| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Robinson" |
| Date: |
13 May 2005 07:32:57 AM |
| Object: |
Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise dissention.
I'm sure it will anyway but I am looking at examining the issue
seriously. It will not be settled in this forum but I do want to hear
the responses either way.
I have been having a discussion on another newsgroup which doesn't
really deal with atheism per se as much as it deals with other issues
and as such I feel I probably should start the discussion here because
I'd seriously like to get some feedback on what I see as an issue with
a lot of people who seem to find examining their religion of atheism to
be as distateful to them as those who examine the flaws of those who
believe in God.
For some reason, a number of people seem to be of the opinion that
atheism is not a religion. To me it is clear and obvious that it
qualifies. I think it fits all of the relevant criteria which define
what represents a religion.
If this is the case, then as such the belief in atheism should be
treated the same way, and is entitled to be granted the same level of
respect (which conceivably can be zero if their belief system contains
zero validity) as we would grant to anyone who chose some other
religion, even if some people disagree with it, whether it be a belief
in God (or Allah (peace be on his name), Jehovah or whatever name you
give him (if they believe God is a man) or her (ditto, in reverse), in
the Cargo Cult gods, in the Norse Gods, in the Mythological Gods
(Wotan, Thor, Frigg etc.)) or whatever they believe in, if they believe
in a supernatural entity with power beyond oneself and quite likely
beyond others.
To be simple, I refer to the idea of a deity with some control and
powers over this world, either as a single entity, a single entity
split in multiple parts, a committee, or groups, as the "Master of the
Universe" or more formally as "Master and Commander of the Universe."
I think every religion one claims to believe in is subject to
validation and analysis. The thing I find most hilarious is the number
of people who, in carrying a belief in God, when you point out the
errors they have made, can't see them, or refuse to acknowledge them
(because they'd have to admit maybe what they believe in is wrong or
unsustainable).
So I'd like to hear comments from people as to their position on the
issue, I'm making the claim that atheism is just as much a religious
faith as any other belief. I am not claiming it to be wrong, or
inaccurate, or necessarily right, just that it simply is another
religion.
Full Disclosure: before I became an agnostic I was a Christian. I
realized when I discovered the contradictions in that religion I could
no longer remain one. Now, if you take the Bible as having any
validity, by their rules I can never stop being one (it's like joining
a credit union, once you're a member you're always a member). So
personally I have, to the best of my knowledge and "belief" no biases
either in favor of, or opposed to, a belief in God or a belief in No
God. It also means I'm free to point out errors I see in either belief
because I no longer have preconceived notions favorable or hostile to
either side.
Now, there are some that may argue that being an agnostic is a weak
position as opposed to being an atheist. I disagree. I believe it is
much harder to be an agnostic than an atheist (which is harder than the
really easy case of believing in the Master and Commander of the
Universe, by whatever someone believes that entity to be), and I think
the issue deserves a separate article I'll explain in greater detail
there so as not to go off topic here.
I can, if people want, explain my reasoning in greater detail in
subsequent responses but I'd rather try to shorten this initial message
than lengthen it.
So I will repose the question placed in the header of this message.
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no? If you
wish to offer claims as to why, please feel free to do so. I have my
own opinions about why, and if someone disagrees with me I'd like to
hear some suggestions why. Perhaps I can change your mind. Perhaps
you can get me to change mine. In any case, I think everyone who
participates will learn something, and maybe some of us will discover
something they didn't think about before.
Thank you for your attention
Paul Robinson
"A computer programmer and Notary Public
in and for the Commonwealth of Virginia, at large"
Paul Robinson "Above all else... We shall go on..."
"_...And continue!"
"If the lessons of history teach us anything, they teach us
that nobody ever learns the lessons that history teaches us."
.
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| User: "Clayton, The Email She-Male" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 07:21:42 PM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
For some reason, a number of people seem to be of the opinion that
atheism is not a religion.
You mean atheists? How dare atheists try to be the ones who define what
athiesm is!!!!!
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 08:08:33 AM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
First, before some dismiss me, I wish to point out I am attempting a
legitimate inquiry and am not trying to troll just to raise dissention.
The answer is "No".
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Science doesn't burn people at the stake for disagreeing - Vic Sagerquist
.
