| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Joe" |
| Date: |
21 Dec 2007 06:03:19 PM |
| Object: |
Is atheism becoming a religion? |
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
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| User: "Dylan Knight Rogers" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 11:34:01 PM |
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In the sense that atheism has been the subject of some very popular
writing, I think there are some similarities to religion. However,
few coagulate their minds around the concept, as religion does to many
people.
Perhaps I myself am living in a fantasy, where all are as open-minded
to any sort of evidence as I'd like them to be. Though subjects like
reincarnation may be ridiculous, empirical data (if any could be
aggregated) would be interesting to investigate.
--
Dylan Knight Rogers
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| User: "Charles & Mambo Duckman" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
25 Dec 2007 01:15:44 AM |
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Dylan Knight Rogers wrote:
Though subjects like
reincarnation may be ridiculous, empirical data (if any could be
aggregated) would be interesting to investigate.
It's been investigated numerous times and it's consistently been exposed as
fraud, fantasy, delusion, psychotic behavior and wishful thinking.
How much more investigation do you need?
--
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood
Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
25 Dec 2007 07:35:38 AM |
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:34:01 -0800 (PST), Dylan Knight Rogers
<thesiscrunch@gmail.com> wrote:
In the sense that atheism has been the subject of some very popular
writing, I think there are some similarities to religion.
Let's see, juvenile delinquency has been the subject of some very popular
writing.
The sexual adventures of Britney Spears have been the subject of some very
popular writing.
9/11 has been the subject of some very popular writing.
Alien abductions have been the subject of some very popular writing.
Your theory on the criteria for determining genuine religious practice has never
been the subject of any popular writing.
Coincidence? I don't think so.
#2278 If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 11:47:46 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:34:01 -0800 (PST), Dylan Knight Rogers
<thesiscrunch@gmail.com> wrote:
In the sense that atheism has been the subject of some very popular
writing, I think there are some similarities to religion. However,
few coagulate their minds around the concept, as religion does to many
people.
You have to be pretty stupid to think that.
Perhaps I myself am living in a fantasy, where all are as open-minded
to any sort of evidence as I'd like them to be. Though subjects like
reincarnation may be ridiculous, empirical data (if any could be
aggregated) would be interesting to investigate.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 02:39:55 PM |
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On Dec 21, 6:03=A0pm, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion. Its faith
based because they werent there to see the origins of the universe,
first life, DNA, the Universes 133 + Physics Constants instituted and
put into operation for our life sustenance, etc...yet claim they know
it was accomplished either by Nothing or Natural Causes without any
intelligent input at all. They take it on 'faith' that that is how it
all occured having not witnessed it , despite modern scientific
evidence leading to a personal Theistic Creator. Atheism is a
religion because the tenets of atheism/evolutionism cross over into
the daily lives of atheists just as following the Christian Faith does
for true Christians ; and, many atheists belong to formal atheist
associations that take up a financial collection regularly (dues,
etc..) to pay for thier materials, resources, and overhead... the
same as Christian Churches do. Lastly, like many Christian CHurches,
atheism offers regional and national Conferences to discuss among
other things, their agendas. Does it bother Atheists that they
makeup and are apart of a Religion, albiet , secular ???
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| User: "CortxVortx CortxVortx@restmass" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
26 Dec 2007 05:06:30 PM |
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"IlBeBauck@gmail.com" <IlBeBauck@gmail.com> wrote in news:acce5291-fefc-
4181-b301-970f7f6fe291@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
On Dec 21, 6:03pm, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion. Its faith
based because they werent there to see the origins of the universe,
first life, DNA, the Universes 133 + Physics Constants instituted and
put into operation for our life sustenance, etc...yet claim they know
it was accomplished either by Nothing or Natural Causes without any
intelligent input at all. They take it on 'faith' that that is how it
all occured having not witnessed it , despite modern scientific
evidence leading to a personal Theistic Creator. Atheism is a
religion because the tenets of atheism/evolutionism cross over into
the daily lives of atheists just as following the Christian Faith does
for true Christians ; and, many atheists belong to formal atheist
associations that take up a financial collection regularly (dues,
etc..) to pay for thier materials, resources, and overhead... the
same as Christian Churches do. Lastly, like many Christian CHurches,
atheism offers regional and national Conferences to discuss among
other things, their agendas. Does it bother Atheists that they
makeup and are apart of a Religion, albiet , secular ???
