| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Budikka666" |
| Date: |
30 Oct 2005 07:52:21 AM |
| Object: |
Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Budikka
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| User: "Malcolm" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 05:20:16 PM |
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"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Heterosexuals aren't usually interested in juveniles (a juvenile is
incapable of reproducing, the biological readiness and the legal age of
consent are not always the same).
For homosexuals, there is no such natural barrier. Hence the proportion of
homosexual men who are attracted to young boys is much higher than the
proportion of heterosexuals attracted to young girls.
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| User: "Bonnie Bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 05:46:21 PM |
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Malcolm wrote:
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Heterosexuals aren't usually interested in juveniles (a juvenile is
incapable of reproducing, the biological readiness and the legal age of
consent are not always the same).
For homosexuals, there is no such natural barrier. Hence the proportion of
homosexual men who are attracted to young boys is much higher than the
proportion of heterosexuals attracted to young girls.
Using this distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) found that none of
the
175 adult males in their sample all of whom were convicted in
Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child had an exclusively
homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 of the men (47%) were
classified
as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult
heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed
adult
bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in
their
adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as
with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their
preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually
attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).
Another researcher took a different perspective. Dr. Carole Jenny
reviewed
352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children
seen
in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver
children'shospital
during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30,1992). The
molester
was a gay or lesbian adult in only 2 of the 269 casesin which an adult
molester could be identified (less than 1% of the cases).
Conclusion
The empirical research on adult sexual orientation and molestation of
children does not show that gay men are any more likely than
heterosexual
men to molest children. This is not to suggest that molestations of
children by adult homosexual men never occur. They do. But molesting
children has nothing to do with whether a man is heterosexual or
homosexual.
from "Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation"
Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D.
"The vast majority of offenders are heterosexual men. Male offenders
who abuse young boys maintain adult heterosexual relationships."
- Roland Summit, M.D., Head Physician, Community Consultation
Service, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center.
"Perhaps the greatest misconception that perpetuates this myth is the
confusion around the term sexual orientation. Orientation refers to
feelings, self-concept, and social identity. Persons may or may not
express their orientation through behaviors." - Robert L. Smith, Ph.D.,
President, Kentucky Psychological
Association, "Misinformation on Gays", The Courier Journal, March 27,
1995.
"Sexual abuse of male children by adult men is often referred to as
'homosexual molestation,' which implies that the perpetrator is himself
gay or has a homosexual orientation. Usually, however, the
adjectives 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' really refer to the victim's
gender in relation to that of the perpetrator, not to the perpetrator's
sexual orientation." - Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., Department of
Psychology at UC Davis
"The belief that homosexuals are particularly attracted to children is
completely unsupported by our data... In our twelve years of work with
child molesters, we have found... the child offender who is also
attracted to and engaged in an adult sexual relationship is
heterosexual. The adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to
the underage child than does the homosexual male." - A.N. Groth and
H.J. Birnbaum, "Adult Sexual Orientation and Attraction to Underage
Persons", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1978, 7:175-181.
"A child is 100 more times more likely to be molested by a family
member than by a homosexual." - Dr. Carole Jenny, "Are Children at Risk
for Sexual Abuse by Homosexuals?", Pediatrics, July 1994, p. 41-44.
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 08:11:35 AM |
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"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
-- lapel button
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| User: "RS" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 08:55:44 AM |
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"Enkidu the Atheist" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns96FF3F05C4B4255229@130.133.1.4...
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself, forbids.
The Church doesn't expect celibacy or forbid marriage. A priest can marry
at any time, but must abandon his position to do so. Homosexuality (or
homosexual acts) are sexually unchast (as is fornication). If the Church
"accepted" all of these things, then the clergy would be of the world, which
it shouldn't be. The clergy isn't meant to represent the people, but stands
to serve the sacraments to the people. 1% of the priesthood has been found
guilty of pedophilia (why does everyone assume that involves homosexual
acts, since many of them involved man-to-woman interactions?)
Still, God lays down the sacraments for us. They aren't for us to change.
-RS
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| User: "Enkidu the Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 02:17:59 PM |
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"RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote in news:dk2n2p$ido$1@news3.bu.edu:
"Enkidu the Atheist" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns96FF3F05C4B4255229@130.133.1.4...
