building a boat that carried him, his family
and all their animals! These similarities are pointed out on
http://www.historel.net/english/orient/03mesop.htm which is a theist
site that doesn't seem to mind admitting the similarity between the
Bible and other mythology! Yet it still refers to "God" as if he
actually existed!
Besides mentioning that Abraham came from Ur in Sumer, the Bible also
mentions the city of Babylon and the "Tower of Babel" that was
supposedly built there. The Babylonians were hated by the Hebrews
and to this day "to babble" means to speak nonsense. The Garden of
Eden was also located in Sumer according to Genesis 2:10-14:
"And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it
was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is
Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where
there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium
and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the
same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. And the name
of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the
east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates."
The Euphrates river ran through Sumer, which is now Iraq.
It is worth noting that http://www.earthhistory.org.uk/
is actually a theist site! They refer to Anu as " the one God" but
claim that "Ea" and "Bel" were just other names for the same god.
This contradicts the fact that Anu, Ea and Bel were worshipped
separately in Sumer as three distinct Gods. (Anu was the god of the
sky, Bel was the god of wind and Ea was the god of water. Sumerian
mythology claimed that humans were created by Ea.)
According to http://www.crystalinks.com/sumergods.html
"Enki unraveled the secrets of life and death. His emblem was two
serpents ... entwined on a staff - the basis for the winged caduceus
symbol used by modern Western medicine." As Ea was the god of
knowledge, was the guardian of the "Tree of Life" in Sumerian
mythology and he was symbolized by a snake, it stands to reason that
the snake in the myth of the garden of Eden represented Ea. Bel was
similarly hated by Hebrews: according to the old testament, God told
the Hebrews to kill worshippers of "Baal" if they didn't obey his
first commandment to "not have other gods before Him".
What is interesting is that theists today are willing to accept that
their god was the god An of Sumer but they don't see why this should
be a challenge to faith.
( http://www.christianblog.com/blog/thomas/abram-was-from-sumer-after-all/
) An was the most powerful god in Sumerian mythology and hence it is
understandable that Abraham would choose him as the "one true god"
and dismiss all the others but then the question would be if Anu
(God) exists then what about all the other gods.
So God is just a myth created by man to explain the world around him
and give him comfort. If that's not good enough for you, consider
the fact that God had been used in the past to explain everything
from
storms to floods to earthquakes to volcanic eruptions but that we now
have scientific explanations for all of these calamities and thus
don't need to use any gods (let alone God) to explain them.
The fact is that scientists can perform measurements today that agree
with the predictions of quantum theory to ten digit precision and
accuracy. The so called "God of the gaps" has become so
infinitessimally small that we can feel confident that it doesn't
exist at all.
Martin
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| User: "Cavello" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 07:57:05 AM |
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On Apr 9, 3:32 pm, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
I'd like to hear some examples. Every religion I've heard of speaks of
some kind of supernatural power that some person is alleged to have,
often described in some old book or other. Then again, I haven't
examined all the religions that are out there, so I'd be very
interested in hearing about a religion that doesn't require faith,
i.e. that doesn't involve belief in some thing or other in the absense
of evidence for same.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
No it's not. It's simply a lack of belief in religion. Nothing more,
nothing less. I'm an atheist, and I don't actually think religion is
all that harmful. I just don't believe in it.
--
Ron
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 09:25:02 AM |
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Cavello wrote:
On Apr 9, 3:32 pm, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
I'd like to hear some examples. Every religion I've heard of speaks of
some kind of supernatural power that some person is alleged to have,
often described in some old book or other. Then again, I haven't
examined all the religions that are out there, so I'd be very
interested in hearing about a religion that doesn't require faith,
i.e. that doesn't involve belief in some thing or other in the absense
of evidence for same.
Careful with the wording there. Most religions don't ask people to
accept things on blind faith (belief in something with no evidence for
it.) Many religious people would say they have LOTS of evidence for
their beliefs and nothing is taken on faith at all. The whole problem is
that what they see as evidence is either totally subjective or it's
objective but simply not evidence of what they think it is. But they
still don't believe based on faith (but simply on poorly applied logic.)
