| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
| Date: |
29 Jun 2004 11:21:43 PM |
| Object: |
Is atheism anti-semitic? |
Is atheism anti-semitic?
As a member of a minority persecuted on religious
grounds, I am sensitive to other's beliefs.
I am all for freedom of thought.
I don't care what you believe about deities
as long as you believe in equal rights and
the equality of human kind.
The problem is that most religions (Buddhism
perhaps being an acception) contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
That is bigotry.
I enjoy skewering those who would claim
such status, regardless of their religion.
If one challenges the posed unique moral or divine
status of a group one can expect reprobration.
If one levels the challenge at Judaism, a charge
of anti-semitism seems assured.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
Is anti-semitism racism?
Is atheistic disbelief in the tenets of
Judaism anti-semitic?
--
RB
aa#2187
.
|
|
| User: "Lars Eighner" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 08:34:38 PM |
|
|
In our last episode,
<40E60A40.3B97C1B3@worldnet.att.net>,
the lovely and talented Roy Jose Lorr
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E50767.A13A5D1B@worldnet.att.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
Some fear of religion and some religious people is
rational.
On what grounds?
Most religions contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
The problem comes when they take that
seriously and persecute others because of it.
Do you think the morals you construct for yourself are
superior to those made by religions?
Of course not. The moral standards promulgated by
those who invent religions are inferior to those
which follow from common sense and reason.
The inferiority of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,
as it happens is clearly illustrated in the story of
Abraham and Isaac/Ishmael, showing that all three religions
are morally bankrupt.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner, ULC, Atheist #1965 http://www.io.com/~eighner
"I hope I never get so old I get religious." --Ingmar Bergman
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:14:34 AM |
|
|
Lars Eighner wrote:
In our last episode,
<40E60A40.3B97C1B3@worldnet.att.net>,
the lovely and talented Roy Jose Lorr
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E50767.A13A5D1B@worldnet.att.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
Some fear of religion and some religious people is
rational.
On what grounds?
Most religions contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
The problem comes when they take that
seriously and persecute others because of it.
Do you think the morals you construct for yourself are
superior to those made by religions?
Of course not. The moral standards promulgated by
those who invent religions are inferior to those
which follow from common sense and reason.
Examples, if you please?
The inferiority of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,
as it happens is clearly illustrated in the story of
Abraham and Isaac/Ishmael, showing that all three religions
are morally bankrupt.
How does the moral lesson in the story (I assume you mean the near
sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham) show that Judaism is bankrupt?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Lars Eighner" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 05:12:42 AM |
|
|
In our last episode,
<40E79282.A493B599@worldnet.att.net>,
the lovely and talented Roy Jose Lorr
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Lars Eighner wrote:
In our last episode,
<40E60A40.3B97C1B3@worldnet.att.net>,
the lovely and talented Roy Jose Lorr
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E50767.A13A5D1B@worldnet.att.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
Some fear of religion and some religious people is
rational.
On what grounds?
Most religions contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
The problem comes when they take that
seriously and persecute others because of it.
Do you think the morals you construct for yourself are
superior to those made by religions?
Of course not. The moral standards promulgated by
those who invent religions are inferior to those
which follow from common sense and reason.
Examples, if you please?
For example: making a moral issue of whether garments are
made of blended fabrics -- clearly silly beyond words.
The inferiority of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,
as it happens is clearly illustrated in the story of
Abraham and Isaac/Ishmael, showing that all three religions
are morally bankrupt.
How does the moral lesson in the story (I assume you mean the near
sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham) show that Judaism is bankrupt?
Because it based on the *willingness* of a parent to kill a child
because of a hallucination. That willingness is portrayed as
commendable, rather than reprehensible. All the religions which
share this story are thereby shown to be moral bankrupt.
--
Rev. Lars Eighner, ULC, Atheist #1965 http://www.io.com/~eighner
"I hope I never get so old I get religious." --Ingmar Bergman
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 01:37:55 PM |
|
|
Lars Eighner wrote:
In our last episode,
<40E79282.A493B599@worldnet.att.net>,
the lovely and talented Roy Jose Lorr
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Lars Eighner wrote:
In our last episode,
<40E60A40.3B97C1B3@worldnet.att.net>,
the lovely and talented Roy Jose Lorr
broadcast on alt.atheism:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E50767.A13A5D1B@worldnet.att.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
Some fear of religion and some religious people is
rational.
