| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Robinson" |
| Date: |
13 May 2005 07:32:57 AM |
| Object: |
Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise dissention.
I'm sure it will anyway but I am looking at examining the issue
seriously. It will not be settled in this forum but I do want to hear
the responses either way.
I have been having a discussion on another newsgroup which doesn't
really deal with atheism per se as much as it deals with other issues
and as such I feel I probably should start the discussion here because
I'd seriously like to get some feedback on what I see as an issue with
a lot of people who seem to find examining their religion of atheism to
be as distateful to them as those who examine the flaws of those who
believe in God.
For some reason, a number of people seem to be of the opinion that
atheism is not a religion. To me it is clear and obvious that it
qualifies. I think it fits all of the relevant criteria which define
what represents a religion.
If this is the case, then as such the belief in atheism should be
treated the same way, and is entitled to be granted the same level of
respect (which conceivably can be zero if their belief system contains
zero validity) as we would grant to anyone who chose some other
religion, even if some people disagree with it, whether it be a belief
in God (or Allah (peace be on his name), Jehovah or whatever name you
give him (if they believe God is a man) or her (ditto, in reverse), in
the Cargo Cult gods, in the Norse Gods, in the Mythological Gods
(Wotan, Thor, Frigg etc.)) or whatever they believe in, if they believe
in a supernatural entity with power beyond oneself and quite likely
beyond others.
To be simple, I refer to the idea of a deity with some control and
powers over this world, either as a single entity, a single entity
split in multiple parts, a committee, or groups, as the "Master of the
Universe" or more formally as "Master and Commander of the Universe."
I think every religion one claims to believe in is subject to
validation and analysis. The thing I find most hilarious is the number
of people who, in carrying a belief in God, when you point out the
errors they have made, can't see them, or refuse to acknowledge them
(because they'd have to admit maybe what they believe in is wrong or
unsustainable).
So I'd like to hear comments from people as to their position on the
issue, I'm making the claim that atheism is just as much a religious
faith as any other belief. I am not claiming it to be wrong, or
inaccurate, or necessarily right, just that it simply is another
religion.
Full Disclosure: before I became an agnostic I was a Christian. I
realized when I discovered the contradictions in that religion I could
no longer remain one. Now, if you take the Bible as having any
validity, by their rules I can never stop being one (it's like joining
a credit union, once you're a member you're always a member). So
personally I have, to the best of my knowledge and "belief" no biases
either in favor of, or opposed to, a belief in God or a belief in No
God. It also means I'm free to point out errors I see in either belief
because I no longer have preconceived notions favorable or hostile to
either side.
Now, there are some that may argue that being an agnostic is a weak
position as opposed to being an atheist. I disagree. I believe it is
much harder to be an agnostic than an atheist (which is harder than the
really easy case of believing in the Master and Commander of the
Universe, by whatever someone believes that entity to be), and I think
the issue deserves a separate article I'll explain in greater detail
there so as not to go off topic here.
I can, if people want, explain my reasoning in greater detail in
subsequent responses but I'd rather try to shorten this initial message
than lengthen it.
So I will repose the question placed in the header of this message.
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"_...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything, they teach us
that nobody ever learns the lessons that history teaches us."
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 02:28:23 PM |
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On 13 May 2005 11:54:25 -0700, "skyeyes" <skyeyes@dakotacom.net>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
But what I don't understand is why so many of them do that. When I
lived in the UK (until I was 42) I only remember one or two people
lecturing me on what it meant to be atheist.
It's arrogantly rude. Yet so many American theists feel compelled to
do it.
Many American theists teach to the children under their control by
means of drilling the poor dears, just the way us old folks learned the
times-tables in arithmetic. Instead of being taught to reason, or at
the very least to think creatively about their doctrines, definitions
and made-up questions (and, of course, the answers to those questions)
are hammered into the kids on a weekly (if not daily) basis. This
results in an adult who cannot speak on religious subjects without
first re-defining them to fit the definitions with which s/he was
indoctrinated.
But don't they realise just how arrogantly rude they are?
It is tantamount to saying we're not telling the truth about
ourselves. The proper thing to do is accept that we are telling the
truth about what our position actually is, and accept that - even if
they don't understand it.
I accept that what believers actually believe what they tell me. I
don't lecture them oon what they really believe.
Remember, here in 'Merica, lots and lots of folks actually take their
kidlets to sunday school and church on a regular basis, unlike the U.K.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics
We had a cat called Tanta
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:47:46 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
But don't they realise just how arrogantly rude they are?
No, they don't - they're not programmed in terms of rude/polite.
They're programmed in terms of correct/incorrect, and in order for them
to be on the "correct" side of the equation, they have to re-define the
other person's stance so that their pat answers fit it.
