| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
| Date: |
29 Jun 2004 11:21:43 PM |
| Object: |
Is atheism anti-semitic? |
Is atheism anti-semitic?
As a member of a minority persecuted on religious
grounds, I am sensitive to other's beliefs.
I am all for freedom of thought.
I don't care what you believe about deities
as long as you believe in equal rights and
the equality of human kind.
The problem is that most religions (Buddhism
perhaps being an acception) contain claims of
unique moral or divine status of their adherents.
That is bigotry.
I enjoy skewering those who would claim
such status, regardless of their religion.
If one challenges the posed unique moral or divine
status of a group one can expect reprobration.
If one levels the challenge at Judaism, a charge
of anti-semitism seems assured.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
Is anti-semitism racism?
Is atheistic disbelief in the tenets of
Judaism anti-semitic?
--
RB
aa#2187
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 01:58:40 AM |
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Paul A Abeles wrote:
Antisemitism means hostile to Jews per se.
You mean like yourself?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 01:42:13 AM |
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"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
What is anti-semitism?
The term "anti-Semi-tism" was coined in the 1890's by a Jew-hating
Ger-man
politician and crackpot racial theorist, Wilhelm Marr, who calculated
that
the euphemism would be more congenial to delicate bourgeois
sensibilities than
its antecedent, Judenhass, or Jew-hatred, which so baldly proclaimed an
unreasoning, murderous hostility. Events soon proved, of course, that
while
"anti-Semites" might have lacked the virtue of honest self description
that Jew
haters could boast of, their purpose was the same.
By devising a word intended to condition people to think of Jews as
racially
distinct, Marr contributed to the process of converting Xendom's age-old
antipathy toward those who had rejected the Nazarene into the 20th
century
passion to purge Europe of a supposedly alien "race." Marr's "modern,"
"scientific" term was simply perfumed cover for the desire to extirpate
Jews.
A nonsensical word with such a pedigree and purpose should be consigned
to
the dung heap from which it sprang. There are no anti-Semites, only
Jew-haters.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 11:10:15 AM |
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Great Lord "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn>, braving
the raging storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Wed, 30
Jun 2004 04:21:43 GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
No. Anti-semitism manifests as an unreasoning hatred or fear of Jews.
I just don't believe it, and if prodded, will explain my reasons for
disbelief. As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
Is anti-semitism racism?
Since there are Jews of all races, no.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBlM?=" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 12:25:54 PM |
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Douglas Berry a écrit :
Great Lord "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn>, braving
the raging storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Wed, 30
Jun 2004 04:21:43 GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
No. Anti-semitism manifests as an unreasoning hatred or fear of Jews.
I just don't believe it, and if prodded, will explain my reasons for
disbelief. As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
Is anti-semitism racism?
Since there are Jews of all races, no.
Since the concept of 'race' is wrong, right in the beginning, and means
more or less than a racist believe in a difference base on a supposed
race, anti-semitism is a racism.
Why? A semit is an individual supposed descendants of the same ancesters
than other semits, so a 'race' (I hate this word). Being more accurate,
it's someone having a semit language for mother tongue.
But it's widely accepted to use 'anti-semitic' for someone who hates the
Jews.
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example. A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
There are no race, but there are racists, and anti-semitic are racists,
because they hate the jews not only for their religious practice but for
their origine.
MichaëlM
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 05:16:59 PM |
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"MichaëlM" <monzo@free.fr> wrote in message
news:40e2f7a2$0$29379$626a14ce@news.free.fr...
Douglas Berry a écrit :
Great Lord "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn>, braving
the raging storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Wed, 30
Jun 2004 04:21:43 GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
No. Anti-semitism manifests as an unreasoning hatred or fear of Jews.
I just don't believe it, and if prodded, will explain my reasons for
disbelief. As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
Is anti-semitism racism?
Since there are Jews of all races, no.
Since the concept of 'race' is wrong, right in the beginning, and means
more or less than a racist believe in a difference base on a supposed
race, anti-semitism is a racism.
So anti-semitism is prejudice against the
falsely perceived Jewish race?
Why? A semit is an individual supposed descendants of the same ancesters
than other semits, so a 'race' (I hate this word). Being more accurate,
it's someone having a semit language for mother tongue.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=semite
Sem·ite
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient
southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians,
Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
But it's widely accepted to use 'anti-semitic' for someone who hates the
Jews.
Right, more or less.
There is little question that 'anti-semitism' is applicable
to those who are prejudiced against Jews according to
a perceived ethnic or racial stereotype.
But 'anti-semitism' is often leveled for much less specific
criticism of things related to Jewish people.