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the
Catholic church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its
priesthood? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times
(http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html) reports: "In
1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint with the
Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to threaten
its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens
of John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's
focused on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile
priests, and that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten
attmepts to conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests,
married priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the
people.
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself,
forbids. The Church doesn't expect celibacy or forbid marriage.
It does for it's priests, and there is no basis for this prohibition in
the Bible.
A priest can marry at any time, but must abandon his position to do so.
There is no basis for this prohibition in the Bible, and it is the root
of much evil.
Homosexuality (or homosexual acts) are sexually unchast (as is
fornication).
Not within marriage, and the Catholic church *did* perform marriages
between same sex couples in the past. Why not now?
If the Church "accepted" all of these things, then the
clergy would be of the world, which it shouldn't be.
It seems that a lot of the clergy is most certainly "of this world" in
every way this phrase can be interpreted.
The clergy isn't
meant to represent the people, but stands to serve the sacraments to
the people.
Perhaps, but priests are drawn *from the people*, and your current system
seems not to draw from among the best of the people, or if it does, it
often twists them into the worst of people.
1% of the priesthood has been found guilty of pedophilia
(why does everyone assume that involves homosexual acts, since many of
them involved man-to-woman interactions?)
I make no such assumption. On the contrary, I do not think homosexuality
and pedophilia are linked. I also believe that, like most crimes, less
than half the cases of abuse are reported, and that most priests who
violate their celibacy do so with women of legal age and commit no crime.
However, if 1% of any other group were guilty of pedophilia, you would
hear screams of rage from every quarter. One percent is an outrageously
high number, and a clear sign that the procedure used to select priests
is selecting *for* pedophiles, or the life of a priest creates
pedophiles.
Still, God lays down the sacraments for us. They aren't for us to
change.
Yet change them you do. Latin, anyone?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that
whosoever would believe in him would probably believe just about
anything.
-- unknown
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
03 Nov 2005 11:01:13 AM |
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On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 09:55:44 -0500, "RS" <rswarts@bu.edu> wrote:
"Enkidu the Atheist" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns96FF3F05C4B4255229@130.133.1.4...
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself, forbids.
Fictional characters can't forbid anything.
The Church doesn't expect celibacy or forbid marriage. A priest can marry
at any time, but must abandon his position to do so. Homosexuality (or
homosexual acts) are sexually unchast (as is fornication). If the Church
"accepted" all of these things, then the clergy would be of the world, which
it shouldn't be.
Which is why the superstition industry avoids reality like the Bubonic
Plague.
The clergy isn't meant to represent the people, but stands
to serve the sacraments to the people.
No. It stands for a bunch of hypocritical and lazy ***** control freaks
who can't even control themselves.
1% of the priesthood has been found
guilty of pedophilia (why does everyone assume that involves homosexual
acts, since many of them involved man-to-woman interactions?)
Still, God lays down the sacraments for us.
"God" doesn't do anything, moron.
They aren't for us to change.
Laughing at the dumb *****. They change all the time sport, based on
expediancy.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 09:25:23 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet RS (rswarts@bu.edu) made
the light shine upon us with this:
"Enkidu the Atheist" <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in message
news:Xns96FF3F05C4B4255229@130.133.1.4...
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the
Catholic church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its
priesthood? (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times
(http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html) reports: "In
1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint with the
Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to threaten
its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens
of John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's
focused on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile
priests, and that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten
attmepts to conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests,
married priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the
people.
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself,
forbids.
And how would you know, beyond the errant, ridiculous, absurd, wrong,
bigoted and historically, scientifically, and morally incorrect Bible,
what the ***** this "god" forbids?
The Church doesn't expect celibacy or forbid marriage. A
priest can marry at any time, but must abandon his position to do so.
Homosexuality (or homosexual acts) are sexually unchast (as is
fornication). If the Church "accepted" all of these things, then the
clergy would be of the world, which it shouldn't be. The clergy isn't
meant to represent the people, but stands to serve the sacraments to
the people. 1% of the priesthood has been found guilty of pedophilia
(why does everyone assume that involves homosexual acts, since many of
them involved man-to-woman interactions?)
Most Christian cults have different rules, which they claim are
biblically correct, but which contradict each other. Why should we
believe yours, or any of them, are correct?
