Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Shannon Jacobs"
Date:	04 Jun 2005 06:02:53 PM
Object:	Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?

There doesn't seem to be a suitable newsgroup for this query, but it does
seem to touch on these three areas. My own academic background includes
philosophy, but I'm quite out of touch with the recent philosophic
developments, and my current "religious" beliefs are probably closest to Zen
Buddhism. I'm actually an extreme agnostic, though these topics seem to be
most vigorously discussed in the context of atheism. I certainly don't
equate the truth of the Bible or Koran or Book of Mormon with the truth of
God's existence, but this query is about a criticism of the divinity of all
religious books that claim divine inspiration by a wise god figure of any
sort. Hopefully my query can be quickly answered by a few pointers to
relevant mathematical analyses.
This argument is quite general, but for the sake of simplicity and to make
it concrete, I'm going to focus on the Christian Bible and some of the
specific beliefs of certain "fundamentalist" Christians who regard their
Bible as the divinely inspired work of God. There are lots of logical
problems that arise from that foundation, but I've never read of the
following analysis:
First the hypotheses:
1. God is very wise.
2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).
3. God knows information theory (as part of mathematics).
4. Humans only developed information theory recently.
5. God always knew information theory.
6. Information theory describes accurate message transmission.
7. God controlled the creation of a message to mankind (the Bible).
Conditional statement:
If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.
As far as I know, there is no mathematical analysis of the use of the
techniques of information theory in the Bible. If such techniques were not
used, then there is obviously a contradiction somewhere among the
hypotheses. On the other hand, if information theoretic techniques are
clearly present in the Bible, which was written long before we humans
developed those techniques, then it would be very strong evidence in favor
of the Bible's divinity. Does anyone know of such any such analyses?
This will probably not help, but I feel obliged to state my position on the
issue at hand. I do not accept the Bible as the precisely accurate word of
God, and I reserve judgment on the question of divine inspiration. On the
face of it, the Bible seems to be a quite human construction, combining a
lot of fantasy with a certain amount of history (but the standards of
historical scholarship were quite low in those days).
--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread" and/or ploinked.
.

User: "FreeThink"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 12:39:28 AM

<snip>

As far as I know, there is no mathematical analysis of the use of the
techniques of information theory in the Bible. If such techniques were not
used, then there is obviously a contradiction somewhere among the
hypotheses. On the other hand, if information theoretic techniques are
clearly present in the Bible, which was written long before we humans
developed those techniques, then it would be very strong evidence in favor
of the Bible's divinity. Does anyone know of such any such analyses?

Here is a page that encapsulates what Mark Perakh thinks in regard to
this. He reviews some published writings that favor the counter
arguments which you can also reference.
http://www.nctimes.net/~mark/bibl_science/
I suspect that if a real "bible code" was discovered, which won't
happen, it would be received by Christians in the same fashion the
Vatican responded to a novel with that title.
.

User: "Shannon Jacobs"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 01:15:00 AM

FreeThink wrote:

<snip>

As far as I know, there is no mathematical analysis of the use of the
techniques of information theory in the Bible. If such techniques
were not used, then there is obviously a contradiction somewhere
among the hypotheses. On the other hand, if information theoretic
techniques are clearly present in the Bible, which was written long
before we humans developed those techniques, then it would be very
strong evidence in favor of the Bible's divinity. Does anyone know
of such any such analyses?

Here is a page that encapsulates what Mark Perakh thinks in regard to
this. He reviews some published writings that favor the counter
arguments which you can also reference.

http://www.nctimes.net/~mark/bibl_science/

I suspect that if a real "bible code" was discovered, which won't
happen, it would be received by Christians in the same fashion the
Vatican responded to a novel with that title.

Thanks for the reference, but he doesn't really seem to approach it from a
perspective directly related to information theory. Actually, that notion of
"encoding" would seem to be destroyed by any translation attempt, given the
looseness of natural human languages. However, an information theoretic
approach can take translation into account.
When I wrote the original post, I was actually thinking more the lines of a
Jesuit scholar as a likely candidate, because I think you would need to
begin such an analysis from a sympathetic perspective, and you would also
need a fair amount of mathematical sophistication. I don't think you could
start from the null signal hypothesis, but would be better off starting from
the hypothesis that there is a signal buried in there, and even with some
idea of what the signal was, and then you would be able to test for such
things as whether or not it used the kind of structured redundancy that
would avoid error.
There were some other comments directed at various hypotheses. Those
comments are not really relevant, since the context of this particular
example is for people who have accepted those hypotheses, and who then want
to defend the Bible as a divinely inspired and accurate transmission of
God's word.
--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".
.