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| User: "Clayton, The Email She-Male" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 07:19:19 PM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Do we get federal funding if we say "yes"?
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| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
14 May 2005 05:26:36 AM |
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In article <4285435e$0$8123$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonymails.com says...
Do we get federal funding if we say "yes"?
You think Little Johnny will support that, Clay?
--
The Great Hairy One,
BAAWA all night long
SMASHing it to the masses
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
Roleplay. Just do it.
.
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| User: "Clayton, The Email She-Male" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 07:15:57 PM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
no
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 09:41:31 AM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1115987577.484902.153830@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
<snip to the question>
Is it reasonable to consider atheism as a religion? Yes or no?
<snip to end>
The problem here is that you (and a whole lot of other people as well...it's
a very handy way to twist things to win an argument, though fallacious) are
confusing concepts here. No, atheism is not a religion. By the very same
token, neither is THEISM. Both are very simple words and concepts that mean
one thing and one thing only; theism means belief in deity. atheism means
non-belief. If you are a theist and subscribe to a belief system that relies
on a deity, that belief system is a 'religion' by definition. Not all
theists are religious. Not all theists belong to religions.
If you are an atheist, and subscribe to a belief/philosophical/ethical
system that requires the absence of deity, it may walk and talk and behave
like a religion, and indeed, there is at least one very large group of
atheists who are quite upfront about their religious views; Buddhism is very
much a religion. There are other atheists who do not in any way behave in
what might be considered a 'religious' manner; their atheism is such that
the concept of deity doesn't even enter their minds from day to day. Others
are obsessed with it; with their non-belief: atheist apologists. Now THESE
guys seem rather 'religious' to me, but they are not the whole of atheism,
any more than a Baptist fundamentalist is the whole of theism.
So. Seems to me that we have to compare apples to oranges, not apples to the
animal kingdom.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 08:40:51 PM |
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*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
*snip*
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 08:52:08 PM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many theists
who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
14 May 2005 07:05:02 AM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02:
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
That only means that they belong to a religion with a single member.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"You know you're over the target when you start receiving flak."
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
14 May 2005 05:26:02 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:1116072304.051b7994484d053400d7f19c00327be1@teranews...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02:
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
That only means that they belong to a religion with a single member.
While I will agree that it is possible to have a religion with a single
member; indeed, I'd say that all religions begin with a single member, it
does not follow that all theists MUST belong to a religion of at least one
member. As well, one of the things about theist religions is that though
they may begin with one member, they will either grow to more than one---or
else the one will join another. Religions require more than a simple belief
in a deity. They require doctrines...and one gets doctrine from the study of
others and debate with others. They require ceremonies and rites......which
can be incredibly simple, but must be consistent.
But a theist who says 'yes, there is a god, but I don't believe in a church,
or any special method of worshiping deity" does not belong to a religion.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 11:05:04 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many theists
who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online Encarta
dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well, maybe number 4, but
we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being religious require belonging to an
organized church. If you're a theist you're religious. I thought you knew
something exotic, but you just haven't consulted a dictionary. Unless you're
like several other theists on this ng have who have your very own special
super secret dictionary that us godless atheists are not allowed to see.
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching of
religion, or following the practices of a religion.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe Christians
who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The vows taken when doing
this include dedication to poverty, chastity, and obedience.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
14 May 2005 01:18:25 AM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:QNehe.38150$0X6.9182@edtnps90...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many theists
who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online
Encarta dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well, maybe
number 4, but we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being religious require
belonging to an organized church. If you're a theist you're religious. I
thought you knew something exotic, but you just haven't consulted a
dictionary. Unless you're like several other theists on this ng have who
have your very own special super secret dictionary that us godless
atheists are not allowed to see.
Ok, let's go through these definitions one at a time and parse them, shall
we?
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching of
religion, or following the practices of a religion.
Please note that 'religion' is specifically mentioned here, not 'theism'. If
you insist that this means 'theism', not 'religion', you are begging the
question big time.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
Please note, carefully, the 'and". Believing in, AND showing devotion or
reverence for, a deity or deities. Not "or" Notice the action required.
Simply believing isn't enough; one must actively take part in a belief
system; self identify with one.
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe Christians
who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The vows taken when
doing this include dedication to poverty, chastity, and obedience.
