| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
28 Mar 2006 07:51:02 AM |
| Object: |
Is Evolution a Religion? |
Is Evolution a Religion?
By Ellery Schempp
IDists claim that there is an "intelligent design" view and that
evolution is "an equal religion". They usually say "Darwinism". Of
course, there is no such thing as "Darwinism", this is a word made up
by IDists to label those who do not accept their views. Let's
consider what characterizes traditional religions and whether
evolution is a religion. The historical record shows numerous
distinctions.
The Theory of Evolution is not a religion.
Evolution has no priests, pastors, ministers, preachers, bishops,
ayatollahs, imams, mullahs, prophets (or televangelical profits). No
holy books or sacred scriptures. It has no holidays, no feast days,
no canonized saints. It depends on no miracles. It gets no tax
exemptions.
Evolution has no alter boys, no prayers, no church establishments, no
edifices with crosses, stars or crescents, no churches or temples, no
coming-of-age rituals like Bar Mitzvah or confirmation.
Evolution has no banned books, no warnings about heresy or blasphemy,
no record of burning witches or heretics, no public displays of piety
or prayer, no holy book supposed to contain "All Truth", no creed to
be ritually recited. Evolution does not define pagans or infidels.
There are no mythological beliefs or transubstantiations.
Evolution has no history of torturing non-believers, has never
started a war, never burned an opponent at the stake. The idea of
evolution has no record of sex scandals. No record of financial
fraud. No record of trying to get a passport stamped for entry into
heaven. Evolution offers no condemnations to hell nor promises of an
after-life.
Evolution does not support occult beliefs. The scientific theory of
evolution has no dependence on a supernatural deity or pixies; no
prayer rituals, no burial rituals, no sacraments. There are no
invisible beings, gods, deities, devils, demons, ghosts, satans,
angels, spirits, cherubim, seraphim, faeries, or a soul. Evolution
recognizes no destructions as "acts of God" nor acts of violence
as "acts of Satan or an anti-christ."
Evolution does not depend on blind faith; it offers no argument from
authority; no conclusion first, facts second. There is no body
of "apologetics" from the theory of evolution.
The above are evidences of religion. The idea of evolution, which is
based on observation of the natural world as we see it, does not have
any of the attributes of religion. Indeed, evolution is the
opposite, it welcomes energetic inquiries and thoughtful inputs.
Evolution looks not to miracles to understand the world around us.
Evolution, as all science, looks to evidence that we can see and
understand and test. Neither evolution nor any scientific construct
claims to offer moral or political guidance.
Evolution is consistent with a democratic outlook in which the rights
of the people are derived from the people. Evolution is not
consistent with the view that the natural world is only revealed by
authorities or a view that rights derive from authorities, especially
not from authorities anointed under a doctrine of the Divine Right of
Kings. It is the natural world as all can see and understand, and it
depends on no revelations, no sacred texts.
The Theory of Evolution, the Theory of Gravity, the Germ Theory of
Disease are not religion and not religious. Just because you think
something is true does not make it a religion.
The theory of evolution is the antithesis of traditional religions;
it champions the free mind, and the spirit of free inquiry to see
where facts, observations, and the power of reason as the human mind
leads.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads [Virginia] SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members, there are members from
all over the US and a couple from overseas as well]
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
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| User: "Joseph Welch" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
28 Mar 2006 06:21:08 PM |
|
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<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:qpfi221vgv4k1pcuqnhm2mn7jbrn3tovqq@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
--
JW
***************
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have
you left no sense of decency?"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
28 Mar 2006 09:47:05 PM |
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On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:21:08 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
<buckeye-elo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:qpfi221vgv4k1pcuqnhm2mn7jbrn3tovqq@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design. Science should be open minded to accept the
possibility of unknown.
.
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| User: "Joseph Welch" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
28 Mar 2006 10:56:20 PM |
|
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
If you wingnuts want to cram your religion down people's throats, you'll
have to share air time with Islam, Satanism, Yup'ik creation mythology,
Norse mythology, and let's not forget about the giant spaghetti monster -
with equal weight given to all.
