| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"~Glorious Appearing~" |
| Date: |
17 Aug 2005 03:08:11 AM |
| Object: |
Is creation by God rational? |
Is creation by God rational?
A last desperate tactic by sceptics to avoid a theistic conclusion is to
assert that creation in time is incoherent. Davies correctly points out that
since time itself began with the beginning of the universe, it is
meaningless to talk about what happened 'before' the universe began. But he
claims that causes must precede their effects. So if nothing happened
'before' the universe began, then (according to Davies) it is meaningless to
discuss the cause of the universe's beginning.
But the philosopher (and New Testament scholar) William Lane Craig, in a
useful critique of Davies,10 pointed out that Davies is deficient in
philosophical knowledge. Philosophers have long discussed the notion of
simultaneous causation. Immanuel Kant (1724-1804) gave the example of a
weight resting on a cushion simultaneously causing a depression in it. Craig
says:
The first moment of time is the moment of God's creative act and of
creation's simultaneous coming to be.
Some skeptics claim that all this analysis is tentative, because that is the
nature of science. So this can't be used to prove creation by God. Of
course, sceptics can't have it both ways: saying that the Bible is wrong
because science has proved it so, but if science appears consistent with the
Bible, then well, science is tentative anyway.
A final thought
The Bible informs us that time is a dimension that God created, into which
man was subjected. It even tells us that one day time will no longer exist.
That will be called "eternity." God Himself dwells outside of the dimension
He created (2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 1:2). He dwells in eternity and is not
subject to time. God spoke history before it came into being. He can move
through time as a man flips through a history book.
Because we live in the dimension of time, it is impossible for us to fully
understand anything that does not have a beginning and an end. Simply accept
that fact, and believe the concept of God's eternal nature the same way you
believe the concept of space having no beginning and end -- by faith -- even
though such thoughts put a strain on our distinctly insufficient cerebrum.
--
Most of my quotes are from:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm http://www.carm.org/cults.htm
http://www.carm.org/apologetics.htm http://www.carm.org/seekers.htm
http://www.carm.org/atheism.htm http://www.carm.org/boards.htm
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/ http://www.christianquotes.org/
http://bible.gospelcom.net/ Let no one be found among you
who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination
or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who
is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Deut 18:10
http://www.christiananswers.net/
.
|
|
| User: "VO" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 01:36:02 PM |
|
|
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
That's up to God to say.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 01:58:23 PM |
|
|
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in news:4303838c$0$6360
$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
That's up to God to say.
So, what does your imaginary god say?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "VO" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 02:32:53 PM |
|
|
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96B598F546EAFwodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in news:4303838c$0$6360
$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
That's up to God to say.
So, what does your imaginary god say?
Ask the person who addressed Him.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
The religion called Atheism is a socio-political system for controlling
people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing. Another name for
it is Secular Humanism or Socialism.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 02:38:09 PM |
|
|
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in
news:430390de$0$24802$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96B598F546EAFwodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"VO" <here@overthere.net> wrote in news:4303838c$0$6360
$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com:
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
That's up to God to say.
So, what does your imaginary god say?
Ask the person who addressed Him.
I guess it depends on whose god you're referring to.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's
thoughts, lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions,
perpetrated through generations of subtle yet pervasive
brainwashing."
The religion called Atheism is a socio-political system for
controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions,
perpetrated through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing.
Another name for
it is Secular Humanism or Socialism.
Not only is this bad imitation, it's so wrong as to be laughable.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 02:30:35 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:36:02 -0700, "VO"
<here@overthere.net> spake thusly:
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
That's up to God to say.
He did say.
--
Pastor Dave
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/solution.html
http://tinyurl.com/ce97m
"The mark of a society that's on its last leg, is when
there is no fear of God." - Adrian Rogers
"Species that were once thought to have turned into
others have been found to overlap in time with these
alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does
not convincingly document a single transition from one
species to another." (Stanley, S.M., The New
Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin
of Species, 1981, p. 95)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "kathryn" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 06:58:01 AM |
|
|
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
not even vaguely - it's a ***** poor job if it was.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 08:06:29 AM |
|
|
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
No, moron!
You would have to prove that "god" exists - and no one has done that yet!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kenneth Lantrip" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 12:12:46 PM |
|
|
ZenIsWhen wrote:
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
No, moron!
You would have to prove that "god" exists - and no one has done that yet!
Can you prove you exist?
As far as I know, you are just one of the cogs in this simulator I am in.
Point is: Many things can't be prooved. Belief is there so that we may
fill in the hidden pieces of our lives so we can move on to *more in
important issues*.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 11:02:48 PM |
|
|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Kenneth Lantrip
(bothersome@cmaaccess.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
ZenIsWhen wrote:
"~Glorious Appearing~" <inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddur9b$mdr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
Is creation by God rational?
No, moron!
You would have to prove that "god" exists - and no one has done that
yet!
Can you prove you exist?
As far as I know, you are just one of the cogs in this simulator I am
in.
Point is: Many things can't be prooved. Belief is there so that we
may fill in the hidden pieces of our lives so we can move on to *more
in important issues*.
Unfortunately, down through the ages, the hidden places in our lives have
been filled with lies, guesses and misinformation. Then when guys like
Galileo come along, they get the shaft for supporting the truth.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
http://home.comcast.net/~vickman/
______________
'03 XVS650A
'04 XVS1100
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Elroy Willis" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
17 Aug 2005 05:40:28 AM |
|
|
"~Glorious Appearing~" wrote in alt.atheism
A last desperate tactic by sceptics to avoid a theistic conclusion is to
assert that creation in time is incoherent. Davies correctly points out that
since time itself began with the beginning of the universe, it is
meaningless to talk about what happened 'before' the universe began.
Heaven forbid that your imaginary space pixie actually "planned" the
universe, since planning requires time, and so does the act of
creation.
You need to give up your stupid attempt to prove your god exists and
start dealing with the problems like the one above.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "God" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 01:00:26 AM |
|
|
Cometh the hour, cometh "~Glorious Appearing~"
<inverclyde_uk@hotmail.com>
who, with imperceptibly subtle footwork in alt.atheism, gave us this:
it is
meaningless to talk about what happened 'before' the universe began.
Correctemundo!
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
Either religion goes or civilisation does. It's that simple.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 02:07:40 AM |
|
|
"God" <TheLord@heaven.gov> wrote:
Is creation by God rational?
Dear God
Are you rational?
I think so.
It's the fundamentalists that are irrational.
Amen (and Awomen!)
--
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kobra" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 02:13:18 AM |
|
|
"Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2035> wrote in message
news:430433bb$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"God" <TheLord@heaven.gov> wrote:
Is creation by God rational?
As far as I'm concerned, if believing in quantum mechanics, subatomic
particles, and relativity is rational, so is creation by God!