Like I said, don't blame me, I didn't write the definition, OR cite it. You
will half to find a different one if you want one to support YOUR
contention. So far, they all support mine.
Even you will have to admit that numbers 3 and 4 do not apply to all
theists. ;-)
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 10:37:06 AM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:RKghe.3914$x85.2010@trnddc01...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:QNehe.38150$0X6.9182@edtnps90...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online
Encarta dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well, maybe
number 4, but we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being religious require
belonging to an organized church. If you're a theist you're religious. I
thought you knew something exotic, but you just haven't consulted a
dictionary. Unless you're like several other theists on this ng have who
have your very own special super secret dictionary that us godless
atheists are not allowed to see.
Ok, let's go through these definitions one at a time and parse them, shall
we?
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching
of religion, or following the practices of a religion.
Please note that 'religion' is specifically mentioned here, not 'theism'.
If you insist that this means 'theism', not 'religion', you are begging
the question big time.
Go ahead and beg.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
Please note, carefully, the 'and". Believing in, AND showing devotion or
reverence for, a deity or deities. Not "or" Notice the action required.
Simply believing isn't enough; one must actively take part in a belief
system; self identify with one.
Nice try, but you're getting just a little pedantic with the conjunctions.
You can show devotion even if you're all alone. If you're praying alone at
night are you not showing devotion? It does not say "public display of
devotion."
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe
Christians who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The vows
taken when doing this include dedication to poverty, chastity, and
obedience.
Like I said, don't blame me, I didn't write the definition, OR cite it.
You will half to find a different one if you want one to support YOUR
contention. So far, they all support mine.
Even you will have to admit that numbers 3 and 4 do not apply to all
theists. ;-)
Duh.
religion (noun )
1. religion beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning
the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine
involvement in the universe and human life
2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or personal
system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and
attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is
completely devoted to or obsessed by
5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially in
the Roman Catholic Church
theism (noun )
1. belief in God: belief that one God created and rules humans and the
world, not necessarily accompanied by belief in divine revelation such as
through the Bible
2. belief in god or gods: belief in the existence of a god or gods
So your original statement was "Not all theists are religious."
The first defintion of "religious" is "relating to a religion: relating to
belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the practices of
a religion." I'll take the second defintion of religion because it is more
specific here, it is "a particular institutionalized or personal system of
beliefs and practices relating to the divine." Now the online Encarta
dictionary didn't have "theist," but the definition of "theism" should do to
show that all theists are religious. It is you that will "half" (sic) to
find a different one to support YOUR contention.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 12:18:48 PM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:C0Khe.55654$0X6.52622@edtnps90...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:RKghe.3914$x85.2010@trnddc01...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:QNehe.38150$0X6.9182@edtnps90...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online
Encarta dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well, maybe
number 4, but we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being religious
require belonging to an organized church. If you're a theist you're
religious. I thought you knew something exotic, but you just haven't
consulted a dictionary. Unless you're like several other theists on this
ng have who have your very own special super secret dictionary that us
godless atheists are not allowed to see.
Ok, let's go through these definitions one at a time and parse them,
shall we?
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching
of religion, or following the practices of a religion.
Please note that 'religion' is specifically mentioned here, not 'theism'.
If you insist that this means 'theism', not 'religion', you are begging
the question big time.
Go ahead and beg.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
Please note, carefully, the 'and". Believing in, AND showing devotion or
reverence for, a deity or deities. Not "or" Notice the action required.
Simply believing isn't enough; one must actively take part in a belief
system; self identify with one.
Nice try, but you're getting just a little pedantic with the conjunctions.
You can show devotion even if you're all alone. If you're praying alone at
night are you not showing devotion? It does not say "public display of
devotion."
Showing devotion to whom? "showing devotion' would entail an audience.
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe
Christians who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The vows
taken when doing this include dedication to poverty, chastity, and
obedience.
Like I said, don't blame me, I didn't write the definition, OR cite it.
You will half to find a different one if you want one to support YOUR
contention. So far, they all support mine.
Even you will have to admit that numbers 3 and 4 do not apply to all
theists. ;-)
Duh.
religion (noun )
1. religion beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning
the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine
involvement in the universe and human life
2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or personal
system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and
attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is
completely devoted to or obsessed by
5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially
in the Roman Catholic Church
theism (noun )
1. belief in God: belief that one God created and rules humans and the
world, not necessarily accompanied by belief in divine revelation such as
through the Bible
2. belief in god or gods: belief in the existence of a god or gods
So your original statement was "Not all theists are religious."
