| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"John Clancy McDonald kookwoman1\@kooksof theworld.net" |
| Date: |
20 Jan 2008 07:04:36 PM |
| Object: |
Is Evolution a Fact? |
“EVOLUTION is as much a fact as the heat of the sun,” asserts Professor
Richard Dawkins, a prominent evolutionary scientist. Of course,
experiments and direct observations prove that the sun is hot. But do
experiments and direct observations provide the teaching of evolution
with the same undisputed support?
Before we answer that question, something needs to be cleared up. Many
scientists have noted that over time, the descendants of living things
may change slightly. Charles Darwin called this process “descent with
subsequent modification.” Such changes have been observed directly,
recorded in experiments, and used ingeniously by plant and animal
breeders. These changes can be considered facts. However, scientists
attach to such slight changes the term “microevolution.” Even the name
implies what many scientists assert—that these minute changes furnish
the proof for an altogether different phenomenon, one that no one has
observed, which they call macroevolution.
You see, Darwin went far beyond such observable changes. He wrote in his
famous book The Origin of Species: “I view all beings not as special
creations, but as the lineal descendants of some few beings.” Darwin
said that over vast periods of time, these original “few beings,” or
so-called simple life-forms, slowly evolved—by means of “extremely
slight modifications”—into the millions of different forms of life on
earth. Evolutionists teach that these small changes accumulated and
produced the big changes needed to make fish into amphibians and apes
into men. These proposed big changes are referred to as macroevolution.
To many, this second claim sounds reasonable. They wonder, ‘If small
changes can occur within a species, why should not evolution produce big
changes over long periods of time?’
The teaching of macroevolution rests on three main assumptions:
1. Mutations provide the raw materials needed to create new species.
2. Natural selection leads to the production of new species.
3. The fossil record documents macroevolutionary changes in plants and
animals.
Is the evidence for macroevolution so strong that it should be
considered a fact?
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| User: "mariposas rand mair fheal" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 03:56:11 PM |
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In article <446mj.2680$Sa1.1153@news02.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
Scientific evidence.
prove scientific evidence is a valid criteria
How would you prove the validity of science without using science itself?
try following that to its logical conclusion
there are no proofs
there are no universally accepted truths
you might be completely wrong about what you believe is true
and thats not a bad thing
The best you can say is that, as a method of understanding the physical
universe, science works better than scholarly interpretation of Sacred
Writings.
theres a difference between teaching science because its a useful tool
and teaching it because it -the truth-
Well, can you supply anything better for elucidating truths about reality?
what is reality?
you could study a little history - physics instead of biology
i dont know what copernicus thought privately
but professionally he adopted the heliocentric model
merely as a computational device
it was easier to work with for his calendar reform than ptolemy
but he didnt present it as the new great truth
galileo decided he knew what the truth was
and he wasnt going to let some old church interfere with his truth
the sun was the center of the universe and he would tolerate no disagreement
nearly got himself tortured for his effort
and got himself imprisoned
and now some centuries later what have we learned?
galileo was wrong
there is no fixed center to the universe
any point is as good as any other point for the origin of a coordinate system
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 11:06:26 PM |
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On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <446mj.2680$Sa1.1153@news02.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
Scientific evidence.
prove scientific evidence is a valid criteria
How would you prove the validity of science without using science itself?
try following that to its logical conclusion
there are no proofs
there are no universally accepted truths
you might be completely wrong about what you believe is true
and thats not a bad thing
The best you can say is that, as a method of understanding the physical
universe, science works better than scholarly interpretation of Sacred
Writings.
theres a difference between teaching science because its a useful tool
and teaching it because it -the truth-
Well, can you supply anything better for elucidating truths about reality?
what is reality?
you could study a little history - physics instead of biology
i dont know what copernicus thought privately
but professionally he adopted the heliocentric model
merely as a computational device
it was easier to work with for his calendar reform than ptolemy
but he didnt present it as the new great truth
He knew the Pope would be pissed, so he kept it low key.