Kobra
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 02:22:16 AM |
|
|
"Kobra" wrote:
"God" <TheLord@heaven.gov> wrote:
Is creation by God rational?
As far as I'm concerned, if believing in quantum mechanics, subatomic
particles, and relativity is rational, so is creation by God!
I was praying to God ... but since you answered .....
As a Christian (and teacher) I have no problem with the concept that God
created ... I do have a very big objection to fundamentalist Creationist
wankers who insist that this creation was a few thousand yerars ago (4004
BCE) in 6 days ... and want to teach such utter shite in public schools as
science!
Creationism is not science!
Visit http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/
"Creationism is not the alternative to Evolution - ignorance is."
Visit The Creationist Flow Chart
http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/creationist_flow_chart.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donkeys Can Talk, People Can Fly, And A Man Named Jesus Lives Up In The Sky!
(Creation Science For Teens) -by Pastor Deacon Fred
List Price: $14.95
Our Price: $57.99
You Save: Nothing. (Only Jesus Saves!)
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours (if Jesus wants it to) from
Landover Baptist Church in Freehold, Iowa:
Summary: Donkeys Can Talk and People Can Fly - Creation Science for Teens is
a Bible based textbook designed to reclaim America's children from the
corrupting influence of today's culture. Religious leaders around the
country believe it will replace most high school science textbooks in the
next four years. The book opens up with an unforgettable Bible truth in the
form of a poem: "Donkeys Can Talk, People Can Fly and There's a God-Man
Named Jesus Who Lives In The Sky - Science and Math are all made up lies, by
a giant old demon with a tail and red eyes." These words describe in
beautiful simplicity the glorious True Christian principles upon which the
United States of America was founded.
Donkeys Can Talk and People Can Fly is a wonderfully animated approach to
the Bible. Secular children will be introduced to timeless True Christian
beliefs that come directly out of the Scriptures and not from the
hallucinations of some boat-riding, bird-watching, monkey-loving,
lizard-humping, 19th-century liberal! Teens will enjoy hearing stories about
angels, "the flying people with wings," and demons, "naked red-skinned
creatures with razor sharp teeth and horns sticking out of their sweaty
heads." What a great book to have in secular schools! Kids will finally
learn the truth about Creation- "how a giant old man with a long beard just
snapped his fingers and everything just poofed into existence." Parents will
be overjoyed to find that their children will no longer be exposed to the
fantasies and supposed truths that public schools have been teaching them
for the last 30 years. They will learn that some bodies do not decay after
death, but remain intact and never rot so that when God finally decides to
invade Earth, they will all come back to life and become "flying people" who
zoom up to the clouds to join Jesus' army of angels on jet-propelled
horses!"
From http://www.landoverbaptist.org/christianreader.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Create Your Own Bible Creatures: An Interactive Creation Science Kit
A horse with a lion-head and a snake-butt may seem far-fetched to people who
are not familiar with the Holy Bible, but scripture teaches us that such
creatures exist...
From http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0802/biblecreatures.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Creation Scientists To Search for Talking Snake Bones in Africa
At what point in history did snakes lose their vocal cords and legs?
Creation Scientists turn to the Bible and the continent of Africa for an
answer.
Freehold, Iowa - Most True ChristiansT acknowledge that the key to solving
the greatest mystery of Creation Science may lay buried deep within the
heart of African jungle. Creation Scientists agree that snakes lost their
vocal cords along with their legs between 8,000 and 7,800 BC. Today, modern
Christians, like those at the newly founded, Creation Studies Institute, are
spending almost a million dollars, and investing countless hours to gather
the evidence needed to prove, without a doubt, to the secular scientific
community, that the planet Earth was once populated with walking, talking
snakes. "Christians have The Talking Snake Theory, and Atheists have
Evolution," says Creation Scientist, Dr. Jonathan Edwards. "Only one can be
correct. Sadly, until us Creation Scientists can prove that snakes once had
vocal cords, I expect that them silly old hell-bound evil-lutionists won't
take us seriously."
Dr. Edwards is leading the first of many Creation Science expeditions to
Africa. "We pick Africa because we know that Eve was in a giant garden the
last time she saw a talking snake with legs," says Dr. Edwards. "The Genesis
account of Creation describes something very similar to the pictures of
Africa that I've seen in the National Geographic Magazines I have stuffed
between my mattresses, so I'm fairly certain that Africa is where these
fantastic creatures once resided. In addition, Eve's testimony and
conversation with the last known talking snake is transcribed word for word
in the book of Genesis. I'm sure it breaks the Lord's heart that unsaved
secular scientists have stooped so low as to question her eyewitness
account."
One Mystery at a Time:
"Where Did Negroes Come From?" Can Wait
Last Tuesday, to show how focused the Creation expedition team to Africa is
on solving one mystery at a time, the Creation Science Research Center
declined funding from a wealthy but misguided Independent Baptist, who
wanted to hitch a ride with the crew to conduct unnecessary research on the
origin of Negroes. "We're not concerned here with the mystery of how Negroes
came to populate a continent that was originally dominated by proper white
folks," says Dr. Jonathan Edwards. "That's no mystery at all, actually. The
Bible makes it perfectly clear in Genesis 9:18-29 that there were no
coloreds around until after the time of Noah. God turned Noah's son, Ham,
into the first Negro as a punishment for staring at his drunk daddy's
tallywhacker. Creation Science evidence also shows that God gave Ham and all
of his male Negro descendants enormous tallywhackers of their own, to
prevent them being curious about white folks. In any case, the first Negro
most likely set foot in Ethiopia several months after the flood. Understand,
Ham had to walk all the way to Africa from Mount Ararat, in Turkey and that
is a great distance." Dr. Edwards also added, "African American Christians
still celebrate the journey of Noah's son by symbolically reuniting through
bodily consumption, Ham and Turkey, each year at their Thanksgiving tables."
"With Dr. Edwards spearheading the search for the talking snake, Landover
Baptist Church members can be assured that their tithe will be going to this
great effort alone," Pastor Deacon Fred recently told reporters at a press
conference in Des Moines. "Unicorns, flying demons, 900-year-old people,
talking donkeys, and Ezekiel's turbo charged chariot will all have to wait,"
he said. "We're going to prove one Bible story at a time here, and in order
of historical occurrence. I think unsaved folks will be awfully surprised to
find out that the more carefully we examine the data the more convinced you
will be that God just snapped his fingers and poofed everything into
existence."
From http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0604/snake.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is Christian Science?
I think all of us True Christians are sick and tired of the religion of
Science. It's completely flawed and has the most absurd "logic" system.
.....
It's sick enough the Atheists us this silly nonsense. The ***** rabbit is
simulating the sexual homosexual action of "Giving Head" as the Liberals
would call it.