Still, God lays down the sacraments for us. They aren't for us to
change.
There is no god, RS. These "sacraments" as you describe them, are
manmade and anti-social, as they define sinners who define you as
sinners. In the meantime, we non-believers crack another beer and enjoy
watching the audacity of it all.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
----
"The world is only 5-6 thousand years old does not mean the planet
earth is only 5-6 thousand years old. There have been many worlds
created and destroyed on this planet. The creation of the planet is
described in Genesis 1. The creation of the world is described in
Genesis 2. Two different kind of creations." --Eric Brze
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 03:23:50 PM |
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RS wrote:
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself, forbids.
That let's out all of the population then, since according to
mythology, we have all sinned.
The Church doesn't expect celibacy or forbid marriage. A priest can marry
at any time, but must abandon his position to do so. Homosexuality (or
homosexual acts) are sexually unchast (as is fornication). If the Church
"accepted" all of these things, then the clergy would be of the world, which
it shouldn't be.
Where in the Bible does it say that any god said that?
The clergy isn't meant to represent the people, but stands
to serve the sacraments to the people.
The clergy is in it for themselves. Always have been, always will be.
They are liars who claim they're somehow holier than people, and
therefore get this god's ear better than those common folk. Yeah,
right!
There's nothing in the Bible that says you have to have clergy. In
fact the Bible goes just the opposite way and tells you to talk
directly to the myth yourself. Or are you one of these so-called
Christians who makes up their own religion? Don't worry, you're not
alone in that. All believers have done it ever since religion was
invented. That's why there are or have been 20,000 sects in
Christianity alone.
1% of the priesthood has been found
guilty of pedophilia (why does everyone assume that involves homosexual
acts, since many of them involved man-to-woman interactions?)
How come this god of yours didn't kick them out? Or would he rather
have children molested?
Still, God lays down the sacraments for us.
Other than the primitive scribblings of superstitious and
scientifically ignorant men, where's the evidence for this?
They aren't for us to change.
Then why have they been consistently changed ever since those primitive
and scientifically ignorant men first started telling these myths?
Budikka
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
31 Oct 2005 05:40:48 AM |
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On 30 Oct 2005 13:23:50 -0800, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote:
RS wrote:
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself, forbids.
That let's out all of the population then, since according to
mythology, we have all sinned.
You just present your typical ignorance, bud the dud. Sin is not "accepted" but
to be confessed and absolved.
How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond me.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
31 Oct 2005 05:48:27 AM |
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"duke" wrote
: How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond me.
Are you speaking about yourself?
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
01 Nov 2005 05:11:16 AM |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 06:48:27 -0500, "Bear" <bigbear1wh@nativeweb.net> wrote:
"duke" wrote
: How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond me.
Are you speaking about yourself?
No, atheists.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Bear" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
01 Nov 2005 05:19:15 AM |
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"duke" wrote
: "Bear" wrote:
: >"duke" wrote
: >: How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond
me.
: >
: >Are you speaking about yourself?
:
: No, atheists.
Wrong again, but it seems like you don't mind being wrong.
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
03 Nov 2005 04:16:29 AM |
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You're trying to have an exchange with a professional moron! Duck
*****'s comments aren't born of smarts, logic, rational or evidence,
they're born of desperation. His comments aren't aimed at the material
- they rarely are.
Note that he never documents or supports a single thing he says,
whereas the cowardice and lies of this pathetic hypocrite for Christ
have been fully documented on Usenet. His despicable and unchristian
behavior, and his slanderous unfounded charges (he thinks turning the
other cheek means mooning someone) are why he was mass-plonked by
pretty near the entire regular set on a.a.:
http://tinyurl.com/9gycg
It's a sign of how pathetic he is, how low he's sinking and how
desperate he's become since he was cut off, that he now has to beg for
atheists to talk to him by posting inane rants against us - this from
the guy who claims to be a christian, who claims to do unto others as
he would be done by, and who lies about turning the other cheek!
His cowardice in "debate" or even discussion is legendary:
1. http://tinyurl.com/4dyok
2. http://tinyurl.com/664yu
3. http://tinyurl.com/apenc
He claims he can run rings around anyone on scripture, but when he was
actually taken up on his claim:
http://tinyurl.com/3z47u
he ran away!