galileo decided he knew what the truth was
and he wasnt going to let some old church interfere with his truth
the sun was the center of the universe and he would tolerate no disagreement
nearly got himself tortured for his effort
and got himself imprisoned
Galileo was almost as arrogant and disagreeable as Newton. But that is
irrelevant. The church was wrong for assuming that the Earth had to be
the center of creation, and that any dissenting views were blasphemy.
and now some centuries later what have we learned?
galileo was wrong
there is no fixed center to the universe
any point is as good as any other point for the origin of a coordinate system
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
We know that the Sun and the Earth orbit each other, with the barycenter
being much closer to the Sun than it is to the Earth. As you point out,
the definition of what orbits what depends on the coordinate system used.
When you put the origin at the barycenter, the calculations become much
simpler.
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)
.
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| User: "Atlas Bugged" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 11:38:25 PM |
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"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 12:40:09 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 07:06:57 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
....***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
--
MarkA
(My OTHER sig line is clever)
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 04:45:37 PM |
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 09:39:44 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:15:37 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
You could also write "Romani eunt domi" on the wall a hundred times...
--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 10:31:18 PM |
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:39:44 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:15:37 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
You could also write "Romani eunt domi" on the wall a hundred times...
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domi'?
'People called Romanes they go the at home'?
Domi is an adverb, not a noun!
Are you trying to use it as a gerund, sonny?
And you are not following the script either Bwian,
therefore making my Latin translation difficult.
Have you seen what a producer can do to your testes, eh lad?
'E'll bleedin' crucify them!
Nasty, eh?
Now, try it again, and get it right this time.
Right: Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
26 Jan 2008 06:21:58 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:01:18 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:39:44 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:15:37 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
You could also write "Romani eunt domi" on the wall a hundred times...
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domi'?
'People called Romanes they go the at home'?
Domi is an adverb, not a noun!
Are you trying to use it as a gerund, sonny?
And you are not following the script either Bwian,
therefore making my Latin translation difficult.
Have you seen what a producer can do to your testes, eh lad?
'E'll bleedin' crucify them!
Nasty, eh?
Now, try it again, and get it right this time.
Right: Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
Having been forced to take 2 years of Latin in grade school, I was
laughing so hard at that scene I could scarcely breathe! One of my other
outrageously funny movie scene favorites was the "Le Poisson" song in
"The Little Mermaid."
--
MarkA
(This space accidentally filled in)
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
26 Jan 2008 07:40:54 PM |
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On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:21:58 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:01:18 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:39:44 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:15:37 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
You could also write "Romani eunt domi" on the wall a hundred times...
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domi'?
'People called Romanes they go the at home'?
Domi is an adverb, not a noun!
Are you trying to use it as a gerund, sonny?
And you are not following the script either Bwian,
therefore making my Latin translation difficult.
Have you seen what a producer can do to your testes, eh lad?
'E'll bleedin' crucify them!
Nasty, eh?
Now, try it again, and get it right this time.
Right: Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
Having been forced to take 2 years of Latin in grade school, I was
laughing so hard at that scene I could scarcely breathe! One of my other
outrageously funny movie scene favorites was the "Le Poisson" song in
"The Little Mermaid."
I don't remember that one.
My daughter used to have Sebastian singing "Under the Sea" on an
endless loop, or so it seemed to me!
.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
28 Jan 2008 08:37:37 AM |
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On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:10:54 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:21:58 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:01:18 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:39:44 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:15:37 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
You could also write "Romani eunt domi" on the wall a hundred times...
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domi'?
'People called Romanes they go the at home'?
Domi is an adverb, not a noun!
Are you trying to use it as a gerund, sonny?
And you are not following the script either Bwian,
therefore making my Latin translation difficult.
Have you seen what a producer can do to your testes, eh lad?
'E'll bleedin' crucify them!
Nasty, eh?
Now, try it again, and get it right this time.