We have to use the word "Science" in "Christian Science" just to appease the
Liberals, but in Truth, True Christians know that the religion of Science is
silly and inferior to True Christian Faith.
The Atheists don't ever realize that the word "Universe" tells them what
they should be knowing.
Uni-verse.
Uni = 1
Verse = Bible Verse
And what's that One Bible Verse? It's Genesis 1:1. Stupid Atheists will
never learn that all the information that we need to know is in the Bible
when it comes to anything relating to the five senses.
How Christian Science Works
Here is how Christian Science works:
Should God Fracture Transvestites?
State the problem.
Get a King James 1611 Bible.
Find answer.
Throw Bible at an Atheist's Head
Now if you can't find an answer to a question in the Bible then whatever
that question is, is fallacy. For instance, you won't find anything about
DNA or Evolution in the Bible since they are all Liberal Lies.
From http://www.truechristian.com/whatschristianscience.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kobra" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 02:35:32 AM |
|
|
"Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2037> wrote in message
news:43043729@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"Kobra" wrote:
"God" <TheLord@heaven.gov> wrote:
Is creation by God rational?
As far as I'm concerned, if believing in quantum mechanics, subatomic
particles, and relativity is rational, so is creation by God!
I was praying to God ... but since you answered .....
As a Christian (and teacher) I have no problem with the concept that God
created ... I do have a very big objection to fundamentalist Creationist
wankers who insist that this creation was a few thousand yerars ago (4004
BCE) in 6 days ... and want to teach such utter shite in public schools as
science!
Creationism is not science!
While I tend to favor the "old earth" model myself, I have found an
interesting array of "new earth" theories that have at least gained my
interest for the time being. Unless you've already done your research, as a
Christian you shouldn't dismiss the Word of your faith so casually, as the
foundation of everything you believe may rest upon the dependability (and
even literacy) of the Genesis account. I mean, if six days doesn't mean six
days, then why would "died for our sins" mean "died for our sins"? Where is
the divinely inspired appendix and footnotes telling us mere mortals what is
metphor and what is literal? Of course, it certainly is hard to account for
all that oil and coal we've been mining/pumping based on a mere 6000 years
of dead animals and plants...or is it?
Just something to ponder...
Kobra
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 04:44:16 AM |
|
|
"Kobra" wrote:
As a Christian (and teacher) I have no problem with the concept that God
created ... I do have a very big objection to fundamentalist Creationist
wankers who insist that this creation was a few thousand yerars ago (4004
BCE) in 6 days ... and want to teach such utter shite in public schools
as science!
Creationism is not science!
While I tend to favor the "old earth" model myself, I have found an
interesting array of "new earth" theories that have at least gained my
interest for the time being.
They are as "interesting" to me as satanic messages being found by playing
rock records backwards ... and just as truthful! Utter shite!
Unless you've already done your research, as a Christian you shouldn't
dismiss the Word of your faith so casually, as the foundation of
everything you believe may rest upon the dependability (and even literacy)
of the Genesis account.
Crap! The first two chapters of Genesis are myth. Genesis 2 was written
before Genesis 1. They contradict each other and make absurd claims
regarding the order of creation. The first historical person mentioned in
the bible is Abraham ... all those before cannot be proven to have lived in
time and space.
I mean, if six days doesn't mean six days, then why would "died for our
sins" mean "died for our sins"?
Where does the historical Jesus of Nazareth ever say that he will die for
our sins?????? Don't quote John's gospel which has no words from the
historical Jesus of Nazareth. Don't quote Paul who never met the historical
Jesus of Nazareth as a person in time / space history. Try finding a quote
by Jesus that says he is going to die for our sins from the earliest gospel
.... that of Mark ... but don't use the additional material which was never
stated by the historical Jesus of Nazareth, the very human Messiah (God's
anointed one)
Where is the divinely inspired appendix and footnotes telling us mere
mortals what is metphor and what is literal?
God expects you to use your God-given mind.
Fundamentalist creationists expect you to abandon your God-given mind to
them!
Of course, it certainly is hard to account for all that oil and coal we've
been mining/pumping based on a mere 6000 years of dead animals and
plants...or is it?
Ask Andrew Snelling who wrote in his PhD about coal deposits being millions
of years old but denies it in his creationist ratbaggery. Maybe he should
give back his PhD?
Creationism only works for fundamentalists. Other Christians have no
problems with evolution and an old age for the earth. For example - Roman
Catholics do not support creationism.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kobra" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 06:21:05 PM |
|
|
"Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2037> wrote in message
news:43045871@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"Kobra" wrote:
Unless you've already done your research, as a Christian you shouldn't
dismiss the Word of your faith so casually, as the foundation of
everything you believe may rest upon the dependability (and even
literacy) of the Genesis account.
Crap! The first two chapters of Genesis are myth. Genesis 2 was written
before Genesis 1. They contradict each other and make absurd claims
regarding the order of creation. The first historical person mentioned in
the bible is Abraham ... all those before cannot be proven to have lived
in time and space.
So, may I ask, what is the foundation for your belief in Christ at all as
the "anointed one"? Do you even bother with Scripture? Only certain parts?
Why those parts?
Where does the historical Jesus of Nazareth ever say that he will die for
our sins?????? Don't quote John's gospel which has no words from the
historical Jesus of Nazareth. Don't quote Paul who never met the
historical Jesus of Nazareth as a person in time / space history. Try
finding a quote by Jesus that says he is going to die for our sins from
the earliest gospel ... that of Mark ... but don't use the additional
material which was never stated by the historical Jesus of Nazareth, the
very human Messiah (God's anointed one)
Never met the Big Man, all I have is what most Christians consider the
inspired, total and complete Word of God...
Where is the divinely inspired appendix and footnotes telling us mere
mortals what is metphor and what is literal?
God expects you to use your God-given mind.
Yes, I see the result of it in the thousands of Christian flavors...As each
God-given mind takes and uses whatever is convenient, comfortable, etc...
Since you seem to be directing me to selective pieces of what, in my
ignorance, I thought represented the complete and total Word of God, there
MUST be some hidden source of info that you are privy to! Do tell!
Fundamentalist creationists expect you to abandon your God-given mind to
them!
No argument there...
Creationism only works for fundamentalists. Other Christians have no
problems with evolution and an old age for the earth. For example - Roman
Catholics do not support creationism.
Yup. What peeked my interest in your post was the "Genesis account is myth"
part. I mean, how does one tell what is literal and what is metaphor?
Kobra
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 09:17:41 PM |
|
|
"Kobra" wrote:
So, may I ask, what is the foundation for your belief in Christ at all as
the "anointed one"?
The scriptures ... which are all Old Testament ... and the New Testament.
Do you even bother with Scripture? Only certain parts? Why those parts?