On what grounds?
Most religions contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
The problem comes when they take that
seriously and persecute others because of it.
Do you think the morals you construct for yourself are
superior to those made by religions?
Of course not. The moral standards promulgated by
those who invent religions are inferior to those
which follow from common sense and reason.
Examples, if you please?
For example: making a moral issue of whether garments are
made of blended fabrics -- clearly silly beyond words.
Their is nothing silly about the moral implications of separating
unlike things. It is the basis upon which the universe works.
The inferiority of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam,
as it happens is clearly illustrated in the story of
Abraham and Isaac/Ishmael, showing that all three religions
are morally bankrupt.
How does the moral lesson in the story (I assume you mean the near
sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham) show that Judaism is bankrupt?
Because it based on the *willingness* of a parent to kill a child
because of a hallucination. That willingness is portrayed as
commendable, rather than reprehensible. All the religions which
share this story are thereby shown to be moral bankrupt.
You miss entirely the moral of the story which is that human sacrifice
is no longer acceptable no matter which of the gods calls for it.
Incidentally, "hallucination" is a poor choice of word. I personally
don't believe it but it has been argued (quite effectively) that all we
perceive is hallucination.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 01:44:42 AM |
|
|
Fester wrote:
I am an atheist and I am Jewish
For shame.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 12:05:57 AM |
|
|
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
As a member of a minority persecuted on religious
grounds, I am sensitive to other's beliefs.
I am all for freedom of thought.
I don't care what you believe about deities
as long as you believe in equal rights and
the equality of human kind.
The problem is that most religions (Buddhism
perhaps being an acception) contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
That is bigotry.
I enjoy skewering those who would claim
such status, regardless of their religion.
If one challenges the posed unique moral or divine
status of a group one can expect reprobration.
If one levels the challenge at Judaism, a charge
of anti-semitism seems assured.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
Is anti-semitism racism?
Is atheistic disbelief in the tenets of
Judaism anti-semitic?
Good questions.
The issue is a horrible morass, fraught with provocative words that almost
guarantee emotional appeals rather than reasoned discussion.
It is said that generalizations are bad, yet how can one not generalize
about a group of people that all insist they believe the same thing? We are
often told our generalizations about christians are unfounded, but that's
not really true because it's founded on their own claims that they all
follow the teachings of the same damn book. If one says something about what
their book says, I can only grant that the book must say that because they
are in a position to know, and I'm not. So now I have to assume that other
Christians agree since they're all following the same book, and now I have a
founded generalization.
Oddly, they rarely agree. Which is very confusing, and naturally they claim
it's our fault for generalizing. Our fault for innocently assuming that a
group of people who all call themselves by the same name and all claim to be
following the same teachings, would actually agree on the teachings.
Sigh.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 10:31:38 AM |
|
|
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:boCdnSk8RJwz13_dRVn-hA@io.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
As a member of a minority persecuted on religious
grounds, I am sensitive to other's beliefs.
I am all for freedom of thought.
I don't care what you believe about deities
as long as you believe in equal rights and
the equality of human kind.
The problem is that most religions (Buddhism
perhaps being an acception) contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
That is bigotry.
I enjoy skewering those who would claim
such status, regardless of their religion.
If one challenges the posed unique moral or divine
status of a group one can expect reprobration.
If one levels the challenge at Judaism, a charge
of anti-semitism seems assured.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
Is anti-semitism racism?
Is atheistic disbelief in the tenets of
Judaism anti-semitic?
Good questions.
The issue is a horrible morass, fraught with provocative words that almost
guarantee emotional appeals rather than reasoned discussion.
It is said that generalizations are bad, yet how can one not generalize
about a group of people that all insist they believe the same thing? We
are
often told our generalizations about christians are unfounded, but that's
not really true because it's founded on their own claims that they all
follow the teachings of the same damn book. If one says something about
what
their book says, I can only grant that the book must say that because they
are in a position to know, and I'm not.