Right: Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
Having been forced to take 2 years of Latin in grade school, I was
laughing so hard at that scene I could scarcely breathe! One of my other
outrageously funny movie scene favorites was the "Le Poisson" song in
"The Little Mermaid."
I don't remember that one.
My daughter used to have Sebastian singing "Under the Sea" on an
endless loop, or so it seemed to me!
The french chef at the Prince's castle is singing about how he LOVES fish,
then starts to show a certain sadistic enthusiasm for cutting off their
heads, pulling out their bones, etc. The whole time, Sebastian is trying
to avoid becoming part of the recipe. It was a brilliant piece of writing.
--
MarkA
(My OTHER sig line is clever)
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
28 Jan 2008 10:33:14 PM |
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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:37:37 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:10:54 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:21:58 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 15:01:18 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 22:39:44 -0500, MarkA <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:15:37 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 08:06:57 -0500, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:10:09 +1030, Michael Gray wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:38:25 -0500, "Atlas Bugged"
<atlasbuggedBYspam@gmail.com> wrote:
"MarkA" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.01.25.05.06.24.986334@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:56:11 -0800, mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
Bow wow wow ..... grrrrr .... snarl snarl .....
You understand! When in Rome....
What?
Now I'll never know...
...***** on the wall of the Colosseum! It's so cultural.
I guess it beats going to the Opera.
You could also write "Romani eunt domi" on the wall a hundred times...
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domi'?
'People called Romanes they go the at home'?
Domi is an adverb, not a noun!
Are you trying to use it as a gerund, sonny?
And you are not following the script either Bwian,
therefore making my Latin translation difficult.
Have you seen what a producer can do to your testes, eh lad?
'E'll bleedin' crucify them!
Nasty, eh?
Now, try it again, and get it right this time.
Right: Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
Having been forced to take 2 years of Latin in grade school, I was
laughing so hard at that scene I could scarcely breathe! One of my other
outrageously funny movie scene favorites was the "Le Poisson" song in
"The Little Mermaid."
I don't remember that one.
My daughter used to have Sebastian singing "Under the Sea" on an
endless loop, or so it seemed to me!
The french chef at the Prince's castle is singing about how he LOVES fish,
then starts to show a certain sadistic enthusiasm for cutting off their
heads, pulling out their bones, etc. The whole time, Sebastian is trying
to avoid becoming part of the recipe. It was a brilliant piece of writing.
Yeah, I think I can remember snippets of that, but perhaps I am just
imagining it.
Thatnks anyway, I'm sure that my daughter will fill me in when I next
see her!
.
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| User: "Dan Drake" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 03:05:18 PM |
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On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:56:11 UTC, mariposas rand mair fheal
<mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote:
you could study a little history - physics instead of biology
And indeed, you could as well.
But most people involved with science and its history tend to class the
shape of the Solar System as astronomy: grounded, of course, in physics,
as Newton showed, but without any real physics behind it before then.
i dont know what copernicus thought privately
but professionally he adopted the heliocentric model
merely as a computational device
it was easier to work with for his calendar reform than ptolemy
but he didnt present it as the new great truth
He may not have presented it as new great truth, but he did present it in
terms of fact. It was another guy (Osiander) who added the preface,
without Copernicus' consent, to explain that Copernicus was only kidding
around with abstract math and thereby keep him out of _possible_ trouble.
galileo decided he knew what the truth was
and he wasnt going to let some old church interfere with his truth
the sun was the center of the universe and he would tolerate no disagreement
Oh, really? Did he call people to come to him to be tried for heresy? Did
he threaten to bring them in chains and charge them for the chains? Did he
suppress other work that disagreed with his? Tell me about this.
