| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
24 Sep 2005 03:49:00 PM |
| Object: |
Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
July 12, 2005
On Sunday they packed 'em in -- a circumstance you wouldn't have noted
for some long while in English churches, which, like European churches
in general, seem to resound mainly with historic echoes. But there was
praying to be done, and it seemed to the English people meet, right and
their bounden duty -- as the Book of Common Prayer would have it -- to
lay their sorrows and perplexities before the Lord.
And so, three days after the explosions and screams that scarred a
London morning, something like the old European civilization popped
back into view. I didn't say that the old civilization itself --
abounding in faith and zeal and confidence -- made a return appearance.
I said something like it emerged for just a moment. It was a sight for
sore eyes, because even before the bombs exploded, Europe was in
trouble. In trouble it remains. It appreciates better now the measure
of that trouble, if not fully the nature of the solution.
Modern Europe lacks a first-order purpose. That lack discloses itself
in the London explosions.
Europe is full of second-order purposes: enjoyment, economic security
and vacations. What does Europe exist to affirm? It's doubtful if
Europeans know any more.
Not Christian transcendence. In most of Europe, Christian practice
barely exists. The famous, now dormant, European Union constitution
lacked any acknowledgement of the historical fact of the continent's
Christian past. No, no, not secular enough.
Accordingly, the European population base is in grave decline. As
Robert Samuelson wrote recently in the Washington Post, "Europe's
birthrates have dropped well below the replacement rate of 2.1 children
for each woman of childbearing age. For Western Europe as a whole, the
rate is 1.5. It's 1.4 in Germany and 1.3 in Italy."
It is what happens when those second-order purposes -- enjoyment, etc.
-- choke out the older, nobler ones -- justice, reverence, etc. "Me
First" is Europe's reigning principle. The first-order purposes require
inconvenient sacrifices: me second, third or fourth. Who cares to
change a diaper? Pay for a nanny? Send the kids, or the kinder ,
through college? Down goes the birthrate.
With what consequences? Not the smallest is the disappearance of a
population base requisite to funding future retirees' benefits. We know
something of this in America due to the Social Security debate. The
case is much harder in Europe, though, than in America. That can mean
bring on the immigrants: Start them paying into the system! But Europe
has long been doing this. It has meant, in practice, the creation of a
very large population of European Muslims -- 4 percent of Britain's
population, 10 percent of France's. It would be one thing if these were
happy immigrants assimilating themselves happily into the larger
society. As the Wall Street Journal notes this week, the larger reality
is the self-distancing of European Muslims from their neighbors. In
France, as in England, "the signs of fundamentalist Islam are on the
rise," and jihadist preachers address themselves to what one expert
calls Muslims "unmoored from their traditional beliefs and ripe for
recruitment."
The bishop of London, Richard Chartres, preaching at St. Paul's
Cathedral the day after Bloody Thursday, recoiled from attacking Islam
as a religion. He probed more deeply. He saw "a spiritual vacuum" into
which "false religion" had intruded itself -- a religion, heedless of
God, "awesomely powerful and destructive." The strayed or departed
Christians of Europe -- of Britain -- might on such a reading reproach
themselves for creating an opening for the murderous radicals of Islam
to reach through and plant their explosives.
The evil purposes of murderous bombers are just the present problem.
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Is it back, now, at last, to first principles for Europe? Is there,
indeed, a shred of a choice?
.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 05:00:08 PM |
|
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Dana" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 05:44:57 PM |
|
|
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and start to
enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 06:40:18 PM |
|
|
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in
news:11jblecbti0s515@corp.supernews.com:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as
Europe for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's
willing breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live
without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading
to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and
start to enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
Somehow, I doubt this. But I know all you xians are looking forward to
those "wayward" non-xian Europeans getting punished by god like this.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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|
|
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 05:16:33 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:44:57 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and start to
enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
We have a substantial muslim population in nearby Bradford and over
the years they have built several mosques. There is a something of
a religious crisis going on for them since many of the young folk
don't bother going to mosques and there is growing signs their
religion is also starting to decline.
They first started arriving in the UK in the sixties from the Indian
subcontinent, mostly Urdu speaking muslims but also a substantial
minority of Sikhs and Hindus. They brought with them a strong
religious tradition
The third generation, and to some extent second generation, muslims
no longer speak Urdu and although many young ones, especially
the girls, express their religion by the way they dress most no longer
bother with religion. This is considered a crisis since many of the
clerics are now ageing and don't use English or even know English
and cannot even communicate with the younger ones. Of course
the second generationers came under strong pressure from theirm
parent to conform to tradition but they don't apply that same pressure
to their third generation children. Soon there won't even be a first
generation grandparents as the fourth generation begin to appear.
They are gradually being absorbed into our traditions as they grow
increasingly further from their asian roots.
There has definitely been something of an awakening of the dangers of
fundamental Islam to them as well as us especially since the attacks
in London and the cry of many is "Not in our name" since Islam is
a peaceful religion. They no more
want to be under the rule of the Taliban or the Ayotollahs than we
do (apart of course from the tiny vocal minority who do. I guess it is
similar to the situation with fundy Christians in the USA). They have
asked for the more extreme muslims not to be allowed here and
applauded our expelling of one or two extremists. The British
Council of Muslims have also come out against extremism emphasising
their religion is peaceful.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "1913 Dead" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 11:12:56 AM |
|
|
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:16:33 +0100, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:44:57 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and start to
enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
We have a substantial muslim population in nearby Bradford and over
the years they have built several mosques. There is a something of
a religious crisis going on for them since many of the young folk
don't bother going to mosques and there is growing signs their
religion is also starting to decline.
