Is Atheism Logical?



 Religions > Atheism > Is Atheism Logical?

LINK TO THIS PAGE  


rating :  0   |  0


  Page 1 of 1

1

 
Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "TRUECRISTIAN"
Date: 02 May 2006 09:00:18 AM
Object: Is Atheism Logical?
The argument over the existence of God has been around for a long time.
The issue itself is not the argument, because no matter the arguments,
there cannot be certian validity. There are great minds on both sides
of the debate, but one must realize that there all limitations to logic
and argumentation. It is only a indication of what reality is, not a
fabrication of what reality is( you don't use arguments to
"create"/tell what is real, arguments are used to indicate what is
real. One has to realize the multitude of presuppositions before
anything can be said. First of it is assumed that there is some
standard by which way to distinguish between truth and untruth. In
philosophical debate, this is typically the law of noncontradiction,
stating that two oposing premises cannot exist both at the same time.
Which, in this topic, the discussion is the existence or nonexistence
of God. Also, one must note the lack of evidence doesn't equal evidence
of lack. We know the the Loch Ness monster and UFO's don't exist
because we have evidence against the fact, not the fact that there is a
lack of evidence, so one presumes nonexistence. The Atheist "proof" of
saying there is not enough evidence is not a viable argument.
Historically, nothing has been proven by the lack of evidence, but
rather by evidence pointing to lack or to existence. Zero evidence
shows nothing. Thus, the atheist relies on presumptousness, which is
not correct. There must be evidence against fact of God. Also the
argument is using false logic. Conisder this statement: "If i am 18
then i am an adult." One can logically conclude this statement "If i am
not an adult, then i am not 18", but the statement "if i am not 18,
then i am not an adult", is an invalid statement, which is the type of
logic some atheistic proofs use. Also, the idea of arguing from
stritcly physical/seen evidence is an incredibly weak argument. How
does on then come to show anything of logic or emotions? You can't see
them. Thus, sight, and physical evidence is not enough to make a valid
conclusion. Another thing, is that the atheist premise is an absolute
negation, which is a logical fallacy. It simply states "there is
absolutely nothing absolute" which violates the law of
noncontradiction. One might at this point try to disestablish the law
of noncontradiction and use what is called "both/and" logic, but even
implict within it, one is assuming that the "both/and" system is
correct, thus showing the correctness of "either/or" logic, known as
the law of noncontradicton. As one can cleary see, the atheistic
arguments utterly fail. They do not meet standards of logic, empirical
evidence. One must not presume from this though, that since the
argument for atheism is at fault, ///
.

User: "Denis Loubet"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 02:31:55 PM
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1146578418.744017.73950@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


The argument over the existence of God has been around for a long time.

Blah, blah, blah.
When some guy claims there's a god, and another person says "I don't believe
you", there's nothing that needs to be justified, logically or otherwise.
Sheesh.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:25:44 PM
On Tue, 2 May 2006 14:31:55 -0500, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:


"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1146578418.744017.73950@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


The argument over the existence of God has been around for a long time.


Blah, blah, blah.

When some guy claims there's a god, and another person says "I don't believe
you", there's nothing that needs to be justified, logically or otherwise.

Sheesh.

It's your funeral, loubert.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.


User: "Llanzlan Klazmon"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 04:41:31 PM
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in news:1146578418.744017.73950
@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:


The argument over the existence of God has been around for a long time.
The issue itself is not the argument, because no matter the arguments,
there cannot be certian validity. There are great minds on both sides
of the debate, but one must realize that there all limitations to logic
and argumentation.

Irrelevant. Existence claims are only establised by verifiable empirical
evidence. By the way if by "God" you are talking of the
Christo/Judaic/Islamic varieties. Epicurus disproved all gods of that sort
over two thousand years ago. Those gods can only exist if many of the
properties their believers claim they have are false.
Klazmon.
lazmon.
.

User: "J Forbes"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 09:24:52 AM
Deities are not observed, so atheism is the logical (default) stance.
Although you most likely can't comprehend what atheism actually is,
because religion has you in it's grip.
Jim
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:25:13 PM
On 2 May 2006 07:24:52 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Deities are not observed, so atheism is the logical (default) stance.