User: "FreeThink"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 01:45:04 AM

Shannon Jacobs wrote:

FreeThink wrote:

<snip>

As far as I know, there is no mathematical analysis of the use of the
techniques of information theory in the Bible. If such techniques
were not used, then there is obviously a contradiction somewhere
among the hypotheses. On the other hand, if information theoretic
techniques are clearly present in the Bible, which was written long
before we humans developed those techniques, then it would be very
strong evidence in favor of the Bible's divinity. Does anyone know
of such any such analyses?

Here is a page that encapsulates what Mark Perakh thinks in regard to
this. He reviews some published writings that favor the counter
arguments which you can also reference.

http://www.nctimes.net/~mark/bibl_science/

I suspect that if a real "bible code" was discovered, which won't
happen, it would be received by Christians in the same fashion the
Vatican responded to a novel with that title.

Thanks for the reference, but he doesn't really seem to approach it from a
perspective directly related to information theory. Actually, that notion of
"encoding" would seem to be destroyed by any translation attempt, given the
looseness of natural human languages. However, an information theoretic
approach can take translation into account.

When I wrote the original post, I was actually thinking more the lines of a
Jesuit scholar as a likely candidate, because I think you would need to
begin such an analysis from a sympathetic perspective, and you would also
need a fair amount of mathematical sophistication. I don't think you could
start from the null signal hypothesis, but would be better off starting from
the hypothesis that there is a signal buried in there, and even with some
idea of what the signal was, and then you would be able to test for such
things as whether or not it used the kind of structured redundancy that
would avoid error.

There were some other comments directed at various hypotheses. Those
comments are not really relevant, since the context of this particular
example is for people who have accepted those hypotheses, and who then want
to defend the Bible as a divinely inspired and accurate transmission of
God's word.

--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".

There was this link that was critical review of a paper published by a
bible scholar. The math is over my head....
http://www.nctimes.net/~mark/fcodes/hasofer.htm
.

User: "Raan"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 03:14:40 PM

"FreeThink" <zeno7772004@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1117953904.828826.193670@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Shannon Jacobs wrote:

FreeThink wrote:

<snip>

As far as I know, there is no mathematical analysis of the use of the
techniques of information theory in the Bible. If such techniques
were not used, then there is obviously a contradiction somewhere
among the hypotheses. On the other hand, if information theoretic
techniques are clearly present in the Bible, which was written long
before we humans developed those techniques, then it would be very
strong evidence in favor of the Bible's divinity. Does anyone know
of such any such analyses?

Here is a page that encapsulates what Mark Perakh thinks in regard to
this. He reviews some published writings that favor the counter
arguments which you can also reference.

http://www.nctimes.net/~mark/bibl_science/

I suspect that if a real "bible code" was discovered, which won't
happen, it would be received by Christians in the same fashion the
Vatican responded to a novel with that title.

Thanks for the reference, but he doesn't really seem to approach it from

perspective directly related to information theory. Actually, that

notion of

"encoding" would seem to be destroyed by any translation attempt, given

the

looseness of natural human languages. However, an information theoretic
approach can take translation into account.

When I wrote the original post, I was actually thinking more the lines

of a

Jesuit scholar as a likely candidate, because I think you would need to
begin such an analysis from a sympathetic perspective, and you would

also

need a fair amount of mathematical sophistication. I don't think you

could

start from the null signal hypothesis, but would be better off starting

from

the hypothesis that there is a signal buried in there, and even with

some

idea of what the signal was, and then you would be able to test for such
things as whether or not it used the kind of structured redundancy that
would avoid error.

There were some other comments directed at various hypotheses. Those
comments are not really relevant, since the context of this particular
example is for people who have accepted those hypotheses, and who then

want

to defend the Bible as a divinely inspired and accurate transmission of
God's word.

--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".