Hmm. The various "holy" books are published.
Anybody can read them. They can be referenced.
If someone says something is in the book you can
ask for a reference.
So now I have to assume that other
Christians agree since they're all following the same book,
I don't see that reading the same book necessarily leads to
general agreement.
and now I have a
founded generalization.
Oddly, they rarely agree. Which is very confusing, and naturally they
claim
it's our fault for generalizing. Our fault for innocently assuming that a
group of people who all call themselves by the same name and all claim to
be
following the same teachings, would actually agree on the teachings.
Sigh.
Everybody is different. When speaking you are speaking
to an individual or individuals. I like to ask questions first.
If unsure of an assumption, I like to ask questions.
--
RB
aa#2187
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 11:15:22 AM |
|
|
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:u1BEc.26327$Fy.14205@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:boCdnSk8RJwz13_dRVn-hA@io.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
As a member of a minority persecuted on religious
grounds, I am sensitive to other's beliefs.
I am all for freedom of thought.
I don't care what you believe about deities
as long as you believe in equal rights and
the equality of human kind.
The problem is that most religions (Buddhism
perhaps being an acception) contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
That is bigotry.
I enjoy skewering those who would claim
such status, regardless of their religion.
If one challenges the posed unique moral or divine
status of a group one can expect reprobration.
If one levels the challenge at Judaism, a charge
of anti-semitism seems assured.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
Is anti-semitism racism?
Is atheistic disbelief in the tenets of
Judaism anti-semitic?
Good questions.
The issue is a horrible morass, fraught with provocative words that
almost
guarantee emotional appeals rather than reasoned discussion.
It is said that generalizations are bad, yet how can one not generalize
about a group of people that all insist they believe the same thing? We
are
often told our generalizations about christians are unfounded, but
that's
not really true because it's founded on their own claims that they all
follow the teachings of the same damn book. If one says something about
what
their book says, I can only grant that the book must say that because
they
are in a position to know, and I'm not.
Hmm. The various "holy" books are published.
Anybody can read them. They can be referenced.
If someone says something is in the book you can
ask for a reference.
Well, many of them insist that you have to believe what's in the book in
order to understand what's in the book. That leaves me out.
So now I have to assume that other
Christians agree since they're all following the same book,
I don't see that reading the same book necessarily leads to
general agreement.
Umm, didn't you just get finished saying that the books can be referenced?
;-)
Many Christians claim the message is clear to all Christians.
and now I have a
founded generalization.
Oddly, they rarely agree. Which is very confusing, and naturally they
claim
it's our fault for generalizing. Our fault for innocently assuming that
a
group of people who all call themselves by the same name and all claim
to
be
following the same teachings, would actually agree on the teachings.
Sigh.
Everybody is different. When speaking you are speaking
to an individual or individuals. I like to ask questions first.
If unsure of an assumption, I like to ask questions.
But doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of a group identity? Why have a
word like Christian if it's not supposed to say something about the members
of that group?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBlM?=" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 12:12:51 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet a écrit :
But doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of a group identity? Why have a
word like Christian if it's not supposed to say something about the members
of that group?
Are you talking of the atheists here?
If it's the case, they are in general a group define by a lack of
membership to any religious group. There is no purpose of identity for
this group. It exists in reaction to the other ones. There is no clergy
nor leader, even if inside this population some will create sub-groups
with funny names.
So if you want to talk about atheists, you have to see them as
individuals, with different experiences and view of the world. There is
no 'Book of Truth' on what is based the non-belief of an atheist.
So asking if they are anti-semitic is like asking if bald people don't
like blond hair.
MichaëlM
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 02:21:11 PM |
|
|
"MichaëlM" <monzo@free.fr> wrote in message
news:40e2f492$0$10624$626a14ce@news.free.fr...
Denis Loubet a écrit :
But doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of a group identity? Why have
a
word like Christian if it's not supposed to say something about the
members
of that group?
Are you talking of the atheists here?
No, I'm talking about Christians.