They first started arriving in the UK in the sixties from the Indian
subcontinent, mostly Urdu speaking muslims but also a substantial
minority of Sikhs and Hindus. They brought with them a strong
religious tradition
The third generation, and to some extent second generation, muslims
no longer speak Urdu and although many young ones, especially
the girls, express their religion by the way they dress most no longer
bother with religion. This is considered a crisis since many of the
clerics are now ageing and don't use English or even know English
and cannot even communicate with the younger ones. Of course
the second generationers came under strong pressure from theirm
parent to conform to tradition but they don't apply that same pressure
to their third generation children. Soon there won't even be a first
generation grandparents as the fourth generation begin to appear.
They are gradually being absorbed into our traditions as they grow
increasingly further from their asian roots.
There has definitely been something of an awakening of the dangers of
fundamental Islam to them as well as us especially since the attacks
in London and the cry of many is "Not in our name" since Islam is
a peaceful religion. They no more
want to be under the rule of the Taliban or the Ayotollahs than we
do (apart of course from the tiny vocal minority who do. I guess it is
similar to the situation with fundy Christians in the USA). They have
asked for the more extreme muslims not to be allowed here and
applauded our expelling of one or two extremists. The British
Council of Muslims have also come out against extremism emphasising
their religion is peaceful.
So, like communism, Islam may be destroyed by Levis Jeans and the
Beatles?
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
|
|
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 03:14:57 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:12:56 -0700, 1913 Dead
<zepp1913#2211finestplanet.com@> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:16:33 +0100, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:44:57 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and start to
enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
We have a substantial muslim population in nearby Bradford and over
the years they have built several mosques. There is a something of
a religious crisis going on for them since many of the young folk
don't bother going to mosques and there is growing signs their
religion is also starting to decline.
They first started arriving in the UK in the sixties from the Indian
subcontinent, mostly Urdu speaking muslims but also a substantial
minority of Sikhs and Hindus. They brought with them a strong
religious tradition
The third generation, and to some extent second generation, muslims
no longer speak Urdu and although many young ones, especially
the girls, express their religion by the way they dress most no longer
bother with religion. This is considered a crisis since many of the
clerics are now ageing and don't use English or even know English
and cannot even communicate with the younger ones. Of course
the second generationers came under strong pressure from theirm
parent to conform to tradition but they don't apply that same pressure
to their third generation children. Soon there won't even be a first
generation grandparents as the fourth generation begin to appear.
They are gradually being absorbed into our traditions as they grow
increasingly further from their asian roots.
There has definitely been something of an awakening of the dangers of
fundamental Islam to them as well as us especially since the attacks
in London and the cry of many is "Not in our name" since Islam is
a peaceful religion. They no more
want to be under the rule of the Taliban or the Ayotollahs than we
do (apart of course from the tiny vocal minority who do. I guess it is
similar to the situation with fundy Christians in the USA). They have
asked for the more extreme muslims not to be allowed here and
applauded our expelling of one or two extremists. The British
Council of Muslims have also come out against extremism emphasising
their religion is peaceful.
So, like communism, Islam may be destroyed by Levis Jeans and the
Beatles?
Actually the young asians have their own peculiar form of 'pop' music
which they play loudly on their car stereos, a blend of western pop
music with 'eastern' music and musical instrument. Nothing short of
cacophony to me.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
|
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| User: "1913 Dead" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 03:36:39 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:14:57 +0100, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:12:56 -0700, 1913 Dead
<zepp1913#2211finestplanet.com@> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:16:33 +0100, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:44:57 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and start to
enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
We have a substantial muslim population in nearby Bradford and over
the years they have built several mosques. There is a something of
a religious crisis going on for them since many of the young folk
don't bother going to mosques and there is growing signs their
religion is also starting to decline.
They first started arriving in the UK in the sixties from the Indian
subcontinent, mostly Urdu speaking muslims but also a substantial
minority of Sikhs and Hindus. They brought with them a strong
religious tradition
The third generation, and to some extent second generation, muslims
no longer speak Urdu and although many young ones, especially
the girls, express their religion by the way they dress most no longer
bother with religion. This is considered a crisis since many of the
clerics are now ageing and don't use English or even know English
and cannot even communicate with the younger ones. Of course
the second generationers came under strong pressure from theirm
parent to conform to tradition but they don't apply that same pressure
to their third generation children. Soon there won't even be a first
generation grandparents as the fourth generation begin to appear.
They are gradually being absorbed into our traditions as they grow
increasingly further from their asian roots.
There has definitely been something of an awakening of the dangers of
fundamental Islam to them as well as us especially since the attacks
in London and the cry of many is "Not in our name" since Islam is
a peaceful religion. They no more
want to be under the rule of the Taliban or the Ayotollahs than we
do (apart of course from the tiny vocal minority who do. I guess it is
similar to the situation with fundy Christians in the USA). They have
asked for the more extreme muslims not to be allowed here and
applauded our expelling of one or two extremists. The British
Council of Muslims have also come out against extremism emphasising
their religion is peaceful.