There was this link that was critical review of a paper published by a
bible scholar. The math is over my head....

http://www.nctimes.net/~mark/fcodes/hasofer.htm

Here are two links which answer the general Bible Code claims:
http://skepdic.com/bibcode.html
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/biblec.htm
I quote here from the second link:
"Essentially the way that the code works is the author takes all the words
in the Bible, removes all spaces between the words and punctuation, then
using a computer he looks at every (*)th word. He then strings these words
together to try and find some connection to events that have already
happened, called retro-fitting. Using this code you can find hidden
messages in any book, Drosnin's critics claimed, in which he retorted " when
my critics find a message about the assassination of a prime minister
encrypted in Moby *****, I'll believe them." One of his critics, Brendan
McKay took up the challenge to find that message and not only did he find
it, a reference to Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, she also found
messages about other assassinations of; President Rene Moawad, Leon Trotsky,
Martin Luther King, the assassin Sirhan Sirhan, John F. Kennedy, Abraham
Lincoln and the list goes on. But David E. Thomas dealt the final death
blow came when he found the saying "The code is bogus" 60 times in the book
of Genesis."
-- Author Michael Drosnin
--

</>

User: "Shannon Jacobs"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	10 Jun 2005 10:20:23 PM

I should include the context, but it's still irrelevant to the original
question about information theory. I do agree with the comment that the
Bible encoding theory is bogus, though I'd word it differently. I actually
do have enough mathematical background that I should have been able to
follow the mathematical parts of the arguments fairly easily, and the
difficulty there is part of what convinces me that the approach is bogus.
Essentially they are just constructing a complicated pattern matching
system, and if you search for a large group of patterns, you are going to
have some hits. It's actually a variation of what they call the "birthday
attack" in cryptography.
--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".
.

User: "Jim07D5"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	04 Jun 2005 07:07:41 PM

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> said:

Alternative conditional statement (I'm not a theist, BTW):
If God wanted members of mankind to have some sort of challenge to
overcome, then he would not have transmitted his message in a way that
eliminated this challenge. If transmitting his message perfectly would
eliminate this challenge, he would not transmit it perfectly (but
meeting his objective by so doing, would still be done perfectly). So,
proper interpretation of the message becomes part of the challenge.
Of course, God is not really fooling anybody but himself. But what
else has he to do for all eternity? Subdivide, have the subdivisions
forget, let them figure it out. Try again, somewhere else.
B--o--r--i--n--g.
Jim07D5
.

User: "BTR1701"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	04 Jun 2005 09:13:23 PM

In article <95g4a1llhr3gag8q9j5sgimfi49qbctv6o@4ax.com>,
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> said:

Well, that would imply a certain amount sadism and psychopathy on the
part of this supposedly "loving" god. Because this isn't merely an
intellectual challenge to be performed in a vacuum. The eternal souls of
the readers are at stake. If we fail to overcome god's supposed
challenge, we suffer in hell for all eternity.
For god to impart his message in a purposely vague and obtuse manner and
then condemn people to hell for not figuring out what he really meant to
say makes him a monster.
.

User: "Jim07D5"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	04 Jun 2005 11:12:39 PM

BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> said:

In article <95g4a1llhr3gag8q9j5sgimfi49qbctv6o@4ax.com>,
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> said:

Well, it is self-directed sadism, which makes it also masochism.
Perhaps better than infinite boredom?

For god to impart his message in a purposely vague and obtuse manner and
then condemn people to hell for not figuring out what he really meant to
say makes him a monster.

Yes, but it is not our concern.
I agree, though, the usual story is BENT.
Jim07D5
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	08 Jun 2005 09:59:28 PM

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 22:13:23 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

In article <95g4a1llhr3gag8q9j5sgimfi49qbctv6o@4ax.com>,
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> said:

Well, that would imply a certain amount sadism and psychopathy on the
part of this supposedly "loving" god. Because this isn't merely an
intellectual challenge to be performed in a vacuum. The eternal souls of
the readers are at stake. If we fail to overcome god's supposed
challenge, we suffer in hell for all eternity.

For god to impart his message in a purposely vague and obtuse manner and
then condemn people to hell for not figuring out what he really meant to
say makes him a monster.

It is. Fortunately, it is bronze age fantasy.
The omniscience claim and 'Divine Plan' really
bite Christians in the *****.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 11:31:47 AM

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> wrote in message
news:42a2335b$0$4959$44c9b20d@news3.asahi-net.or.jp...
<snip>

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.
2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).
3. God knows information theory (as part of mathematics).
4. Humans only developed information theory recently.
5. God always knew information theory.
6. Information theory describes accurate message transmission.
7. God controlled the creation of a message to mankind (the Bible).