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example. A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
There are no race,
Africans are not a race? Asians are not a race?
Is there another term for a related people?
but there are racists, and anti-semitic are racists,
because they hate the jews not only for their religious practice but for
their origine.
Is discounting their religion hate or prejudice?
When you use the term 'origin' are you meaning a
real origin or a falsely perceived origin?
--
RB
aa#2187
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 05:38:18 AM |
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"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well, if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right in, it
is.
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of Judaism.
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Susan
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 05:52:10 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right in,
it
is.
Please explain.
--
ArWeUnclear - You bet!
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 06:28:04 AM |
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"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u1SEc.81796$sh6.77630@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right
in,
it
is.
Please explain.
Ask him to explain what he means & then we'll both be satisfied.
Susan
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 06:35:18 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8zSEc.23275$DT5.10516@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u1SEc.81796$sh6.77630@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right
in, it is.
Please explain.
Ask him to explain what he means & then we'll both be satisfied.
I came in late, but it seems he is saying the Judaism belief in being
"chosen by" something or other that is invisible is a stupid thing to
believe.
Don't you agree?
--
ArWeTransparent
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 09:01:01 AM |
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"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:WFSEc.82293$mH6.37777@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8zSEc.23275$DT5.10516@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u1SEc.81796$sh6.77630@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built
right
in, it is.
Please explain.
Ask him to explain what he means & then we'll both be satisfied.
I came in late, but it seems he is saying the Judaism belief in being
"chosen by" something or other that is invisible is a stupid thing to
believe.
That's not what I get from what he is saying.
But if you are right, that's fine.
Don't you agree?
I don't agree with what you said, but, then again, I'm Jewish.
Susan
--
ArWeTransparent
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 07:22:40 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:xOUEc.22626$x9.8030@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:WFSEc.82293$mH6.37777@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8zSEc.23275$DT5.10516@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:u1SEc.81796$sh6.77630@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built
right in, it is.
Please explain.
Ask him to explain what he means & then we'll both be satisfied.
I came in late, but it seems he is saying the Judaism belief in being
"chosen by" something or other that is invisible is a stupid thing to
believe.
That's not what I get from what he is saying.
But if you are right, that's fine.
Don't you agree?
I don't agree with what you said, but, then again, I'm Jewish.
You DON'T agree that being chosen by Invisible Flying Turtles is a silly
thing to believe?
And your "reason" why it is not silly is that you are Jewish?
I think YOU are the anti-Semite. ;-)
The rest of us just laugh, and of course, avoid the falling "invisible sky
pellets"
--
ArWeShellShocked
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 03:14:22 AM |
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"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:kV1Fc.7137$If3.6438@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
I don't agree with what you said, but, then again, I'm Jewish.
You DON'T agree that being chosen by Invisible Flying Turtles is a silly
thing to believe?
And your "reason" why it is not silly is that you are Jewish?
No, but I see that you have some comprehension problems.
I think YOU are the anti-Semite. ;-)
You don't think at all, I see.
The rest of us just laugh, and of course, avoid the falling "invisible sky
pellets"
I see that for someone who has a need to see himself as superior that you
are extremely immature.
If you were secure in your beliefs & who youare, you wouldn;t have to run
around ridiculing things that you don't understand & that don't affect you.
Susan
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:19:44 AM |
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ArWeGod wrote:
You DON'T agree that being chosen by Invisible Flying Turtles is a silly
thing to believe?
And your "reason" why it is not silly is that you are Jewish?
I think YOU are the anti-Semite. ;-)
The rest of us just laugh, and of course, avoid the falling "invisible sky
pellets"
Remarkable!! You 'avoid the falling "invisible sky pellets"' by ducking
under the waves of your own excrement... eh?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:23:16 AM |
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ArWeGod wrote:
You DON'T agree that being chosen by Invisible Flying Turtles is a silly
thing to believe?
And your "reason" why it is not silly is that you are Jewish?
I think YOU are the anti-Semite. ;-)
The rest of us just laugh, and of course, avoid the falling "invisible sky
pellets"
Remarkable!! You 'avoid the falling "invisible sky pellets"' by ducking
under the waves of your own excrement... eh?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 12:21:12 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well, if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right in,
it
is.
What are the false connotations?
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of
Judaism.
So one can be atheist and still by 'nature' be Jewish.
One can not believe in God or Moses or any of the
Tanakh (i.e Old Testament) and still be Jewish.
Belief in the Tanakh has 'nothing to do with the culture'
and is not a necessary part of the nature of Judaism.
Interesting. So what remains?