...
inspired, total and complete Word of God...
There was no single Bible "book" containing Old and New Testaments until
about 400 CE.
Links regarding the bible .....
1001 Errors in the Christian Bible
http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/
A Primer for Second Semester Divinity School Students
http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/primer.html
Biblical Inconsistencies
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.shtml
Early Christian Writings
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
Five Gospels Parallels
http://www.utoronto.ca/religion/synopsis/
From Jesus To Christ
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
Fundamentalists Annonymous
http://www.fundamentalists-anonymous.org/
Internet Sacred Texts Archive
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
Jesus Seminar
http://westarinstitute.org/Jesus_Seminar/jesus_seminar.html
Jewish Texts & Torah
http://www.nmmc.net/Guide/jtt.html
Jewish Encyclopedia
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp
Reference - Theologians of the second half of the 20th century
http://www.newgenevacenter.org/reference/20b-theology2.htm
Scientific Boo-boos in the Bible
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1991/1/1boobo91.html
Skeptics Annotated Bible
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
What the Christian fundamentalist doesn't want you to know
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BIBLE TIMELINE
3000 BC
- Egyptian songs written that were the source of many of the Psalms
2000 BC
- Eclessiastes written
1900 BC
- Abraham comes to Palestine
- Beginning of oral tradition later recorded in the bible
1375 - 1358 BC
- Reign of Egyptian Pharoah Amenhotep IV ( later called Ikhnaton)
inspiration of much of Moses' writing.
1250 BC
- Moses leads Isrealites out of Egypt
1030 - 1010 BC
- Reign of Saul
1010 - 970 BC
- Reign of David
1000 BC
- Bible begins to be written with Job (fiction)
970 - 931 BC
- Reign of Solomon
960 BC
- The YAHWIST editor began in Jerusalem. He calls God YHWH.and describes God
in humanlike terms. The Yahwist editor wrote Genesis 2 ( Genesis 1 had not
yer been written.). Bible heroes are not whitewashed - Abraham is called a
liar (Gen 20), Noah's drunken state is described (Gen 9) and Lot's incest is
told (Gen 19). The monarchy and priesthood in Jeruslem are important. This
editor wrote the first version of the 10 Commandments in Exodus 34 which
contains no reference to resting on the Sabbath.
850 BC
- The ELOHIST editor began in Samaria. He calls God Elohim. The
Elohist editor has a democratic value system and so asserts that no priest,
leader or king can claim permanent status over God's people. There is no
dynasty established. He starts his story with Abraham and wrote about Isaac
and Jacob. He places importance on the Northern kingdoms power and shrines.
He uses dreams, miracle and magic as a way to demonstrate God's power. He
asserts that God raises up prophets whn required.
621 BC
- The DEUTERONOMIST editor began in 621 BCE in the reign of King Josiah in
Jerusalem. The "discovered" book was called the second (deuters) giving of
the Law (nomas) and became known as Deuteronomy. It was responsive to the
prophetic tradition of Hosea, Amos, Isaiah, Micah and Jeremiah (who was
alivce at the time of writing). The deuteronomist editor centralised worship
under the supervision of the Jerusalem priesthood. Its interest's were in a
high spiritual monotheism and therefdore wrote than no image could be made
of God.
596 BC
- The PRIESTLY editors began after the city of Jerusalem fell to
Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians. Many of the Psalms were
written in this time (including Psalm 137). The priests edited and rewrote
massive parts of the sacred story. They emphasised circumcision, dietary
laws and Sabbath day observance and were responsible for writing Genesis 1
to provide a reason for observing the Sabbath abnd it was one of the last
parts of the Old Testament to be written. At the same time synagogues were
built to indoctrinate the people. As a result thje etails of worship, the
rules of worship, the observance of worship became important and resulted in
much of Exodus, almost all of Leviticus and major portions of Numbers. All
the chronologies were written by the priestly editors. The incompleted
harmonisation of the Yahwist and Elohist editors produce most of the
contradictions in the Old Testament.
400 BC
- Emphasis on individualism and life after death
200 BC
- Daniel written (fiction)
6 BCE
- Jesus birth
27 - 34 CE
- Jesus' death
50 - 60 CE
- 1 Thessalonians. Philippians, Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians,
Romans, Philemon
50 - 80 CE
- Colossians
50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews
65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
70 - 100 CE
- James
80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Matthew's gospel (written in Antioch),
80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter
80 CE - 130 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea)
90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John
90 -120 CE.
- John's Gospel, I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude
100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus
100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter
Creationism only works for fundamentalists. Other Christians have no
problems with evolution and an old age for the earth. For example -
Roman Catholics do not support creationism.
Yup. What peeked my interest in your post was the "Genesis account is
myth" part. I mean, how does one tell what is literal and what is
metaphor?
Linguistic style.
Genesis
Chapter 1
.... written after Genesis 2
596 BC
- The PRIESTLY editors began after the city of Jerusalem fell to
Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians. Many of the Psalms were
written in this time (including Psalm 137). The priests edited and rewrote
massive parts of the sacred story. They emphasised circumcision, dietary
laws and Sabbath day observance and were responsible for writing Genesis 1
to provide a reason for observing the Sabbath abnd it was one of the last
parts of the Old Testament to be written. At the same time synagogues were
built to indoctrinate the people. As a result thje etails of worship, the
rules of worship, the observance of worship became important and resulted in
much of Exodus, almost all of Leviticus and major portions of Numbers. All
the chronologies were written by the priestly editors. The incompleted
harmonisation of the Yahwist and Elohist editors produce most of the
contradictions in the Old Testament.
1
1 In the beginning
....like "Once upon a time ...."
, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss,
while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
..... how can there be earth and water without any stars (or sun) or sky
???????
4
God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the
darkness.
5
3 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." Thus
evening came, and morning followed--the first day.
6
Then God said, "Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters, to
separate one body of water from the other." And so it happened:
7
God made the dome, and it separated the water above the dome from the
water below it.
8
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the
second day.
.... How can earth, water and sun exist without a sky????????
.... How can sky exist without any stars???????
9
Then God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered into a single
basin, so that the dry land may appear." And so it happened: the water under
the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared.
10
God called the dry land "the earth," and the basin of the water he called
"the sea." God saw how good it was.
11
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth vegetation: every kind of plant
that bears seed and every kind of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with
its seed in it." And so it happened:
12
the earth brought forth every kind of plant that bears seed and every kind
of fruit tree on earth that bears fruit with its seed in it. God saw how
good it was.
13
Evening came, and morning followed--the third day.
14
Then God said: "Let there be lights in the dome of the sky, to separate
day from night. Let them mark the fixed times, the days and the years,
15
and serve as luminaries in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the
earth." And so it happened:
16
God made the two great lights, the greater one to govern the day, and the
lesser one to govern the night; and he made the stars.