Until you consider the evidence, the default for atheism is eternal torment in
hell.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:42:56 PM
In article <q0nf521tih3ahtu0t6697euf1a1eogktiu@4ax.com> duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> writes:

On 2 May 2006 07:24:52 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Deities are not observed, so atheism is the logical (default) stance.


Until you consider the evidence, the default for atheism is eternal torment in
hell.

Oh, and for most self-styled Christians too.
Will YOU be able to pass the test come that Day, Duke?:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate
them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the
goats:
.
.
.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye
cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye
gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an
hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison,
and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as
ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment
.
.
.

[Matt 25]
How about it, Duke, Are you so daily devoted to succoring
of the poor and the unfortunate and the disenfranchised that you
will pass the test Jesus promises to impose on you? Visited any prisons lately?
Or do you think that Jesus is going to say "Hey! Just KIDDING!!!"?
-- cary
.
User: "TRUECRISTIAN"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 06:53:47 PM
ARGUMENT FROM NON-BELIEF
1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.
(I don't find this to be self-evident nor a clear conclusion from
skripture, but I'll grant it if by it we mean that all humans
eventually know God since I can't imagine that God would want a human
that is, say only a day old, to know that God exists)
2.) If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidences are sufficient
for ALL to know that he exists. (perhaps, but it may be that no
possible evidence is sufficient for certain people, viz. severely
mentally handicapped.)
3.) Not ALL people believe in God. (but I think everyone will
eventually know that God exists.... Perhaps the argument works best if
we say not everyone believes in God during their earthly existence, but
if that's what we mean, then I would deny premise 1, since I don't
think God wants a human who dies at the age of 2 days to have believed
in Him prior to her death... of course this may just push the question
back a step - "Why does God allow the early death?" I think part of
the answer is that God has heirarchical desires explained below)
.
User: "thomas p"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 03 May 2006 07:05:53 AM
On 2 May 2006 16:53:47 -0700, "TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM>
wrote:

ARGUMENT FROM NON-BELIEF

snip
You have no evidence. Your claims are incredible. I do not believe
you.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.



User: "J Forbes"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 03 May 2006 12:55:43 AM
duke wrote:

On 2 May 2006 07:24:52 -0700, "J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote:

Deities are not observed, so atheism is the logical (default) stance.


Until you consider the evidence, the default for atheism is eternal torment in
hell.

since hell is also make believe, I don't give a rat's *****
Jim
.



User: "Hotel Charlie One"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 10:00:53 AM
It is highly unlikely that you have received a brain transplant, about
as likely as the return of the dead carpenter. So could you please
cite from where cut and pasted this?
--
The actions of the disgraceful Clinton and Bush administrations
make it possible for me to say without shame that I deeply regret
the day I put the uniform of my country. The freedoms that I was
willing to protect with my life are gone. The America of our founders
is dead. All we are waiting for now is rigor mortis.
HotelCharlieOne
.

User: "Lukas Mariman"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 11:47:39 AM
Not only is it logical, it is pretty much the ONLY logical POV concerning
religious issues.
I can't speak for others, but to me it is very simple.
I see no reason to believe in gods, primarily because no one has yet been
able to prove their existence, in spite of all manner of grandiose claims.
Therefore I don't believe. That seems pretty logical to me.
.
User: "M Dunne"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 03 May 2006 03:42:29 AM
"Lukas Mariman" <lukas.mariman@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:44578d16$0$2131$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...

Not only is it logical, it is pretty much the ONLY logical POV concerning
religious issues.

I can't speak for others, but to me it is very simple.

I see no reason to believe in gods, primarily because no one has yet been
able to prove their existence, in spite of all manner of grandiose claims.