And if you mean that he would not have tolerated disagreement it he had
had the power to do anything about it, you're still wrong. He carried on
discussions and debates with other scientifically [to use the modern word]
inclined people, and even refrained now and then from fisking a person who
had said something truly dumb.
nearly got himself tortured for his effort
and got himself imprisoned
Well, as the Catholic contingent will point out and perhaps has by now, he
was never actually formally in prison. It was house arrest -- which of
course is not quite so nice and friendly as Galileo's other critics -- the
ones who know the history better -- pretend it is.
and now some centuries later what have we learned?
galileo was wrong
there is no fixed center to the universe
Wrong again. In his master work on astronomy, the one that got him hauled
before the Inquisition, he stated explicitly that the idea of the center
of the universe was probably *meaningless*. You could look it up. If you
don't find it easily (hint: look under "Bruno" in the index. No, THAT
Index; the index to the English translation of the _Dialogue_), I can give
you the full cite. This was also his last word on the subject -- the
Inquisition made sure of that!
any point is as good as any other point for the origin of a coordinate system
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
Yeah. Right. And just to make sure you understand what you're talking
about, could you give us just a brief sketch of the tensor equations by
which the General Theory of Relativity accounts for the little problem
that with a fixed Earth at the center, the galaxies are orbiting us once
per 24 hours at a speed of zillions of times the speed of light? I'm sure
it all works out, but I'm a little unclear on the details, and maybe you
could help.
Really, it does work out, according to people who have done the work. But
it's not quite so elementary as you claim. In particular, it is impossible
to account for such effects in the nice simple Relativity theory of 1905.
Not everything is as relative as you think.
--
Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com
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| User: "mariposas rand mair fheal" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 03:10:44 PM |
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Really, it does work out, according to people who have done the work. But
it's not quite so elementary as you claim. In particular, it is impossible
to account for such effects in the nice simple Relativity theory of 1905.
Not everything is as relative as you think.
would you like some cheese with your whine?
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
25 Jan 2008 05:18:08 PM |
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On 25 Jan 2008 21:05:18 GMT, "Dan Drake" <dd@dandrake.com> wrote:
any point is as good as any other point for the origin of a coordinate system
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
Yeah. Right. And just to make sure you understand what you're talking
about, could you give us just a brief sketch of the tensor equations by
which the General Theory of Relativity accounts for the little problem
that with a fixed Earth at the center, the galaxies are orbiting us once
per 24 hours at a speed of zillions of times the speed of light? I'm sure
it all works out, but I'm a little unclear on the details, and maybe you
could help.
Mes compliments a la chef.
aa #2278 If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Through a jaundiced eye darkly--rheum with a view.
The Squeeky Wheel http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
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| User: "Elmer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 04:28:42 PM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <446mj.2680$Sa1.1153@news02.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
Scientific evidence.
prove scientific evidence is a valid criteria
How would you prove the validity of science without using science itself?
try following that to its logical conclusion
there are no proofs
there are no universally accepted truths
you might be completely wrong about what you believe is true
and thats not a bad thing
The best you can say is that, as a method of understanding the physical
universe, science works better than scholarly interpretation of Sacred
Writings.
theres a difference between teaching science because its a useful tool
and teaching it because it -the truth-
Well, can you supply anything better for elucidating truths about reality?
what is reality?
you could study a little history - physics instead of biology
I have.
i dont know what copernicus thought privately
but professionally he adopted the heliocentric model
merely as a computational device
it was easier to work with for his calendar reform than ptolemy
but he didnt present it as the new great truth
But it turned out to be so.
galileo decided he knew what the truth was
and he wasnt going to let some old church interfere with his truth
the sun was the center of the universe and he would tolerate no disagreement
nearly got himself tortured for his effort
and got himself imprisoned
and now some centuries later what have we learned?
galileo was wrong
there is no fixed center to the universe
any point is as good as any other point for the origin of a coordinate system
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
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| User: "mariposas rand mair fheal" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 05:04:46 PM |
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and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of relativity
or why its called -relativity-
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
wait a sec
okay
i didnt do that but i discussed it with one of the trees in the yard
and it wants to know why youre so violent
when all it does is block the summer sun and create oxygen
and pretty flowers and sweet fragrance
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
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| User: "gregvk" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 05:21:29 PM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:mair_fheal-67904A.15044624012008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net:
haha
geez youre stupid
That's hilarious coming from somebody who has yet to grasp the concepts of
capitalization, punctuation and basic sentence structure.
