Religions > Atheism > Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Apollonius" |
| Date: |
01 Aug 2003 04:32:57 PM |
| Object: |
Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
Harry Potter and the Future of Europe
By Jeff Fountain
Arguably the greatest phenomenon of the new millennium so far is a
nerdish schoolboy named Harry Potter. This pre-adolescent orphan has
taken the literary world by storm in what Time Magazine calls 'one of
the most bizarre and surreal' success stories in the annals of
publishing.
Adult best-seller lists have become dominated by four titles authored
(for children!) by the previously unknown single-mother, J. K. Rowling,
catapulting her name among such popular giants as Stephen King, Tom
Clancy and John Grisham.
On a recent visit to New Zealand, my wife and I encountered bookstores
throwing Harry Potter parties ('bring your own broom') throughout the
country. The release of the fourth HP title triggered a price war that
waged in the headlines for days.
Back in the Netherlands, we witnessed the same mania with bookstores -
and even the historic church in Amsterdam where Rembrandt is buried,
the Westerkerk - jammed with children dressed as witches, spellbound by
Harry Potter readings at the midnight hour.
The commercial success has been such that a new proverb could be added
to the English language: 'A Rowling tome gathers no loss.' And that
would be true for other tongues too. Harry's adventures are being
translated into many languages, major and minor, including Icelandic,
Basque, Korean, Chinese and Serbo-Croatian!
American humorist, Dave Barry, protested in a recent tongue-in-cheek
column that he was "not jealous of the woman who writes the Harry
Potter books. It does not bother me that her most recent book, Harry
Potter and the Enormous Royalty Check, has already become the best-
selling book in world history, beating out her previous book, Harry
Potter Purchases Microsoft."
Perfectly innocent
Before I had ever read a Harry Potter book, some of my Christian
friends had told me how witty, richly imaginative and full of suspense
and emotional realism the books were.
However, a rather bizarre and surreal experience I had had myself not
so long ago, with a woman who herself could have stepped straight out
of the pages of a Harry Potter novel, had aroused in me a shrewd
suspicion that this phenomenon could be a significant indicator of the
future of our western culture.
But firstly, just in case you've been on a desert island for the past
year, let me explain some salient biographical facts about our hero.
The fictional Harry Potter is orphaned as an infant when his wizard
parents are murdered by an evil lord. He is left on a doorstep to be
raised by his aunt and uncle in the world of 'Muggles' or non-magical
folk, who hold a 'repressive, medieval attitude' toward magic. Yet it
has been predicted that there "will be books written about Harry -
every child in our (magical) world will know his name" (a prediction
moving uncanningly towards fulfilment in the 'Muggles' world too!)
Harry's break comes when he later attends the Howarts School of
Witchcraft and Wizardry, preparing him to enter into his true spiritual
identity and destiny. On his eleventh birthday, Harry is transported to
a parallel magic world, much more exciting and captivating than
Muggle 'Flatland'. And so our Harry - and each of his young readers -
is initiated into an intriguing world of transfiguration, divination,
broomstick flying, dungeons, poltergeists and headless ghosts.
Spells are also part of the fascination Harry Potter's magic world
holds for his young fans. Browsing through a booklet entitled, Why kids
like Harry Potter , I read of a young girl who said she too would love
to be able to cast spells on all the bullies at school, and that her
favourite character was the the poltergeist.
So, is this just perfectly innocent childhood imagination? After all,
Christian fantasy writers like C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien drew on
themes of magic, witches and wizards. Well-known evangelical writer and
speaker, Chuck Colson, told his radio audience that 'the magic in these
books is purely mechanical, as opposed to occultic. That is, Harry and
his friends cast spells, read crystal balls, and turn themselves into
animals - but they don't make contact with a supernatural world.'
A Christianity Today editorial (Jan 10, 2000) declared that Harry was
definitely on the side of light fighting the 'dark powers', and
eulogised the series as a 'Book of Virtues'.
But these comments from usually reliable evangelical sources seem to me
to underestimate the significant shift in the 'plausibility
structures' - what people consider to be plausible or believable - that
has coincided with the millennium turnover.
When Tolkien and Lewis used supernatural themes last century, few
believed literally in the reality of witches and wizards. They wrote in
an 'age of innocence' (or of unbelief) about such things. Readers
understood the tales to be allegories of spiritual truths.
But through the cheerful normalcy with which Harry experiences the
magical realm, is not Rowling communicating to her global audience of
young readers something much more? Namely, that witchcraft, magic and
wizardry are normal and good. Anyone who does not accept this obviously
is still captive in the dysfunctional world of 'Muggles'.
Today's readers are much more likely to accept the literal reality of
the spiritual realities behind crystal balls and spells. Perhaps they
don't believe in demons or spirits, but in some kind of spiritual
energy or force at work.
As for changing into animals, is this not making contact with the
supernatural? I happened to catch a tv film recently in England about a
girl who believed she changed into a wolf sometimes at night and
attacked people. Afraid of the harm she might do in wolf form, she
eventually found a believer in her story, who helped her get
permanently released as a wolf on a secret reservation in Scotland.