So, like communism, Islam may be destroyed by Levis Jeans and the
Beatles?
Actually the young asians have their own peculiar form of 'pop' music
which they play loudly on their car stereos, a blend of western pop
music with 'eastern' music and musical instrument. Nothing short of
cacophony to me.
I've heard it, on World Beat on NPR. It's like all popular music: 90%
of it is crap, and the remainder worth listening to.
Two of the best around are Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, formerly of
Led Zepplin.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
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|
|
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|
| User: "1913 Dead" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 06:41:13 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:44:57 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96DBB7631498wodencharternet@69.28.186.121...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without
this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to
the
US.
Wait to the large numbers of moslems take over your governments and start to
enforce sharia law.
You will not be laughing for much longer.
You're far more likely to see a nasty little theocracy here in America
than anywhere in western Europe.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
|
|
|
|
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 04:51:45 AM |
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|
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:08 GMT, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
It is not entirely true. In Tallinn (Estonia) recently, on a Sunday,
we visited some historic churches. The first was a Russian Orthodox
church. We could hardly get through the door since it was packed with
ethnic Russian worshippers taking 'mass'. (There is still a
substantial minority of Russian's living in Estonia). Some idiot down
the middle of the church was singing to them so I swiftly withdrew. We
also visited three other churches, all Lutheran. Apart from the odd
tourists like us they were empty.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 07:40:37 AM |
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In article <6krcj19khlo0orbr2nvmv0njai59h5h07j@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:08 GMT, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
It is not entirely true. In Tallinn (Estonia) recently, on a Sunday,
we visited some historic churches. The first was a Russian Orthodox
church. We could hardly get through the door since it was packed with
ethnic Russian worshippers taking 'mass'. (There is still a
substantial minority of Russian's living in Estonia). Some idiot down
the middle of the church was singing to them so I swiftly withdrew.
It's normal, Les. Orthodox liturgy is sung and chanted. Nothing to be
afraid of, of course.
--
Kurt Nicklas
Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 03:04:13 PM |
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On 25 Sep 2005 05:40:37 -0700, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru>
wrote:
In article <6krcj19khlo0orbr2nvmv0njai59h5h07j@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:08 GMT, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
It is not entirely true. In Tallinn (Estonia) recently, on a Sunday,
we visited some historic churches. The first was a Russian Orthodox
church. We could hardly get through the door since it was packed with
ethnic Russian worshippers taking 'mass'. (There is still a
substantial minority of Russian's living in Estonia). Some idiot down
the middle of the church was singing to them so I swiftly withdrew.
It's normal, Les. Orthodox liturgy is sung and chanted. Nothing to be
afraid of, of course.
Err I knew that and did I say I was afraid?
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 04:28:33 PM |
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In article <fi0ej11bogje3apebih654idad689k9m73@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On 25 Sep 2005 05:40:37 -0700, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru>
wrote:
In article <6krcj19khlo0orbr2nvmv0njai59h5h07j@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:08 GMT, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
It is not entirely true. In Tallinn (Estonia) recently, on a Sunday,
we visited some historic churches. The first was a Russian Orthodox
church. We could hardly get through the door since it was packed with
ethnic Russian worshippers taking 'mass'. (There is still a
substantial minority of Russian's living in Estonia). Some idiot down
the middle of the church was singing to them so I swiftly withdrew.
It's normal, Les. Orthodox liturgy is sung and chanted. Nothing to be
afraid of, of course.
Err I knew that and did I say I was afraid?
I was reading between the lines.
--
Kurt Nicklas
Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
26 Sep 2005 08:44:21 AM |
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On 25 Sep 2005 14:28:33 -0700, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru>
wrote:
In article <fi0ej11bogje3apebih654idad689k9m73@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On 25 Sep 2005 05:40:37 -0700, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru>
wrote:
In article <6krcj19khlo0orbr2nvmv0njai59h5h07j@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:08 GMT, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
It is not entirely true. In Tallinn (Estonia) recently, on a Sunday,
we visited some historic churches. The first was a Russian Orthodox
church. We could hardly get through the door since it was packed with
ethnic Russian worshippers taking 'mass'. (There is still a
substantial minority of Russian's living in Estonia). Some idiot down
the middle of the church was singing to them so I swiftly withdrew.
It's normal, Les. Orthodox liturgy is sung and chanted. Nothing to be
afraid of, of course.
Err I knew that and did I say I was afraid?
I was reading between the lines.
Well OK I admit it, I was afraid. Afraid I would not be able to
control myself from shouting out loud something about how stupid it
all was. Since I could not view the building, my reason for going in,
and it is not my business to intefere with what others do - no matter
how stupid I think it - I thought a swift withdrawl was the more
prudent and proper thing to do. I moved on to things more
interesting.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
27 Sep 2005 05:26:21 PM |
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In article <77ufj1lkmv1u6nj98pp9rqvbnmbtahungv@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On 25 Sep 2005 14:28:33 -0700, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru>
wrote:
In article <fi0ej11bogje3apebih654idad689k9m73@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On 25 Sep 2005 05:40:37 -0700, Kurt Nicklas <kurtnicklas@aport2000.ru>
wrote:
In article <6krcj19khlo0orbr2nvmv0njai59h5h07j@4ax.com>, Les Hellawell says...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:00:08 GMT, Woden <woden@charter.net> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
(Snip)
Evil itself is the original and enduring problem -- one that, as Europe
for centuries maintained and preached, reflects humanity's willing
breach of its relationship with God.