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean like use a DCT or wavelet transform to maximize
entropy then use a block code or convolutional code to handle
channel imperfections?

As a friend used to like to say, "You're going through Escondido", meaning
you are taking an excessively indirect route.
The Bible is rife with obvious contradictions.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
"Shannon Jacobs", eh.
Claude Shannon - father of information theory.
Irwin Jacobs - advanced cellular telephony by
applying information theory.
--
rb #2187
.

User: "Mike"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	06 Jun 2005 07:48:01 AM

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.agnosticism.]
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 16:31:47 GMT, Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> wrote in message
news:42a2335b$0$4959$44c9b20d@news3.asahi-net.or.jp...
<snip>

First the hypotheses:
1. God is very wise.
2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).
3. God knows information theory (as part of mathematics).
4. Humans only developed information theory recently.
5. God always knew information theory.
6. Information theory describes accurate message transmission.
7. God controlled the creation of a message to mankind (the Bible).
Conditional statement:
If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean like use a DCT or wavelet transform to maximize
entropy then use a block code or convolutional code to handle
channel imperfections?

This one is fun too:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/merciful.html
--
Mike.
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	08 Jun 2005 09:57:37 PM

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs"
<shanen@cashette.com> wrote:

At the end of my post I'll have two questions since you piqued my
curiosity.

This argument is quite general, but for the sake of simplicity and to make
it concrete, I'm going to focus on the Christian Bible and some of the
specific beliefs of certain "fundamentalist" Christians who regard their
Bible as the divinely inspired work of God. There are lots of logical
problems that arise from that foundation, but I've never read of the
following analysis:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

for sufficently small values of very

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

for sufficently small values of very

3. God knows information theory (as part of mathematics).

for sufficently small values of very

4. Humans only developed information theory recently.
5. God always knew information theory.

False.

6. Information theory describes accurate message transmission.

I'll take your word for it.

7. God controlled the creation of a message to mankind (the Bible).

And screwed that up-which was known before the 'manufacture' of the
universe.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

No need for information theory since the Christian daemon deity is
claimed to be omniscient and omnipotent.
Omni=all
That gives...
'God' knew the 'information' was not going to be disseminated properly
and 'manufactured' the universe anyway.
or
'God' knew the 'information' was not going to be disseminated properly
and 'manufactured' the universe anyway and found (which was known
beforehand too) 'He' couldn't correct the problem.

As far as I know, there is no mathematical analysis of the use of the
techniques of information theory in the Bible.

I'd like to point out there's very little reality in the Bible, and
certainly no justice.

If such techniques were not
used, then there is obviously a contradiction somewhere among the
hypotheses. On the other hand, if information theoretic techniques are
clearly present in the Bible, which was written long before we humans
developed those techniques, then it would be very strong evidence in favor
of the Bible's divinity. Does anyone know of such any such analyses?

The Bible is made up with mostly stolen stories and concepts in
violation of the Christian Prime Directive� against theft. Nothing
'Divine' in the whole bronze age faerie tale.

This will probably not help, but I feel obliged to state my position on the
issue at hand. I do not accept the Bible as the precisely accurate word of
God, and I reserve judgment on the question of divine inspiration. On the
face of it, the Bible seems to be a quite human construction, combining a
lot of fantasy with a certain amount of history (but the standards of
historical scholarship were quite low in those days).

Actually, your position statement does help. The Bible is a human
construction full of fantasy, idiocy, inhumanity, ignorance, bigotry,
prejudice, inflated egos, meglomania, sociopaths, psychopaths, and it
goes downhill from there.
On the other hand, the tome does open a window on a society some two
millenia dead.
I'm not sure my reply is of much help-but I tried.
Now for my two questions;
1) I've never heard of anyone describe themself as an 'extreme
agnostic,' please expound.
2) What is there to be 'agnostic' about? (puzzled)
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "MagicRub"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	08 Jun 2005 10:39:58 PM

"stoney"

1) I've never heard of anyone describe themself as an 'extreme
agnostic,' please expound.

We atheist agnostics go one step beyond simply having an absence of belief
there might be a deity, we unabashedly deny and repudiate such unsupported
religious belief. See Thomas Huxley "Agnosticism and Christianity" 1889
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe
in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe
in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do
not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many
generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything
agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all,
then accept it and live up to it."
[Gautama Shakyamuni (Buddha)]
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	11 Jun 2005 11:58:52 AM

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:39:58 -0700, "MagicRub" <mr@nospam.net> wrote:

"stoney"

1) I've never heard of anyone describe themself as an 'extreme
agnostic,' please expound.