He has over 16 documented lies:
http://tinyurl.com/5zlzx
http://tinyurl.com/ablwm
He regularly demands people open discussions on his god, and when they
do, he runs away. I personally had him run from the same topic over
120 times!
He dismally failed the simplest intelligence test imaginable:
http://tinyurl.com/7zm43
He has fifty questions he can't answer or daren't answer honestly:
http://tinyurl.com/ad89u
and fifty more:
http://tinyurl.com/9ky7y
In short, he's a waste of a human being.
Budikka
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
31 Oct 2005 03:31:56 PM |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:40:48 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On 30 Oct 2005 13:23:50 -0800, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote:
RS wrote:
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself, forbids.
That let's out all of the population then, since according to
mythology, we have all sinned.
You just present your typical ignorance, bud the dud. Sin is not "accepted" but
to be confessed and absolved.
How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond me.
I think the point Buddikka666 was making is that you are not supposed
to sin (intentionally) in the first place. If you do then you are
'accepting' sin even if only temprary until you can get to a priest
and unburdon yourself. The problem here of course is that if you have
sinned against another you cannot unburden yourself of that sin until
the person sinned against absolves you. Thus far you have not asked us
to forgive all the sins you have committed against us so you carry a
large burden of sin. This includes bearing false witness as you often
do against us.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
01 Nov 2005 06:42:08 AM |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:31:56 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 05:40:48 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond me.
I think the point Buddikka666 was making is that you are not supposed
to sin (intentionally) in the first place. If you do then you are
'accepting' sin even if only temprary until you can get to a priest
and unburdon yourself. The problem here of course is that if you have
sinned against another you cannot unburden yourself of that sin until
the person sinned against absolves you. Thus far you have not asked us
to forgive all the sins you have committed against us so you carry a
large burden of sin. This includes bearing false witness as you often
do against us.
Any theist who makes a remark like Duke's is being dishonest, stupid
and nasty all at the same time:
- they lie when they call their beliefs the truth when they are merely
what the religion believes to be true.
- it is a false dichotomy that excludes what it really is (See above)
- they insult people by telling them that whatever they might believe
about anything is false because it's not their "truth"
- they insult people when they tell them they're against truth, not
interested in truth etc.
- the false dichotomy forces others to call it a lie because it is not
the truth (they won't let us call it what it actually is)
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
01 Nov 2005 05:32:38 AM |
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:31:56 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
How a person so ignorant of the truth can be against truth is beyond me.
I think the point Buddikka666 was making is that you are not supposed
to sin (intentionally) in the first place. If you do then you are
'accepting' sin even if only temprary until you can get to a priest
and unburdon yourself.
Of course we aren't "supposed" to sin, but it is a natural flaw of mankind. We
are called to understand then accept that we did wrong and to take steps to
overcome this problem. That's 99% of the unburden as God will forgive us of the
wrong in our acknowledging the wrong.
After that comes absolution.
The problem here of course is that if you have
sinned against another you cannot unburden yourself of that sin until
the person sinned against absolves you.
You're limiting yourself to a single act against a single person. That person
can forgive you, but that person can't absolve you, ie, remove that sin from
you.
Thus far you have not asked us
to forgive all the sins you have committed against us so you carry a
large burden of sin.
What sin?
This includes bearing false witness as you often
do against us.
Nothing false about it.
But it does sound like you have taken a major step forward in your understanding
of sin at it's basic level.
Bud the dud stares truth in the eyes and says "no". To use a cliche', like a
deer staring at the headlights. A total blank.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 01:57:22 PM |
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RS wrote:
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests,
married priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the
people.
Enkidu, the Church can't accept any sin activity that God, himself,
forbids. The Church doesn't expect celibacy or forbid marriage. A
priest can marry at any time, but must abandon his position to do so.
Homosexuality (or homosexual acts) are sexually unchast (as is
fornication). If the Church "accepted" all of these things, then the
clergy would be of the world, which it shouldn't be. The clergy
isn't meant to represent the people, but stands to serve the
sacraments to the people. 1% of the priesthood has been found guilty
of pedophilia (why does everyone assume that involves homosexual
acts, since many of them involved man-to-woman interactions?)