Another "Liar for Christ."
--
"Evolution can be mean -- there's no 'dumb-*****' vaccine." -- Jimmy
Buffett
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 09:01:47 PM |
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wrote:
On Dec 21, 6:03 pm, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular
STOP: Oxymoron detected. Dumping remainder of message (0093A3FOAD332x)
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act *
* of the whole American people which declared that *
* their legislature should make no law respecting *
* an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the *
* free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of *
* separation between church and state." *
* --Thomas Jefferson, 1802 *
****************************************************
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| User: "Khendon" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 10:46:25 PM |
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"DanielSan" <petersonj07@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Toednen-_4qS7-3anZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
IlBeBauck@gmail.com wrote:
On Dec 21, 6:03 pm, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular
STOP: Oxymoron detected. Dumping remainder of message (0093A3FOAD332x)
You mis-typed. The actual error message is
STOP: Moron Detected. Dumping remainder of message (0093A3FOAD332x)
Usually this error can be corrected by running PLONK.EXE on a regular basis.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 03:29:48 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:39:55 -0800, wrote:
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion.
You lie.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“Communism, like any other revealed religion,
is largely made up of prophecies.”
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
25 Dec 2007 07:29:55 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:29:48 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:39:55 -0800, wrote:
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion.
You lie.
You're stupid;
"The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of the
First Amendment, is distinct from a 'way of life,' even if that way of
life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns,"
noted the Seventh Circuit ruling. "A religion need not be based on a
belief in the existence of a supreme being, (or beings, for
polytheistic faiths) nor must be it be a mainstream faith." Relevant
cases include: WISCONSIN v YODER (1972); TORCASO v WATKINS (1961);
MALNAK v YOGI (1979) and LINDELL v MCCALLUM (2003).
"Without venturing too far into the real of the philosophical,"
continued the court, "we have suggested in the past that when a person
sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of 'ultimate concern' that
occupy a 'place parallel to that filled by God in traditional
religious persons,' those beliefs represent her religion."
The Circuit Court judges also noted: "The Supreme Court has
recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the
First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in MCCREARY
COUNTY, KY V ACLU OF KY (2005)." In addition, "the Court has adopted a
broad definition of 'religion' that includes non-theistic and
atheistic beliefs, as well as theistic ones." The TORCASO v WATKINS
ruling declared that a state cannot "pass laws or impose requirements
which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid
those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against
those religions founded on different beliefs." Thus, opined the high
court, "'Secular Humanism' (is) an example of a religion."
WHAT GOVERNMENT CALLS RELIGION
Despite the explicit prohibition on mixing government and religion,
states throughout the country still have statutes which provide all
manner of "perks," special exemptions and services for religious
organizations. One such tax exemption is currently be challenged by
American Atheists in Kentucky.
In 1995, the Ethical Society of Austin, TX -- a branch of the
American Ethical Union -- was organized, and the following year filed
for a tax-exempt status from sales, use, excise, hotel and franchise
taxes as a "religious" entity. The State Comptroller's office
initially rejected the application, but sent the request to its Tax
Policy Group composed of the highest ranking officials in the agency.
It concluded that under several citations from US Supreme Court
decisions, the ESA qualified for the exemption.
A news story then appeared in the Austin American-Statesman paper
in 1997 ("Godless Group Gets Religious Exemption"). Shortly
thereafter, the Comptroller's office issued a "letter of correction"
stating that the Ethical Society of Austin was not a "religious"
group, and that its special tax-exempt status was being withdrawn. A
trial followed, and the court ruled that using its understanding of a
"Supreme Being" test, the state had erred and violated the First
Amendment.
Once again, the State of Texas went to court, this time on appeal.
The Third District Texas Court of Appeals ruled for the Ethical
Culture group, citing many of the same federal cases that were
incorporated in last week's federal Seventh Circuit Court ruling.
Noting that even Blacks Law Dictionary stated religion "in its
broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of
superior beings exercising power over human beings," the court saw the
First Amendment protection of religion as being more robust, expansive
and inclusive.
"Because the scope of religious belief defies easy
characterization, we believe that a constitutionally sufficient
inquiry cannot be bound by this common understanding of religion.