This new expression of an ancient shamanistic phenomenon certainly
stretched my 'plausibility structure', but obviously had an audience
sufficient to warrant it being broadcast on British television.
While using techniques of magic and mythical creatures, Christian
fantasy writers like Lewis and Tolkien develop their imaginary worlds
within their own personal commitment to orthodox Christian belief in a
sovereign God. Rowling does not share that commitment. Although she
denies any personal belief in the magic her books portray, she still
tells her readers, "It's important to remember that we all have magic
inside of us."
Unlike these Christian fantasies, Harry Potter is a post-Christian
creation set within an occult cosmology. And his phenomenal popularity
among young and old signals where our western culture seems to be
headed.
Which brings us to my own personal encounter, on a trip to Bosnia, with
a woman named Danica. Frankly, Danica rattled my cage. She shook my
presuppositions. She challenged some of my comfortable beliefs about
God. She forced me to do some hard thinking about the spiritual realm.
And she awakened me to a likely and unsettling scenario for the future
of the west.
Danica and I were the only English-speakers among half-a-dozen
passengers stranded at the airport in Budapest, after missing our
connection to Sarajevo. The next available flight would not be for two
days! So we were bundled off in a minivan to a hotel. En route we
inquired of each other's business in Bosnia. I was to teach in our YWAM
DTS in the war-torn city. Danica explained that she conducted therapy
groups for Bosnian women who had been raped or lost their menfolk
during the recent war. I was intrigued by this very practical hands-on
reconciliation work, so we agreed to talk more over a meal in the hotel
dining room.
As the conversation unfolded, Danica explained that she was into the
pre-Christian beliefs of Old Europe. She handed me her card. On the
reverse side was listed a number of tours she conducted to ancient
sites including Malta, the labyrinth of Knossus in Crete, or to Celtic
sites in Ireland with the Sisters of Wisdom, staying at places with
intriguing names like the Inn of the Witch.
She then described herself as a pagan, Jungian (disciple of Carl
Jung), feminist, archetypal psychotherapist!
Suddenly I felt I was getting out of my depth! I began to doubt the
wisdom of pursuing this conversation much further. But Danica was
getting into her element.
"Old Europe enjoyed a golden age of peace as a matriarchal society,"
she explained enthusiastically, "worshipping the Mother Goddess." But
the advent of the bronze-age sky gods, including the Biblical Yahweh,
had ended this harmonious age and the patriarchal age of violence and
gender-suppression began.
Old European societies, she continued, had deep insights into spiritual
realities which had been smothered by later patriarchal eras. They had
even known the exact locations of sacred centres, dimensional
thresholds or gateways into the other-worlds or parallel universes...
Despite a degree in history, I had apparently missed this part of my
education. Growing up in New Zealand, the classical period had not
appealed to me as being particularly relevant to modern life and times.
I tried to assess this woman sitting opposite me. She was urbane,
articulate, self-assured, well-read, very contemporary - and yet was
deadly serious about everything she was telling me. She was the first
devout pagan, packaged as a civilised, sophisticated westerner, I had
had a conversation with. She was a real believer in the deities of
polytheism!? What sort of weird, esoteric, fringe person was she? I
wondered.
And what was I doing listening to her gobbledegook?
"Danica, who do you think Jesus of Nazareth was?" I asked, trying to
steer the conversation towards my world.
"There you go with your patriarchal 'either-or' thinking!" she smiled
indulgently.
I was encountering a disdain shared by mystics towards the possibility
of historical persons and events revealing eternal truths.
As I retired to my hotel room, my head was buzzing with questions. What
was this all about? Was this a diabolical trap? Or could it be a divine
encounter? Was there any truth in Danica's analysis of Europe's past?
As I lay on my bed, I traced a mental map of our conversation covering
subjects we ranged over and questions raised - a map I would later
reproduce on paper in Sarajevo.
We were poles apart in worldviews. Yet something about Danica's
perspective rang true. What was it? Unlike so many Europeans, Danica
strongly affirmed the spiritual realm, and was not impressed with the
pursuit of the western materialistic dream. That in itself was
refreshing. We shared a common understanding of the reality of the
spiritual - if not a common understanding of the truth about that
realm.
She was concerned about the environment, about realising one's full
potential, about peace and justice, about the balance between being and
doing, about gender issues - questions that ought to concern biblical
Christians.
Yet her vision for a New Europe would be that of a revived Old Europe.
Old, animistic, pagan Europe - in a new sophisticated form!
Vaguely I began to recall something Leslie Newbigin had predicted about
Europe. Newbigin, a former missionary bishop in India, challenged
western church leaders to recognise where European society was
heading. "What made Europe 'Europe'?" he would often ask. The ethnic,
religious and linguistic roots of the Europeans were all eastern. Yet
somehow Europe had developed an identity distinct from Asia. It had
became known as The Continent - when it was the one 'continent' that
was not a true continent! It was simply the western peninsula of the
Eurasian landmass.