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Equivocation.
--
RB
aa#2187
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 03:15:55 AM |
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"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:ch6Fc.10856$ju5.7806@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well,
if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right
in,
it
is.
What are the false connotations?
You tell me what you mean by chosen, & there they'll be.
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of
Judaism.
So one can be atheist and still by 'nature' be Jewish.
That's not what I said, of course.
One can not believe in God or Moses or any of the
Tanakh (i.e Old Testament) and still be Jewish.
Yup.
Belief in the Tanakh has 'nothing to do with the culture'
and is not a necessary part of the nature of Judaism.
Interesting. So what remains?
Being Jewish.
Susan
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Equivocation.
--
RB
aa#2187
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 12:57:12 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:%Q8Fc.26656$DT5.14359@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:ch6Fc.10856$ju5.7806@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well,
if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right
in,
it
is.
What are the false connotations?
You tell me what you mean by chosen, & there they'll be.
Your response is fishing and burden shifting.
You made your assertion of 'false connotation' based on
what was written and your interpretation.
If you can't say what the false connotation
in the original statement is then your assertion is vain.
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one.
Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of
Judaism.
So one can be atheist and still by 'nature' be Jewish.
That's not what I said, of course.
What is the difference?
One can not believe in God or Moses or any of the
Tanakh (i.e Old Testament) and still be Jewish.
Yup.
Belief in the Tanakh has 'nothing to do with the culture'
and is not a necessary part of the nature of Judaism.
Interesting. So what remains?
Being Jewish.
Circular. Equivocation.
Susan
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Equivocation.
--
RB
aa#2187
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| User: "Michael Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 09:52:23 AM |
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Susan Cohen wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:ch6Fc.10856$ju5.7806@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well,
if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right
in,
it
is.
What are the false connotations?
You tell me what you mean by chosen, & there they'll be.
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of
Judaism.
So one can be atheist and still by 'nature' be Jewish.
That's not what I said, of course.
One can not believe in God or Moses or any of the
Tanakh (i.e Old Testament) and still be Jewish.
Yup.
Belief in the Tanakh has 'nothing to do with the culture'
and is not a necessary part of the nature of Judaism.
Interesting. So what remains?
Being Jewish.
Susan
What exeactly is being Jewish?
--
M2
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Equivocation.
--
RB
aa#2187
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:22:24 AM |
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Michael Moore wrote:
Susan Cohen wrote:
What exeactly is being Jewish?
What do you think it is?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:22:37 AM |
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"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
So one can be atheist and still by 'nature' be Jewish.
One can not believe in God or Moses or any of the
Tanakh (i.e Old Testament) and still be Jewish.
Belief in the Tanakh has 'nothing to do with the culture'
and is not a necessary part of the nature of Judaism.
Interesting. So what remains?
Bagels and lox.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:13:35 AM |
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"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:uQREc.23176$DT5.13883@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well, if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right in,
it
is.
What are the false connotations?
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of
Judaism.
So one can be atheist and still by 'nature' be Jewish.
One can not believe in God or Moses or any of the
Tanakh (i.e Old Testament) and still be Jewish.
Belief in the Tanakh has 'nothing to do with the culture'
and is not a necessary part of the nature of Judaism.
Interesting.
So what remains?
The fact that you know little or nothing of Jewish culture.
Up until quite recently Jewish 'culture' was based on
Talmud and Tanach.
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Equivocation.
Hardly. Tribes sometime and nations most times are made up of people
of various cultural and ethnic differences. "People" used in the context
of "the People Israel" describes a people joined in every respect by a
common religion, culture, and gene pool.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Michael Moore" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 10:33:12 AM |
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Susan Cohen wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <li@so-net.net.tw> wrote in message
news:vZGEc.26400$Fy.10069@twister.socal.rr.com...
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Where is the line?
You keep going on about this as if it were difficult to figure out.
It's when the criticism is
a) untrue
b) not levelled at anyone BUT Jews, even if others deserve it as well, if
not more
that it's obvious that the "criticism" is just anti-semitism.
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
The way you are phrasing it, w/all the false connotations built right in, it
is.
Judaism is not only a religion but a culture, and a strong one. Some
people claim to be jewish atheists for example.
Yup. It's entirely possible.
But that has nothing to do with the culture, but the very nature of Judaism.
A yiddish speaker from a
Jewish family will still stay a Jew in a sense.
Not necessarily.
(see above)
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
We are a people.
Says you. In any case, you should be sure not to blur the
distinction between nation/culture, race, and religion.
Opposing religious views is distinct from opposing the others.