The first defintion of "religious" is "relating to a religion: relating to
belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the practices
of a religion." I'll take the second defintion of religion because it is
more specific here, it is "a particular institutionalized or personal
system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine." Now the online
Encarta dictionary didn't have "theist," but the definition of "theism"
should do to show that all theists are religious. It is you that will
"half" (sic) to find a different one to support YOUR contention.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 01:57:44 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:YvLhe.2581$rI1.2553@trnddc02...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:C0Khe.55654$0X6.52622@edtnps90...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:RKghe.3914$x85.2010@trnddc01...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:QNehe.38150$0X6.9182@edtnps90...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:cRche.81$rI1.51@trnddc02...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:DGche.38137$0X6.33733@edtnps90...
*snip*
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online
Encarta dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well, maybe
number 4, but we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being religious
require belonging to an organized church. If you're a theist you're
religious. I thought you knew something exotic, but you just haven't
consulted a dictionary. Unless you're like several other theists on
this ng have who have your very own special super secret dictionary
that us godless atheists are not allowed to see.
Ok, let's go through these definitions one at a time and parse them,
shall we?
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching
of religion, or following the practices of a religion.
Please note that 'religion' is specifically mentioned here, not
'theism'. If you insist that this means 'theism', not 'religion', you
are begging the question big time.
Go ahead and beg.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
Please note, carefully, the 'and". Believing in, AND showing devotion or
reverence for, a deity or deities. Not "or" Notice the action required.
Simply believing isn't enough; one must actively take part in a belief
system; self identify with one.
Nice try, but you're getting just a little pedantic with the
conjunctions. You can show devotion even if you're all alone. If you're
praying alone at night are you not showing devotion? It does not say
"public display of devotion."
Showing devotion to whom? "showing devotion' would entail an audience.
Oh come on. That's weak, and you know it. To a religious theist (that's
redundant), you are always showing devotion to god. Give in.
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe
Christians who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The vows
taken when doing this include dedication to poverty, chastity, and
obedience.
Like I said, don't blame me, I didn't write the definition, OR cite it.
You will half to find a different one if you want one to support YOUR
contention. So far, they all support mine.
Even you will have to admit that numbers 3 and 4 do not apply to all
theists. ;-)
Duh.
religion (noun )
1. religion beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning
the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine
involvement in the universe and human life
2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or personal
system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values,
and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is
completely devoted to or obsessed by
5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially
in the Roman Catholic Church
theism (noun )
1. belief in God: belief that one God created and rules humans and the
world, not necessarily accompanied by belief in divine revelation such as
through the Bible
2. belief in god or gods: belief in the existence of a god or gods
So your original statement was "Not all theists are religious."
The first defintion of "religious" is "relating to a religion: relating
to belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the
practices of a religion." I'll take the second defintion of religion
because it is more specific here, it is "a particular institutionalized
or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine." Now
the online Encarta dictionary didn't have "theist," but the definition of
"theism" should do to show that all theists are religious. It is you that
will "half" (sic) to find a different one to support YOUR contention.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 04:56:46 PM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:IYMhe.66055$tg1.46753@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online
Encarta dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well, maybe
number 4, but we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being religious
require belonging to an organized church. If you're a theist you're
religious. I thought you knew something exotic, but you just haven't
consulted a dictionary. Unless you're like several other theists on
this ng have who have your very own special super secret dictionary
that us godless atheists are not allowed to see.
Ok, let's go through these definitions one at a time and parse them,
shall we?
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the
teaching of religion, or following the practices of a religion.
Please note that 'religion' is specifically mentioned here, not
'theism'. If you insist that this means 'theism', not 'religion', you
are begging the question big time.
Go ahead and beg.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
Please note, carefully, the 'and". Believing in, AND showing devotion
or reverence for, a deity or deities. Not "or" Notice the action
required. Simply believing isn't enough; one must actively take part in
a belief system; self identify with one.
Nice try, but you're getting just a little pedantic with the
conjunctions. You can show devotion even if you're all alone. If you're
praying alone at night are you not showing devotion? It does not say
"public display of devotion."