Otherwise, the courts would find themselves as a matter of law
declaring entire belief systems that certainly qualify as religions --
such as Buddhism, Taoism, and some strains of Unitarianism -- to be
outside of the First Amendment's protection."
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| User: "Smiler" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
26 Dec 2007 05:43:55 PM |
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<leroyblue@pillinor.net> wrote in message
news:mjb3n3pc501hti2lpmsovima2va4inhpai@4ax.com...
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:29:48 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:39:55 -0800, wrote:
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion.
You lie.
You're stupid;
"The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of the
First Amendment, is distinct from a 'way of life,' even if that way of
life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns,"
noted the Seventh Circuit ruling. "A religion need not be based on a
belief in the existence of a supreme being, (or beings, for
polytheistic faiths) nor must be it be a mainstream faith." Relevant
cases include: WISCONSIN v YODER (1972); TORCASO v WATKINS (1961);
MALNAK v YOGI (1979) and LINDELL v MCCALLUM (2003).
"Without venturing too far into the real of the philosophical,"
continued the court, "we have suggested in the past that when a person
sincerely holds beliefs
Atheists do not hold ANY religious beliefs.
dealing with issues of 'ultimate concern' that
occupy a 'place parallel to that filled by God in traditional
religious persons,' those beliefs represent her religion."
Notice the capital G in God.
That refers to the Abrahamic god.
This ruling refers to the likes of Pagans, Hindus, Bhuddists, etc.
Nothing to do with atheists, who hold no such beliefs.
The Circuit Court judges also noted: "The Supreme Court has
recognized atheism as equivalent to a 'religion' for purposes of the
First Amendment on numerous occasions,
Notice the words "equvalent to" in there.
If it were to mean what you think it means, those words would not be there.
most recently in MCCREARY
COUNTY, KY V ACLU OF KY (2005)." In addition, "the Court has adopted a
broad definition of 'religion' that includes non-theistic and
atheistic beliefs, as well as theistic ones." The TORCASO v WATKINS
ruling declared that a state cannot "pass laws or impose requirements
which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can aid
those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against
those religions founded on different beliefs." Thus, opined the high
court, "'Secular Humanism' (is) an example of a religion."
Most atheists are not Secular Humanists.
WHAT GOVERNMENT CALLS RELIGION
Despite the explicit prohibition on mixing government and religion,
states throughout the country still have statutes which provide all
manner of "perks," special exemptions and services for religious
organizations. One such tax exemption is currently be challenged by
American Atheists in Kentucky.
In 1995, the Ethical Society of Austin, TX -- a branch of the
American Ethical Union -- was organized, and the following year filed
for a tax-exempt status from sales, use, excise, hotel and franchise
taxes as a "religious" entity. The State Comptroller's office
initially rejected the application, but sent the request to its Tax
Policy Group composed of the highest ranking officials in the agency.
It concluded that under several citations from US Supreme Court
decisions, the ESA qualified for the exemption.
A news story then appeared in the Austin American-Statesman paper
in 1997 ("Godless Group Gets Religious Exemption"). Shortly
thereafter, the Comptroller's office issued a "letter of correction"
stating that the Ethical Society of Austin was not a "religious"
group, and that its special tax-exempt status was being withdrawn. A
trial followed, and the court ruled that using its understanding of a
"Supreme Being" test, the state had erred and violated the First
Amendment.
Once again, the State of Texas went to court, this time on appeal.
The Third District Texas Court of Appeals ruled for the Ethical
Culture group, citing many of the same federal cases that were
incorporated in last week's federal Seventh Circuit Court ruling.
Noting that even Blacks Law Dictionary stated religion "in its
broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of
superior beings exercising power over human beings," the court saw the
First Amendment protection of religion as being more robust, expansive
and inclusive.
"Because the scope of religious belief defies easy
characterization, we believe that a constitutionally sufficient
inquiry cannot be bound by this common understanding of religion.
Otherwise, the courts would find themselves as a matter of law
declaring entire belief systems that certainly qualify as religions --
such as Buddhism, Taoism, and some strains of Unitarianism -- to be
outside of the First Amendment's protection."
Notice that atheism isn't included in that list.