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| User: "TheApostle" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 05:46:06 PM |
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This post, gregvk <greg@nospam.okthx>
Message-ID:<<Xns9A2FA6580AC6EA7E90087C86051@127.0.0.1>>
may be monitored for quality assurance:
|
|mariposas rand mair fheal <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in
|news:mair_fheal-67904A.15044624012008@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net:
|
|> haha
|> geez youre stupid
|
|That's hilarious coming from somebody who has yet to grasp the concepts of
|capitalization, punctuation and basic sentence structure.
I resemble that remark...
--
X=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-X
Join the Pirate Party! http://www.pirate-party.us
Sharkpost Home http://www.sharkpost.net
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http://tiny.cc/pedophilepaul
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| User: "Elmer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 06:58:41 PM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
wait a sec
okay
i didnt do that but i discussed it with one of the trees in the yard
and it wants to know why youre so violent
when all it does is block the summer sun and create oxygen
and pretty flowers and sweet fragrance
And you know this how????
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "mariposas rand mair fheal" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 08:22:47 PM |
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In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of
relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
wait a sec
okay
i didnt do that but i discussed it with one of the trees in the yard
and it wants to know why youre so violent
when all it does is block the summer sun and create oxygen
and pretty flowers and sweet fragrance
And you know this how????
we talked about it
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "nicco" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
26 Jan 2008 07:14:01 AM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of
relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
wait a sec
okay
i didnt do that but i discussed it with one of the trees in the yard
and it wants to know why youre so violent
when all it does is block the summer sun and create oxygen
and pretty flowers and sweet fragrance
And you know this how????
we talked about it
Light flirts with the brain.
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| User: "Elmer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 08:44:02 PM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of
relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
Why? It seems that anything according to you is equally valid. It's all relative
after all.
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
wait a sec
okay
i didnt do that but i discussed it with one of the trees in the yard
and it wants to know why youre so violent
when all it does is block the summer sun and create oxygen
and pretty flowers and sweet fragrance
And you know this how????
we talked about it
Whoosh. And nary a hair on his head was disturbed.
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "nicco" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
26 Jan 2008 07:15:51 AM |
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Elmer wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory
of relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
Why? It seems that anything according to you is equally valid. It's all
relative after all.
and now you want to tell us what is the truth
what is reality
and you demand that we accept that you got it right
No I don't demand it. Please kick a tree and tell us what happens.
wait a sec
okay
i didnt do that but i discussed it with one of the trees in the yard
and it wants to know why youre so violent
when all it does is block the summer sun and create oxygen
and pretty flowers and sweet fragrance
And you know this how????
we talked about it
Whoosh. And nary a hair on his head was disturbed.
Balding.
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| User: "mariposas rand mair fheal" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 10:42:57 PM |
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In article <S1cmj.2711$Sa1.1005@news02.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of
relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
Why? It seems that anything according to you is equally valid. It's all
relative
after all.
fraidy cat
fradiy cat
you cant even be bothered to get easily available information
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "nicco" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
26 Jan 2008 07:17:24 AM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <S1cmj.2711$Sa1.1005@news02.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of
relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
Why? It seems that anything according to you is equally valid. It's all
relative
after all.
fraidy cat
fradiy cat
you cant even be bothered to get easily available information
Apparently, information of the rational sort if quite scary.
.
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| User: "Elmer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 10:55:40 PM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <S1cmj.2711$Sa1.1005@news02.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <5vamj.2825$7d1.1603@news01.roc.ny>,
Elmer <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
and that geocentric and heliocentric are equally valid and invalid
SO? The earth still goes around the sun.
haha
geez youre stupid
you want to lecture me about reality
and you dont even grasp the signficance of einsteins general theory of
relativity
or why its called -relativity-
So you do? Great. Explain it for us.
you wont believe me
ask a physicist
google it do some research
Why? It seems that anything according to you is equally valid. It's all
relative
after all.
fraidy cat
fradiy cat
you cant even be bothered to get easily available information
Easily available information? Then it should be no big deal for you to educate
us all.