Such remains a lack of theism but gives the reason(s) for the lack of
belief in the superstition. Is there something I'm not seeing?
The 'meat' of the matter seems to be this [about 1/2 down the page]
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_huxley/huxley_wace/part_02.html
When I reached intellectual maturity and began to ask myself whether I
was an atheist, a theist, or a pantheist; a materialist or an
idealist; a Christian or a freethinker - I found that the more I
learned and reflected, the less ready was the answer; until, at last,
I came to the conclusion that I had neither art nor part with any of
these denominations, except the last. The one thing in which most of
these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed
from them. They were quite sure they had attained a certain "gnosis" -
had, more or less successfully, solved the problem of existence; while
I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that
the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could
not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion.
/end
Looks like Huxley got trapped by binary thinking concerning the lack
of theism. There is no 'problem of existence.' As for 'gnosis,' what
is there to 'know?'
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "Shannon Jacobs"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	10 Jun 2005 10:34:51 PM

stoney wrote:
<snip>
A thoughtful response, but I don't have much to add to it, though I will
briefly address your questions:

1) I've never heard of anyone describe themself as an 'extreme
agnostic,' please expound.

Actually just a minor joke, like the "extreme moderate". Most recent version
I saw was on Jon Stewart's show, where he was recommending the moderates
should run around screaming with banners that say "Be reasonable!"

2) What is there to be 'agnostic' about? (puzzled)

I personally have seen no conclusive evidence in favor or against the
existence of any god. However, if there is such a being, I would rather hope
he has more important things to do than worry about how much I do or do not
pray.
--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	11 Jun 2005 12:19:03 PM

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:34:51 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs"
<shanen@cashette.com> wrote:

stoney wrote:
<snip>

A thoughtful response, but I don't have much to add to it, though I will
briefly address your questions:

Thank you.

1) I've never heard of anyone describe themself as an 'extreme
agnostic,' please expound.

Heh. Thing is, what one person says in jest another says in ernest.
That's why I asked.

2) What is there to be 'agnostic' about? (puzzled)

I personally have seen no conclusive evidence in favor or against the
existence of any god.

Here's the thing; what is a g-o-d?
A simple question which brings theists to a 'screetching halt,'
because what is presented as a 'definition;' begs myraid questions,
contains broken logic, and provides zero information. There is,
literally, nothing to look for or consider.
So, what is a g-o-d?
If such cannot be answered why give a particular random letter string
special treatment? Please keep in mind I'm asking a question. I am
not asking or expecting any change in your label.

However, if there is such a being,

There isn't.

I would rather hope
he has more important things to do than worry about how much I do or do not
pray.

Since 'God' equals christian shamans and their prophet$ they've much
to worry about.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.

User: "Shannon Jacobs"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	11 Jun 2005 08:12:07 PM

stoney wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:34:51 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs"
<shanen@cashette.com> wrote:

<snip>
Again, interesting comments, but I'm going to cut to focus only on this bit,
and try to bring it back to the original question from a slightly different
perspective.

I personally have seen no conclusive evidence in favor or against the
existence of any god.

Here's the thing; what is a g-o-d?

This is the distracting issue, and the one that tends to bring discussion to
a halt. It is always possible to create some god by definition, but there is
no guaranteed relationship between any definition and reality, even if you
manage to get the other parties to the discussion to accept your definition.
This is not an interesting point, and I am simply willing to stipulate the
existence of God is indeterminate. I appeal to a simple inductive argument.
By whatever criteria you select, you can find people who are higher or
lower, and if a God exists, then he will also be higher or lower. All of the
definitions with which I'm familiar tend to put God at the high end. If a
more powerful and more clever being chooses to conceal his existence from
me, then that being will be able to do so, and by the very hypotheses of
that being as having greater power and greater cleverness, there is nothing
I can do about it. Similarly, if such a being chooses to partially conceal
his existence, or give me clues or hints I'm supposed to figure out, then it
is still out of my power, since it would be that being's decision as to
whether or not the puzzle would be within my limited capabilities. I simply
reserve judgment and continue to look at the evidence I encounter. (However,
I admit that I think the behavior of many Christians appears to be pretty
strong evidence against their own various definitions of God.)
Of course if you use some kind of trans-human definition of God then all of
His behavior is inexplicable. I'm basically assuming a rational God with an
actual message for mankind, which is the essential claim of most holy books,
and particularly a claim of many Christians about the Bible.
If we lowly humans were attempting to send an important message to someone,
we would attempt to send it as reliably as possible. In the ancient days
before writing, the techniques might have including shouting louder. After
the written word was invented, the techniques would have included making
extra copies of the message. Nowadays, we understand the mathematics of
information theory, and we would use those techniques to help insure
reliable transmission of the message. We thus return to the original
questions of the Subject: and ask whether or not any religious work
(including the Bible, of course) contains any evidence of an awareness of
information theory.
--
Trolls fed to "The vile spewers of mindless blather thread".
.