Go for it.
--
JW
***************
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have
you left no sense of decency?"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
29 Mar 2006 10:32:17 AM |
|
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Joseph Welch wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
Science is open minded to the unknown, but "Intelligent Design" isn't
unknown.
If you wingnuts want to cram your religion down people's throats, you'll
have to share air time with Islam, Satanism, Yup'ik creation mythology,
Norse mythology, and let's not forget about the giant spaghetti monster -
with equal weight given to all.
Go for it.
--
JW
***************
"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have
you left no sense of decency?"
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/welch-mccarthy.html
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
29 Mar 2006 10:40:11 AM |
|
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On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If you wingnuts want to cram your religion down people's throats, you'll
have to share air time with Islam, Satanism, Yup'ik creation mythology,
Norse mythology, and let's not forget about the giant spaghetti monster -
with equal weight given to all.
Go for it.
.
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| User: "Rich Travsky " |
|
| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
01 Apr 2006 11:18:53 PM |
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Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
Show that.
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
ID is creationism. Period.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8042
23 September 2005
...
The debate over ID, an idea that opponents call camouflaged
creationism, has been raging since the publication in 1989 of
a book called Of Pandas and People, which introduced the concept.
The trial, known as Kitzmiller-Dover after one the parents
Tammy Kitzmiller, will be the first to expose ID to the scrutiny
of a court.
It will hinge on whether ID is a respectable scientific theory,
or a religious belief that masquerades as science to sidestep a
1987 Supreme Court ruling that outlawed the teaching of
creationism in schools.
The plaintiffs will argue that it is the latter. There is so much
evidence that this is just the latest incarnation of creationism,
says Walczak. He points to early drafts of Of Pandas and People,
written before 1987. Its identical except for where it says
creationism it now says intelligent design.
...
nature and the source of intelligence.
If you wingnuts want to cram your religion down people's throats, you'll
have to share air time with Islam, Satanism, Yup'ik creation mythology,
Norse mythology, and let's not forget about the giant spaghetti monster -
with equal weight given to all.
Go for it.
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
29 Mar 2006 12:02:48 PM |
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Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view. And since the science is falsifiable, then it's a
pseudoscience, and belongs with astrology.
If you wingnuts want to cram your religion down people's throats, you'll
have to share air time with Islam, Satanism, Yup'ik creation mythology,
Norse mythology, and let's not forget about the giant spaghetti monster -
with equal weight given to all.
Go for it.
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
30 Mar 2006 06:57:24 AM |
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On 29 Mar 2006 10:02:48 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view.
My mistake. ID is a philosophical view about the *origin* of the
natural world.
And since the science is falsifiable, then it's a
pseudoscience, and belongs with astrology.
If you wingnuts want to cram your religion down people's throats, you'll
have to share air time with Islam, Satanism, Yup'ik creation mythology,
Norse mythology, and let's not forget about the giant spaghetti monster -
with equal weight given to all.
Go for it.
.
|
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
30 Mar 2006 09:19:47 AM |
|
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:elkn2253qbelq0ck6jna5pv47h79tp3l7e@4ax.com...
On 29 Mar 2006 10:02:48 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools
in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view.
My mistake. ID is a philosophical view about the *origin* of the
natural world.
ID is religion.
Thou reigions may mirror "philosophy", they are not the same.
ID is a conclusion based on an assumption founded on ignorance.
Philosophies would question the value of their own philosopy (recognize that
they are group beliefs, and opinions.
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
.
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| User: "Eric Brze" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
31 Mar 2006 12:17:58 AM |
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On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:19:47 -0500, "ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:elkn2253qbelq0ck6jna5pv47h79tp3l7e@4ax.com...
On 29 Mar 2006 10:02:48 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools
in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view.
My mistake. ID is a philosophical view about the *origin* of the
natural world.
ID is religion.
Religion requires worship. ID is a wisdom teaching.