17
God set them in the dome of the sky, to shed light upon the earth,
18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the
darkness. God saw how good it was.
.... Howe can "light" have existed before God created the sun and moon and
stars??????
19
Evening came, and morning followed--the fourth day.
20
Then God said, "Let the water teem with an abundance of living creatures,
and on the earth let birds fly beneath the dome of the sky." And so it
happened:
21
God created the great sea monsters and all kinds of swimming creatures
with which the water teems, and all kinds of winged birds. God saw how good
it was,
22
and God blessed them, saying, "Be fertile, multiply, and fill the water of
the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth."
23
Evening came, and morning followed--the fifth day.
24
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures:
cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of
creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
.... Were birds really created before land animals??????
26
4 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the
cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on
the ground."
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and
female he created them.
.... This second version has God creating amn and woman together.
28
God blessed them, saying: "Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and
subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and
all the living things that move on the earth."
29
God also said: "See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the
earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food;
30
and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the
living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for
food." And so it happened.
31
God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening
came, and morning followed--the sixth day.
Genesis
Chapter 2
.... written before Genesis 1
960 BC
- The YAHWIST editor began in Jerusalem. He calls God YHWH.and describes God
in humanlike terms. The Yahwist editor wrote Genesis 2 ( Genesis 1 had not
yer been written.). Bible heroes are not whitewashed - Abraham is called a
liar (Gen 20), Noah's drunken state is described (Gen 9) and Lot's incest is
told (Gen 19). The monarchy and priesthood in Jeruslem are important. This
editor wrote the first version of the 10 Commandments in Exodus 34 which
contains no reference to resting on the Sabbath.
1
1 Such is the story of the heavens and the earth at their creation. At the
time when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--
..... Like "Once upon a time ... "
5
while as yet there was no field shrub on earth and no grass of the field
had sprouted, for the LORD God had sent no rain upon the earth and there was
no man to till the soil,
6
but a stream was welling up out of the earth and was watering all the
surface of the ground--
7
2 the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his
nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.
8
3 Then the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and he placed
there the man whom he had formed.
9
Out of the ground the LORD God made various trees grow that were
delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle
of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
10
4 A river rises in Eden to water the garden; beyond there it divides and
becomes four branches.
11
The name of the first is the Pishon; it is the one that winds through the
whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12
The gold of that land is excellent; bdellium and lapis lazuli are also
there.
13
The name of the second river is the Gihon; it is the one that winds all
through the land of Cush.
14
The name of the third river is the Tigris; it is the one that flows east
of Asshur. The fourth river is the Euphrates.
15
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to
cultivate and care for it.
16
The LORD God gave man this order: "You are free to eat from any of the
trees of the garden
17
except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not
eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
.... Where is this tree now??????
18
The LORD God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a
suitable partner for him."
.... Man and woman were created together in Genesisi 1
19
So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various
birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call
them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name.
.... God fashions animals like one would fashion a clay model. Why can't god
just speak and have it done as in Genesis 1?
20
The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all
the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.
.... Was God so stuipid as toi think man was gpoing to mate with animals?????
21
So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he
took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.
22
The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the
man. When he brought her to the man
.... Why can God not speak and create woman as he does in Genesis 1?
.... God is carving Eve from a rib like one would carve an idol from an
animal's bone.
,
23
5 the man said: "This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my
flesh; This one shall be called 'woman,' for out of 'her man' this one has
been taken."
24
6 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife,
and the two of them become one body.
25
The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.
From http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis2.htm
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kobra" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 10:22:15 PM |
|
|
"Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2040> wrote in message
news:4305414d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"Kobra" wrote:
So, may I ask, what is the foundation for your belief in Christ at all as
the "anointed one"?
The scriptures ... which are all Old Testament ... and the New Testament.
Do you even bother with Scripture? Only certain parts? Why those parts?
...
inspired, total and complete Word of God...
There was no single Bible "book" containing Old and New Testaments until
about 400 CE.
[snip interesting links]
So pardon my ignorance still, what "denomination" do you conform to (if
any)? I am intrigued with your "flavor" of Christianity as I've not yet
spoken with someone that matched your set of beliefs. Is there a particular
"name" or classification, or did you come to all of this on your own? I am
genuinely curious.
Yup. What peeked my interest in your post was the "Genesis account is
myth" part. I mean, how does one tell what is literal and what is
metaphor?
Linguistic style.
How did you come to this determination? Is it scripturally supported? Is
it buried in that list of links you included? I do plan on checking them
all out, but if you can give me a succinct answer, then so much the better.
[snip]
....like "Once upon a time ...."
, when God created the heavens and the earth,
2
2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss,
while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
3
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
.... how can there be earth and water without any stars (or sun) or sky
???????
Well, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why couldn't there be, at least
for a "moment"? aka God magic
[snip]
8
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the
second day.
... How can earth, water and sun exist without a sky????????
... How can sky exist without any stars???????
Does this necessarily dismiss the entire account as myth or just demonstrate
the literary style of the time?
[snip]
to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the
darkness. God saw how good it was.
... Howe can "light" have existed before God created the sun and moon and
stars??????
See above God magic.
[snip]
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures:
cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it
happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds of
creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
... Were birds really created before land animals??????
Why not? Is it because of evolutionary evidence?
26
4 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let
them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the
cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on
the ground."
27
God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male
and female he created them.
... This second version has God creating amn and woman together.
As above, literary style of writing of the times?
[snip]
except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall
not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
... Where is this tree now??????
Died and rotted afte the Fall? Taken up by God? Stowed aboard Noah's ark?
18
The LORD God said: "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a
suitable partner for him."
... Man and woman were created together in Genesisi 1
Literary writing style of repeating with more detail twice?
19
So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various
birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call
them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name.
... God fashions animals like one would fashion a clay model. Why can't
god just speak and have it done as in Genesis 1?
20
The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all
the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man.
... Was God so stuipid as toi think man was gpoing to mate with
animals?????
Yeah I always found that funny...
[snip]
From http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis2.htm
So where do you stand on creation? On the flood? On Exodus? The
crusifixion? Which of these are myth and which are literal?
Kobra
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 10:57:58 PM |
|
|
"Kobra" wrote:
So pardon my ignorance still, what "denomination" do you conform to (if
any)? I am intrigued with your "flavor" of Christianity as I've not yet
spoken with someone that matched your set of beliefs. Is there a
particular "name" or classification, or did you come to all of this on
your own? I am genuinely curious.
I am (roughly) a liberal Christian. What John Shelby Spong calls an Exiled
Believer.
My Testimony at http://www.christian-life.us/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm
Linguistic style.
How did you come to this determination?
Study at uni.
Is it scripturally supported?