Yay. Let's here it for the Europeans who are learning to live without this
imaginary god. Let's hope that good news like this starts spreading to the
US.
It is not entirely true. In Tallinn (Estonia) recently, on a Sunday,
we visited some historic churches. The first was a Russian Orthodox
church. We could hardly get through the door since it was packed with
ethnic Russian worshippers taking 'mass'. (There is still a
substantial minority of Russian's living in Estonia). Some idiot down
the middle of the church was singing to them so I swiftly withdrew.
It's normal, Les. Orthodox liturgy is sung and chanted. Nothing to be
afraid of, of course.
Err I knew that and did I say I was afraid?
I was reading between the lines.
Well OK I admit it, I was afraid. Afraid I would not be able to
control myself from shouting out loud something about how stupid it
all was. Since I could not view the building, my reason for going in,
and it is not my business to intefere with what others do - no matter
how stupid I think it - I thought a swift withdrawl was the more
prudent and proper thing to do. I moved on to things more
interesting.
I think you're deceiving yourself.
--
Kurt Nicklas
Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit
.
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| User: "Goodness Godless" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 04:56:43 PM |
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|
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian Cults!
.
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 05:43:36 PM |
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"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
.
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| User: "Goodness Godless" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 05:50:03 PM |
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|
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jblboerspt8a8@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
I really think you have little foundations for asserting this. Not that it
matters, Christian/Islamic, it is basically the same Western Religion.
But, as in the USA, more and more people are moving away from
these transglobal cults and beginning to think for themselves.
.
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| User: "Dana" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 07:45:56 PM |
|
|
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4l70$ep0$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jblboerspt8a8@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
I really think you have little foundations for asserting this. Not that
it
matters, Christian/Islamic, it is basically the same Western Religion.
Islam is not a western religion.
.
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| User: "Goodness Godless" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 08:19:32 PM |
|
|
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jbsh6rj5ev30@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4l70$ep0$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jblboerspt8a8@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
I really think you have little foundations for asserting this. Not that
it
matters, Christian/Islamic, it is basically the same Western Religion.
Islam is not a western religion.
You have not had a look at the Koran , then? You really are brainwashed!
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
26 Sep 2005 09:01:18 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 04:19:32 +0300, "Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net>
wrote:
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jbsh6rj5ev30@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4l70$ep0$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jblboerspt8a8@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
I really think you have little foundations for asserting this. Not that
it
matters, Christian/Islamic, it is basically the same Western Religion.
Islam is not a western religion.
You have not had a look at the Koran , then? You really are brainwashed!
It wan't written by an Arab in the Middle East then? Wow I did not
know somebody had been washing my brain. I thought it was. I even
thought that the 'west' as we now know it didn't exist then!
So, the introduction to my copy of the Koran has brainwashed me into
believing Mohammed was born c 570 CE and died in 632 in Arabia.
Let's see. So, the history books have brainwashed me into believing
that In circa 600 CE, Eastern Europe was mostly part of the Christian
Eastern Roman Empire and that western and northern Europe was under
what the Christians called barbarians (the so called dark ages), the
Franks, the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths whilst the Vikings were
rampaging around the North Sea.
So what is the truth then? Mohammed was a Viking gone off course
perhaps?
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
.
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| User: "John of Aix" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
26 Sep 2005 02:26:48 PM |
|
|
Goodness Godless wrote:
"Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote in message
news:11jblboerspt8a8@corp.supernews.com...
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a
moslem state.
I really think you have little foundations for asserting this.
I don't think he has any at all in fact. Those of Muslim descent that
live in Europe, the children and grandchildren of immigrants, behave
exactly the same way as do the children and grandchildren of Christians
these days, the don't practice their religion at all other than the odd
wedding, Aïd or Christmas party.
.
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| User: "1913 Dead" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 06:40:10 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:43:36 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
All you have to do now is explain why seculars would feel a sudden
urge to submit to the will of Allah.
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
|
|
|
| User: "Dana" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 07:47:41 PM |
|
|
"1913 Dead" <zepp1913#2211finestplanet.com@> wrote in message
news:gtobj19kh2usbr25eklpu1hree0etbv07f@4ax.com...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:43:36 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
All you have to do now is explain why seculars would feel a sudden
urge to submit to the will of Allah.
As the moslems start to control the governments because of their increasing
population in European countries, they will enact laws that allow sharia
law.
"'I'm not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I'm concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans
instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
|
|
|
| User: "1913 Dead" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
24 Sep 2005 08:19:35 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 16:47:41 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"1913 Dead" <zepp1913#2211finestplanet.com@> wrote in message
news:gtobj19kh2usbr25eklpu1hree0etbv07f@4ax.com...
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:43:36 -0800, "Dana" <whoya@whoya.com> wrote:
"Goodness Godless" <cla@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:dh4i2v$24a$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1127594940.797540.152390@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/billmurchison/bm20050712.shtml
Back to first principles
Bill Murchison
<snip copy of infantile article>
Yes, few people in Europe have much time for your Islamo/Christian
Cults!