Still, God lays down the sacraments for us. They aren't for us to
change.
Bull.
"It wasn't until 1139, with the Second Lateran Council, that mandatory
celibacy was officially imposed on all priests. Any marriage entered into by
a priest was regarded as invalid and anyone currently married had to
separate from their spouses - leaving them to whatever fate God had in store
for them, even if it meant leaving them destitute. Of course this was an
immoral thing to do to those spouses, and many clergy realized that there
was little religious or traditional basis for it, so they defied that order
and continued in their marriages. "
http://atheism.about.com/od/romancatholicism/a/celibacy_2.htm
but the real reason is probably because the church wants to own property.
"A further and very important factor in the push to require celibacy for
clergy was the problematic relationship the Roman Catholic Church had with
real estate and inherited land. Priests and bishops were not just religious
leaders: they also had political power over the people. When they controlled
land, which was at the time the basis for any political power, that land
could either go to the church or to the man's heirs when he died. "
http://atheism.about.com/od/romancatholicism/a/celibacy_2.htm
"It's a curious thing: the Catholic Church is quite clear that priests have
to be celibate, but it has also been made clear that celibacy is not
necessary. In the 1967 encyclical Sacerdotalis Caelibatus, written to
reinforce the "Sacredness of Celibacy" in the face of growing calls to
rethink the traditional requirement, Pope Paul VI explained that while
celibacy is a "dazzling jewel," it is not:
"...required by the nature of the priesthood itself. This is clear from
the practice of the early church itself and the traditions of the Eastern
churches."
Let's be absolutely clear about that: there is nothing, absolutely nothing
whatsoever, about the nature of the priesthood which makes celibacy
necessary or essential. As the encyclical admits, no other conclusion is
possible considering both the past history and the present circumstances of
Christianity. "
Prior to 1929 Greek Catholics could ordain married men.
"1929 Pope Pius XI issued the bull ***** Data Fuerit, which regulated Greek
Catholics in the United States. The bull forbade Greek Catholics from
ordaining married men to the priesthood and immigrant married priests from
serving parishes in the United States. "
The church also allows some priests *today* to be married and not be
celebate.
"Second, individual members of the Episcopal Church could enter into the
Catholic Church on their own initiative. As in accord with the "Decree on
Ecumenism" of the Second Vatican Council, this action could be seen as a
"reconciliation of those individuals who wish for full Catholic communion."
Finally, concerning married Episcopalian clergy becoming Catholic priests,
"the Holy See has specified that this exception to the rule of celibacy is
granted in favor of these individual persons, and should not be understood
as implying any change in the Church's conviction of the value of priestly
celibacy, which will remain the rule for future candidates for the
priesthood from this group."
In other words, an ordained Episcopalian minister would make a profession of
Faith and be received into the Catholic Church, and thereupon receive the
Sacrament of Confirmation. He would then take appropriate courses which
would enable him to minister as a Catholic priest."
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MARPRIE.htm
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| User: "havoc" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
07 Nov 2005 07:34:57 AM |
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Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
Blasphemers! Catholicism has it's errors and you compound them with
your own. Do you fear God?!! The church is not supposed to represent
People. It is supposed to represent God!!! Rome does neither. It
represents sinful pride and has thusly taken to hiding sin in its midst
rather than dealing with the cancer it has taken into itself in manifold
false doctrines. Homosexuality is SIN. That is the lesson they have to
learn; but, prophetically will not. Come out of her!!
God is going to judge this world and the harlot. And don't imagine he's
going to take any polls before doing so.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
07 Nov 2005 11:25:19 AM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:34:57 GMT, havoc <havoc@insightbb.com> wrote:
Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
Blasphemers! Catholicism has it's errors and you compound them with
your own. Do you fear God?!! The church is not supposed to represent
People. It is supposed to represent God!!! Rome does neither. It
represents sinful pride and has thusly taken to hiding sin in its midst
rather than dealing with the cancer it has taken into itself in manifold
false doctrines. Homosexuality is SIN. That is the lesson they have to
learn; but, prophetically will not. Come out of her!!
Ladies and gentleman, may I present the above abject stupidity as an
excellant reason to flush superstition?
God is going to judge this world and the harlot. And don't imagine he's
going to take any polls before doing so.