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "ebataitis" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 10:49:23 AM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <412mj.2775$7d1.1339@news01.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
Elijahovah wrote:
Evolution denial in a nutshell:
I would like the Universe to be different than it is. Rather than adjust
my expectations of reality, I will insist that reality isn't real, and my
fantasies are. When I gather enough similarly deluded people, we will
pressure our local school boards to teach school children that my
fantasies are fact.
Adam's creation in 4025 BC
denial of it in a nutshell:........... goes like this.
I would like the Universe to be different than it is. Rather than
adjust
my expectations of reality, I will insist that reality isn't real, and
my
fantasies are. When I gather enough similarly deluded people, we will
pressure our local school boards to teach school children that my
fantasies are fact. I would like to know where tey get the right to
force
the evolution and not allow the other theories.
Scientific evidence.
prove scientific evidence is a valid criteria
To do science it's needed. Otherwise one could make up any old story and
call it science.
.
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| User: "mariposas rand mair fheal" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 11:04:54 AM |
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In article <nk3mj.2666$Sa1.629@news02.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <412mj.2775$7d1.1339@news01.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
Elijahovah wrote:
Evolution denial in a nutshell:
I would like the Universe to be different than it is. Rather than adjust
my expectations of reality, I will insist that reality isn't real, and my
fantasies are. When I gather enough similarly deluded people, we will
pressure our local school boards to teach school children that my
fantasies are fact.
Adam's creation in 4025 BC
denial of it in a nutshell:........... goes like this.
I would like the Universe to be different than it is. Rather than
adjust
my expectations of reality, I will insist that reality isn't real, and
my
fantasies are. When I gather enough similarly deluded people, we will
pressure our local school boards to teach school children that my
fantasies are fact. I would like to know where tey get the right to
force
the evolution and not allow the other theories.
Scientific evidence.
prove scientific evidence is a valid criteria
To do science it's needed. Otherwise one could make up any old story and
call it science.
what if i am not interested in doing science?
you got a group of people who suspect they are risking eternal torment
if they accept your criteria of -scientific evidence-
do a risk analysis under those assumptions
so what have you got except your unproven declaration of what the truth must be?
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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| User: "ebataitis" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Fact? |
24 Jan 2008 12:25:39 PM |
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mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <nk3mj.2666$Sa1.629@news02.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
mariposas rand mair fheal wrote:
In article <412mj.2775$7d1.1339@news01.roc.ny>,
ebataitis <nylicens@frontiernet.net> wrote:
Elijahovah wrote:
Evolution denial in a nutshell:
I would like the Universe to be different than it is. Rather than adjust
my expectations of reality, I will insist that reality isn't real, and my
fantasies are. When I gather enough similarly deluded people, we will
pressure our local school boards to teach school children that my
fantasies are fact.
Adam's creation in 4025 BC
denial of it in a nutshell:........... goes like this.
I would like the Universe to be different than it is. Rather than
adjust
my expectations of reality, I will insist that reality isn't real, and
my
fantasies are. When I gather enough similarly deluded people, we will
pressure our local school boards to teach school children that my
fantasies are fact. I would like to know where tey get the right to
force
the evolution and not allow the other theories.
Scientific evidence.
prove scientific evidence is a valid criteria
To do science it's needed. Otherwise one could make up any old story and
call it science.
what if i am not interested in doing science?
To each his own, but you can't teach it as science then.
you got a group of people who suspect they are risking eternal torment
if they accept your criteria of -scientific evidence-
do a risk analysis under those assumptions
so what have you got except your unproven declaration of what the truth must be?
Hmm, if you don't accept the existence of truth, then there's not much
that anyone can do to help.
arf meow arf - everything thing i know i learned
from the collective unconscience of odd bodkins
sacramento - political pigsty of the western world
or a babys arm holding an apple
.
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