Actually Islam is increasing quite rapidly in Europe. It will soon
outnumber
the remaining Christians and Catholics. Europe is turning into a moslem
state.
All you have to do now is explain why seculars would feel a sudden
urge to submit to the will of Allah.
As the moslems start to control the governments because of their increasing
population in European countries, they will enact laws that allow sharia
law.
They are about 4% of the population across Europe.
The remaining Christians are a far bigger threat.
"'I'm not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I'm concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans
instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
"'I’m not meeting with that goddamned *****,' Bush screamed at aides
who suggested he meet with Cindy Sheehan, the war-protesting mother
whose son died in Iraq. 'She can go to hell as far as I’m concerned!'"
--Putsch, a decompensating drunk
"Grover Norquist couldn't drown the government, so he drowned New Orleans instead."
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_news
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/zepps_essays
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
.
|
|
|
| User: "Kurt Nicklas" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 07:21:31 AM |
|
|
In article <1oubj15d91a7j930poh4u5fa1k4lults0k@4ax.com>, 1913 Dead says...
As the moslems start to control the governments because of their increasing
population in European countries, they will enact laws that allow sharia
law.
They are about 4% of the population across Europe.
Cite? And please don't say, "google it". That doesn't work.
The remaining Christians are a far bigger threat.
Only to decompensating degenerates like you, Greywolf-Jamieson.
--
Kurt Nicklas
Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit
.
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| User: "Johnny Asia poki_pongo at yahoo.com" |
|
| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 08:25:23 AM |
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Is God Fully Gone From Europe?
Every year around Thanksgiving time in churches across America,
preachers are heard to say: "The Pilgrims brought God to these
shores". Judging by the atrocious behavior of the Pilgrims, I'd have
to say that God must have hitched a ride back to England shortly after
He arrived here.
The following text is from the introduction of
a sermon given by Robert Cushman to the Plymouth church on December
12, 1621.
http://members.aol.com/calebj/sermon.html
"And though when we came first into the Country, we were few, and many
of us were sick, and many died by reason of the cold and wet, it being
the depth of Winter, and we having no houses, nor shelter, yet when
there was not six able persons among us, and that they came daily to
us by hundreds, with their Sachems or Kings, and might in one hour
have made a dispatch of us, yet such a fear was upon them, as that
they never offered us the least injury in word or deed. And by reason
of one Tisquanto, that lives amongst us, that can speak English, we
have daily Commerce with their Kings, and can know what is done or
intended towards us among the Savages; Also we can acquaint them with
our courses and purposes, both human and religious. And the greatest
Commander of the Country, call'd Massasoit, cometh often to visit us,
tho' he lives 50 miles from us, often sends us Presents, he having
with many other of their Governors, promised, yea, subscribed
Obedience to our Sovereign Lord King James, and for his cause to spend
both strength and life."
When the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, Massachusetts, in late 1620,
they were ill-equipped for survival in their new homeland. Grain
brought on the Mayflower wasn't suited for planting in the rocky
American soil. Planting techniques used in England didn't adapt well
on this side of the Atlantic either. But, perhaps most devastating,
the harsh winter reduced the number of settlers by half.
Invaluable help came from Squanto, also known as Tisquantum, a
Wampanoag, who taught the Pilgrims techniques for planting and
fertilizing that were appropriate for the rugged surroundings. With
some seeds provided by Squanto, the Pilgrims planted corn, wheat, and
barley in the spring of 1621.
By fall, realizing that their first harvest of corn and barley would
be plentiful, Governor William Bradford declared a day of
thanksgiving. At the three-day feast, the 50 settlers hosted 90
Wampanoag, including their chief, Massasoit. As was the Wampanoag's
custom, they brought venison as a contribution to the meal. Not only
was this festival a way to thank the Wampanoag, but it also served to
boost the morale of the remaining settlers.
Most of the details of that thanksgiving come from a letter written by
Edward Winslow, a 25-year-old Pilgrim who was the colony's ambassador
to the Indians. From that letter, we know that Governor Bradford "sent
four men on fowling, that so we might after a more special manner
rejoice together." Chief Massassoit came "with some 90 men." For three
days, the Pilgrims and Indians "entertained and feasted."
"We have found the Indians very faithful in their covenant of peace
with us, very loving, and ready to pleasure us. We often go to them,
and they come to us.... We can walk as peaceably and safely in the
woods as in the highways of England. We entertain them in our houses,
and they give us venison... They are a people without any religion or
knowledge of any God, yet very trusty, quick of apprehension,
ripe-witted, just." - Pilgrim Edward Winslow, letter to a friend in
England (1621)
THE PILGRIMS
PURITAN DOOMSDAY CULT PLUNDERS PARADISE
John Winthrop, the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony said in a
sermon preached aboard the Arabella, en route to the New World in
1630:
"to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God" - then God
"shall make us a praise and a glory, that men shall say of succeeding
plantations: "The Lord make it like that of New England!"
Shortly after this moving sermon, the Puritans dealt treacherously
with their benefactors, the Native Americans, who welcomed them and
helped them to survive their first years here.