Thou reigions may mirror "philosophy", they are not the same.
ID is a conclusion based on an assumption founded on ignorance.
It is not an assumption. It is an inspiration based on modern
scientific discoveries. Modern science is not ignorance, and neither
is ID.
Philosophies would question the value of their own philosopy (recognize that
they are group beliefs, and opinions.
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
ID is open for questions and discussions. The problem is, most
scientists are incapable to engage in philosophical discussions. Their
thinking process is not trained to deal with that. It's their
ignorance that made them believe ID is a form of religious belief.
They are the ones who are ignorant.
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
31 Mar 2006 02:36:49 AM |
|
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"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:qghp22ltkivvr5vs6h3quntuafllpl6rtq@4ax.com...
On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:19:47 -0500, "ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:elkn2253qbelq0ck6jna5pv47h79tp3l7e@4ax.com...
On 29 Mar 2006 10:02:48 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public
schools
in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view.
My mistake. ID is a philosophical view about the *origin* of the
natural world.
ID is religion.
Religion requires worship. ID is a wisdom teaching.
?????????????????
About the same level as Noah's Ark, the Exodus, The seven plagues, the
parting of the Red Sea,
Adam and Eve, etc.. ALL fables and fairy tales that require no worship, but
are DEFINATELY religon!
Thou reigions may mirror "philosophy", they are not the same.
ID is a conclusion based on an assumption founded on ignorance.
It is not an assumption. It is an inspiration based on modern
scientific discoveries. Modern science is not ignorance, and neither
is ID.
It is based on the assumptioonp that there is a god; or don't you know that
ALL of the ID proponents are fanatical christians and (the large majority
are) former biblical creationists?
Modern science is not ignorance, ID is CRAP!
Philosophies would question the value of their own philosopy (recognize
that
they are group beliefs, and opinions.
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
ID is open for questions and discussions. The problem is, most
scientists are incapable to engage in philosophical discussions.
???????????
ID is a phjilosopy...... which means it ISN'T a "science" - it's a "Social
study".
There is NO "open for dicussion" about ID ....... it is an end claim unto
itself.
"Yes it is" is NOT a discussion!
Their
thinking process is not trained to deal with that. It's their
ignorance that made them believe ID is a form of religious belief.
They are the ones who are ignorant.
OK ..............
What is the criteria for ID?
"Complexity" is tossed around ........ what is the scientific criteria for
Complexity?
What is the scientific measurement and scale for complexity?
What is the borderline for complexity level to indicate "god's handiwork"?
This is as insane and corrupt as saying "a sunset is so beautiful, there
must be a god"... and then trying to provide THAT claim as scientific.
Where is the evidence for ANY supernatural being?
You CANNOT use ID .... because you are using ID to support gawd!!!!
The ignorance is yours......
.
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| User: "Rich Travsky " |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
02 Apr 2006 03:23:26 AM |
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Eric Brze wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 10:19:47 -0500, "ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com>
wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:elkn2253qbelq0ck6jna5pv47h79tp3l7e@4ax.com...
On 29 Mar 2006 10:02:48 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools
in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view.
My mistake. ID is a philosophical view about the *origin* of the
natural world.
ID is religion.
Religion requires worship. ID is a wisdom teaching.
ID is creationism and requires worship. See below.
Thou reigions may mirror "philosophy", they are not the same.
ID is a conclusion based on an assumption founded on ignorance.
It is not an assumption. It is an inspiration based on modern
scientific discoveries. Modern science is not ignorance, and neither
is ID.
ID, being derived from religion, is an attempt to deny science.
Philosophies would question the value of their own philosopy (recognize that
they are group beliefs, and opinions.
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
ID is open for questions and discussions. The problem is, most
Fine. Then where does this space alien designer come from?
scientists are incapable to engage in philosophical discussions. Their
thinking process is not trained to deal with that. It's their
Wrong.
ignorance that made them believe ID is a form of religious belief.
They are the ones who are ignorant.