Smiler,
The godless one
a.a.# 2279
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
27 Dec 2007 03:13:41 AM |
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wrote:
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:29:48 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:
On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:39:55 -0800,
wrote:
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion.
You lie.
You're stupid;
"The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of
the First Amendment, is distinct from a 'way of life,'......
Since Atheism is no a distinct "way of life," it is merely a lack
of belief in gods, it is not a religion.
--
Dave
You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents,
not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
- Abbie Hoffman
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| User: "Charles & Mambo Duckman" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
26 Dec 2007 01:52:08 AM |
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wrote:
REPLY: Yes, atheism is a faith-based secular religion.
You lie.
You're stupid;
"The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of the
First Amendment, is distinct from a 'way of life,' even if that way of
life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns,"
You're a fucking cretin, then:
In 1886, . . . in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific
Railroad Company, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that a private corporation
is a person and entitled to the legal rights and protections the
Constitutions affords to any person. Because the Constitution makes no
mention of corporations, it is a fairly clear case of the Court's taking it
upon itself to rewrite the Constitution.
Hmm, I wonder if Coca-Cola is a hot chick...
--
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood
Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
26 Dec 2007 07:44:23 AM |
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 01:29:55 +0000, leroyblue wrote:
WHAT GOVERNMENT CALLS RELIGION
Makes it so?
You consider the rulings of the court to be holy writ? What if they ruled
Jesus never existed?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"How come God gets credit whenever something good happens? Where was he
when her heart stopped?"
- Dr. House
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| User: "V" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 06:50:00 PM |
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On Dec 21, 7:03 pm, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
Sure it is a religion...secular humanists.
But is a failed religion.
The secular humanists talks a good talk...but in the end they have no
incentive to do right other than the fear of pain from breaking man
made laws.
Atheists have little or no connection with their inner peace and they
do not operate under a fear of God, so they are left to their own
devices.
As such, atheist have no authenticity in their peace practice, but are
'fear based' practitioners just as many theists are.
Lets look at a few of these atheists to get at the facts:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=529.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=630.0
Until atheists become peace based, they will fail at being 'humane
humans' just as theists fail, since most theists are not authentic in
their practice and run by fear as well.
Fear of the law, fear of God, fear of bad karma, fear of hell...those
fears do not make one 'authentic' in one's peace practice.
Take away fear of the law, fear of God, fear of bad karma, fear of
hell and you have a different person.
Does the thief that does not steal because a policeman is looking a
truly honest person?
A truly virtuous life remains the same irrespective of such fears and
is not based on them.
Really the 'religion of the atheists' AKA secular humanism does not
fail the atheist...it is the atheist that fails to make use of the
wisdom that their religion offers them.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=640.0
The atheists failure is rooted in motivational ignorance and lack of
desire.
Until one sees a need to adopt a certain moral direction why would one
adopt it?
And motivation and direction is solely based on inner peace and a
desire to achieve it and not destroy others inner peace.
But, the atheist is ignorant of what inner peace means, how to achieve
inner peace as well as what destroys others inner peace.
A good start to see what does motivate oneself is to ask yourself why
you wish to do something?
Is it for inner peace?
Or to massage your ego?
Or scared to go to hell?
Or because it feels good?
Or to improve ones karmic debt?
Or because others say so?
Or to hurt another?
Or to fit in...as Peter van Velzen had expressed?
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=646.0
What is your driving force?
Fear based reasons for doing something are not authentic and natural
actions.
The persons actions are based on negative consequences otherwise they
would not do them.
My actions are based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my
peace - it is my choice.
Put your inner peace foremost and you will have your answer. When you
align real and authentic actions with those that promote inner peace
you have found enlightenment.
The facts are this: when people are devoid of religion...they
generally stink as humans.
Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.
When you get rid of one thing, it makes room for another.
Sure atheist can succeed at pointing to the flaws of religious
thought, but they have nothing to replace the flaws with.
So theists choose the lesser of two evils while on earth, with the
hopes of hitting the jackpot in the hereafter.
When atheists become successes at 'the religion of humanity,' you may
become more successful at replacing theist based religion.
Until that time..."a mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be
intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether
cultivated or neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful
seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will
fall therein and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen
And religion does a good job at controlling the weeds.
In its history, organized atheism has never succeeded at replacing
religion with real humanity and compassion.