Does it matter? All truth is God's truth.
Scripture (OT & NT) supports slavery but most people think slavery is wrong.
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
.... how can there be earth and water without any stars (or sun) or sky
???????
Well, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why couldn't there be, at least
for a "moment"? aka God magic
I don't believe in "God magic"
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the
second day.
... How can earth, water and sun exist without a sky????????
... How can sky exist without any stars???????
Does this necessarily dismiss the entire account as myth or just
demonstrate the literary style of the time?
Myth IS a literary style. Myth also contains truth albeit not literal
truth.
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures:
cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And so it
happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds
of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
... Were birds really created before land animals??????
Why not? Is it because of evolutionary evidence?
No ... because og truth found in scientific evidence.
Creationism is neither science nor truthful.
except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall
not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
... Where is this tree now??????
Died and rotted afte the Fall? Taken up by God? Stowed aboard Noah's
ark?
Never existed?????
So where do you stand on creation? On the flood? On Exodus? The
crusifixion? Which of these are myth and which are literal?
Creation - God (YHWH) created everything and sustains everthing. God is the
Ground of all being without which nothing can exist or survive. (Christian
existentialism - Paul Tillich)
The Flood - a local flood. There was no worldwide flood wiping out
everything except a few people on an ark. A myth. No evidence that Noah
existed.
Exodus - an historical event in time space history although coloured by the
Jews. Probably not as large as believed by most Christians.
Crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth - an historical time / space political act
ordered by Roman officials worried about claims that Jesus was King of the
Jews / Messiah. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected into God.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kobra" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
19 Aug 2005 12:23:02 AM |
|
|
"Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2041> wrote in message
news:430558ca@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"Kobra" wrote:
I am (roughly) a liberal Christian. What John Shelby Spong calls an Exiled
Believer.
My Testimony at http://www.christian-life.us/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm
Wow...quite a wild ride you had there, huh? I guess I shouldn't give up
searching just yet (I'm currently a very open-minded agnostic)...
Linguistic style.
How did you come to this determination?
Study at uni.
Is it scripturally supported?
Does it matter? All truth is God's truth.
Yeah, but what is truth and what is hogwash? In your "critique" of genesis
you pointed at many places where things defied our expectation of what is
logical or possible, even ignoring the "God magic" factor, yet you have no
trouble accepting Christ as rising from the dead? Not sure how the
rationale pans out on this one...
Scripture (OT & NT) supports slavery but most people think slavery is
wrong.
Also supports loving thy neighbor, not coveting neighbor's stuff, etc.. So,
do you throw the baby out with the bath water or just keep what feels right
to you? How do you know that that is truth? Is it an intellectual or
spiritual decision-making process?
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
.... how can there be earth and water without any stars (or sun) or sky
???????
Well, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why couldn't there be, at
least for a "moment"? aka God magic
I don't believe in "God magic"
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
So, do you believe in an omnipotent God or not?
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning followed--the
second day.
... How can earth, water and sun exist without a sky????????
... How can sky exist without any stars???????
Does this necessarily dismiss the entire account as myth or just
demonstrate the literary style of the time?
Myth IS a literary style. Myth also contains truth albeit not literal
truth.
So what metaphorical truth does the genesis myth supposedly contain?
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living
creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds." And
so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all kinds
of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
... Were birds really created before land animals??????
Why not? Is it because of evolutionary evidence?
No ... because og truth found in scientific evidence.
Which evidence?
Creationism is neither science nor truthful.
Certainly not science, anyway...
Creation - God (YHWH) created everything and sustains everthing. God is
the Ground of all being without which nothing can exist or survive.
(Christian existentialism - Paul Tillich)
So does God judge us? How does salvation work in your belief structure?
Faith or works? Combination of the two? Is Christ part of the plan? Do
people even go to hell? Is there a Satan? A war in heaven?
The Flood - a local flood. There was no worldwide flood wiping out
everything except a few people on an ark. A myth. No evidence that Noah
existed.
Yeah I was hoping that expedition to Arrarat would pan out last year, in the
off chance they actually did find something...but it never happened...
Exodus - an historical event in time space history although coloured by
the Jews. Probably not as large as believed by most Christians.
Colored as in the plagues? Parting of Red Sea? Burning bush?
Crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth - an historical time / space political
act ordered by Roman officials worried about claims that Jesus was King of
the Jews / Messiah. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected into God.
So you've said there is no support for Him dying for our sins...as most
Christians believe...so, did He perform miracles? Born of virgin Mary?
Sorry for the slew of questions, but I am intrigued...
Kobra
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
19 Aug 2005 02:15:09 AM |
|
|
"Kobra" wrote:
My Testimony at
http://www.christian-life.us/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm
Wow...quite a wild ride you had there, huh? I guess I shouldn't give up
searching just yet (I'm currently a very open-minded agnostic)...
Keep searching for truth. Truth matters. You may find it in places you
least expected. Visit Roman Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches as
well as talking to Jews and Moslems. - those who believe in the One God
(YHWH). This was also the advice that C S Lewis gave to an agnostic looking
at whther Christianity was true or not. The Anglican Protestant C S Lewis
was converted via his Roman Catholic friend J R R Tolkien (of Lord of the
Rings fame).
Is it scripturally supported?
Does it matter? All truth is God's truth.
Yeah, but what is truth and what is hogwash? In your "critique" of
genesis you pointed at many places where things defied our expectation of
what is logical or possible, even ignoring the "God magic" factor, yet you
have no trouble accepting Christ as rising from the dead? Not sure how
the rationale pans out on this one...
I believe in resurrection of Jesus into God but I do not believe that the
corpse of Jesus came back from the dead (resuscitation). For me the
resurrection / ascension / pentecost are all the same act.
Scripture (OT & NT) supports slavery but most people think slavery is
wrong.
Also supports loving thy neighbor, not coveting neighbor's stuff, etc..
So, do you throw the baby out with the bath water or just keep what feels
right to you? How do you know that that is truth? Is it an intellectual
or spiritual decision-making process?
Truth is always correct. If you find error in it - it isn't truth. This is
primarily an intellectual pursuit and decision. No-one can know absolute
truth but one can find substantial truth that corresponds to what is. Look
at everything. Listen to Bob Dylan's "Trust Yourself" ... Dylan is a
Christian.
I don't believe in "God magic"
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
So, do you believe in an omnipotent God or not?
I believe God is omnipotent but uses natural means. God makes all things
possible.
Myth IS a literary style. Myth also contains truth albeit not literal
truth.
So what metaphorical truth does the genesis myth supposedly contain?
God as creator. Man's search for perfection / return to Paradise and the
ultimate failure of human ability to be perfect. Man's connection with God.
How God created is a scientific pursuit not found in the bible.
... Were birds really created before land animals??????