Laughing *at* the rabid cretin.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "Alan Ferris" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
07 Nov 2005 12:26:11 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:34:57 GMT, havoc <havoc@insightbb.com> wrote:
God is going to judge this world and the harlot. And don't imagine he's
going to take any polls before doing so.
Who are you to tell god what to do or what not to do? If god wants to
take a poll he can do as he damn well pleases.
--
Alan "Ferrit" Ferris
()'.'.'()
( (T) )
( ) . ( )
(")_(")
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| User: "Bonnie Bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
07 Nov 2005 07:59:11 AM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:34:57 GMT, the faaaaabulous supreme deity
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, Ruler of the heavens and host of fab parties,
opened the heavens and shone his light upon the wisdom of havoc
<havoc@insightbb.com>
Enkidu the Atheist wrote:
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
Blasphemers! Catholicism has it's errors and you compound them with
your own. Do you fear God?!! The church is not supposed to represent
People. It is supposed to represent God!!! Rome does neither. It
represents sinful pride and has thusly taken to hiding sin in its midst
rather than dealing with the cancer it has taken into itself in manifold
false doctrines. Homosexuality is SIN.
So is bearing false witness, which you just did.
Repent now, hell-bound sinner.
That is the lesson they have to
learn; but, prophetically will not. Come out of her!!
God is going to judge this world and the harlot. And don't imagine he's
going to take any polls before doing so.
Your sky pixie hates liars like you, too.
And honey -- judgmental little pricks like yourself fare even worse.
And wouldn't you know it -- people who claim to speak for your sky
pixie (like you just did) --- oy vey! Better start packing your
asbestos undies now.
Happy Sojourn in Hell --
Bonnie *****
"To wit, a miracle-making founder and pious, inspired apostles who
faithfully and infallibly recorded his words and deeds shortly after
his advent, and then went about promulgating the faith with great
gusto and success in "saving souls." Contrary to this popular delusion,
the reality is that, in addition to the enormous amount of bloodshed
which accompanies its foundation, Christianity's history is rife with
forgery and fraud. So rampant is this treachery and chicanery that any
serious researcher must immediately begin to wonder about the story
itself." -- Acharya S, from The Christ Conspiracy:The Greatest Story Ever Sold
.
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| User: "Hall Monitor" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
07 Nov 2005 06:18:26 PM |
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havoc <havoc@insightbb.com> wrote:
Blasphemers! Catholicism has it's errors and you compound them with
your own. Do you fear God?!! The church is not supposed to represent
People. It is supposed to represent God!!! Rome does neither.
+ Where do you get your information?
+ Do you make this crap up as you go along?
It
represents sinful pride and has thusly taken to hiding sin in its midst
rather than dealing with the cancer it has taken into itself in manifold
false doctrines. Homosexuality is SIN. That is the lesson they have to
learn; but, prophetically will not. Come out of her!!
God is going to judge this world and the harlot. And don't imagine he's
going to take any polls before doing so.
+ Then stand back, satan.
+ God doesn't need you to help Him.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
08 Nov 2005 09:43:27 AM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 19:18:26 -0500, Hall Monitor
<life-is-good@let's-live.com> wrote:
havoc <havoc@insightbb.com> wrote:
Blasphemers! Catholicism has it's errors and you compound them with
your own. Do you fear God?!! The church is not supposed to represent
People. It is supposed to represent God!!! Rome does neither.
+ Where do you get your information?
Pulls it out of his *****.
+ Do you make this crap up as you go along?
Christians have that tendency, yes.
It
represents sinful pride and has thusly taken to hiding sin in its midst
rather than dealing with the cancer it has taken into itself in manifold
false doctrines. Homosexuality is SIN. That is the lesson they have to
learn; but, prophetically will not. Come out of her!!
God is going to judge this world and the harlot. And don't imagine he's
going to take any polls before doing so.
+ Then stand back, satan.
+ God doesn't need you to help Him.
Fictional characters don't.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
03 Nov 2005 10:57:59 AM |
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On 30 Oct 2005 14:11:35 GMT, Enkidu the Atheist <enkidu@leaddogs.org>
wrote:
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in
news:1130680341.538391.289510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example. No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Exactly. If the Catholic church didn't expect celibacy and forbid
marraige, and did accept homosexuality as part of the normal range of
human variation, then they would not be suffering under this cloud
they've created. They'd have gay priests, heterosexual priests, married
priests, unmarried priests, a priesthood that represents the people.