ID is a religious belief. It's creationism.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8042
23 September 2005
...
The debate over ID, an idea that opponents call camouflaged
creationism, has been raging since the publication in 1989 of
a book called Of Pandas and People, which introduced the concept.
The trial, known as Kitzmiller-Dover after one the parents
Tammy Kitzmiller, will be the first to expose ID to the scrutiny
of a court.
It will hinge on whether ID is a respectable scientific theory,
or a religious belief that masquerades as science to sidestep a
1987 Supreme Court ruling that outlawed the teaching of
creationism in schools.
The plaintiffs will argue that it is the latter. There is so much
evidence that this is just the latest incarnation of creationism,
says Walczak. He points to early drafts of Of Pandas and People,
written before 1987. Its identical except for where it says
creationism it now says intelligent design.
...
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
|
| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
30 Mar 2006 10:14:17 AM |
|
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ZenIsWhen wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:elkn2253qbelq0ck6jna5pv47h79tp3l7e@4ax.com...
On 29 Mar 2006 10:02:48 -0800, "Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Eric Brze wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 20:56:20 -0800, "Joseph Welch"
<seattledemocracy@freewebspace.com> wrote:
"Eric Brze" <brze@no.spam.mail.com> wrote in message
news:8k0k22dotf8ng3qkgvg3eakiobcf8t315s@4ax.com...
Is Evolution a Religion?
No.
Then it has nothing to fear about the creative thinking called
intelligent design.
"Evolution" doesn't feel fear. Communities that value freedom and
separation between church and state do.
Science should be open minded to accept the possibility of unknown.
Science is. Religion is not, and doesn't belong in our public schools
in
any context other than comparitive religion - an examination of all
religious mythologies giving equal value to all.
ID is only a philosophical view of the natural world. It does not have
to do with religion or mythology. It's a study and inquiry about the
nature and the source of intelligence.
If ID is a study of nature it's not a philosphical view, it is a
scientific view.
My mistake. ID is a philosophical view about the *origin* of the
natural world.
ID is religion.
Thou reigions may mirror "philosophy", they are not the same.
ID is a conclusion based on an assumption founded on ignorance.
Philosophies would question the value of their own philosopy (recognize that
they are group beliefs, and opinions.
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
Good point.
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
31 Mar 2006 01:56:20 AM |
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"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed over the
years. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
31 Mar 2006 02:39:39 AM |
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"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed over
the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
(The protected pedohile priests, for example. Even AFTER the big mess, the
RCC has only minimally altered it's policies toward pedo-priests)
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
03 Apr 2006 07:01:21 AM |
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"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:122pqm7g1s1tt76@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed over
the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
03 Apr 2006 08:06:46 AM |
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"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:122pqm7g1s1tt76@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed over
the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Not the core parts; and even some of the more extremist actions.
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
04 Apr 2006 12:39:04 AM |
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"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:12327f91s0m61e6@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:122pqm7g1s1tt76@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about
"gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed
over the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history
of religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Not the core parts; and even some of the more extremist actions.
Nobody said anything about the core parts, but, I think it was as late as
the 70's (maybe it was the 60's) that Jehovah's Witnesses accepted the
divinity of Jesus Christ, realizing that it was much easier to attract new
converts. It wasn't until 1848 that the Catholic Church introduced the
concept of the "Immaculate Conception" and Vatican II in the 1960s saw
changes to core beliefs and the elimination of many saints. Judaism didn't
originally have a wedding ceremony, that was borrowed from European
Christians and Reform Judaism certainly abandoned a great deal of "core"
beliefs. While granted, "core" or foundation beliefs have remained much
more adherent to original traditions, they too, have changed over time while
other church practices and traditions have seen considerable change. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
03 Apr 2006 07:16:46 AM |
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On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:01:21 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer:
<l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:122pqm7g1s1tt76@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about "gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed over
the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Or even more startling: Scientology.