If it's the case, they are in general a group define by a lack of
membership to any religious group. There is no purpose of identity for
this group. It exists in reaction to the other ones. There is no clergy
nor leader, even if inside this population some will create sub-groups
with funny names.
So if you want to talk about atheists, you have to see them as
individuals, with different experiences and view of the world. There is
no 'Book of Truth' on what is based the non-belief of an atheist.
Correct. But the same cannot be said for Christians. They DO have a supposed
'Book of Truth', so we should be justified in our assumptions about
Christians in general based on that book. But for some reason, that's not
allowed.
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
So asking if they are anti-semitic is like asking if bald people don't
like blond hair.
Perfect! ;-)
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 10:44:39 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 12:56:46 AM |
|
|
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about
atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
What idiot told you that?
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 01:32:21 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about
atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
What idiot told you that?
Atheist denial tells me that.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Denis Loubet" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 02:22:03 PM |
|
|
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E458FA.14E5F716@worldnet.att.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about
atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with
that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a
religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a
being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated
religious
fundamentalists in the world.
What idiot told you that?
Atheist denial tells me that.
You just keep that well poisoned. That way you don't have to think.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 10:10:15 PM |
|
|
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E458FA.14E5F716@worldnet.att.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about
atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with
that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a
religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a
being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated
religious
fundamentalists in the world.
What idiot told you that?
Atheist denial tells me that.
You just keep that well poisoned. That way you don't have to think.
I am, therefore I think.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "jwk" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 11:01:55 AM |
|
|
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net>...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
Sorry, we all recognize that bit of typical, theistic, knee-jerk
hatred for the non-believer. Not original and not new. Your type
cannot accept that atheists are not defined by your hatred of us. It
just makes you mad, doesn't it.
jwk
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 01:30:20 PM |
|
|
jwk wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net>...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
Sorry, we all recognize that bit of typical, theistic, knee-jerk
hatred for the non-believer. Not original and not new. Your type
cannot accept that atheists are not defined by your hatred of us. It
just makes you mad, doesn't it.
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself. There's only one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you believe
has never existed, doesn't exist. That sort of dysfunctional thinking is rubber
room stuff. Deny to your heart's content but that's one jerked knee stuck in your
craw that medication isn't going to help remove.
Incidentally, religions are man made, I follow none of them.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Desdinova" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 01:40:12 PM |
|
|
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E45881.4D3ACC2E@worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an
autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself. There's only
one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you
believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
Atheism is not a religion. There is no deity in Atheism. We worship nothing.
We appreciate human achievement and the pursuit of knowlege.
That sort of dysfunctional thinking is rubber
room stuff.
Dysfunction thinking is where there is an invisible omnicient, omnipotent,
omibenevolent god for which there is absolutely no evidence.
Deny to your heart's content but that's one jerked knee stuck in your
craw that medication isn't going to help remove.
You missed the craw by several yards.
Incidentally, religions are man made, I follow none of them.
Gods are man made, we follow none of them.
--
Desdinova aa #2182
EAC Director of Separation of Church and Brain
There are none so blind as those who view life filtered
through the stained glass of church windows.
"Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human
nature that it does not believe a man can tell the truth
unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion
of the human race has ever been expressed."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
.
|
|
|
| User: "ArWeGod" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 07:14:08 PM |
|
|
"Desdinova" <desdinova@nodamnspam.com> wrote in message
news:gUYEc.177245$DG4.52669@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E45881.4D3ACC2E@worldnet.att.net...
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an
autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself. There's only
one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you
believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
Atheism is not a religion. There is no deity in Atheism. We worship
nothing.
We appreciate human achievement and the pursuit of knowlege.
Um.. I don't...
The Indigenous People of the land mass now called the USA had it right: live
short brutal lives, wear a lot of fur, steal a wife from a passing tribe.
The bear and the wolf are our brothers.
--
ArWeMammals
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Eric Pepke" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 07:07:05 PM |
|
|
"Desdinova" <desdinova@nodamnspam.com> wrote in message news:<gUYEc.177245$DG4.52669@fe2.columbus.rr.com>...
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E45881.4D3ACC2E@worldnet.att.net...