The Puritans massacred a neighboring town of friendly Pequots in 1637,
setting fire to the village and slaughtering the villagers as they
tried to escape the flames. Some 900 men, women and children were
murdered by the same Puritans who claimed that their settlement was to
be "the model of Christian charity".
One of the Pilgrim officers of that expedition gave insight into the
Pequots they encountered:
"The Indians spying of us came running in multitudes along the water
side, crying 'What cheer, Englishmen, what cheer, what do you come
for?'. They not thinking we intended war went on cheerfully."
Historian Francis Jennings wrote of Captain John Mason's attack:
"Mason proposed to avoid attacking Pequot warriors, which would have
overtaxed his unseasoned, unreliable troops. Battle, as such, was not
his purpose. Battle is only one of the ways to destroy an enemy's will
to fight. Massacre can accomplish the same end with less risk, and
Mason had determined that massacre would be his objective."
In Howard Zinns' book, A People's History of the United States, one of
the Pilgrims on the expedition is quoted as saying:
"The Captain also said, We must Burn Them; and immediately stepping
into the wigwam....brought out a Fire Brand, and putting it into the
Matts with which they were covered, set the Wigwams on Fire."
William Bradford, in his History of the Plymouth Plantation, described
the carnage:
"Those that scaped the fire were slaine with the sword; some hewed to
peeces, others rune throw with their rapiers, so as they were quickly
dispatche, and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed
about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying
in the fyer, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible
was the stincke and sente there of, but the victory seemed a sweet
sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought
so wonderfully for them, thus to inclose their enemise in their hands,
and gave them so speedy a victory over so proud and insulting an
enimie."
Cotton Mather, one of the more odious and obdurate Pilgrim leaders,
wrote:
"It was supposed that no less than 600 souls were brought down to Hell
that day".
Mather, in his Annals of Christ in America, wrote:
"I do, with all conscience of truth,...report the wonderful displays
of His infinite power, wisdom, goodness, and faithfulness, wherewith
His divine providence hath irradiated an Indian wilderness".
Indeed!
Having laid down their weapons and accepted Christianity, the Pequots
were rewarded with a vicious and cowardly slaughter by their new
"brothers in Christ".
Francis Jennings said:
"The terror was very real among the Indians. They drew lessons from
the Peqout War:(1) that the Englishmen's most solemn pledge would be
broken whenever obligation conflicted with advantage; (2) that the
English way of war had no limit of scruple and mercy".
The Pilgrims justified their conquest by appealing to the Bible,
Psalms 2:8:
"Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."
The use of force to take this "inheritance" was justified by citing
Romans 13:2:
"Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of
God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
William Bradford, called a man of "more than ordinary piety, wisdom
and courage" by no less an authority on Godliness than Cotton Mather,
wrote in 1642:
"Wickedness Breaks Forth - Marvelous it may be to see and consider how
some kind of wickedness did grow and break forth here, in a land where
the same was so much witnessed against and so narrowly looked unto,
and severely punished when it was known, as in no place more, or so
much, that I have known or heard of; insomuch that they have been
somewhat censured even by moderate and good men for their severity in
punishments. And yet all this could not suppress the breaking out of
sundry notorious sins.. Especially drunkenness and uncleanness. Not
only incontinency between persons unmarried, for which many both men
and women have been punished sharply enough, but some married persons
also. But that which is worse, even sodomy and buggery (things fearful
to name) have broke forth in this land oftener than once. I say it may
justly be marveled at and cause us to fear and tremble at the
considration of our corrupt natures, which are so hardly bridled,
subdued and mortified.....But one reason may be that the Devil may
carry a greater spite against the churches of Christ and the gospel
here,....I would rather think thus, than that Satan hath more power in
these heathen lands, as some have thought, than in Christian nations,
especially over God's servants in them."
The twisted theology of these so-called men of God is indicative of a
pervasive sickness of their minds and wretchedness in their souls.
Their confused and tortured thought processes made it possible for
them , in their warped minds neccesary for them, to inflict the "will
of God" on the unsuspecting Indians and whoever else opposed their
harsh doctrine and unforgiving authority. Considering that the Pequots
were slaughtered in 1637, and that the "Wickedness" wasn't considered
to "break forth" until 1642 , shows just how confused and contorted in
their thinking, and in their interpretation of godliness, these
vicious scoundrels really were.
Roger Williams, who was one of the more enlightened souls among the
Pilgrims, was banished from Massachuetts for his "radical" notions
about Christianity. Williams recalled his banishment:
"When I was unkindly and unchristianly, as I believe, driven from my
house and land and wife and children (in the midst of a New England
winter....)"
Williams went on to found Providence, Rhode Island, which became the
chief refuge for freethinkers in New England. Williams was better
inclined toward the Indians than most. Writing about the Indians he
said:
"All men of conscience or prudence ply to windward, to maintain their
(the Indians) wars to be defensive."
The English drive for wars of conquest was said by Williams to be
driven by:
"a depraved appetite after the great vanities, dreams and shadows of
this vanishing life, great portions of land, land in this wilderness,
as if men were in as great necessity and danger for want of great
portions of land, as poor, hungry, thirsty seamen have, after a sick
and stormy, a long and starving passage. This is one of the gods of
New England, which the living and most high Eternal will destroy and
famish."