Christianity *must* keep their perversions at the maximum.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 11:23:15 AM |
|
|
On 30 Oct 2005 05:52:21 -0800, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net>
wrote:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example.
Nero died in 54 CE whilst Rome was still exanding. In 98 CE Trajan
built the forum and carried out other public works. The immense baths
of Caracella were finished in 217. Indeed the decline of Rome only
really got under way when it became Christian. Constantinople was
built in 330 some 276 years after Nero died, and five years after the
council of Nicea. In 379 Theodosis divided the massive empire into
east and west. The first babarian invasion began in 400 some 346
years after Nero died and the Papacy was probably established
already in Rome.
Thus it is more likely to be Christianity that led to Rome's decline
not the decadence of Nero 300 plus years earlier.
Britain was not finally abandoned by Rome until 409 CE. Although
Britain was first invaded before Nero took power, it was not fully
conquered until after his death. (The furthest north they got took
place in the 80's when Agricola penetrated into what is now
Scotland. So a rule over Brittannia for some 354 years after Nero
died is hardly grounds for arguing Rome was in decline by
Nero's time.
No precedent exists to my knowledge, though, for the
priesthood to become the homosexual vanguard.
"American Catholic priests are five or 10 times as likely to be
homosexual as ordinary American men. In 1990, an American Franciscan
priest mailed a survey to 500 priests selected at random. Forty-five
percent of 398 respondents identified themselves as homosexual.
"Studies suggest that perhaps 30-50 percent of priests (especially
those under 50) are homosexual in orientation, compared with about 5
percent in the population at large," writes Professor Donald Cozzens of
John Carroll University."
It seems to me that the problem with Catholicism is that it's focused
on the wrong problem. It isn't gays, it's pedophile priests, and
that's what needs to be addressed. Any misbegotten attmepts to
conflate the two are doomed to disaster.
Budikka
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 03:59:09 PM |
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Les Hellawell wrote:
On 30 Oct 2005 05:52:21 -0800, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net>
wrote:
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against gays in the Catholic
church, but wouldn't that strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
The Asia Times (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/EH22Aa01.html)
reports: "In 1506, the Venetian prostitutes' guild lodged a complaint
with the Signoria that homosexuality had become so prevalent as to
threaten its livelihood. Civilizations in decline typically take on the
characteristics of Bonobo monkeys, Nero's Rome being the most lurid
example.
Nero died in 54 CE whilst Rome was still exanding. In 98 CE Trajan
built the forum and carried out other public works. The immense baths
of Caracella were finished in 217. Indeed the decline of Rome only
really got under way when it became Christian. Constantinople was
built in 330 some 276 years after Nero died, and five years after the
council of Nicea. In 379 Theodosis divided the massive empire into
east and west. The first babarian invasion began in 400 some 346
years after Nero died and the Papacy was probably established
already in Rome.
Thus it is more likely to be Christianity that led to Rome's decline
not the decadence of Nero 300 plus years earlier.
Britain was not finally abandoned by Rome until 409 CE. Although
Britain was first invaded before Nero took power, it was not fully
conquered until after his death. (The furthest north they got took
place in the 80's when Agricola penetrated into what is now
Scotland. So a rule over Brittannia for some 354 years after Nero
died is hardly grounds for arguing Rome was in decline by
Nero's time.
I don't think they're arguing that Rome was in decline, Les, but that
society itself was in decline. You can't argue that it wasn't under
Nero, who set himself up as god, organised extravagant and brutal
games, took over the public treasury and squandered it, and married
some five times (kicking one of his wives to death while she was
pregnant). Most famously, he delighted at the burning of two-thirds of
the city of Rome, which he then blamed on the Christians and burned
them - an event during which the Christian god was notably absent.
This proves that the god Nero was more powerful than the god Yahweh!
Brittania was quelled not by Nero but by Suetonius's defeat of
Boudicca, bringing her rampage to a bloody end.