Showing devotion to whom? "showing devotion' would entail an audience.
Oh come on. That's weak, and you know it. To a religious theist (that's
redundant), you are always showing devotion to god. Give in.
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who spout the
'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite aware that
'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe
Christians who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The vows
taken when doing this include dedication to poverty, chastity, and
obedience.
Like I said, don't blame me, I didn't write the definition, OR cite it.
You will half to find a different one if you want one to support YOUR
contention. So far, they all support mine.
Even you will have to admit that numbers 3 and 4 do not apply to all
theists. ;-)
Duh.
religion (noun )
1. religion beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions
concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and
divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or
personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values,
and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is
completely devoted to or obsessed by
5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun,
especially in the Roman Catholic Church
theism (noun )
1. belief in God: belief that one God created and rules humans and the
world, not necessarily accompanied by belief in divine revelation such
as through the Bible
2. belief in god or gods: belief in the existence of a god or gods
So your original statement was "Not all theists are religious."
The first defintion of "religious" is "relating to a religion: relating
to belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the
practices of a religion." I'll take the second defintion of religion
because it is more specific here, it is "a particular institutionalized
or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine." Now
the online Encarta dictionary didn't have "theist," but the definition
of "theism" should do to show that all theists are religious. It is you
that will "half" (sic) to find a different one to support YOUR
contention.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 05:18:25 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:yAPhe.7986$Y12.1937@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:IYMhe.66055$tg1.46753@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Not all theists are religious.
Can you give me an example of when a theist is not religious?
When he doesn't belong to a religion. Duh. there are a great many
theists who believe in a deity but do NOT 'like religion'.
Don't duh me. I found these definitions of "religious" on the online
Encarta dictionary. Pick another one if you like. Nowhere (well,
maybe number 4, but we're talking about #'s 1 & 2) does being
religious require belonging to an organized church. If you're a
theist you're religious. I thought you knew something exotic, but you
just haven't consulted a dictionary. Unless you're like several other
theists on this ng have who have your very own special super secret
dictionary that us godless atheists are not allowed to see.
Ok, let's go through these definitions one at a time and parse them,
shall we?
religious
1. relating to a religion: relating to belief in religion, the
teaching of religion, or following the practices of a religion.
Please note that 'religion' is specifically mentioned here, not
'theism'. If you insist that this means 'theism', not 'religion', you
are begging the question big time.
Go ahead and beg.
2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or
reference for, a deity or deities
Please note, carefully, the 'and". Believing in, AND showing devotion
or reverence for, a deity or deities. Not "or" Notice the action
required. Simply believing isn't enough; one must actively take part
in a belief system; self identify with one.
Nice try, but you're getting just a little pedantic with the
conjunctions. You can show devotion even if you're all alone. If you're
praying alone at night are you not showing devotion? It does not say
"public display of devotion."
Showing devotion to whom? "showing devotion' would entail an audience.
Oh come on. That's weak, and you know it. To a religious theist (that's
redundant), you are always showing devotion to god. Give in.
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who spout
the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite aware that
'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of anything
is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are typical of the
theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to win an argument.
3. thorough: very thorough or conscientious
4. christianity belonging to a monastic order: used to describe
Christians who have committed themselves to a monastic order. The
vows taken when doing this include dedication to poverty, chastity,
and obedience.
Like I said, don't blame me, I didn't write the definition, OR cite
it. You will half to find a different one if you want one to support
YOUR contention. So far, they all support mine.
Even you will have to admit that numbers 3 and 4 do not apply to all
theists. ;-)
Duh.
religion (noun )
1. religion beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions
concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities,
and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or
personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values,
and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is
completely devoted to or obsessed by
5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun,
especially in the Roman Catholic Church
theism (noun )
1. belief in God: belief that one God created and rules humans and the
world, not necessarily accompanied by belief in divine revelation such
as through the Bible
2. belief in god or gods: belief in the existence of a god or gods
So your original statement was "Not all theists are religious."
The first defintion of "religious" is "relating to a religion: relating
to belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the
practices of a religion." I'll take the second defintion of religion
because it is more specific here, it is "a particular institutionalized
or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine."
