<snip>

Could it be that you are afraid to admit that people could

live

and

thrive and be happy without superstition?

I'd like to see people live, thrive, and be happy as much as you

do.

You believe people can achieve a state of fulfillment believing

the

superstitions you do.

What superstitions do I think i possess?

There is no God is one of your superstitions.

But I don't make such a claim.

Are you an atheist or not?

I am answering this separately, because it deserves its own thread, IMO.

An atheist is one who doe snot believe in gawd(s). I find it easiest to
state my views in 2 parts. First, that it is irrational to believe in
gawd(s). Second, that I do not believe in it(them). I am an
A(alotofthings), as are you.

Back in the year 100 BC, everyone was an Achristian, but nobody knew they
were. And if you told them that they were, it wouldn't make sense to them.
That is because the word Achristian only makes sense in the presence of a
claim that there is/was a Christ character that was as the Christian
religion describes him/it.

So it is with atheism. It is a term that only
exists because there are people who make the claims that theists make. It
is not in itself a claim of anything more than that the atheist does not
believe.

Next, why is irrational to believe in gawd(s). There are more than one
reason:

1. Only claims that can be tested have meaning. If a claim is made that
cannot be observed, i.e. magic, then the claim is without meaining. It can
neither be proven true or false. There are an infinite number of such
theories. Is it rational to accept any of them? What's more, it doesn't
matter if it's true or false because it if can't be observed it can have no
impact on our world.

2. An atheist is one who does not subsrcibe to what theists say. In
addition to being an atheist, I am also an Abigfootist. If nobody have ever
proposed a theory of bigfoot, the word Abigfootist would have no meaning.
It is not a claim that there are no Bigfoots, it is a claim that I don't
believe that there are no Bigfoots. You, as you've describe yourself are an
Achristianist. In the year 100 BC erveryone on the planet were
Achristianists, but htey didn't know it, and if you told them that they were
they wouldn't understand you. Did those people claim that there was no
Christ as a Christian would describe him?

<snip>

And then what?

goodby

Well we wouldn't want htat.

How would you behave? Would you conduct yourself by

lying

and

stealing

and

killing? If not why not?

<snip>

That was badly phrased. We do indeed alter nature in numerous ways. We

are

unable to change the rules which all physicl entities are constrained

by.

What you cll toys (tools, logic, technology, etc) are of far more
significance to the our ability survive, grow, and be happy than your

holy

books.

I suppose primitive man lacked the ability to 'survive, grow, and be happy

'.

lol

Certainly you can't say that infant mortality wasn't far higher and life
expectancie far shorter than we enjoy today.

Furhtermore, you can't mean
that they had more leisure time then than we do today.

The first mud huts we built were "artificial"
constructs, but useful ones to us. So are logic and science an

"artificial"

constructs.

Toys.

Yes, I can tell that you've dimissed logic and rationailty long ago

as

playthings.

Too bad for you.

In what way?

Because you depend for your very life on those toys.

I suppose primitive man didn't exist since he had no such toys. lol

Your odds of being alive right now would have been greatly reduced had those
toys not been available to you.

Because the source of
all knowledge are the intellectual toys you choose to blithely dismiss.
Because your lack of appreciation for them leaves you in ignorance.

Its I who appreciate their true worth and you who worship them.
Another of your superstitions.

Supersition:

'1. An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not
logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. 2a. A
belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws
of nature or by faith in magic or chance. b. A fearful or abject state of
mind resulting from such ignorance or irrationality. c. Idolatry. "

Your beliefs most certainly agree with this definition. Mine do not.

That we constructed morality (whether a a morality based upon
rational thought or based upon the ancient literature of

long-dead

civilizations) to live by, we have created "artifical"

moralities.

Correct, we are capable of constructing artificial relativistic

morality.

However, its Absolute Morality we can't invent or destroy.

You have yet to say what "artificial morality" is.

Reread the posts.

I didn't see where defined it in this thread.

Then you didn't reread.

I have stated that all
morality is artificial in the sense that it is a man-made construct.

With the exception of Absolute Morality.

Prove it.

Below, in a prior post.

Secondly, answer the
question. I answered yours.

I answered honestly. I don't know what I'd do in the

hypothetical

world

you imagined.

No, you have consistently avoided the question. You have

refused to

answer.

Why?

I said I don't have an answer to the question... what's your

problem?

My problem with you, is that say you don't have an answer, but

neither

do

you have an argument against the answer I provided.

Reread the posts.

I have. You haven't answered me. Don't waste my time.

Try reading them again, this time with comprehension. As for your
time: its worth nothing to me.

Could it be that you are afraid to admit that people could live

and

thrive and be happy without superstition?

I'd like to see people live, thrive, and be happy as much as you

do.

You believe people can achieve a state of fulfillment believing

the

superstitions you do.

What superstitions do I think i possess?

There is no God is one of your superstitions.

But I don't make such a claim.

Are you an atheist or not?

Others believe they come closest by believing
their own superstitions which happen to run contrary to yours.
Implying their superstitions are less happy making than yours is
pretty arrogant and intolerant coming from a moral relativist such
as yourself... wouldn't you say?

I'm not the least bit intolerant of the superstitions of others.

I'm

erfectly happy to live among those who hold them, provided they do

not

impede my pursuit of happiness in my own way.

Then find yourself a deserted desert island to live in.

Why should I do that? I told you, I'm content right where I am.

Sure you are. You've told me more than you imagine.

Since that world's morals would necessarily be relativistic,
I believe circumstances rather than moral considerations would

govern

human behavior. That's the way its been since the beginning,

until

the

institution of the guide of Absolute Morality in the Five

Books of

Moses

(Genesis - Deuteronomy).