Exactly. Whenever these 'faithful' idiots try to pretend that there's even a
shred of support for their fairy-stories, they need to be reminded:
"You've got *nothing*. You think your precious 'Jesus' existed? You've got
no
credible genealogy; you've got no birth; you've got no birthplace; you've
got no traces of the life; you've got no traces of the arrest; you've got no
traces of the trial; you've got no traces of the death; and your
'resurrection' myths are ludicrous. You think your precious 'faith' has a
basis? Your texts are not old enough; they have no provenance; they pirate
from each other; they're too self-contradictory; they're too heavily
redacted; they're too derivative; and the 'miracles' they describe are
ludicrous. Your dogmas are rooted in power politics and self-delusion; your
rituals are rooted in infantilism and psychopathology; your historical
'corroboration' is tainted with faith-based forgery and manipulation; your
'Churches' are corrupt, schismatic, avaricious, pederastic, power-grabbing
mega-corporations; and your 'religious leaders' are ludicrous. Your myths
are stolen; your 'festivals' are borrowed; your iconography is second-hand;
your 'academic theology' is an anti-empirical, academic circle-jerk; and
your attempts to pretend that none of this is the case are ludicrous. Jesus
fucking wept: how much *worse* than this does it have to get before you
idiots manage to spot that *you've been right royally HAAAAD*...?!?!"
M.
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 11:53:03 AM
On Tue, 2 May 2006 18:47:39 +0200, "Lukas Mariman"
<lukas.mariman@skynet.be> wrote:

Not only is it logical, it is pretty much the ONLY logical POV concerning
religious issues.

I can't speak for others, but to me it is very simple.

I see no reason to believe in gods, primarily because no one has yet been
able to prove their existence, in spite of all manner of grandiose claims.

Therefore I don't believe. That seems pretty logical to me.

Yet so many theists can't grasp this simple concept.
.


User: "Scott Richter"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 10:35:10 AM
TRUECRISTIAN <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote:

We know the the Loch Ness monster and UFO's don't exist because we have
evidence against the fact, not the fact that there is a lack of evidence,
so one presumes nonexistence.

Oh, really? And what "evidence against the fact" do you have? I'd say
there's as much evidence for the existence of UFOs as there is for God.
More fundamentally, we can fairly easily agree on the definition of what
a UFO is--something no one seems to be able to do about their imaginary
father figures. Defending God is done through deliberate obfuscation,
after all, you can't disprove what you can't define.

There must be evidence against fact of God.

Sigh... Do you have any idea how many times people have presented this
false argument, only to get the same response? It is not incumbent on
atheists to provide anything, period.
The existence of God is an extraordinary claim made without any
evidence:
"Forgotten were the elementary rules of logic, that extraordinary claims
require extraordinary evidence and that what can be asserted without
evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." --Christopher Hitchens

Also, the idea of arguing from stritcly physical/seen evidence is an
incredibly weak argument.

Yeah, facts are highly overrated... Those who belong to the "reality
based" community can't hold a candle against arguments based on
supernatural beliefs and ancient mythology.

Another thing, is that the atheist premise is an absolute negation, which
is a logical fallacy. It simply states "there is absolutely nothing
absolute" which violates the law of noncontradiction. One might at this
point try to disestablish the law of noncontradiction and use what is
called "both/and" logic, but even implict within it, one is assuming that
the "both/and" system is correct, thus showing the correctness of
"either/or" logic, known as the law of noncontradicton. As one can cleary
see, the atheistic arguments utterly fail.

Perhaps you can "clearly see" this string of nonsense, but your
interpretation of the law of noncontradiction is completely wrong.

They do not meet standards of logic, empirical evidence. One must not
presume from this though, that since the argument for atheism is at fault,
///

Come back when you have something interesting to say.
.
User: "duke"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:30:10 PM
On Tue, 2 May 2006 08:35:10 -0700,
(Scott Richter)
wrote:

Oh, really? And what "evidence against the fact" do you have? I'd say
there's as much evidence for the existence of UFOs as there is for God.

That seals the deal. Somewhere's out there is the 14.5 billion year history of
the universe if a UFO, guaranteed.

Come back when you have something interesting to say.