These people are pathetically, hysterically, and tirelessly needy to be
*right*. It's all a lot of them have. No money? No political clout?
No social class? That's okay; I'm *right* because I know and believe
what's in God's word.
It is tantamount to saying we're not telling the truth about
ourselves. The proper thing to do is accept that we are telling the
truth about what our position actually is, and accept that - even if
they don't understand it.
Yes, Chris, you and I know that; but we're not hysterically,
pathetically, and tirelessly needy to be right. We "get it" that
others have different definitions and goals for themselves; these folks
don't. It's an unfortunate feature of their religious programming.
I accept that what believers actually believe what they tell me. I
don't lecture them oon what they really believe.
Me neither. See that thing above, about having to be *right*....
We had a cat called Tanta
I have Tribble, Trouble, P'polo P'poki, Carmelita, Snowy, and Shadow.
And people wonder why I never get to take a vacation. ;-P
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and - you guessed why -
Cat-Herding
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
17 May 2005 12:15:21 PM |
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On Fri, 13 May 2005 13:22:33 -0400, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2005 17:09:28 GMT, J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
DianaC wrote:
If you are an atheist, and subscribe to a belief/philosophical/ethical
system that requires the absence of deity, it may walk and talk and behave
like a religion, and indeed, there is at least one very large group of
atheists who are quite upfront about their religious views; Buddhism is very
much a religion.
To be a religion, a diety need not be part of the belief system, there
are other supernatural agents that will suffice.
Otherwise, pretty good post, Diana.
The trouble is that Diana is still attacking straw men, even after all
these years.
No, she isn't. She's very aware of what an atheist is or isn't and
stated that very well in her prior post.
[]
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 11:19:21 AM |
|
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"_...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything, they teach us
that nobody ever learns the lessons that history teaches us."
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
--
rb #2187
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 11:28:46 AM |
|
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On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:19:21 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"_...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything, they teach us
that nobody ever learns the lessons that history teaches us."
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 12:06:50 PM |
|
|
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:ocl9811h1i38bu08lrjcbrdqnig2i8tot9@4ax.com...
On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:19:21 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"_...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything, they teach us
that nobody ever learns the lessons that history teaches us."
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
:) The battle against ignorance is never ending.
Pretty soon we'll have a library from which we can
simply cut and paste the answers to those tired old
questions.
--
rb #2187
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 01:58:57 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
Because the religious sweatshops keep turning out theists indoctrinated
with the same old definitions and the same old zeal to convert
non-believers.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 12:09:20 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:36:27 PM |
|
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
No problem if you are a 501c3 charity.
It is my understanding that that is how churches get
their exemption and that the exemption is not restricted
to churches.
--
rb #2187
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 05:00:17 PM |
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|
In our last episode <fd8he.13929$ya2.4543@tornado.socal.rr.com>, Ron
Baker, Pluralitas! pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If
you wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I
have my own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd
like to hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind.
Perhaps you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone
who participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will
discover something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth
of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion, Christians (and everybody
else too) have multiple religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam,
aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
No problem if you are a 501c3 charity. It is my understanding that that is
how churches get their exemption and that the exemption is not restricted
to churches.
No it's not a 501(c)3, that's different. And much harder to get. The
exemption for churches is stunningly easy to obtain. The government's on
shaky ground giving the exemption at *all because the 1st keeps them from
deciding what is and is not a religion.
I remember when the IRS went after the ULC which is lax as hell and
ordains anybody and everybody. They're a real borderline bunch.
The IRS lost...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 07:41:58 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:EtqdnSSLzuvvvhjfRVn-hA@megapath.net...
In our last episode <fd8he.13929$ya2.4543@tornado.socal.rr.com>, Ron
Baker, Pluralitas! pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If
you wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I
have my own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd
like to hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind.
Perhaps you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone
who participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will
discover something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth
of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion, Christians (and everybody
else too) have multiple religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam,
aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
No problem if you are a 501c3 charity. It is my understanding that that
is
how churches get their exemption and that the exemption is not restricted
to churches.
No it's not a 501(c)3, that's different. And much harder to get. The
exemption for churches is stunningly easy to obtain. The government's on
Interesting. Can you point to any documentation on that?
Would that be in the tax code?
--
rb #2187
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 08:58:23 PM |
|
|
In our last episode <qPbhe.13951$ya2.5667@tornado.socal.rr.com>, Ron
Baker, Pluralitas! pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:EtqdnSSLzuvvvhjfRVn-hA@megapath.net...