The atheists talk a good story, but atheists fail miserably when it
comes to practical application of the 'peace talk.'
And really the vast majority of atheists don't even have 'the talk' to
spout, since they have no semblance of inner peace themselves in order
to form a basis of 'lip service' to pontificate.
Another reason atheists will never win, is in general it takes hatred
to fuel atheism if one is a dogmatic, militant atheist.
Hatred blinds one to peace.
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.philosophy/browse_thread/thread/f4006812a06f9ddf
When you lose the hatred and militant foundation, then you do not wish
to destroy others or their religion....you are at peace to let them be
religious.
Sure you do not let others destroy you with religion, you tell them
the facts that they run by faith, so do not get too high and mighty
and start forcing you into the religion against your will.
But you only fight in a measured way of self defense, instead of the
offensive atheists that sets out to destroy 'all faith based beliefs'
just for the sheer joy of hurting another.
Sure tearing others down appeals to one's ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a
different way to find self worth.
As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well.
As you give so you receive.
Is that from the bible or karma?
No, it is just universal law.
Do we like to be beaten down?
Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed
in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well
as others peace.
It takes no energy from me to pass something by and leave it alone in
peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to pick something up
to destroy it.
When I posted this paragraph earlier, an atheist piped to accuse me of
hypocrisy, telling me that I destroy a potato when I pick it up to eat
it, so I am a liar.
Natural law dictates I must eat, but there is no law that says I must
spew venom from my mouth to destroy others.
If atheists can get over fishing for red herrings and get onto bigger
fish to fry they will see a world of difference in their peace
practice.
The destruction of inner peace by destroying potatoes comes about when
I destroy my neighbors crop field of potatoes by poisoning them to
bankrupt him in order to take over his farmland...it does not come
about by eating a potato.
The God of Nature gives me potatoes to eat, the God of Inner Peace
tells me to not eat potatoes in excess or to destroy others if I wish
to be at peace. I cannot see either God, I know not how these God's
work, I just know they are and I can abide by their guidance or be
defiant to these Gods and end up destroying my life and the lives of
others.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0
Yes, there are theists that stink. See: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html
I will be the first to admit that religion has done lots of harm but I
will also say religion done lots of right.
And just as the question of God cannot be answered with any certainty,
so goes the question of whether the world would have been better off
without religion or not.
It is a question that cannot be answered like it was in the movie
"It's a Wonderful life.'
But lets look at the facts and see that the vast, vast majority of
people are theists or believe in hereafter, so the pot is enormous
that we draw from when we pull out examples of evildoing theists that
the atheists like to parade around.
The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
hate a religious based country like the USA move to China or Russia.
Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.
In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
one bullet to the head...then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
family of the executed prisoner. That is where separation of state and
religion can lead a country. Once religion is out of politics, then
the only thing left in control is ego.
They say Hitler was a Catholic?
I don't know if he was Catholic or not.
I do know that Hitler did not practice even the most basic tenants of
Christianity.
It takes more than lip service to be a 'practicing' Catholic,
Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or Hebrew follower.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701
Now, some 'spiritually based atheist's can far surpasses many theists
in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
of atheist' you are talking about?
But these sort of atheists are very rare to encounter, as spiritual
values and atheism do not generally mix.
"People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
want to go back."
A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
they seek.
It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.
So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.
And if the atheists is honest they will see they do not run their
lives solely by logic and are no better than the theist that runs
their lives by faith.
No, logic only goes so far in life. For what is logical is not always
practical when it comes to humans ... is it?
Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.
Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect - but we can all do
better at being humans if we try to be more humane.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0
There are many flavors of atheists...natural atheists, personal
atheists, explicit atheists, implicit atheists weak atheists, strong
atheists, discovery atheists, reactionary atheists, indoctrinated
atheists and of course the bad ***** atheists with attitude aka BAAWA
varieties.
But the defining characteristic that leads an atheist to peace is
whether they are a 'spiritual based atheist' or 'defiance based
atheist.''
The business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life
at peace. Egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to
be open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your
growth and sustenance for life - as no one person is god.
As a freethinking agnostic I AM FREE to look for truth wherever the
road takes me. I discriminate against no one. As such, I study with
the Christians, the Buddhists, the Jews, the Muslims, the Taoists and
even find truth as I study with the atheists.