And what is wrong with rational behavior in the presence of

"circumstances"

as a guide to behavior?

When it comes to making moral choices the ability to reason is

used

for

all the

wrong reasons. Moral issues have a way of turning reason to the

support

of

emotional impulses coming from desire. Both sscientific knowledge

and

its

reverse practical observation go out the window when moral

expedience

takes

over.

Proof?

Do the google: key words "moral", "relativism".

No, you provide proof that scientific knowledge and "reverse practical
observation" go out the window ant that "moral expedience" take over.

The proof is in the fact that there is not one, I say one, man made moral
that can not been turned on its head. There is not one that hasn't been
reversed at one time or another to suit the force of desire. On the other
hand, Moses' God's Absolute Morals are not subject to manipulation,
they are immutable. How far off is this pretend galaxy you live in?

I say
that I have the self-discipline to retain my integrity, even when faced

with

tough choices.

Sure you do.

There's many a rationale for irrational behavior but that's part

of

the

price
we pay for being cognizant beings. That price was lifted with the

institution

of
the Absolute Morality found only in the Five Books of Moses
(Genesis - Deuteronomy).

More unproven assertions. Care to back that up?

We live in a dualistic amoral universe. Man does not have
the ability to construct immutably correct moral choices.
thus his morals cannot be Absolute. Yet, this amoral world
with its flawed men contains a set of Absolute Morals that
by all reason should not exist here.

Prove that that this world contains a set of "Absolute Morals."

I just did.

Your "proof" is merely a statement of your opinion. It proves nothing to
any rational mind.

Since nature is devoid
of morality and man cannot invent it correctly, Absolute
Morality must come to us from above and beyond this
world. Most people refer to that above and beyond as God.

Here is another example of where your dimissal of the tool called logic
leaves you short.

The first flaw of logic is in its first principle: Any affirmative

statement

can be balanced by an equally true contradictory statement.

The first law of logic is that conclusions must follow their premises.
Please tell me, are the statements, "1 + 1 = 2," and "1 + 1 != 2," both
equally true in your mind. the second is a contradiction of the first, so
therefore, according to you it must also be true.

Your error is called a non-sequitor. You see, the
conclusion that AM must come to us from anywhere does not follow the
premise.

You are confused. You worship logic but don't know how to use it. Not
to worry, its not an uncommon fallibility to have a superstition and not

be

aware of the ramifications.

LOL. You make no attempt to justify your irrationality. You give a
statement amounting to: "A is a B, therefore C is a D" and try to tell me
that I'm confused when I call it a non-sequitor.

An alternative, and IMHO correct conclusion is that a perfect
morality does not exist. As men we obliged to do the best we can, if we

are

to find happiness. Your final leap in illogic is just silly. I read a

book

by C.S. Lewis once, and he put forward the same nonsical argument. I
laughed.

The laughter you laughed was/is nervous laughter directed at your
nonsensical self.

That's right, don't attempt to refute my logic.

<snip>

In other words, the meaning of life is to make it subject to

your

desire.

Subject to the consideration that I don't impede others in their

efforts

to

live the life that they desire.

What do you do when another's desire conflicts with yours?

That depends on the nature of hte conflict. Typically I attempt to

reason

with that person to find a way where we may both realize our

desires.

What if you can't reach a compromise?

Then I would have to choose. It depends upon a number of factors as to

how

I'll act. In many cases, I may feel that the desire is not worth the
conflict. Without further detail in your hypothetical I couldn't

possibly

provide a meaningful answerr.

Your answer has more meaning than you know. For someone who claims
being able to keep his integrity intact through thick and thin: "I say

that I

have the self-discipline to retain my integrity, even when faced with

tough

choices.", you've just shown how willing you are to compromise that

integrity.

I stated precisely the opposite. How can you justify your statement?

<snip>

I accept only the word of Moses' God which appears exclusively in

the

Five Books of Moses (Genesis - Deuteronomy)... all the rest is

flawed

human commentary.

And as far as I'm concerned, I'm not the least bit bothered by your

doing

so, although I question how you can possibly think it anything other

than

fantasy.

Do you really follow your own bible? I noticed that you posted

messages

on

Friday night and on Saturday. Your holy books say that you

shouldn't

do so,

but must keep the Sabbath holy (it's even one of those 10

Commandments)

In the 14 years I've been posting to forums and news groups I have

never

intentionally posted on the Sabbath.

You posted on Firday night, 7/2/04 at past 9:30 PM. Was that

unintentional?

Did someone force you to do it?

I don't run the clocks at my server.

Please accept my apolgies for questioning you on this. If you say you keep
the Sabbath, fair enough. My original question was just to deterimine if
you did, since going by some posting times it appears you didn't.

. Do
you keep Kosher, or do you eat "unclean" shelfish, bacon and cheese

burgers?

I do not eat foods forbidden in the Five Books of Moses.

When I was Bar Mitvah'ed, I read a section of those books. It

concerned

how

Yahweh required people to deal with feminine hygiene. Silly really,

it

said

that when Aunt Flo comes around, the lady who is being visited must
essentially be placed in quarantine. I guess that Yahweh didn't see

the

invention of the tampon coming. Do you quarantine the women in your

family

every month? Or do you only obey those parts of the book that

appeal to

you

or that are convenient for you to follow?

It is not possible to follow all the Laws while living in exile. I

follow

the

Laws that
exilic conditions permit.

So I was right. Those aspects of your holy book that are not convenient

to

you are ignored. You pick and choose.

It has nothing to do with picking and choosing. There are Laws that
require certain conditions. When those conditions have been
suspended due to unavoidable circumstance such as exile from t