In our last episode <fd8he.13929$ya2.4543@tornado.socal.rr.com>, Ron
Baker, Pluralitas! pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting
a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If
you wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I
have my own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me
I'd like to hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your
mind. Perhaps you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think
everyone who participates will learn something, and maybe some of
us will discover something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public in and for the
Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion, Christians (and
everybody else too) have multiple religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam,
aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
No problem if you are a 501c3 charity. It is my understanding that that
is
how churches get their exemption and that the exemption is not
restricted to churches.
No it's not a 501(c)3, that's different. And much harder to get. The
exemption for churches is stunningly easy to obtain. The government's on
Interesting. Can you point to any documentation on that? Would that be in
the tax code?
Ah, wait, here we go. I'm wrong, it *is under 501(c)3 *but a church
doesn't have to apply to the IRS to be recognized. That's where I was
thinking it was outrageously easy to "obtain." You just up and do it.
I think the only catch is if you want people to be able to write off
donations, you should apply for recognition by the IRS (but then you have
to pay the fee too).
The IRS publication is over here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 09:49:12 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:3ridnSXT5reixhjfRVn-rA@megapath.net...
In our last episode <qPbhe.13951$ya2.5667@tornado.socal.rr.com>, Ron
Baker, Pluralitas! pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in message
news:EtqdnSSLzuvvvhjfRVn-hA@megapath.net...
In our last episode <fd8he.13929$ya2.4543@tornado.socal.rr.com>, Ron
Baker, Pluralitas! pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting
a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If
you wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I
have my own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me
I'd like to hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your
mind. Perhaps you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think
everyone who participates will learn something, and maybe some of
us will discover something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public in and for the
Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion, Christians (and
everybody else too) have multiple religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam,
aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
No problem if you are a 501c3 charity. It is my understanding that that
is
how churches get their exemption and that the exemption is not
restricted to churches.
No it's not a 501(c)3, that's different. And much harder to get. The
exemption for churches is stunningly easy to obtain. The government's on
Interesting. Can you point to any documentation on that? Would that be
in
the tax code?
Ah, wait, here we go. I'm wrong, it *is under 501(c)3 *but a church
doesn't have to apply to the IRS to be recognized. That's where I was
thinking it was outrageously easy to "obtain." You just up and do it.
I think the only catch is if you want people to be able to write off
donations, you should apply for recognition by the IRS (but then you have
to pay the fee too).
The IRS publication is over here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
Cool. Good info.
--
rb #2187
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 04:00:47 PM |
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"Elroy Willis" <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com...
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
<snip to>
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
They do. There are a great many tax exempt non profit ATHEIST organizations.
Join one of them.
Simply being theist doesn't make you tax exempt.
<snip>
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| User: "No 33 Secretary" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 04:22:50 PM |
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Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote in
news:t4n981d6lgsu5vgmvt8qq356jbgm5phs4j@4ax.com:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism
Ron Baker, Pluralitas! <stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting
a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If
you wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I
have my own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me
I'd like to hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your
mind. Perhaps you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think
everyone who participates will learn something, and maybe some of
us will discover something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
And why doesn't our atheist "religion" allow tax-exempt status?
Because religions don't get tax exemption, churches do. And atheism most
certainly *can* qualify for legal tax-exempt status, if it serves the
purpose of a religion in your life (and you meet all the other
requirements, which include space devoted exclusively to church use and
regular meetings with a minimum number of attendees.
"I hereby declare my house to be an atheist religious sanctuary and
therefore I shouldn't be required to pay any property taxes!"
What would the IRS think about that?
They'd ask for documentation. They have a checklist. Nothing on the
checklist is dependant on the particular nature of the religion belief.
Atheism can easily qualify, so long as it serves the same purpose in your
life as a religious belief does to a theist. (If it didn't, it would have
been successfully challenged under the 1st amendment long ago.) I believe
there's specific SCOTUS case law somewhere on atheism in particular, in
fact. You could get a tax exemption on your Monday Night Football club, if
you played strictly by the rules.
But the tax exemption isn't for religion, it's for a working church, which
performs certain real-life functions.
--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available
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| User: "Loadnlock" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 11:50:56 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 13 May 2005 16:19:21 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
<snip to save bandwidth>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"_...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything, they teach us
that nobody ever learns the lessons that history teaches us."
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
Maybe because all those charlatans selling their religious snake oil will
never give up trying to bring the non-believers down to the same low level as
the sheep they are fleecing?
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence.
Science is simply common sense at its best -- that is, rigidly accurate in
observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic." -- Thomas Huxley, Evolution
and Ethics
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 12:11:05 PM |
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Loadnlock <loadnlock@nospam.net> wrote in alt.atheism
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence.
Science is simply common sense at its best -- that is, rigidly accurate in
observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic." -- Thomas Huxley, Evolution
and Ethics
Skeptic, is that you?