See:
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0
When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace.
I suggest any atheists wishing to find inner peace within their life
adopt the creed of the atheists (their version of prepackaged morals)
and start actually practicing the wisdom that their religion of
secular humanism offers them.
The 'informal creed' of atheism.
An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow
man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital
should be built instead of a church.
An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer
said.
An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He
wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/
"The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles"
* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.
* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.
* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.
* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.
* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.
* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.
* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.
* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.
* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.
* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that
we are capable of as human beings.
Council for Secular Humanism
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
Urban Homesteader
AA#2
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| User: "CortxVortx CortxVortx@restmass" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
26 Dec 2007 05:12:44 PM |
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V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in
news:a6d35db0-008c-4994-9289-917af14346cb@s48g2000hss.googlegroups.com:
Sure it is a religion...secular humanists.
But is a failed religion.
snip clueless babble
"The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles"
* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.
* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.
* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.
* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.
* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.
* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.
* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.
* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.
* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.
* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that
we are capable of as human beings.
Council for Secular Humanism
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
Futurist
Urban Homesteader
AA#2
That's about the only useful text in your entire rant.
You really don't know much about secular humanism; as a consequence, you made
a royal fool of yourself.
--
"Evolution can be mean -- there's no 'dumb-*****' vaccine." -- Jimmy Buffett
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
26 Dec 2007 09:13:26 PM |
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On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:12:44 -0600, CortxVortx wrote:
V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in
news:a6d35db0-008c-4994-9289-917af14346cb@s48g2000hss.googlegroups.com:
Sure it is a religion...secular humanists.
But is a failed religion.
snip clueless babble
But then there would be nothing left...
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a
way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna
live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else
pours dirt in their holes.
"Climb out of your holes people!"
- Dr. House, on faith
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
28 Dec 2007 08:40:24 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:mrhb45-j53.ln1@eac.exists.not...
On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:12:44 -0600, CortxVortx wrote:
V <vfr44@aol.com> wrote in
news:a6d35db0-008c-4994-9289-917af14346cb@s48g2000hss.googlegroups.com:
Sure it is a religion...secular humanists.
But is a failed religion.
snip clueless babble
But then there would be nothing left...
But there was never anything to begin with!
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "Syd M." |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
28 Dec 2007 02:16:42 PM |
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On Dec 28, 9:40 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in messagenews:mrhb45-j53.ln1@eac.exists.not...
On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:12:44 -0600, CortxVortx wrote:
V <vf...@aol.com> wrote in
news:a6d35db0-008c-4994-9289-917af14346cb@s48g2000hss.googlegroups.com:
Sure it is a religion...secular humanists.
But is a failed religion.
snip clueless babble
But then there would be nothing left...
But there was never anything to begin with!
Lady's got a point, Mark..
PDW
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
28 Dec 2007 04:21:04 PM |
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On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 12:16:42 -0800, Syd M. wrote:
On Dec 28, 9:40 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in
messagenews:mrhb45-j53.ln1@eac.exists.not...
On Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:12:44 -0600, CortxVortx wrote:
V <vf...@aol.com> wrote in
news:a6d35db0-008c-4994-9289-917af14346cb@s48g2000hss.googlegroups.com:
Sure it is a religion...secular humanists.
But is a failed religion.
snip clueless babble
But then there would be nothing left...
But there was never anything to begin with!
Lady's got a point, Mark..
But there was a big word salad there, I swear!
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“The worst government is often the most moral.
One composed of cynics is often very tolerant and humane.
But when fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression.”
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
21 Dec 2007 06:27:05 PM |
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On Dec 22, 10:03 am, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
I had a quick look at the site you quoted, from a Christian viewpoint
-
All-encompassing dogmatism - Actually atheism is very dogmatic. Five
minutes looking at this website will confirm that. Anyone who
questions atheism is immediately labelled an idiot, and beyond
intellectual redemption.
Churches: There are secular societies eg. Australian Humanists
Society, which exist for no other reason than the propagation of
atheism, and in that sense have a central focus.
Rituals and Rules - I should imagine that whenever the Australian
Humanists Society meets for example, there are certain procedures
which they follow. They may not be much more onerous that normal
committee rulings, but they would have some ritual and rite.