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| User: "Cavello" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
11 Apr 2007 04:54:09 PM |
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On Apr 10, 3:25 pm, Mike <prabb...@shamrocksgf.com> wrote:
Cavellowrote:
On Apr 9, 3:32 pm, "Ron Peterson" <r...@shell.core.com> wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
I'd like to hear some examples. Every religion I've heard of speaks of
some kind of supernatural power that some person is alleged to have,
often described in some old book or other. Then again, I haven't
examined all the religions that are out there, so I'd be very
interested in hearing about a religion that doesn't require faith,
i.e. that doesn't involve belief in some thing or other in the absense
of evidence for same.
Careful with the wording there. Most religions don't ask people to
accept things on blind faith (belief in something with no evidence for
it.) Many religious people would say they have LOTS of evidence for
their beliefs and nothing is taken on faith at all. The whole problem is
that what they see as evidence is either totally subjective or it's
objective but simply not evidence of what they think it is. But they
still don't believe based on faith (but simply on poorly applied logic.)
I see what you're saying. Quite true. I suppose my point of view comes
from having been raised a Catholic and the ludicrous case of doubting
Thomas. Every time we were told that story in religion class at
school, the teacher would positively sneer at stupid old Thomas for
not believing that Jesus, the guy who was nailed to a cross only a
short while beforehand, and then *buried* when he *died*, was now in
fact alive again and dropping round to see them all when he was down
the pub. Stupid disloyal Thomas. Even as a kid, I simply couldn't stop
myself from piping up "But from his point of view, even though
according to the Bible he ended up looking slightly foolish when Jesus
appeared before him, surely you couldn't blame him for not believing
such a story unless he saw for himself?" The teacher's reply was "But
if you can say that about him, then what's to stop you saying it about
yourself also? Why believe?" As a kid, that consequence was
unthinkable. That's why we were told faith was so vital.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
09 Apr 2007 09:53:38 PM |
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Ron Peterson wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
That's not correct, either. Atheism is the lack of belief in deities
(being the negation (but not the negative) of theism).
The word you're looking for is "antitheism".
--
Ron
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "Vexen Crabtree" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 07:33:24 AM |
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On 10 Apr, 02:53, DanielSan <daniel-...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Ron Peterson wrote:
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
That's not correct, either. Atheism is the lack of belief in deities
(being the negation (but not the negative) of theism).
The word you're looking for is "antitheism".
Good distinction. Antithests are much easier to find - like ranting
fundamentalists are easier to hear than the average, mild liberal
Christians.
--
Vexen Crabtree, a ranting atheist.
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/atheism.html
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 01:37:28 AM |
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On Apr 10, 12:53 pm, DanielSan <daniel-...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Ron Peterson wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
That's not correct, either.
I would say "Thats not correct for everyone".
There are different ways to end up godless.
Atheism is the lack of belief in deities
(being the negation (but not the negative) of theism).
The word you're looking for is "antitheism".
Careful about mindreading - it gets you in trouble.
"The card you are thinking of is the Ace of Spades"
8-)
Mark.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism a religion? No. |
10 Apr 2007 11:42:18 AM |
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"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1176187048.614814.292200@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 10, 12:53 pm, DanielSan <daniel-...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
Ron Peterson wrote:
On Apr 8, 9:59 am, "Bill M" <w...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Religion is based on pure faith with NO objective verifiable evidence.
No. Many religions don't require faith.
Atheism is based on objective verifiable evidence that NO gods exist.
No. There isn't any such evidence. Atheism is based on the idea that
religion is harmful to people.
That's not correct, either.
I would say "Thats not correct for everyone".
And you'd still be incorrect. Atheism is the lack of belief in god(s).
There are different ways to end up godless.
Like everyone, I was born that way.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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