You find something to suggest "no God".
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
User: "Cary Kittrell"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:45:18 PM
In article <i7nf5218ijsl9evcugn3lg5rson16o0feq@4ax.com> duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> writes:

On Tue, 2 May 2006 08:35:10 -0700,

(Scott Richter)
wrote:

Oh, really? And what "evidence against the fact" do you have? I'd say
there's as much evidence for the existence of UFOs as there is for God.


That seals the deal. Somewhere's out there is the 14.5 billion year history of
the universe if a UFO, guaranteed.

Really? So, what's your solution to Fermi's Paradox then?
-- cary
.

User: "Adam H"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 06:21:57 PM
On Tue, 02 May 2006 17:30:10 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Tue, 2 May 2006 08:35:10 -0700,

(Scott Richter)
wrote:

Oh, really? And what "evidence against the fact" do you have? I'd say
there's as much evidence for the existence of UFOs as there is for God.


That seals the deal. Somewhere's out there is the 14.5 billion year history of
the universe if a UFO, guaranteed.

Come back when you have something interesting to say.


You find something to suggest "no God".

No evidence suggests no god. That's over with.
---
I contend we are both atheists - I just believe in
one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you reject all other gods,
you will understand why I reject yours as well.
- Stephen F. Roberts
.

User: "Scott Richter"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 09:13:25 PM
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

That seals the deal. Somewhere's out there is the 14.5 billion year
history of the universe if a UFO, guaranteed.

Do you ever bother to read what you type?

duke, American-American Idiot-Idiot
*****
"The ***** is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul LXIX
*****

.
User: "BDK"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 03 May 2006 01:01:41 AM
In article <1heq59y.pec7xc1hhjb2cN%scottrichter422@yahoo.com>,
scottrichter422@yahoo.com says...

duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

That seals the deal. Somewhere's out there is the 14.5 billion year
history of the universe if a UFO, guaranteed.


Do you ever bother to read what you type?


duke, American-American Idiot-Idiot
*****
"The ***** is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul LXIX
*****


Nah, it just comes out of him, like when you get bad food poisoning and
the ***** just explodes out of you.
If you haven't experienced it, it's amazing. And amazingly painful.
BDK
.




User: "DanielSan"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 09:03:41 AM
TRUECRISTIAN wrote:
"Is Atheism Logical?"
Yes.
--
*****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*---------------------------------------------------*
* "You can safely assume that you've created God in *
* your own image when it turns out that God hates *
* all the same people you do." --Anne Lamott *
*****************************************************
--
.
User: "Uncle Vic"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:52:29 PM
DanielSan wrote:

TRUECRISTIAN wrote:

"Is Atheism Logical?"

Yes.

Not only that, but religion, especially Christianity, is illogical. The
belief that a god killed his own son to save his own creation from his
own wrath is just as silly as believing Santa Claus delivers toys to the
children of the world in one night, and keeps a list of who of billions
is naughty and who is nice.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Member, Earthquack's 666 club
Supervisor, EAC department of little adhesive-backed shiny plastic
L-shaped doo-dads to add feet to Jesus Fish department
It is safe to say that the bible contains equal amounts of fact, history
and pizza.
-Penn Jillette
.


User: "Bill"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 12:32:16 PM
Your getting your knickers tied in a knot. The evidence is pretty basic and
simple.
The Universe has been around for about 14 BILLION years. Mankind has existed
on earth for more than 100,000 years.
During this time span there is NO objective verifiable evidence that any god
has appeared or communicated with man. and no evidence of the actual
existence of any god.
There are thousands of god 'beliefs' but no god has declared he is the real
god and the others are all fakes.
Even the so called believers base their beliefs on pure 'faith' not on any
objective verifiable evidence.
When there is only total darkness it is reasonable to assume there is no
light.
If god would like to convert 'atheists' all he has to do is appear from his
heaven and demonstrate his existence.
"TRUECRISTIAN" <XL3@OPERAMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:1146578418.744017.73950@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...