Some religions have ancient holy books which cannot be questioned -
In some quarters the intellectual books are held in very high esteem
eg. the Humanist Manifesto. Incidentally Bible Scholarship exists for
the very purpose of questioning Scripture, or at least it's various
forms and origins.
Worship of invisible persons or forces - Atheism almost seems to
worship human ability, although we did not create ourselves (nor did
unguided mud).
Myths, for instance about the origin of the universe or the
afterlife. - To my mind, atheism is one big myth - a huge one. It
chooses a grand scenario of an uncaused Big Bang, the grand
concentration of matter, the first tenous origins of life, an
extremely unlikely progression to higher life against all the odds,
and then a great Welt-Dammerung as the universe either grows cold or
collapses on itself in a gigiantic fireball.
Provides a sense of identity - An atheist will call himself an
atheist, and draw part of his identity and thinking from that basis.
Truth reaveld by "Divine" action - In atheism, truth is revealed by
glorified mud. (and pigs might fly)
Community-building efforts Correct - Atheists do not build
communities in any signficant sense. Just about all major social
impetus eg. charity, hospitals, unions, parliamentary law, anti-
slavery etc. have Christian action and thought behind them. Even
today, most charities and service agencies are Christian based. The
most profoundly atheist societies to date - the Bolshevik socieities -
killed millions.
Promotion of religious art and culture to support religious dogmatism
- Jackson Pollock, an atheist, based his art on meaninglessness.
A brief look at much of today's hedonistic pop culture would reveal an
underlying atheism and lack of purpose or values.
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
21 Dec 2007 11:45:05 PM |
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<bobcrowley@acenet.net.au> wrote
On Dec 22, 10:03 am, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
I had a quick look at the site you quoted, from a Christian viewpoint
-
All-encompassing dogmatism - Actually atheism is very dogmatic.
Atheism isn't dogmatic anymore than not believing Batman created the
universe is dogmatic.
Five
minutes looking at this website will confirm that. Anyone who
questions atheism is immediately labelled an idiot, and beyond
intellectual redemption.
I doubt anyone says that. It's well known that people give up
superstition all the time.
Myths, for instance about the origin of the universe or the
afterlife. - To my mind, atheism is one big myth - a huge one. It
chooses a grand scenario of an uncaused Big Bang,
The big bang is simply a hypothesis to account for the Doppler shift
evidence that most galaxies are moving away from each other.
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Mr D. Mr" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
21 Dec 2007 07:41:17 PM |
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<bobcrowley@acenet.net.au> wrote in message
news:4109ec3c-497c-40fb-9c5f-4ed6ff6598bb@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 22, 10:03 am, Joe <useful_in...@yahoo.com> wrote:
No. And here are some of the reasons.
http://home.comcast.net/~plutarch/atheism.html
I had a quick look at the site you quoted, from a Christian viewpoint
-
All-encompassing dogmatism - Actually atheism is very dogmatic.
And here I proudly present the entire 'dogma' of atheism.
Ready? It goes like this:
--------
WE
DON'T
BELIEVE
YOU
--------
Ya got that...?
M.
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 04:31:55 PM |
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On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:41:17 +0000, Mr D. wrote:
And here I proudly present the entire 'dogma' of atheism.
Ready? It goes like this:
--------
WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
Thank you for that excellent demonstration of how one atheist imposes his
theology on all atheists. It is implicit in "we". Furthermore, no appeal
to *truth* is made -- this atheist, speaking for all, reveals that his
problem is with "you".
This is no secret of course and is quite clear to anyone that has been
here for a while.
You might expect some lively debate *between* atheists as to whether some
kind of god could possibly exist; recently just this question was proposed
and the writer of that question was very quickly corrected by the more
dogmatic atheists who informed the writer that the question was itself
stupid, why debate something that does not and cannot exist?
The religion *mechanism* exists in nearly all humans and obviously serves
a purpose. One might choose to disbelieve god, but the mechanism is still
there; you need to believe *someone*. So, a secular religion forms around
Dawkins (as an example). Just as hundreds of Christian denominations
exist, so too will many atheist religions exist, some of them more
rational than others.
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 05:27:26 PM |
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Michael wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:41:17 +0000, Mr D. wrote:
And here I proudly present the entire 'dogma' of atheism.