--
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
04 Apr 2006 12:39:03 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:5g4232hnt14lemqrvn603d1nl2l8s3u7da@4ax.com...
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:01:21 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer:
<l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:122pqm7g1s1tt76@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about
"gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed
over
the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Or even more startling: Scientology.
Scientology may call itself a "church" as a tax dodge that failed, but, it
really isn't a religion in that it has not concept of a "deity" nor is there
any suggestion that one recognize a deity. Before he founded Scientology,
L. Ron Hubbard remarked that if you really want to get rich, start your own
religion. He did, in fact, get very rich, but, he had a miserable life in
that every civilized country in the world had warrants out for his arrest,
forcing him to live on a yacht at sea in international waters where he was
safe from arrest. Nevertheless, real religions have changed over time. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
04 Apr 2006 02:36:35 AM |
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On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:39:03 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <XDnYf.58581$bn3.31334@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:5g4232hnt14lemqrvn603d1nl2l8s3u7da@4ax.com...
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:01:21 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer:
<l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"ZenIsWhen" <onehand@clapping.com> wrote in message
news:122pqm7g1s1tt76@corp.supernews.com...
"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote in message
news:Eg5Xf.45637$bn3.6654@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
"Neil Kelsey" <neil_kelsey@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143735257.502217.27850@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
ZenIsWhen wrote:
Religions do NOT question themselves and have no doubts about
"gawd"..
Good point.
Many religions question themselves and for that reason have changed
over
the years. KM
?? They have?
Seems to me the only thing that changes religon is forces from OUTSIDE
religion, when religious zealots get to powerful and corrupt!
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Or even more startling: Scientology.
Scientology may call itself a "church" as a tax dodge that failed, but, it
really isn't a religion in that it has not concept of a "deity" nor is there
any suggestion that one recognize a deity. Before he founded Scientology,
L. Ron Hubbard remarked that if you really want to get rich, start your own
religion. He did, in fact, get very rich, but, he had a miserable life in
that every civilized country in the world had warrants out for his arrest,
forcing him to live on a yacht at sea in international waters where he was
safe from arrest. Nevertheless, real religions have changed over time. KM
I guess that brings up the salient point as to: what exactly is a
"Religion"?
You imply that it intrinsically demands the recognition of a "deity",
which is a fair point.
Which also brings up the issue of what (exactly), is a "Deity"?
You seem exceptionally lucid and learned on the matter, so would you
feel able and be willing to define this term "deity", as you imagine
it?
I don't mean in a strict dictionary straight-jacket defintion,
(although that would be nice), but a more informal description that
could be "fleshed out" with discussion for, you see, I have no real
idea of what a "deity" is, and so don't see how one is able to to
perform the vital deliniation of 'Religions' from 'Non-religions' on
that nebulous basis.
--
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
05 Apr 2006 05:08:14 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:5a8432t1h2215777midps2bd4v0dm2i4eu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:39:03 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <XDnYf.58581$bn3.31334@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:5g4232hnt14lemqrvn603d1nl2l8s3u7da@4ax.com...
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:01:21 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer:
<l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history
of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Or even more startling: Scientology.
Scientology may call itself a "church" as a tax dodge that failed, but, it
really isn't a religion in that it has no concept of a "deity" nor is
there
any suggestion that one recognize a deity. Before he founded Scientology,
L. Ron Hubbard remarked that if you really want to get rich, start your
own
religion. He did, in fact, get very rich, but, he had a miserable life in
that every civilized country in the world had warrants out for his arrest,
forcing him to live on a yacht at sea in international waters where he was
safe from arrest. Nevertheless, real religions have changed over time.
KM
I guess that brings up the salient point as to: what exactly is a
"Religion"?
You imply that it intrinsically demands the recognition of a "deity",
which is a fair point.
Which also brings up the issue of what (exactly), is a "Deity"?
You seem exceptionally lucid and learned on the matter, so would you
feel able and be willing to define this term "deity", as you imagine
it?