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an
autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself. There's only
one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you
believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
Atheism is not a religion. There is no deity in Atheism. We worship nothing.
We appreciate human achievement and the pursuit of knowlege.
I understand what you are saying, but it is something that I don't think
can be explained. You and I may see this as a rather vapid straw man,
but that's because we can at least understand both atheist and theist
concepts. We can imagine a world with a god or gods in it and also a
world with no god or gods in it. We have decided upon the latter, or
at minimum do not see compelling evidence for the former, but at
least we can imagine or apprehend the worldview of theists.
The converse is not true. One of the things that alt.atheism has taught
me over the years is that a substantial number of theists (it's hard to tell
if it's a majority or not) simply cannot apprehend the possibility of no
gods. The belief in a god or gods is so central to their being that they
simply cannot imagine no gods, even as a concept. They just lack the
mental facility to do so.
Since, to them, a god must exist, they can only apprehend atheism by
assuming that it's some sort of usurpation of god's, for want of a better
word, "job description." This job description variously includes defining
ethics and morality, punishing people for transgressions, offering dating
advice, etc. What it includes varies amongst theists, but whatever it
includes, it is believed in. Since it seems self-evident that these jobs
need to be done, to them atheists must necessarily be "making themselves
gods." I know it seems incredibly stupid, and I think it reasonable to
declare that it is, but it's not the stupidity of choosing ineffective
rhetorical tactics; it's an inherent limitation of their brains.
In a way, it's like a two-year-old. If I want to give a two-year-old some
sort of information in the hopes that he and/or she will not stick
paperclips into a wall socket, I'm not about to talk about how the
sinus and AV nodes in the heart operate by sending electrochemical
signals to each other and operate in a way that can be modeled by
coupled differential equations, and that this system runs chaotically,
and while the normal mode is an attractor that corresponds to regular
beats of the heart, a portion of this attractor results in irregular signals
of too high a frequency to cause beats but merely a sort of twitching,
and that this results in injury or death by stopping the flow of blood,
and that wall current has enough voltage to push enough current
through body resistance to change which portion of the attractor
is being followed.
No, I'm gonna say "hot," because it's one of the first ten words that
children learn, and they know it involves something that is undesirable.
Like a two-year-old that cannot understand anything except in
reference to "hot," many theists cannot understand anything except
in reference to "God."
I suggest H.L. Mencken's advice: one good belly-laugh is worth a
thousand syllogisms.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 10:52:11 PM |
|
|
Eric Pepke wrote:
"Desdinova" <desdinova@nodamnspam.com> wrote in message news:<gUYEc.177245$DG4.52669@fe2.columbus.rr.com>...
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E45881.4D3ACC2E@worldnet.att.net...
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an
autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself. There's only
one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you
believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
Atheism is not a religion. There is no deity in Atheism. We worship nothing.
We appreciate human achievement and the pursuit of knowlege.
I understand what you are saying, but it is something that I don't think
can be explained. You and I may see this as a rather vapid straw man,
but that's because we can at least understand both atheist and theist
concepts.
You understand neither. You fear both.
We can imagine a world with a god or gods in it and also a
world with no god or gods in it. We have decided upon the latter, or
at minimum do not see compelling evidence for the former, but at
least we can imagine or apprehend the worldview of theists.
Do you see any compelling evidence for the latter?... Haw.
The converse is not true. One of the things that alt.atheism has taught
me over the years is that a substantial number of theists (it's hard to tell
if it's a majority or not) simply cannot apprehend the possibility of no
gods. The belief in a god or gods is so central to their being that they
simply cannot imagine no gods, even as a concept. They just lack the
mental facility to do so.
Narrow minded intolerance, complying with the most rabid religious
fundamentalist thinking.
Since, to them, a god must exist, they can only apprehend atheism by
assuming that it's some sort of usurpation of god's, for want of a better
word, "job description." This job description variously includes defining
ethics and morality, punishing people for transgressions, offering dating
advice, etc. What it includes varies amongst theists, but whatever it
includes, it is believed in. Since it seems self-evident that these jobs
need to be done, to them atheists must necessarily be "making themselves
gods." I know it seems incredibly stupid, and I think it reasonable to
declare that it is, but it's not the stupidity of choosing ineffective
rhetorical tactics; it's an inherent limitation of their brains.