Why not? Is it because of evolutionary evidence?
No ... because of truth found in scientific evidence.
Which evidence?
Biology. Land animals appeared before flyting creatures.
Creation - God (YHWH) created everything and sustains everthing. God is
the Ground of all being without which nothing can exist or survive.
(Christian existentialism - Paul Tillich)
So does God judge us? How does salvation work in your belief structure?
Faith or works? Combination of the two? Is Christ part of the plan? Do
people even go to hell? Is there a Satan? A war in heaven?
God redeems us through his grace. It is neither a belief in a dogma or
creed nor a matter of what we ultimately do. Grace is the key. Listen to
U2's "Grace" ... Bono, Larry and the Edge are Christians. Grace is an act
of God's love - free without conditions - a gift. In that respect St Paul
is correct. Salvation is a free gift given by God that we cannot earn
either by correct belief or by doing the right thing.
I believe that the historical Jesus of Nazareth is God's Messiah / Christ -
the anointed one of God who brought the Gospel / Good News that God saves
through His grace even though we do not merit salvation.
Exodus - an historical event in time space history although coloured by
the Jews. Probably not as large as believed by most Christians.
Colored as in the plagues? Parting of Red Sea? Burning bush?
Yep ... that included with numbers of people involved and a positive bent
placed on Jewish historical events with a ciorresponding negative bent
placed on Egyptian events. If you were an Egyptian would God seem to be
loving to Egyptians?
Crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth - an historical time / space political
act ordered by Roman officials worried about claims that Jesus was King
of the Jews / Messiah. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected into
God.
So you've said there is no support for Him dying for our sins...
I don't believe God requires the death of anything in order to forgive our
sins. It is part of God's nature to forgive - this is God's love and grace
in action.
did He perform miracles? Born of virgin Mary?
There is much eveidence that supports the fact that Jesus healed people.
Many rabbis of his day preached and healed. The miracles appear to be myth
written by the gospel writers to indicate a connection with the Old
Testament and to demonstrate that Jesus was greated than Moses, Elijah or
any other prophet and was the anointed one (Messiah / Chriost) who would
deliver Israel from oppression ... however not as a military leader.
Jesus was conceived and born in the usual way. St Paul doesn't mention
anything different about Jesus' conception or birth ... and Paul wrote
before any gospel was written. Likewise the first gospel written by Mark
mentions no special conception or birth story.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark T" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
19 Aug 2005 02:22:24 AM |
|
|
"TRUST YOURSELF" - Bob Dylan
Trust yourself,
Trust yourself to do the things that only you know best.
Trust yourself,
Trust yourself to do whats right and not be second-guessed.
Dont trust me to show you beauty
When beauty may only turn to rust.
If you need somebody you can trust, trust yourself.
Trust yourself,
Trust yourself to know the way that will prove true in the end.
Trust yourself,
Trust yourself to find the path where there is no if and when.
Dont trust me to show you the truth
When the truth may only be ashes and dust.
If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.
Well, youre on your own, you always were.
In a land of wolves and thieves.
Dont put your hope in ungodly man
Or be a slave to what somebody else believes.
Trust yourself
And you wont be disappointed when vain people let you down.
Trust yourself
And look not for answers where no answers can be found.
Dont trust me to show you love
When my love may only be lust.
If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"GRACE" - U2
Grace, she takes the blame
She covers the shame
Removes the stain
It could be her name
Grace...
It's a name for a girl
It's also a thought that, changed the world
And when she walks on the street
You can hear the strings
Grace finds goodness in everything
Grace, she's got the walk
Not on a ramp or on chalk
She's got the time to talk
She travels outside of karma, karma
She travels outside... of karma
When she goes to work, you can hear the strings
Grace finds beauty in everything
Grace...
She carries a world on her hips
No champagne flute for her lips
No twirls or skips between her fingertips
She carries a pearl in perfect condition
What once was hurt
What once was friction
What left a mark
No longer stings...
Because Grace makes beauty
Out of ugly things
Grace finds beauty in everything
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mich" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
02 Oct 2005 08:39:53 AM |
|
|
Hi; I hope that you won't mind if I enter this thread; I find it
interesting. Kobra seems to be very much opened minded, and I tend to agree
in many ways with Mark, although do have my own personal different points of
view.
"Kobra" <mugsy12345@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W0eNe.86247$B52.24000@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
"Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2041> wrote in message
news:430558ca@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"Kobra" wrote:
I am (roughly) a liberal Christian. What John Shelby Spong calls an
Exiled
Believer.
My Testimony at
http://www.christian-life.us/testimonials/mark_tindall.htm
Wow...quite a wild ride you had there, huh? I guess I shouldn't give up
searching just yet (I'm currently a very open-minded agnostic)...
Linguistic style.
How did you come to this determination?
Study at uni.
Is it scripturally supported?
Does it matter? All truth is God's truth.
Yeah, but what is truth and what is hogwash? In your "critique" of
genesis
you pointed at many places where things defied our expectation of what is
logical or possible, even ignoring the "God magic" factor, yet you have no
trouble accepting Christ as rising from the dead? Not sure how the
rationale pans out on this one...
Very good point; I personally believe all scriptures to be God's revelation
although I do believe that many things within scriptures, we do not as of
yet understand.
Scripture (OT & NT) supports slavery but most people think slavery is
wrong.
Slavery, biblically speaking, is simply to allow a person of a different
nationality to work and live within a country, or tribe, as was the case of
the Isrealites.As a Canadian, I could be allowed to work within the
United States, but, I would not receive all the rights of an American, since
I'm not one of its citizen.I would therefore be an American slave as I would
have some obligations to meet which are not imposed on an American citizen.
Through the abuse of slavery, forced labor and the low lifestyle imposed
on the African Americans were, in my opinions, not the characteristics like
that of a slave, but such received the status similar to that of a prisoner
of war.
Also supports loving thy neighbor, not coveting neighbor's stuff, etc..
So,
do you throw the baby out with the bath water or just keep what feels
right
to you? How do you know that that is truth? Is it an intellectual or
spiritual decision-making process?
We don't have all the truth since we as humans are imperfect. Eventhough the
bible might be without error, our interpretation of it most certainly can be
erronious.
Then God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
.... how can there be earth and water without any stars (or sun) or
sky
???????
My personal interpretation of this lies in my understanding of the early
earth, while receiving the light from the sun, mostly in the unltraviolet
range,the sun itself (visual spectrum) was being blocked from the gases,
mostly water vapor; and so, the bible speaks of "darkness" existing on the
face of the deep. Therefore, I find it impressive for the scriptures to
speak of the waters above and the water below at the early stage of the
earth's life. The expanse of the sky existed when the water from above and
below separated, through the process of condensation. Through such a
formation, I personally don't find it hard in believing that an atmosphere
of gases might have formed and
retained a great part of the waters in the upper atmosphere, for a long
while, until, at the time of the flood, such a canopy was destroyed (by the
sun?) and a great amount of rain poured upon the earth. I don't believe that
any scientific theory exists concerning this, but I "personally" don't find
it hard to believe in it's possibility of existance nevertheless.