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes and to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized as
one. A "deity" is a God which is a Supreme Being and a divinity, i.e.
divine as opposed to Zeus, Jupiter and Thor who were never considered to be
Supreme Beings in the sense of being flawless, omnipotent, omniscient or
creators of the universe. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
06 Apr 2006 04:54:27 AM |
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:08:14 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <iGMYf.62159$bn3.45303@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:5a8432t1h2215777midps2bd4v0dm2i4eu@4ax.com...
On Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:39:03 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <XDnYf.58581$bn3.31334@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:5g4232hnt14lemqrvn603d1nl2l8s3u7da@4ax.com...
On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:01:21 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer:
<l88Yf.677030$qk4.644247@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
So, all you're saying is that you don't know anything about the history
of
religions. Even the really young religions practiced by Mormons and
Jehovah's Witnesses have changed considerably in the last 100 years. KM
Or even more startling: Scientology.
Scientology may call itself a "church" as a tax dodge that failed, but, it
really isn't a religion in that it has no concept of a "deity" nor is
there
any suggestion that one recognize a deity. Before he founded Scientology,
L. Ron Hubbard remarked that if you really want to get rich, start your
own
religion. He did, in fact, get very rich, but, he had a miserable life in
that every civilized country in the world had warrants out for his arrest,
forcing him to live on a yacht at sea in international waters where he was
safe from arrest. Nevertheless, real religions have changed over time.
KM
I guess that brings up the salient point as to: what exactly is a
"Religion"?
You imply that it intrinsically demands the recognition of a "deity",
which is a fair point.
Which also brings up the issue of what (exactly), is a "Deity"?
You seem exceptionally lucid and learned on the matter, so would you
feel able and be willing to define this term "deity", as you imagine
it?
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes and to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized as
one.
I defer to your superior knowledge upon that matter, despite my clear
rememberance of a pair of Scientologists claiming the oppostie.
A "deity" is a God which is a Supreme Being and a divinity, i.e.
divine as opposed to Zeus, Jupiter and Thor who were never considered to be
Supreme Beings in the sense of being flawless, omnipotent, omniscient or
creators of the universe. KM
That sounds like a very strange and restrictive defintition of a
deity.
One which entirely excludes the god of the Abrahamic religions, all of
the Anamistic religions that I am familiar with, and damnit, EVERY
single religion that I can think of!
There is something wrong with either my erudition regarding world
beliefs, or your definition.
--
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
07 Apr 2006 03:02:15 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:n0p932le02vvie6k7hcj71tl0cs1noj7du@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:08:14 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <iGMYf.62159$bn3.45303@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes and
to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized as
one.
I defer to your superior knowledge upon that matter, despite my clear
rememberance of a pair of Scientologists claiming the oppostie.
Well, I, too, have heard adherents to Scientology refer to it as a religion,
but, that doesn't make it so. Words have meanings. By the same token, I
can call a Volkswagen a "fire hydrant" all day long, but, it doesn't make it
a fire hydrant. And using the same scheme, I could form an organization
designed to "clear" our brains of their "engrams" and prepare us to someday
become Thetans and/or go through walls of fire, while calling my
organization a "church", but that doesn't make it a church or its followers
members of a "religion" of my invention. And also, you might say it's a
weak argument if I say thus-and-so is what Lutherans believe, because a
Lutheran told me so. Not all members of any given organization are by any
means "experts" on that organization or the approriate terminology for that
group. A good example would be the Americans in this forum. ;-) KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Rich Travsky " |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
08 Apr 2006 12:39:29 AM |
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Alohacyberian wrote:
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:n0p932le02vvie6k7hcj71tl0cs1noj7du@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:08:14 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <iGMYf.62159$bn3.45303@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes and
to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized as
one.
I defer to your superior knowledge upon that matter, despite my clear
rememberance of a pair of Scientologists claiming the oppostie.