Now the online Encarta dictionary didn't have "theist," but the
definition of "theism" should do to show that all theists are
religious. It is you that will "half" (sic) to find a different one to
support YOUR contention.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 08:02:23 PM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who spout
the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite aware
that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to win
an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what a
religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
15 May 2005 09:09:11 PM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:ziShe.8017$Y12.7592@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who spout
the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite aware
that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to
win an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what a
religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
I used a dictionary, you're pulling defintions out of your *****.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
16 May 2005 09:04:32 AM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:bhThe.118530$3V3.66158@edtnps89...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:ziShe.8017$Y12.7592@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who
spout the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite
aware that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to
win an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what a
religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
I used a dictionary, you're pulling defintions out of your *****.
Actually, I used the OED and Mirriam-Webster.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
16 May 2005 09:11:43 AM |
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"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:QL1ie.8698$Y12.8020@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:bhThe.118530$3V3.66158@edtnps89...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:ziShe.8017$Y12.7592@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who
spout the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite
aware that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to
win an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what
a religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
I used a dictionary, you're pulling defintions out of your *****.
Actually, I used the OED and Mirriam-Webster.
Then post the definitions straight from the book. I have the OED, but I'll
let you do it.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
17 May 2005 09:40:34 PM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:zS1ie.118897$3V3.116856@edtnps89...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:QL1ie.8698$Y12.8020@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:bhThe.118530$3V3.66158@edtnps89...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:ziShe.8017$Y12.7592@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who
spout the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite
aware that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to
win an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what
a religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
I used a dictionary, you're pulling defintions out of your *****.
Actually, I used the OED and Mirriam-Webster.
Then post the definitions straight from the book. I have the OED, but I'll
let you do it.
Don't want to? OK, I'll do it...
religious (adjective)
1 believing in and worshipping a superhuman controlling power or powers,
especially a God or gods: both men were deeply religioius, intelligent, and
moralistic.
- (of a belief or practice) forming part of someone's thought about or
worship of a divine being; he has strong religious convictions - of or
relating to the worship of a doctrine concerning a divine being or beings:
religious music *snip rest of definition*
theism ( mass noun)
1 belief in the existence of a god or gods; especially belief in one god as
creator of the universe, intervening in it, and sustaining a personal
relationship to his creatures - compare with deism
- DERIVATIVES theist (noun) and theistic (adjective)
Since theists believe in a god or gods, and being religious is believing in
a god or gods, ALL THEISTS ARE RELIGIOUS. At least, according to the OED.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
16 May 2005 09:10:36 AM |
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DianaC wrote:
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:bhThe.118530$3V3.66158@edtnps89...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:ziShe.8017$Y12.7592@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who
spout the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite
aware that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to
win an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what a
religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
I used a dictionary, you're pulling defintions out of your *****.
Actually, I used the OED and Mirriam-Webster.
Do you also use American Heritage? Cambridge? Encylopedia Brittanica?
Wikipedia/Wiktionary? Google? Yahoo!?
There are many sources of information. If you limit yourself to only
two, you're not seeing the full picture.
.
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
17 May 2005 04:41:00 PM |
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"DanielSan" <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:wR1ie.2772$rI1.589@trnddc02...
DianaC wrote:
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:bhThe.118530$3V3.66158@edtnps89...
"DianaC" <dianaiad@vernoyoudontizon.net> wrote in message
news:ziShe.8017$Y12.7592@trnddc09...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@telus.net> wrote in message
news:RUPhe.66503$tg1.9920@edtnps84...
<snip to>
Ah, but it is NOT 'redundant'....and just ask the many theists who
spout the 'I'm spiritual, not religious' line. Because they are quite
aware that 'religion' denotes a formal organization and doctrine.
The many theists are deluded to begin with, and their awareness of
anything is questionable, especially the definition of words. You are
typical of the theists on this ng who will go to any absurd lengths to
win an argument.
Ah. A theist may not define what atheism is, but you get to define what
a religion is.
And you honestly do not see the irony in this.
I used a dictionary, you're pulling defintions out of your *****.
Actually, I used the OED and Mirriam-Webster.
Do you also use American Heritage? Cambridge? Encylopedia Brittanica?
Wikipedia/Wiktionary? Google? Yahoo!?
There are many sources of information. If you limit yourself to only two,
you're not seeing the full picture.