Ready? It goes like this:
-------- WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
Thank you for that excellent demonstration of how one atheist
imposes his theology on all atheists.
I guess it was just too deep for you to understand. Why do you
need to lie about Atheists?
--
Dave
You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents,
not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
- Abbie Hoffman
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| User: "Charles & Mambo Duckman" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 06:34:14 PM |
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Michael wrote:
And here I proudly present the entire 'dogma' of atheism.
Ready? It goes like this:
--------
WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
Thank you for that excellent demonstration of how one atheist imposes his
theology on all atheists. It is implicit in "we". Furthermore, no appeal
to *truth* is made -- this atheist, speaking for all, reveals that his
problem is with "you".
I am simply amazed at the depth of your stupidity. In the first time in
years, I am actually rendered speechless by what I am reading. Congratulations.
The rest of the post snipped for sanity.
--
Come down off the cross
We can use the wood
Tom Waits, Come On Up To The House
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
25 Dec 2007 10:44:05 AM |
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On Dec 24, 2:31=A0pm, Michael <newsus...@orneveien.org> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:41:17 +0000, Mr D. wrote:
And here I proudly present the entire 'dogma' of atheism.
Ready? It goes like this:
--------
WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
Thank you for that excellent demonstration of how one atheist imposes his
theology on all atheists.
By definition an atheist does not believe a theist. No one is imposing
anything.
And look up the word "theology" while you're at it, it would help
communication if you used the same definition of words as the rest of
the English speaking population does.
=A0It is implicit in "we".
No, it's not. It's a fact. To say an atheist does not believe a theist
is like saying water is wet.
=A0Furthermore, no appeal
to *truth* is made -- this atheist, speaking for all, reveals that his
problem is with "you".
He was stating facts. The problem IS with you. As in you, as a theist,
cannot provide objective and verifiable evidence that your God exists.
All these posts you make trying to shift the blame onto atheists is
not working; doing that is not evidence for your God. Attempting to
make athesists seem dogmatic or hypocritcal is not evidence for your
God. Try a different tactic.
This is no secret of course and is quite clear to anyone that has been
here for a while.
You assume you proved your point; I don't know why you would.
You might expect some lively debate *between* atheists as to whether some
kind of god could possibly exist;
Why would you expect that? We're atheists. The agnostic newsgroup is
down the hall...
recently just this question was proposed
and the writer of that question was very quickly corrected by the more
dogmatic atheists who informed the writer that the question was itself
stupid, why debate something that does not and cannot exist? =A0
Can you post a link to that thread? Forgive me, but I don't trust you
to tell the truth, and I don't trust you to interpret things
correctly.
The religion *mechanism* exists in nearly all humans and obviously serves
a purpose.
Unsupported assertion. What do you mean by "mechanism?"
=A0One might choose to disbelieve god, but the mechanism is still
there; you need to believe *someone*.
Unsupported assertion.
=A0So, a secular religion forms around
Dawkins (as an example).
Complete misunderstanding of language, manipulative equivocation. It's
hilarious that someone who is religious doesn't know what the word
"religion" means. Anyone who owns a dictionary knows that you are a
liar.
=A0Just as hundreds of Christian denominations
exist, so too will many atheist religions exist, some of them more
rational than others.
How many variations of "we don't believe you" do you think there are?
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 07:16:42 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:31:55 -0700, Michael wrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:41:17 +0000, Mr D. wrote:
And here I proudly present the entire 'dogma' of atheism.
Ready? It goes like this:
--------
WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU
Thank you for that excellent demonstration of how one atheist imposes
his theology on all atheists.
You're a kook.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
Humanity's first sin was faith; the first virtue was doubt.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
24 Dec 2007 07:17:34 PM |
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On Mon, 24 Dec 2007 15:31:55 -0700, Michael wrote:
You might expect some lively debate *between* atheists as to whether
some kind of god could possibly exist;
Interesting that simply cannot fathom there are people who do not share
your assumptions about reality.
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“In this world of sin and sorrow there is always
something to be thankful for; as for me,
I rejoice that I am not a Republican.”
- H. L. Mencken
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| User: "Smack the Pack" |
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| Title: Re: Is atheism becoming a religion? |
25 Dec 2007 12:04:35 AM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote total *****.
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