User: "Raan"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	11 Jun 2005 10:33:31 PM

"Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> wrote in message
news:42ab8bf2$0$25197$44c9b20d@news3.asahi-net.or.jp...

stoney wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 12:34:51 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs"
<shanen@cashette.com> wrote:

<snip>
Again, interesting comments, but I'm going to cut to focus only on this

bit,

and try to bring it back to the original question from a slightly

different

perspective.

I personally have seen no conclusive evidence in favor or against the
existence of any god.

Here's the thing; what is a g-o-d?

This is the distracting issue, and the one that tends to bring discussion

a halt. It is always possible to create some god by definition, but there

no guaranteed relationship between any definition and reality, even if you
manage to get the other parties to the discussion to accept your

definition.

This is not an interesting point, and I am simply willing to stipulate the
existence of God is indeterminate. I appeal to a simple inductive

argument.

By whatever criteria you select, you can find people who are higher or
lower, and if a God exists, then he will also be higher or lower. All of

the

definitions with which I'm familiar tend to put God at the high end. If a
more powerful and more clever being chooses to conceal his existence from
me, then that being will be able to do so, and by the very hypotheses of
that being as having greater power and greater cleverness, there is

nothing

I can do about it. Similarly, if such a being chooses to partially conceal
his existence, or give me clues or hints I'm supposed to figure out, then

is still out of my power, since it would be that being's decision as to
whether or not the puzzle would be within my limited capabilities. I

simply

reserve judgment and continue to look at the evidence I encounter.

(However,

I admit that I think the behavior of many Christians appears to be pretty
strong evidence against their own various definitions of God.)

Of course if you use some kind of trans-human definition of God then all

His behavior is inexplicable. I'm basically assuming a rational God with

actual message for mankind, which is the essential claim of most holy

books,

and particularly a claim of many Christians about the Bible.

If we lowly humans were attempting to send an important message to

someone,

we would attempt to send it as reliably as possible. In the ancient days
before writing, the techniques might have including shouting louder. After
the written word was invented, the techniques would have included making
extra copies of the message. Nowadays, we understand the mathematics of
information theory, and we would use those techniques to help insure
reliable transmission of the message. We thus return to the original
questions of the Subject: and ask whether or not any religious work
(including the Bible, of course) contains any evidence of an awareness of
information theory.

--

Hopefully to get back on track, what kind of answer would you find
acceptable to your question. If there were evidence, what would you expect
it to consist of. And finally why are you asking the question at all?
Sorry if this all seems redundant but the topic seems to have strayed
somewhat.
--

</>

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 10:05:06 AM

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com> wrote:

First the hypotheses:
1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

3. God knows information theory (as part of mathematics).
4. Humans only developed information theory recently.
5. God always knew information theory.
6. Information theory describes accurate message transmission.
7. God controlled the creation of a message to mankind (the Bible).
Conditional statement:
If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

The bible is the word of God but presented to us in the hand and vocabulary of
man.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "BTR1701"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 02:42:56 PM

In article <8m46a1tenjvvdvbd94koouff9hughp3ici@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com>
wrote:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

Well, if his purpose is to get his message across in the most clear,
concise and unambiguous manner, he failed.
If he had some other purpose in mind, he's a psychopath for condemning
people to hell for not figuring out a message he purposely left vague
and open to wild interpretation.
.

User: "Jim07D5"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 07:39:28 PM

BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> said:

In article <8m46a1tenjvvdvbd94koouff9hughp3ici@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com>
wrote:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

Well, if his purpose is to get his message across in the most clear,
concise and unambiguous manner, he failed.

If he had some other purpose in mind, he's a psychopath for condemning
people to hell for not figuring out a message he purposely left vague
and open to wild interpretation.