I think that the premier English language dictionaries for England (the
Oxford English, over fifteen volumes, complete with etymologies and quotes)
and Mirriam-Webster (which, quite frankly, takes most of it's definitions
from the OED) is sufficient. One does not generally go to an encyclopedia
for word definitions, Wickepedia is not trustworthy (not monitored for
accuracy at all by anybody) and google/yahoo are simply search engines to
use in order to get to authoritative sources...which in English word
definitions would be the OED and Mirriam Webster.
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 12:09:28 PM |
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DianaC wrote:
If you are an atheist, and subscribe to a belief/philosophical/ethical
system that requires the absence of deity, it may walk and talk and behave
like a religion, and indeed, there is at least one very large group of
atheists who are quite upfront about their religious views; Buddhism is very
much a religion.
To be a religion, a diety need not be part of the belief system, there
are other supernatural agents that will suffice.
Otherwise, pretty good post, Diana.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 12:22:33 PM |
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On Fri, 13 May 2005 17:09:28 GMT, J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
DianaC wrote:
If you are an atheist, and subscribe to a belief/philosophical/ethical
system that requires the absence of deity, it may walk and talk and behave
like a religion, and indeed, there is at least one very large group of
atheists who are quite upfront about their religious views; Buddhism is very
much a religion.
To be a religion, a diety need not be part of the belief system, there
are other supernatural agents that will suffice.
Otherwise, pretty good post, Diana.
The trouble is that Diana is still attacking straw men, even after all
these years.
She refuses to grasp that all an atheist is, is someody who isn't
theist.
And instead of having the courtesy to accept this even though she
can't understand it, she nastily tries to "prove" we're lying about
ourselves.
Some Buddhists are atheists, even some Hindus (Nastika, Jain). But
even for them, their atheism is simply that they're not theist. Their
religions are Buddhism, Jainism, the Nastika school of Hinduism etc.
.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 12:25:08 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
The trouble is that Diana is still attacking straw men, even after all
these years.
She refuses to grasp that all an atheist is, is someody who isn't
theist.
And instead of having the courtesy to accept this even though she
can't understand it, she nastily tries to "prove" we're lying about
ourselves.
This is all part of the art of self-deception known as "faith". I
expect it of her...
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 01:26:38 PM |
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On Fri, 13 May 2005 17:25:08 GMT, J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
The trouble is that Diana is still attacking straw men, even after all
these years.
She refuses to grasp that all an atheist is, is someody who isn't
theist.
And instead of having the courtesy to accept this even though she
can't understand it, she nastily tries to "prove" we're lying about
ourselves.
This is all part of the art of self-deception known as "faith". I
expect it of her...
But what I don't understand is why so many of them do that. When I
lived in the UK (until I was 42) I only remember one or two people
lecturing me on what it meant to be atheist.
It's arrogantly rude. Yet so many American theists feel compelled to
do it.
.
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 05:19:51 PM |
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When I
lived in the UK (until I was 42) I only remember one or two people
lecturing me on what it meant to be atheist.
It's arrogantly rude. Yet so many American theists feel compelled to
do it.
It's about sustaining the virus of mind. The more insecure you are, the more
you're willing to do to keep it alive. An atheists, especially one that has
gone from theism to atheism (I'm not quite sure how it compares to one that
hasn't), is likely very secure about it's position because of the proces he
has gone through (including getting scientifically and historically
informed).
.
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism as a type of religion? Yes or no |
13 May 2005 01:54:25 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
But what I don't understand is why so many of them do that. When I
lived in the UK (until I was 42) I only remember one or two people
lecturing me on what it meant to be atheist.
It's arrogantly rude. Yet so many American theists feel compelled to
do it.
Many American theists teach to the children under their control by
means of drilling the poor dears, just the way us old folks learned the
times-tables in arithmetic. Instead of being taught to reason, or at
the very least to think creatively about their doctrines, definitions
and made-up questions (and, of course, the answers to those questions)
are hammered into the kids on a weekly (if not daily) basis. This
results in an adult who cannot speak on religious subjects without
first re-defining them to fit the definitions with which s/he was
indoctrinated.
Remember, here in 'Merica, lots and lots of folks actually take their
kidlets to sunday school and church on a regular basis, unlike the U.K.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics
.
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