The Puritans, who according to the revisionist propaganda found in
American school textbooks were fleeing religious intolerance, showed
no tolerance for those who dared go against their severe doctrine. The
peace-loving Quakers were imprisoned, banished, whipped, had their
tongues cut out or were hanged for offending the sensibilities of
these so-called seekers of religious freedom. Cotton Mather wrote to
the captain of a ship, proposing that a ship full of Quakers be
scuttled at sea.
The Puritans practiced human sacrifice in order to appease their angry
God. When crop failures, disease, famine and other natural disasters
occured, the ignorant and extremely superstitious Pilgrims took these
events as a sign of God's displeasure . Unfortunate and innocent souls
were accused of witchcraft, blamed for the various calamities, and
were then cruelly tortured to death by their bloodthirsty
inquisitionists. One of the alleged witches was 5 years old, a special
set of handcuffs had to be made to fit her little wrists.
The Pilgrims felt justified in all their evil deeds because they were
fighting supposed "red devils" and "emissaries of Satan". Their
fanaticism was based on Fundamentalist dogma, and was fueled by the
same siege mentality, mass hysteria and paranoia found in all
dangerous cults. The Bible is used by such groups to enable the
dysfunctional need of their leaders to always have the last word in an
argument, the Bible supposedly providing the final authority. The
"Word of God" grants the ultimate means of control to the group
leaders over their flock of followers, who are referred to as "sheep".
The so-called "Good Book" is brandished as an instrument of
destruction whenever justification for murder is required, an
instrument of control whenever fear is needed to keep the subjects
properly disciplined.
In the long history of fanaticism and violence perpetrated by
religious zealots, the hypocrisy and utter treachery of the Puritans
stands as a testament to intolerance , avarice and ethnic cleansing.
Their fearful self-loathing, their revulsion and contempt for Nature,
their abject terror of the wrath of an angry God and their hatred of
their fellow man combined to create a murderous frenzy of genocide and
mayhem.
Not even Charles Manson and Jim Jones combined could compare with that
murderous Doomsday cult - the Pilgrims.
Within an hour, 400-700 men, women, and children are put to the sword
or burned to death as the English torch the village. Unfamiliar with
war targeted at civilians, for the first time Native Tribes experience
the total devastating effects of warfare practiced by Europeans.
The battle cuts the heart from the Pequot people and scatters them
across what is now southern New England, Long Island, and Upstate New
York. Over the next few months, remaining resistors are either tracked
down and killed or enslaved. The name "Pequot" is outlawed by the
English. The Puritan justification for the action is simply stated by
Captain Underhill, one of the English commanders, in his journal,
Newes from America:
It may be demanded, Why should you be so furious? Should not
Christians have more mercy and compassion? Sometimes the Scripture
declareth women and children must perish with their parents. Sometimes
the case alters, but we will not dispute it now. We had sufficient
light from the word of God for our proceedings.
Read more about The Pequot War
http://www.pequotwar.com/index_files/history1.htm
Read more about the Pequot War at this excellent site:
PEQUOT HISTORY http://www.dickshovel.com/peq.html
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Ignorance is an evil weed, which dictators may cultivate among their
dupes, but which no democracy can afford among its citizens."
- William H. Beveridge, 1944
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
Listen to Spanish Dervish by Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
.
|
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is God Fully Gone From Europe? |
25 Sep 2005 12:40:25 PM |
|
|
Johnny Asia:
No doubt unintentionally you have merely copied nonsense from other
sites (copyrighted or not), typical of much circulating internet
material. Many of the inaccurate claims in your article are
specifically answered in my article: Thanksgiving on the Net: Roast
Bull with Cranberry Sauce, which is published online at:
http://www.sail1620.org/discover_feature_thanksgiving_on_the_net_roast_bull_with_cranberry_sauce_part_1.shtml
sincerely,
Jeremy Bangs
Johnny Asia wrote:
Is God Fully Gone From Europe?
Every year around Thanksgiving time in churches across America,
preachers are heard to say: "The Pilgrims brought God to these
shores". Judging by the atrocious behavior of the Pilgrims, I'd have
to say that God must have hitched a ride back to England shortly after
He arrived here.
The following text is from the introduction of
a sermon given by Robert Cushman to the Plymouth church on December
12, 1621.
http://members.aol.com/calebj/sermon.html
"And though when we came first into the Country, we were few, and many
of us were sick, and many died by reason of the cold and wet, it being
the depth of Winter, and we having no houses, nor shelter, yet when
there was not six able persons among us, and that they came daily to
us by hundreds, with their Sachems or Kings, and might in one hour
have made a dispatch of us, yet such a fear was upon them, as that
they never offered us the least injury in word or deed. And by reason
of one Tisquanto, that lives amongst us, that can speak English, we
have daily Commerce with their Kings, and can know what is done or
intended towards us among the Savages; Also we can acquaint them with
our courses and purposes, both human and religious. And the greatest
Commander of the Country, call'd Massasoit, cometh often to visit us,
tho' he lives 50 miles from us, often sends us Presents, he having
with many other of their Governors, promised, yea, subscribed
Obedience to our Sovereign Lord King James, and for his cause to spend
both strength and life."
When the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth, Massachusetts, in late 1620,
they were ill-equipped for survival in their new homeland. Grain
brought on the Mayflower wasn't suited for planting in the rocky
American soil. Planting techniques used in England didn't adapt well
on this side of the Atlantic either. But, perhaps most devastating,
the harsh winter reduced the number of settlers by half.