Well, I, too, have heard adherents to Scientology refer to it as a religion,
but, that doesn't make it so. Words have meanings. By the same token, I
They're tax exempt on the basis of being a religion.
can call a Volkswagen a "fire hydrant" all day long, but, it doesn't make it
a fire hydrant. And using the same scheme, I could form an organization
designed to "clear" our brains of their "engrams" and prepare us to someday
become Thetans and/or go through walls of fire, while calling my
organization a "church", but that doesn't make it a church or its followers
members of a "religion" of my invention. And also, you might say it's a
weak argument if I say thus-and-so is what Lutherans believe, because a
Lutheran told me so. Not all members of any given organization are by any
means "experts" on that organization or the approriate terminology for that
group. A good example would be the Americans in this forum. ;-) KM
.
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
08 Apr 2006 04:13:35 AM |
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"Rich Travsky" <" traRvEsky"@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote in message
news:44374C91.BB230B7F@hotmMOVEail.com...
Alohacyberian wrote:
Well, I, too, have heard adherents to Scientology refer to it as a
religion,
but, that doesn't make it so. Words have meanings. By the same token, I
They're tax exempt on the basis of being a religion.
They're not tax exempt, though that was their ploy - it failed. When it
failed they launched a considerable attack against the IRS including looting
and destroying some IRS offices. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
08 Apr 2006 02:41:55 AM |
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On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 23:39:29 -0600, Rich Travsky <"
traRvEsky"@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <44374C91.BB230B7F@hotmMOVEail.com>
Alohacyberian wrote:
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:n0p932le02vvie6k7hcj71tl0cs1noj7du@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:08:14 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <iGMYf.62159$bn3.45303@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes and
to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized as
one.
I defer to your superior knowledge upon that matter, despite my clear
rememberance of a pair of Scientologists claiming the oppostie.
Well, I, too, have heard adherents to Scientology refer to it as a religion,
but, that doesn't make it so. Words have meanings. By the same token, I
They're tax exempt on the basis of being a religion.
It was my impression that the status was gained by virtue of them
being a "Church".
can call a Volkswagen a "fire hydrant" all day long, but, it doesn't make it
a fire hydrant. And using the same scheme, I could form an organization
designed to "clear" our brains of their "engrams" and prepare us to someday
become Thetans and/or go through walls of fire, while calling my
organization a "church", but that doesn't make it a church or its followers
members of a "religion" of my invention. And also, you might say it's a
weak argument if I say thus-and-so is what Lutherans believe, because a
Lutheran told me so. Not all members of any given organization are by any
means "experts" on that organization or the approriate terminology for that
group. A good example would be the Americans in this forum. ;-) KM
--
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| User: "Alohacyberian" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
09 Apr 2006 05:44:06 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:59qe329ovm5jh5dm4b1cii706hud966con@4ax.com...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 23:39:29 -0600, Rich Travsky <"
traRvEsky"@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <44374C91.BB230B7F@hotmMOVEail.com>
Alohacyberian wrote:
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:n0p932le02vvie6k7hcj71tl0cs1noj7du@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:08:14 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <iGMYf.62159$bn3.45303@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes
and
to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it
has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized
as
one.
I defer to your superior knowledge upon that matter, despite my clear
rememberance of a pair of Scientologists claiming the oppostie.
Well, I, too, have heard adherents to Scientology refer to it as a
religion,
but, that doesn't make it so. Words have meanings. By the same token,
I
They're tax exempt on the basis of being a religion.
It was my impression that the status was gained by virtue of them
being a "Church".
The status was never gained from the IRS by virtue of the fact that
Scientology isn't a "church" by any reasonable definition of the word,
though they claimed to be so thinking they could get the tax-exempt status
that was denied to them by the Internal Revenue Service. Don't get me
wrong, they still refused to pay taxes and were, therefore, taken to task by
the federal government if the United States and almost every other country
in the free world. That's one of the reasons their founder was forced to
live out his last days on a yacht in international waters because almost
every country in the world had warrants out for his arrest. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3600 live cameras or
visit NASA, the Vatican, the Smithsonian, the Louvre, CIA, FBI or
CNN, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards & 150 foreign languages
Visit Hawaii, Israel and more: http://keith.martin.home.att.net/
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
09 Apr 2006 12:15:51 PM |
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"Alohacyberian" <alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
They're tax exempt on the basis of being a religion.