Maybe "he" didn't condemn people to hell for not etc. IOW there could
be another narrative -- I speak as a nontheist, BTW.
Jim07D5
.

User: "BTR1701"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	05 Jun 2005 08:44:12 PM

In article <1n67a19nk5e9rht9rn6t3nr6d9ald26s4a@4ax.com>,
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> said:

In article <8m46a1tenjvvdvbd94koouff9hughp3ici@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com>
wrote:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

Well, if his purpose is to get his message across in the most clear,
concise and unambiguous manner, he failed.

If he had some other purpose in mind, he's a psychopath for condemning
people to hell for not figuring out a message he purposely left vague
and open to wild interpretation.

Maybe "he" didn't condemn people to hell for not etc. IOW there could
be another narrative

Where? If there's another narrative that no one knows about and people
are going to hell for not knowing about it, we're back to god being a
psychopath again.
.

User: "Jim07D5"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	06 Jun 2005 12:33:58 AM

BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> said:

In article <1n67a19nk5e9rht9rn6t3nr6d9ald26s4a@4ax.com>,
Jim07D5 <Jim07D5@nospam.net> wrote:

BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> said:

In article <8m46a1tenjvvdvbd94koouff9hughp3ici@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com>
wrote:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

Well, if his purpose is to get his message across in the most clear,
concise and unambiguous manner, he failed.

If he had some other purpose in mind, he's a psychopath for condemning
people to hell for not figuring out a message he purposely left vague
and open to wild interpretation.

Maybe "he" didn't condemn people to hell for not etc. IOW there could
be another narrative

Where? If there's another narrative that no one knows about and people
are going to hell for not knowing about it, we're back to god being a
psychopath again.

The other narrative I have in mind (and i am not a theist) is that we
are not all going to hell. It's called universalism of this kind:
"In Christianity, Universalism, Universal reconciliation, or universal
salvation, is the doctrine that all people will eventually be saved
and go to heaven when they die. This is based on the belief that a
loving God would not submit any person, regardless of their sins, to
eternal torment. This is a belief held by some protestant
denominations. An extension of this, called "strong universalism,"
holds that no person, even the greatest sinner, is sent to Hell, and
therefore Hell does not even exist."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism
All I am saying is that after we are done rejecting the Christians who
have hellfire and damnation on their minds, there might be another
kind. They are not as dangerous.
Jim07D5
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	06 Jun 2005 05:42:48 PM

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:42:56 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

In article <8m46a1tenjvvdvbd94koouff9hughp3ici@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com>
wrote:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

Well, if his purpose is to get his message across in the most clear,
concise and unambiguous manner, he failed.

Yet his reasons were rock solid for the method he chose. Don't blame God for
your failures to understand. So many of us do understand.

If he had some other purpose in mind, he's a psychopath for condemning
people to hell for not figuring out a message he purposely left vague
and open to wild interpretation.

Oh, his message is oh, so, sooooooo clear.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "BTR1701"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	06 Jun 2005 07:14:56 PM

In article <88k9a1d7oc5gb73dvk3mnmisrq1fagtn3c@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 15:42:56 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

In article <8m46a1tenjvvdvbd94koouff9hughp3ici@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:02:53 +0900, "Shannon Jacobs" <shanen@cashette.com>
wrote:

First the hypotheses:

1. God is very wise.

No, God is wisdom.

2. God understands math (as part of his wisdom).

God invented math.

Conditional statement:

If God wanted to accurately transmit a message to mankind, then he would
have used his knowledge of information theory to help insure that the
message was transmitted accurately.

You mean by human logic. If you are truly learned, you must accept that
almighty God has his reasons for his method.

Well, if his purpose is to get his message across in the most clear,
concise and unambiguous manner, he failed.

Yet his reasons were rock solid for the method he chose. Don't blame God for
your failures to understand.

Of course I'm going to blame god. He's omnipotent and omniscient. He has
the ability to communicate so that *everyone* understands. He chose not
to. The fault lies with him.

So many of us do understand.

No, you *think* you understand. There's no way that you or anyone else
can be sure. Saying you do is just hubris.
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	07 Jun 2005 05:19:55 AM

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:14:56 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Yet his reasons were rock solid for the method he chose. Don't blame God for
your failures to understand.

Of course I'm going to blame god. He's omnipotent and omniscient. He has
the ability to communicate so that *everyone* understands. He chose not
to. The fault lies with him.