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:28:17 PM |
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On 13 May 2005, Christopher A. Lee dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
Because we keep forgetting to crosspost it to alt.troll.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
Lovingly plonked by Roger Pearse
______________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't
think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and
parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face
white and praying to a rock."
[Howard Stern]
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:34:42 PM |
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On Fri, 13 May 2005 15:28:17 -0500, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> wrote:
On 13 May 2005, Christopher A. Lee dropped trou, farted, whirled, then
shouted:
If atheism is a religion then:
baldness is a hair color,
not collecting stamps is a hobby,
health is a disease,
not believing in Santa Clause is a religion,
Christians (and everybody else too) have multiple
religions (i.e. abuddhism, aislam, aqueztacoatlism, etc.)
Why should we have to keep explaining this?
Because we keep forgetting to crosspost it to alt.troll.
Not just on the net but in real life.
The Lady In My Life is a devout Catholic. She understands what an
atheist is because she grew up in a place where Hindus, Muslims and
Catholics live alongside each other and understands how people outside
a religion see it.
But many of her circle have told me, and when I explain that outside
their religion it's "just the deity of somebody else's religion in
exactly the same way eg Zeus is to you" that gets dismissed as
ridiculous.
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 11:54:53 AM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise dissention.
I'm sure it will anyway but I am looking at examining the issue
seriously. It will not be settled in this forum but I do want to hear
the responses either way.
Gee let me consult my atheist bible and check it out at my atheist church
group and get back to you.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 01:57:33 PM |
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kathryn wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise dissention.
I'm sure it will anyway but I am looking at examining the issue
seriously. It will not be settled in this forum but I do want to hear
the responses either way.
Gee let me consult my atheist bible and check it out at my atheist church
group and get back to you.
be sure to pray to your atheist non-god for guidance....
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 02:49:04 PM |
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"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:xM6he.383$Ri4.312@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
kathryn wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise dissention.
I'm sure it will anyway but I am looking at examining the issue
seriously. It will not be settled in this forum but I do want to hear
the responses either way.
Gee let me consult my atheist bible and check it out at my atheist church
group and get back to you.
be sure to pray to your atheist non-god for guidance....
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
Or not pray to my atheist non god?
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:31:50 PM |
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On 13 May 2005, kathryn dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
Or not pray to my atheist non god?
....observe a moment of bedlam...
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Plonked by Jason Gastrich for all eternity...
Lovingly plonked by Roger Pearse
______________
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think
there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading
around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and
praying to a rock."
[Howard Stern]
.
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
14 May 2005 04:04:48 AM |
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"Vic Sagerquist" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns965589D99EA7Cvicman@216.196.97.136...
On 13 May 2005, kathryn dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
Or not pray to my atheist non god?
...observe a moment of bedlam...
--
Vic Sagerquist
It starts to get a litle confusing
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 04:43:39 PM |
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In our last episode <Xns965589D99EA7Cvicman@216.196.97.136>, Vic
Sagerquist pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On 13 May 2005, kathryn dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
Or not pray to my atheist non god?
...observe a moment of bedlam...
Only a moment?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:42:46 PM |
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J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:xM6he.383$Ri4.312@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
kathryn wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise
dissention. I'm sure it will anyway but I am looking at examining the
issue seriously. It will not be settled in this forum but I do want
to hear the responses either way.
Gee let me consult my atheist bible and check it out at my atheist
church group and get back to you.
be sure to pray to your atheist non-god for guidance....
Our Nothing, Who art Nowhere, hallowed be thy Not...
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
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| User: "G-Ride" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 07:18:50 PM |
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Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no?
No.
--
Aloha, G-Ride
"Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga."
- Dalai Llama
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 03:48:42 PM |
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Atheism is a believe of some sort: I believe there is no God.
May may argue it is not even that: It is a lack of believe.
But A "strong" Atheist has more than a lack of believe in God.
He knows for sure, he will never meet a God.
As all statements : "I believe there is no God" is only mostly true.
As God is purely spiritual, and all spiritual things exist in the human
brain only,
I do believe God exists in the human brain. But I think this makes me
an strong atheist anyhow.
A religion is much more than a believe
It is more often than not organized, and always has rites.
Atheism has no rites.
Therefore it is no religion.
Is suppose others have said so too.
Peter van Velzen
May 2005
Amstelveen
The Netherlands.
I believe the spiritual to be solely within the realm of the human
mind.
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 08:52:25 AM |
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Basically all you are saying is that you only respect people who believe in
things that have no proof. Moreover, people who have a virus of the mind (
http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Articles/1993-summervirusesofmind.shtml )
.. Getting one isn't hard; you had one. Getting rid of it is much much
harder.
Maybe you should have said pity where you said respect?
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 04:59:13 PM |
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In article <1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote:
Yeah. Sure. Why not, if it floats your boat.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
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