The argument over the existence of God has been around for a long time.
The issue itself is not the argument, because no matter the arguments,
there cannot be certian validity. There are great minds on both sides
of the debate, but one must realize that there all limitations to logic
and argumentation. It is only a indication of what reality is, not a
fabrication of what reality is( you don't use arguments to
"create"/tell what is real, arguments are used to indicate what is
real. One has to realize the multitude of presuppositions before
anything can be said. First of it is assumed that there is some
standard by which way to distinguish between truth and untruth. In
philosophical debate, this is typically the law of noncontradiction,
stating that two oposing premises cannot exist both at the same time.
Which, in this topic, the discussion is the existence or nonexistence
of God. Also, one must note the lack of evidence doesn't equal evidence
of lack. We know the the Loch Ness monster and UFO's don't exist
because we have evidence against the fact, not the fact that there is a
lack of evidence, so one presumes nonexistence. The Atheist "proof" of
saying there is not enough evidence is not a viable argument.
Historically, nothing has been proven by the lack of evidence, but
rather by evidence pointing to lack or to existence. Zero evidence
shows nothing. Thus, the atheist relies on presumptousness, which is
not correct. There must be evidence against fact of God. Also the
argument is using false logic. Conisder this statement: "If i am 18
then i am an adult." One can logically conclude this statement "If i am
not an adult, then i am not 18", but the statement "if i am not 18,
then i am not an adult", is an invalid statement, which is the type of
logic some atheistic proofs use. Also, the idea of arguing from
stritcly physical/seen evidence is an incredibly weak argument. How
does on then come to show anything of logic or emotions? You can't see
them. Thus, sight, and physical evidence is not enough to make a valid
conclusion. Another thing, is that the atheist premise is an absolute
negation, which is a logical fallacy. It simply states "there is
absolutely nothing absolute" which violates the law of
noncontradiction. One might at this point try to disestablish the law
of noncontradiction and use what is called "both/and" logic, but even
implict within it, one is assuming that the "both/and" system is
correct, thus showing the correctness of "either/or" logic, known as
the law of noncontradicton. As one can cleary see, the atheistic
arguments utterly fail. They do not meet standards of logic, empirical
evidence. One must not presume from this though, that since the
argument for atheism is at fault, ///

.
User: "Geoff"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 04:55:51 PM
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wIM5g.57860$Jk3.39316@bignews5.bellsouth.net...

Your getting your knickers tied in a knot. The evidence is pretty basic
and simple.

The Universe has been around for about 14 BILLION years. Mankind has
existed on earth for more than 100,000 years.

During this time span there is NO objective verifiable evidence that any
god has appeared or communicated with man. and no evidence of the actual
existence of any god.

Wow! Do you mean to say that there is not one piece of objective evidence
for a god that is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, and
omnifuckingbelievable?
You could knock me over with a fattie spleef!
.

User: "duke"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 05:27:40 PM
On Tue, 2 May 2006 13:32:16 -0400, "Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:

Your getting your knickers tied in a knot. The evidence is pretty basic and
simple.

The Universe has been around for about 14 BILLION years. Mankind has existed
on earth for more than 100,000 years.

and maybe as much as 4.5 billion years.

During this time span there is NO objective verifiable evidence that any god
has appeared or communicated with man. and no evidence of the actual
existence of any god.

Sure there is. Jesus died on the cross and on the third day, the risen Lord
walked out.

There are thousands of god 'beliefs' but no god has declared he is the real
god and the others are all fakes.

That's why we turn to the evidence.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
User: "Scott Richter"

Title: Re: Is Atheism Logical? 02 May 2006 10:15:28 PM
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

Sure there is. Jesus died on the cross and on the third day, the risen Lord
walked out.

Ah, yes, the "Jesus as Superhero" fable. How quaint...

duke, American-American Idiot-Idiot
*****
"The ***** is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul LXIX
*****

.




  Page 1 of 1

1

 


Related Articles
 

NEWER

pg.3585     pg.2749     pg.2106     pg.1612     pg.1232     pg.940     pg.716     pg.544     pg.412     pg.311     pg.234     pg.175     pg.130     pg.96     pg.70     pg.50     pg.35     pg.24     pg.16     pg.10     pg.6     pg.3     pg.1

OLDER