It was my impression that the status was gained by virtue of them
being a "Church".
The status was never gained from the IRS by virtue of the fact that
Scientology isn't a "church" by any reasonable definition of the word,
though they claimed to be so thinking they could get the tax-exempt status
that was denied to them by the Internal Revenue Service. Don't get me
wrong, they still refused to pay taxes and were, therefore, taken to task by
the federal government if the United States and almost every other country
in the free world. That's one of the reasons their founder was forced to
live out his last days on a yacht in international waters because almost
every country in the world had warrants out for his arrest. KM
I think you are more than a decade out of date. The IRS granted the
CoS tax exempt status and the once-secret agreement refers to them
using the word "Church".
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/irs.html
lojbab
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| User: "Gray Shockley" |
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| Title: Re: Is Evolution a Religion? |
09 Apr 2006 12:07:52 PM |
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On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 05:44:06 -0500, Alohacyberian wrote
(in article <Wz5_f.2288$Im6.2246@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>):
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:59qe329ovm5jh5dm4b1cii706hud966con@4ax.com...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 23:39:29 -0600, Rich Travsky <"
traRvEsky"@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote:
- Refer: <44374C91.BB230B7F@hotmMOVEail.com>
Alohacyberian wrote:
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:n0p932le02vvie6k7hcj71tl0cs1noj7du@4ax.com...
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:08:14 GMT, "Alohacyberian"
<alohacyberian@att.net> wrote:
- Refer: <iGMYf.62159$bn3.45303@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
While Scientology may claim it is a "church" for tax evasion purposes
and
to
also get its adherents to refrain from attending other churches, it
has
never claimed to be a religion, though it might well be characterized
as
one.
I defer to your superior knowledge upon that matter, despite my clear
rememberance of a pair of Scientologists claiming the oppostie.
Well, I, too, have heard adherents to Scientology refer to it as a
religion,
but, that doesn't make it so. Words have meanings. By the same token,
I
They're tax exempt on the basis of being a religion.
It was my impression that the status was gained by virtue of them
being a "Church".
The status was never gained from the IRS by virtue of the fact that
Scientology isn't a "church" by any reasonable definition of the word,
though they claimed to be so thinking they could get the tax-exempt status
that was denied to them by the Internal Revenue Service.
Every reference I've seen says they got tax-exemption in the 1990s.
Results 1 - 50 of about 75,500 English pages for +"scientology" +"tax
exempt". (0.66 seconds)
The Shadowy Story Behind Scientology's Tax-Exempt Status - 9 March ...
"However, for our purposes, we classify Scientology as a religion because
they were granted tax-exempt status by the American government." ...
www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/nytimes.html - 43k - Cached - Similar pages
Scientology's battle for tax exemption, 1952-80
The most recent articles on the subject (see the New York Times piece, "The
Shadowy Story Behind Scientology's Tax-Exempt Status") have focused on the
....
www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/battle.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.cs.cmu.edu ]
Scientology and Dianetics - Tax-exempt Child Abuse and Neglect
Scientology and Dianetics - Tax-exempt Child Abuse and Neglect.
www.taxexemptchildabuse.net/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
Scientology's Tax Exempt Status Should Be Rescinded
This is the type of activity that is now tax exempt. Scientology course work
is similar to a Catholic confessional in that it is a review of the person's
....
www.lisamcpherson.org/irs/jeff-irs.htm - 119k - Cached - Similar pages
More at same search on Google.
Don't get me
wrong, they still refused to pay taxes and were, therefore, taken to task by
the federal government if the United States and almost every other country
in the free world. That's one of the reasons their founder was forced to
live out his last days on a yacht in international waters because almost
every country in the world had warrants out for his arrest. KM
.
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