Invaluable help came from Squanto, also known as Tisquantum, a
Wampanoag, who taught the Pilgrims techniques for planting and
fertilizing that were appropriate for the rugged surroundings. With
some seeds provided by Squanto, the Pilgrims planted corn, wheat, and
barley in the spring of 1621.
By fall, realizing that their first harvest of corn and barley would
be plentiful, Governor William Bradford declared a day of
thanksgiving. At the three-day feast, the 50 settlers hosted 90
Wampanoag, including their chief, Massasoit. As was the Wampanoag's
custom, they brought venison as a contribution to the meal. Not only
was this festival a way to thank the Wampanoag, but it also served to
boost the morale of the remaining settlers.
Most of the details of that thanksgiving come from a letter written by
Edward Winslow, a 25-year-old Pilgrim who was the colony's ambassador
to the Indians. From that letter, we know that Governor Bradford "sent
four men on fowling, that so we might after a more special manner
rejoice together." Chief Massassoit came "with some 90 men." For three
days, the Pilgrims and Indians "entertained and feasted."
"We have found the Indians very faithful in their covenant of peace
with us, very loving, and ready to pleasure us. We often go to them,
and they come to us.... We can walk as peaceably and safely in the
woods as in the highways of England. We entertain them in our houses,
and they give us venison... They are a people without any religion or
knowledge of any God, yet very trusty, quick of apprehension,
ripe-witted, just." - Pilgrim Edward Winslow, letter to a friend in
England (1621)
THE PILGRIMS
PURITAN DOOMSDAY CULT PLUNDERS PARADISE
John Winthrop, the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony said in a
sermon preached aboard the Arabella, en route to the New World in
1630:
"to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God" - then God
"shall make us a praise and a glory, that men shall say of succeeding
plantations: "The Lord make it like that of New England!"
Shortly after this moving sermon, the Puritans dealt treacherously
with their benefactors, the Native Americans, who welcomed them and
helped them to survive their first years here.
The Puritans massacred a neighboring town of friendly Pequots in 1637,
setting fire to the village and slaughtering the villagers as they
tried to escape the flames. Some 900 men, women and children were
murdered by the same Puritans who claimed that their settlement was to
be "the model of Christian charity".
One of the Pilgrim officers of that expedition gave insight into the
Pequots they encountered:
"The Indians spying of us came running in multitudes along the water
side, crying 'What cheer, Englishmen, what cheer, what do you come
for?'. They not thinking we intended war went on cheerfully."
Historian Francis Jennings wrote of Captain John Mason's attack:
"Mason proposed to avoid attacking Pequot warriors, which would have
overtaxed his unseasoned, unreliable troops. Battle, as such, was not
his purpose. Battle is only one of the ways to destroy an enemy's will
to fight. Massacre can accomplish the same end with less risk, and
Mason had determined that massacre would be his objective."
In Howard Zinns' book, A People's History of the United States, one of
the Pilgrims on the expedition is quoted as saying:
"The Captain also said, We must Burn Them; and immediately stepping
into the wigwam....brought out a Fire Brand, and putting it into the
Matts with which they were covered, set the Wigwams on Fire."
William Bradford, in his History of the Plymouth Plantation, described
the carnage:
"Those that scaped the fire were slaine with the sword; some hewed to
peeces, others rune throw with their rapiers, so as they were quickly
dispatche, and very few escaped. It was conceived they thus destroyed
about 400 at this time. It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying
in the fyer, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible
was the stincke and sente there of, but the victory seemed a sweet
sacrifice, and they gave the prayers thereof to God, who had wrought
so wonderfully for them, thus to inclose their enemise in their hands,
and gave them so speedy a victory over so proud and insulting an
enimie."
Cotton Mather, one of the more odious and obdurate Pilgrim leaders,
wrote:
"It was supposed that no less than 600 souls were brought down to Hell
that day".
Mather, in his Annals of Christ in America, wrote:
"I do, with all conscience of truth,...report the wonderful displays
of His infinite power, wisdom, goodness, and faithfulness, wherewith
His divine providence hath irradiated an Indian wilderness".
Indeed!
Having laid down their weapons and accepted Christianity, the Pequots
were rewarded with a vicious and cowardly slaughter by their new
"brothers in Christ".
Francis Jennings said:
"The terror was very real among the Indians. They drew lessons from
the Peqout War:(1) that the Englishmen's most solemn pledge would be
broken whenever obligation conflicted with advantage; (2) that the
English way of war had no limit of scruple and mercy".
The Pilgrims justified their conquest by appealing to the Bible,
Psalms 2:8:
"Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."
The use of force to take this "inheritance" was justified by citing
Romans 13:2:
"Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of
God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."
William Bradford, called a man of "more than ordinary piety, wisdom
and courage" by no less an authority on Godliness than Cotton Mather,
wrote in 1642:
"Wickedness Breaks Forth - Marvelous it may be to see and consider how
some kind of wickedness did grow and break forth here, in a land where
the same was so much witnessed against and so narrowly looked unto,
and severely punished when it was known, as in no place more, or so
much, that I have known or heard of; insomuch that they have been
somewhat censured even by moderate and good men f | | | | | | | | |