--
M2
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
01 Jul 2004 03:40:11 PM |
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"Michael Moore" <m.moore@NOSPAMutoronto.ca> wrote in message
news:T8WEc.84502$Ax1.976419@news20.bellglobal.com...
Susan Cohen wrote:
We are a people.
Says you.
Says Judaism.
In any case, you should be sure not to blur the
distinction between nation/culture, race, and religion.
Opposing religious views is distinct from opposing the others.
I'm not the one saying that "atheism is anti-semitic".
Susan
--
M2
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:13:48 AM |
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Michael Moore wrote:
Susan Cohen wrote:
We are a people.
Says you. In any case, you should be sure not to blur the
distinction between nation/culture, race, and religion.
Opposing religious views is distinct from opposing the others.
How so?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
04 Jul 2004 12:22:58 AM |
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Michael Moore wrote:
Susan Cohen wrote:
We are a people.
Says you. In any case, you should be sure not to blur the
distinction between nation/culture, race, and religion.
Opposing religious views is distinct from opposing the others.
How so?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Micha=EBlM?=" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
30 Jun 2004 06:52:31 PM |
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Ron Baker, Pluralitas! a écrit :
"MichaëlM" <monzo@free.fr> wrote in message
news:40e2f7a2$0$29379$626a14ce@news.free.fr...
Douglas Berry a écrit :
Great Lord "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <jing@topway.net.cn>, braving
the raging storm, scaled the mighty crag called alt.atheism on Wed, 30
Jun 2004 04:21:43 GMT and screamed this to the uncaring Gods.
What is anti-semitism?
Is challenging the tenets of Judaism
anti-semitic?
No. Anti-semitism manifests as an unreasoning hatred or fear of Jews.
I just don't believe it, and if prodded, will explain my reasons for
disbelief. As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
Is anti-semitism racism?
Since there are Jews of all races, no.
Since the concept of 'race' is wrong, right in the beginning, and means
more or less than a racist believe in a difference base on a supposed
race, anti-semitism is a racism.
So anti-semitism is prejudice against the
falsely perceived Jewish race?
Yes. Jewish are not a race but a community based on a common religion,
history and culture. They are considered as a race by racist and
anti-semitic people.
Why? A semit is an individual supposed descendants of the same ancesters
than other semits, so a 'race' (I hate this word). Being more accurate,
it's someone having a semit language for mother tongue.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=semite
Sem·ite
1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient
southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians,
Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
Thank you. You completed what I said with the number 1.
But it's widely accepted to use 'anti-semitic' for someone who hates the
Jews.
Right, more or less.
There is little question that 'anti-semitism' is applicable
to those who are prejudiced against Jews according to
a perceived ethnic or racial stereotype.
But 'anti-semitism' is often leveled for much less specific
criticism of things related to Jewish people.
Not in Europe. The word have been forged by an person who was
anti-semitic himself. It was really hard anti-semitism in the XIXth
century in Europe. Sorry if I'm not aware of the meaning in the US.
Is criticism of anything related to Jewish people 'anti-semitism'?
Not in Europe, except maybe the Jewish fundies.
Where is the line?
Atheist are, of course, more than skeptical of the "God's
chosen people" claim. Is that anti-semitism?
Idem.
I've seen the terms 'tribe' and 'nation' used often.
'Tribe' or 'tribal nation' seems fitting to me.
Good. I will use this one if there's no problem.
There are no race,
Africans are not a race? Asians are not a race?
Is there another term for a related people?
Ethnicity.
:)
but there are racists, and anti-semitic are racists,
because they hate the jews not only for their religious practice but for
their origine.
Is discounting their religion hate or prejudice?
Critic is not hate. Insult is hate and prejudice.
When you use the term 'origin' are you meaning a
real origin or a falsely perceived origin?
Both.
MichaëlM
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 02:05:05 AM |
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MichaëlM wrote:
There are no race, but there are racists
Makes no sense. If there is no race, how can there be racists?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Roy Jose Lorr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 02:01:44 AM |
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Douglas Berry wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
And if they believe you should disappear from existence?
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 03:19:31 AM |
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Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Douglas Berry wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
And if they believe you should disappear from existence?
Houston, we have a problem...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism anti-semitic? |
02 Jul 2004 03:49:09 AM |
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On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:19:31 GMT in alt.atheism, Elroy Willis (Elroy
Willis <elo@airmail.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Roy Jose Lorr <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Douglas Berry wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, people are free to believe what
they like.
And if they believe you should disappear from existence?
Houston, we have a problem...
Well, they can believe whatever they want. that said, I wouldn't be
too keen on them acting on that belief though.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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