Do you actually read what you write? You convict yourself of religious
fundamentalism with every stroke. You're either operating under an
extremely 'limited brain' or you are the essence of disingenuity... I opt
for the former.
In a way, it's like a two-year-old. If I want to give a two-year-old some
sort of information in the hopes that he and/or she will not stick
paperclips into a wall socket, I'm not about to talk about how the
sinus and AV nodes in the heart operate by sending electrochemical
signals to each other and operate in a way that can be modeled by
coupled differential equations, and that this system runs chaotically,
and while the normal mode is an attractor that corresponds to regular
beats of the heart, a portion of this attractor results in irregular signals
of too high a frequency to cause beats but merely a sort of twitching,
and that this results in injury or death by stopping the flow of blood,
and that wall current has enough voltage to push enough current
through body resistance to change which portion of the attractor
is being followed.
Show off.
No, I'm gonna say "hot," because it's one of the first ten words that
children learn, and they know it involves something that is undesirable.
You mean like God.
Like a two-year-old that cannot understand anything except in
reference to "hot," many theists cannot understand anything except
in reference to "God."
At least theists have an objective reference. Atheists have only
delusions of self grandeur.
I suggest H.L. Mencken's advice: one good belly-laugh is worth a
thousand syllogisms.
Nervous laughter is the best an atheist can muster. No matter
the circumstance the poor atheist shlemiel knows the laugh is
always on him.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 10:21:11 PM |
|
|
Desdinova wrote:
"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:40E45881.4D3ACC2E@worldnet.att.net...
<snip>
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an
autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself. There's only
one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you
believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
Atheism is not a religion. There is no deity in Atheism. We worship nothing.
We appreciate human achievement and the pursuit of knowlege.
You worship the deity of self.
That sort of dysfunctional thinking is rubber
room stuff.
Dysfunction thinking is where there is an invisible omnicient, omnipotent,
omibenevolent god for which there is absolutely no evidence.
The dysfunction you suffer is caused by your denial of reality. The
evidence is there despite your denial.
Deny to your heart's content but that's one jerked knee stuck in your
craw that medication isn't going to help remove.
You missed the craw by several yards.
Sure.
Incidentally, religions are man made, I follow none of them.
Gods are man made, we follow none of them.
You follow the gods you've made of yourselves.
--
Desdinova aa #2182
EAC Director of Separation of Church and Brain
There are none so blind as those who view life filtered
through the stained glass of church windows.
How about those who view life exclusively through their
own eyes?
"Christianity has such a contemptible opinion of human
nature that it does not believe a man can tell the truth
unless frightened by a belief in God. No lower opinion
of the human race has ever been expressed."
Wrong. A lower opinion of man was expressed long
before the advent of xianity:
Genesis 6:5 And the LORD saw that the wickedness of
man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of
the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Moore" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 11:57:00 PM |
|
|
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
jwk wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net>...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
Sorry, we all recognize that bit of typical, theistic, knee-jerk
hatred for the non-believer. Not original and not new. Your type
cannot accept that atheists are not defined by your hatred of us. It
just makes you mad, doesn't it.
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself.
Close but no cigar. Rather, man has created god. The
religious man has given objectivity to himself, but has not
recognized the object as his own nature. The divine being
is nothing else than the human being, or, rather, the human
nature purified, freed from limits of the individual man,
made objective.
There's only one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
I cannot make any sense out of your gibberish.
That sort of dysfunctional thinking is rubber
room stuff. Deny to your heart's content but that's one jerked knee stuck in your
craw that medication isn't going to help remove.
I'll bet you have some experience in the area of rubber
rooms and medication -- if only you could articulate.
--
M2
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 12:44:42 AM |
|
|
Michael Moore wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
jwk wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<40E388EC.BC0C5BFA@worldnet.att.net>...
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
Sorry, we all recognize that bit of typical, theistic, knee-jerk
hatred for the non-believer. Not original and not new. Your type
cannot accept that atheists are not defined by your hatred of us. It
just makes you mad, doesn't it.