Well, if you believe in an omnipotent God, why couldn't there be, at
least for a "moment"? aka God magic
I don't believe in "God magic"
But I personally believe in magical perceptions. For example, Jesus raised
people from the dead. This might not be against any natural laws, but
follows clearly against the natural laws that we do presently know , making
this a "magical" event....within our perspective.
"All things are probable. Try to believe." - Mark 17:1 (MTV)
I agree.
So, do you believe in an omnipotent God or not?
God called the dome "the sky." Evening came, and morning
followed--the
second day.
... How can earth, water and sun exist without a sky????????
... How can sky exist without any stars???????
"God made an expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the
water above it."
Therefore, the sky, in between the waters, did not contain stars and the sun
as of yet due to the water vapors. However, later, I would have to
personally accept a belief non scientific
in essence, in that the waters might have somehow remained in the heavens
while becoming at the same time transparent, letting the sun and the stars
to appear in the firmament.How such waters could have become transparent?
Was the type of atmosphere then different as to allow a great deal of water
vapor to become transparent? This would simply translate as the grain/volume
of water in the air to be much greater within a percentage of humidity than
it is capable now.I therefore, don't see a problem in believing that such a
different atmosphere existed.
Does this necessarily dismiss the entire account as myth or just
demonstrate the literary style of the time?
Myth IS a literary style. Myth also contains truth albeit not literal
truth.
So what metaphorical truth does the genesis myth supposedly contain?
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living
creatures: cattle, creeping things, and wild animals of all kinds."
And
so it happened:
25
God made all kinds of wild animals, all kinds of cattle, and all
kinds
of creeping things of the earth. God saw how good it was.
... Were birds really created before land animals??????
First, I do find it interesting that the bible starts with water being the
cradle of life.
As for the birds existing before the rest of the mammals, I understand that
science would disagree, I don't know very much concerning the evolutionary
process itself as is believed by the theory of evolution. Evolution is
certainly not a precise science and there are many difficulties existing
within the theory itself.From what I understand, if feathers have evolved
from scales, it seems that there could have been some birds who evolved
directly from the fishes, as opposed to the dinosaures.Maybe such finds will
be made in the futur.
Why not? Is it because of evolutionary evidence?
No ... because og truth found in scientific evidence.
Which evidence?
Creationism is neither science nor truthful.
Certainly not science, anyway...
Creation - God (YHWH) created everything and sustains everthing. God is
the Ground of all being without which nothing can exist or survive.
(Christian existentialism - Paul Tillich)
So does God judge us? How does salvation work in your belief structure?
Faith or works? Combination of the two? Is Christ part of the plan? Do
people even go to hell? Is there a Satan? A war in heaven?
I understand those questions are directed to Mark, so I will let him
respond.
The Flood - a local flood. There was no worldwide flood wiping out
everything except a few people on an ark. A myth. No evidence that Noah
existed.
Here, again, I let the bible be truthful, and in agreeing with Mark, I
believe the flood wasn't worldwide, but was of such a magnetude that all of
humanity has a story of the event in question. Within such stories, coming
from different parts of the world, someone is indeed being saved by God.
Therefore, I believe it to be true. My personal opinion as to where the
great flood was located would be in Egypt, the Sahara Desert specifically..
Yeah I was hoping that expedition to Arrarat would pan out last year, in
the
off chance they actually did find something...but it never happened...
I personally would look at a mountain (possibly considered Holy by some)in
Egypt
Exodus - an historical event in time space history although coloured by
the Jews. Probably not as large as believed by most Christians.
Colored as in the plagues? Parting of Red Sea? Burning bush?
Crucifixion of Jesus of Nazareth - an historical time / space political
act ordered by Roman officials worried about claims that Jesus was King
of
the Jews / Messiah. Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected into
God.
So you've said there is no support for Him dying for our sins...as most
Christians believe...so, did He perform miracles? Born of virgin Mary?
I personally have no problems with any of such teachings.
Sorry for the slew of questions, but I am intrigued...
Kobra
Andre
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Barry OGrady" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 07:47:10 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:44:16 +1000, "Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2037> wrote:
"Kobra" wrote:
As a Christian (and teacher) I have no problem with the concept that God
created ... I do have a very big objection to fundamentalist Creationist
wankers who insist that this creation was a few thousand yerars ago (4004
BCE) in 6 days ... and want to teach such utter shite in public schools
as science!
Creationism is not science!
While I tend to favor the "old earth" model myself, I have found an
interesting array of "new earth" theories that have at least gained my
interest for the time being.
They are as "interesting" to me as satanic messages being found by playing
rock records backwards ... and just as truthful! Utter shite!
You are utter shite.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 09:02:56 AM |
|
|
Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com> wrote in
news:rp09g1dl0if7jcgu296353c2l547hq8f0f@4ax.com:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:44:16 +1000, "Mark T" <wwwwwh@tdoyoumean.2037>
wrote:
"Kobra" wrote:
As a Christian (and teacher) I have no problem with the concept
that God created ... I do have a very big objection to
fundamentalist Creationist wankers who insist that this creation
was a few thousand yerars ago (4004 BCE) in 6 days ... and want to
teach such utter shite in public schools as science!
Creationism is not science!
While I tend to favor the "old earth" model myself, I have found an
interesting array of "new earth" theories that have at least gained
my interest for the time being.
They are as "interesting" to me as satanic messages being found by
playing rock records backwards ... and just as truthful! Utter shite!
You are utter shite.
ROTFL. Xian fight! Xian fight!
(They can't even agree on their myths and they expect us to take them
seriously.)
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Dave" |
|
| Title: Re: Is creation by God rational? |
18 Aug 2005 05:55:06 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 07:35:32 GMT, "Kobra"
<mugsy12345@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
Creationism is not science!
While I tend to favor the "old earth" model myself, I have found an
interesting array of "new earth" theories that have at least gained my
interest for the time being. Unless you've already done your research, as a
Christian you shouldn't dismiss the Word of your faith so casually, as the
foundation of everything you believe may rest upon the dependability (and
even literacy) of the Genesis account. I mean, if six days doesn't mean six
days, then why would "died for our sins" mean "died for our sins"? Where is
the divinely inspired appendix and footnotes telling us mere mortals what is
metphor and what is literal?
The Genesis account is literal. That is why
the Bible gives a genealogy.
Of course, it certainly is hard to account for
all that oil and coal we've been mining/pumping
based on a mere 6 | | | | | | |