Well, those of us that want to hear clearly heard.

So many of us do understand.

No, you *think* you understand. There's no way that you or anyone else
can be sure. Saying you do is just hubris.

What makes you think you haven't heard? You just rejected his message. Don't
blame God for your refusal to listen.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "BTR1701"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	07 Jun 2005 06:45:45 PM

In article <q2taa1hjsqel44qr802qkoq6ov5sqm3n3o@4ax.com>,
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:14:56 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Yet his reasons were rock solid for the method he chose. Don't blame God
for your failures to understand.

Of course I'm going to blame god. He's omnipotent and omniscient. He has
the ability to communicate so that *everyone* understands. He chose not
to. The fault lies with him.

Well, those of us that want to hear clearly heard.

No, you just *think* you did. You have no independent and objective
means of verifying whether you're right or not.

So many of us do understand.

No, you *think* you understand. There's no way that you or anyone else
can be sure. Saying you do is just hubris.

What makes you think you haven't heard?

I didn't say anything about hearing. My comment was about understanding.
Considering how many different flavors of Christianity there are out
there, all of whom claim to "clearly hear" god's message, yet all of
whom seem to hear it differently, you've got a long way to go toward
proving you're the one with the key to it all.
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	08 Jun 2005 05:34:54 AM

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:45:45 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

Of course I'm going to blame god. He's omnipotent and omniscient. He has
the ability to communicate so that *everyone* understands. He chose not
to. The fault lies with him.

Well, those of us that want to hear clearly heard.

No, you just *think* you did. You have no independent and objective
means of verifying whether you're right or not.

Oh, you just *think* you didn't.
He talked, I listened. What's your problem.

So many of us do understand.

No, you *think* you understand. There's no way that you or anyone else
can be sure. Saying you do is just hubris.

What makes you think you haven't heard?

I didn't say anything about hearing. My comment was about understanding.

Considering how many different flavors of Christianity there are out
there, all of whom claim to "clearly hear" god's message, yet all of
whom seem to hear it differently, you've got a long way to go toward
proving you're the one with the key to it all.

Nope, only one flavor - Jesus is Lord.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

User: "Cary Kittrell"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	08 Jun 2005 03:37:40 PM

In article <ibida1h8ohqmg35di6g8leqkoccbkf5af8@4ax.com> duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> writes:

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:45:45 -0400, BTR1701 <btr1702@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

{...}

Considering how many different flavors of Christianity there are out
there, all of whom claim to "clearly hear" god's message, yet all of
whom seem to hear it differently, you've got a long way to go toward
proving you're the one with the key to it all.

Nope, only one flavor - Jesus is Lord.

Interesting. So everyone who believes "Jesus is Lord" has gotten
things equally right. Catholics, who think the Pope is Jesus'
Vicar; Protestants, who know he most certainly is NOT; Mormons,
who know that both Catholics and Protestants have scriptures
with large and important parts totally missing: all have heard clearly.
Very 50s-retro of you, very ecumenical. I approve.
-- cary
.

User: "duke"
Title: Re: Is God a fool? Doesn't He know information theory?	08 Jun 2005 05:53:11 PM

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:37:40 +0000 (UTC),

(Cary
Kittrell) wrote:

Nope, only one flavor - Jesus is Lord.

Interesting.

It shouldn't be. If you don't understand THAT, you have been mouthing off for
all these years without the slightest clue about what you're saying.

So everyone who believes "Jesus is Lord" has gotten
things equally right.

IS a Christian.

Catholics, who think the Pope is Jesus'
Vicar; Protestants, who know he most certainly is NOT; Mormons,
who know that both Catholics and Protestants have scriptures
with large and important parts totally missing: all have heard clearly.

Every one says "Jesus is Lord". Now from there, the deviations start - to some
saying "he didn't mean that" or "that's not what he said", etc etc.
But every Christian says Jesus is Lord, that he died on the cross for the
redemption of our sins and to restore salvation to our souls.
Mormons are not Christian but cult because they reject Jesus as man, or vice
versa.
Protest_ants go nuts telling us Catholics that we worship Mary when we
constantly and consistently tell them we don't. Jesus said that man would
forgive sins in his name, and protest_ants go crazy saying "no". Even though
the bible says "yes" in plain English.

Very 50s-retro of you, very ecumenical. I approve.
-- cary

Great.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.

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