Since the beginning. man has been trying to make himself a god, an autonomous
authority that answers to nothing and no one but himself.
Close but no cigar. Rather, man has created god. The
religious man has given objectivity to himself, but has not
recognized the object as his own nature. The divine being
is nothing else than the human being, or, rather, the human
nature purified, freed from limits of the individual man,
made objective.
Speaking of gibberish.
There's only one thing
new in your Atheist religion, its worshiping an idea that something you believe
has never existed, doesn't exist.
I cannot make any sense out of your gibberish.
Try making sense of your own gibberish first.
That sort of dysfunctional thinking is rubber
room stuff. Deny to your heart's content but that's one jerked knee stuck in your
craw that medication isn't going to help remove.
I'll bet you have some experience in the area of rubber
rooms and medication -- if only you could articulate.
If only you could think.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Michael Moore" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 11:31:18 PM |
|
|
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
Bwahahahaha. You got it in a bad way, friend. All the best
to you in any case.
--
M2
.
|
|
|
| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 01:41:44 PM |
|
|
Michael Moore wrote:
Roy Jose Lorr wrote:
Denis Loubet wrote:
The only assumption and generalization one is allowed to make about atheists
is that they don't believe in any gods. And I have no problem with that
generalization.
But they do believe in gods: themselves. They all belong to a religion:
Atheism,
a religion based on obsession with worshiping the non existence of a being
they believe doesn't exist. There are no more discombobulated religious
fundamentalists in the world.
Bwahahahaha. You got it in a bad way, friend. All the best
to you in any case.
And a good day to you, pal, if you can manage it.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "walksalone" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 12:24:36 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:31:38 GMT, Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:boCdnSk8RJwz13_dRVn-hA@io.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
snip
Hmm. The various "holy" books are published.
Anybody can read them. They can be referenced.
If someone says something is in the book you can
ask for a reference.
One word, library.
One source:
http://sacred-texts.com
They even offer a cd of the site [semi annual updates IIRC] on cd if you
have to have your own.
Got one & don't use my name as a reference, they will charge you double &
keep the money.
They include the JPS bible.
if bleaters really want information overload
http://ccel.org which used to be at Wheaton univ.
So now I have to assume that other
Christians agree since they're all following the same book,
I don't see that reading the same book necessarily leads to
general agreement.
20000 cults later, I can't come to that conclusion either.
and now I have a
founded generalization.
Oddly, they rarely agree. Which is very confusing, and naturally they
claim
it's our fault for generalizing. Our fault for innocently assuming that a
group of people who all call themselves by the same name and all claim to
be
following the same teachings, would actually agree on the teachings.
Sigh.
Everybody is different. When speaking you are speaking
to an individual or individuals. I like to ask questions first.
If unsure of an assumption, I like to ask questions.
I take it you get a lot of blank stares.
walksalone who has a firm observation, the more a xian claims to know about
its pantheon, the less it is likely to know anything about its pantheon.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "NO.23: Stirfried Clayton In Black Bean Sauce" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 01:54:12 AM |
|
|
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
I regard fundamental, orthodox or extreme Judaism the same way I regard the
same thing in all other religions. I consider Jewish religious tomes to be
just as silly as other religious books of mythology. I consider the
government of Israel as one of the most dangerous and evil theocracies in
history...just as I do the Palestinians, the taliban and all other religious
extremist groups who think murder and violation in the name of <insert god
or religion here> is acceptable....and I think all Jewish people should
treat them with the same contempt. I do not however attack or condemn
people simply for being Jewish. I do not think there is a world wide Jewish
conspiracy to control the world. I do not think Jews are mean with money or
cannibals or what ever other anti-semitic garbage comes out of the neo-nazi
mind set. If they aren't extremists then Jewish people are actually closer
to atheists than almost any other group. Normal, responsible, productive
members of society. I will not tolerate anti-Semitism...but at the same
time I will not hesitate to criticize someone simply because they are
Jewish. The way some people think "Oh no...you can't say anything against
Jewish people...you're a nazi if you do" that is allowing some extremist
(especially Israel) to get away with, is as despicable an idea as will ever
be found and I'm sure most reasonable Jewish people will agree.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Fester" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 04:55:00 AM |
|
|
"NO.23: Stirfried Clayton In Black Bean Sauce"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> wrote in message
news:40e2630f$0$18192$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
I regard fundamental, orthodox or extreme Judaism the same way I regard
the
same thing in all other religions. I consider Jewish religious tomes to
be
just as silly as other religious books of mythology.