Budikka
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| User: "JCarew" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 05:51:37 PM |
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JMJ
"Budikka666" wrote in message
snip<
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against
gays in the Catholic church, but wouldn't that
strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
According to Pedophiles and Priests (Anatomy of a
Contemporary Crisis, see note 1) by Philip Jenkins
(Oxford University Press, New York, 1996) 214 pp.
1. How widespread is pedophilia among priests? Commentators have
suggested between 5 and 10 percent. That figure has been presented by
various "experts" and widely used by the media. However, true
pedophilia--sexual contact between an adult and pre-pubescent child--is
extremely rare in the priesthood. The best estimate is "0.3 percent of
the whole body of clergy." (p 82) The most extensive study which
considered 2,252 priests over a thirty year period found only one case
of pedophilia. It involved a priest-uncle with two six-year-old nieces.
The number of pederasts or ephebophiles (priests involved, usually
homosexually, with an adolescent minor) was much larger, but still less
than two percent. Jenkins traces how those figures were blown up and
presented without nuance in the media.
unquote
Note 1: A non-Catholic publication btw
Jim Carew sfo
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
03 Nov 2005 04:24:01 AM |
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JCarew wrote:
JMJ
"Budikka666" wrote in message
snip<
Recently there has been talk of a pogrom against
gays in the Catholic church, but wouldn't that
strip the religion of 50% of its priesthood?
(http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
According to Pedophiles and Priests (Anatomy of a
Contemporary Crisis, see note 1) by Philip Jenkins
(Oxford University Press, New York, 1996) 214 pp.
1. How widespread is pedophilia among priests?
How is this relevant in any way, shape, or form, to the issue of gays
in the priesthood? Do you seriously think that homosexuality =
pedophilia?
Commentators have
suggested between 5 and 10 percent. That figure has been presented by
various "experts" and widely used by the media. However, true
pedophilia--sexual contact between an adult and pre-pubescent child--is
extremely rare in the priesthood. The best estimate is "0.3 percent of
the whole body of clergy." (p 82) The most extensive study which
considered 2,252 priests over a thirty year period found only one case
of pedophilia. It involved a priest-uncle with two six-year-old nieces.
The number of pederasts or ephebophiles (priests involved, usually
homosexually, with an adolescent minor) was much larger, but still less
than two percent. Jenkins traces how those figures were blown up and
presented without nuance in the media.
So that makes it all okay? The point is that these people are not
"ordinary" citizens, they're supposed to be men of this god they
invented. They're supposed to be above average. Jesus purportedly
said, "Suffer little children to come unto me", not "Little children,
come unto me and suffer".
If these people are no better than average, then what is the point of
the priesthood in the first place? If this god supposedly loved us so
much that he raped a woman and killed her child in his futile and
disastrous attempt to "save" us, yet allows these things to go on in
his church, then where is the motivation to follow this god anywhere?
What this demonstrates quite convincingly is that there is no god. Or
that he doesn't give a dman about children, and the Bible confirms it.
Budikka
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| User: "Bonnie Bitch" |
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| Title: Re: Is Catholic Church Afraid to Come out? |
30 Oct 2005 05:57:03 PM |
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JCarew wrote:
The number of pederasts or ephebophiles (priests involved, usually
homosexually,
"Perhaps the greatest misconception that perpetuates this myth is the
confusion around the term sexual orientation. Orientation refers to
feelings, self-concept, and social identity. Persons may or may not
express their orientation through behaviors." - Robert L. Smith, Ph.D.,
President, Kentucky Psychological
Association, "Misinformation on Gays", The Courier Journal, March 27,
1995.
"Sexual abuse of male children by adult men is often referred to as
'homosexual molestation,' which implies that the perpetrator is himself
gay or has a homosexual orientation. Usually, however, the
adjectives 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' really refer to the victim's
gender in relation to that of the perpetrator, not to the perpetrator's
sexual orientation." - Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., Department of
Psychology at UC Davis
"The belief that homosexuals are particularly attracted to children is
completely unsupported by our data... In our twelve years of work with
child molesters, we have found... the child offender who is also
attracted to and engaged in an adult sexual relationship is
heterosexual. The adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to
the underage child than does the homosexual male." - A.N. Groth and
H.J. Birnbaum, "Adult Sexual Orientation and Attraction to Underage
Persons", Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1978, 7:175-181.
For the truth about the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal:
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/
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