Good start.
I consider the
government of Israel as one of the most dangerous and evil theocracies in
history...just as I do the Palestinians, the taliban and all other
religious
extremist groups who think murder and violation in the name of <insert god
or religion here> is acceptable....and I think all Jewish people should
treat them with the same contempt.
Ooops, we knew it couldn't last. Ignorance of the nature of Israel and
*real* anti-semitism just had to come out.
I do not however attack or condemn
people simply for being Jewish. I do not think there is a world wide
Jewish
conspiracy to control the world. I do not think Jews are mean with money
or
cannibals or what ever other anti-semitic garbage comes out of the
neo-nazi
mind set. If they aren't extremists then Jewish people are actually
closer
to atheists than almost any other group. Normal, responsible, productive
members of society.
How white of you.
I will not tolerate anti-Semitism...but at the same
time I will not hesitate to criticize someone simply because they are
Jewish. The way some people think "Oh no...you can't say anything against
Jewish people...you're a nazi if you do" that is allowing some extremist
(especially Israel) to get away with, is as despicable an idea as will
ever
be found and I'm sure most reasonable Jewish people will agree.
But you won't inform yourself about the state of Israel, either why it was
created or how it has had to defend itself. You won't inform yourself about
how Israel is the most open and tolerant society in a part of the world
where people want to destroy them just because of who they are. Instead
you'll just propogate negative stereotypes and equate self-defense with
murder.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 11:36:29 AM |
|
|
"Fester" <not@home.com> wrote in message
news:U5wEc.76137$wH4.4737489@twister.southeast.rr.com...
"NO.23: Stirfried Clayton In Black Bean Sauce"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> wrote in message
news:40e2630f$0$18192$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn> wrote in message
news:rdrEc.9298$SO5.7100@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is atheism anti-semitic?
I regard fundamental, orthodox or extreme Judaism the same way I regard
the
same thing in all other religions. I consider Jewish religious tomes to
be
just as silly as other religious books of mythology.
Good start.
I consider the
government of Israel as one of the most dangerous and evil theocracies
in
history...just as I do the Palestinians, the taliban and all other
religious
extremist groups who think murder and violation in the name of <insert
god
or religion here> is acceptable....and I think all Jewish people should
treat them with the same contempt.
Ooops, we knew it couldn't last. Ignorance of the nature of Israel and
*real* anti-semitism just had to come out.
Hmm. That was one of my questions.
What is anti-semitism?
Is criticizing Israel anti-semitic?
(I, personally, wouldn't say that Israel is "one of the most
dangerous and evil theocracies in history" but I will
say that it is deserving of criticism.)
I do not however attack or condemn
people simply for being Jewish. I do not think there is a world wide
Jewish
conspiracy to control the world. I do not think Jews are mean with
money
or
cannibals or what ever other anti-semitic garbage comes out of the
neo-nazi
mind set. If they aren't extremists then Jewish people are actually
closer
to atheists than almost any other group. Normal, responsible,
productive
members of society.
How white of you.
I will not tolerate anti-Semitism...but at the same
time I will not hesitate to criticize someone simply because they are
Jewish. The way some people think "Oh no...you can't say anything
against
Jewish people...you're a nazi if you do" that is allowing some extremist
(especially Israel) to get away with, is as despicable an idea as will
ever
be found and I'm sure most reasonable Jewish people will agree.
But you won't inform yourself about the state of Israel, either why it was
created or how it has had to defend itself. You won't inform yourself
about
how Israel is the most open and tolerant society in a part of the world
where people want to destroy them just because of who they are. Instead
you'll just propogate negative stereotypes and equate self-defense with
murder.
What negative stereotype is he propogating?
--
RB
aa#2187
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