So what then had made Europe 'Europe'? The simple answer, Newbigin
said, was that about 2000 years ago, messengers came to Europe with a
Book that told a Story that brought Hope - and transformed European
society.
But, he warned, if Europeans rejected the Book, forgot the Story and
lost the Hope, Europe simply would merge back into its eastern roots.
Europe would become re-Oriented!
Was this then what this encounter was all about?! Perhaps Danica was
not just some strange leftover from Europe's pre-Christian past. Maybe
she represented a very likely future for Europe - and the west in
general! She could be a preview of tomorrow's Europe!
Sleep now did not come easily. At my bedside, the cover of a tourist
magazine caught my eye: "Visit the labyrinth of Buda Hill" Labyrinth??!
Danica had just talked about a labyrinth - in Crete. I doubt I had ever
had a conversation with anyone about a labyrinth before in my life, and
now here was a magazine in my room telling about a labyrinth just down
the road! What sort of coincidence was this? Jung would probably have
called this a 'synchronicity'. This was a little spooky. What was going
on here?
I hardly knew what a labyrinth was, other than an underground maze of
some sort. But the article described labyrinths as pre-literate
poetical and philosophical statements about the meaning of life. They
expressed a worldview. I was intrigued and apprehensive at the same
time.
The next morning, Danica was equally surprised to hear about this
labyrinth, this being her first visit to Budapest. We had time to kill,
so I suggested we meet that afternoon on Buda Hill to explore this new
discovery.
So later that day, we descended into a network of underground tunnels
which had been recently renovated into a fascinating museum tracing the
history of the Hungarian people.
Danica immediately found herself at home in the first section of the
labyrinth, portraying the world of the pagan Old Europeans, worshipping
and appeasing gods and goddesses. Shaman figures and sacrifice stones
were part of this animistic worldview, which believed the physical or
natural world to be 'animated' by the spiritual or supernatural world,
as a hand might 'animate' a glove. Animism was Europe's original belief
system. Like the Greeks, Romans, Germans, Celts, Norsemen and the
Slavs, the early Hungarians too had been animists.
The labyrinthine passages then led us into the Christian phase of
Hungarian life, when life and society was ordered by Theism , the
belief in a personal, infinite, sovereign Creator God.
Lastly we found ourselves in a satirical section on the modern era of
homo consumus , the product of the age of Materialism which followed
the Enlightenment.
At a crossroads in the labyrinth, we met a group of lost, giggling
schoolgirls. They couldn't read their map and in desperation asked us
the way out.
What a picture of today's European, I thought. Lost in history's maze
without a map! No Book. No Story. No Hope.
After we ourselves emerged into the Budapest sunlight from the
labyrinth, Danica led me across the square to the St Mathias Cathedral,
also on Buda Hill. Although this was her first visit there, she began
to explain knowledgeably to me item after item of pagan symbolism built
into this historic place of Christian worship. Carl Jung's observation
sprang to mind: 'Europe is a cathedral built on pagan foundations'.
By now, I was awakening to a new realisation of Europe's - and the
west's - possible future. The labyrinth had led us through each of the
major worldviews, depicting European progress from Animism to Theism
and then on to Materialism .
But westerners today were at a crossroads, rejecting Materialism as a
world view. For the first time in history, westerners had tried all
three options in turn - and then rejected each of them. Where could
they turn to now?
Unless there was a revival of Biblical Theism, the future would be
Animism in a new 21st century guise.
Newbigin was right. My encounter with Danica was opening my eyes to the
spiritual realities of post-Christian Europe, a Europe that could
increasingly resemble pre-Christian Old Europe - a Europe where Harry
Potter would feel very much at home.
Over the following weeks and months I found myself constantly wrestling
with the issues raised by my Budapest experience. I took down books
that had gathered dust on my shelves for years and discovered a new
relevancy in their pages. 'The Dawning of the Pagan Moon' by David
Burnett, was once such title. I was intrigued to discover that an
encounter with a white witch had led the author to research the revival
of pagan spirituality in England.
My old dog-eared copy of Francis Schaeffer's classic on
epistimology, 'He is there and he is not silent' , triggered the
formulation in my mind of a 'reality matrix' . Schaeffer argues that
the broad worldview options available are very few. They are shaped by
our answers to two basic questions. One, did creation have a personal
or impersonal origin? and two, is ultimate reality finite or infinite?
These two questions can be sketched as a matrix of two intersecting
axes: the finite/infinite axis, and the personal/impersonal axis. Thus
we are offered four alternatives:
+ the finite-impersonal option of atheism or materialism - only matter
matters;
+ the infinite-impersonal option of pantheism - everything is God (what
Schaeffer calls 'paneverythingism'), as found in Hinduism and much of
the New Age;
+ the finite-personal option of polytheism - many finite deities, as in
pre-Christian European religions, Danica's Old Europe; and
+ the infinite-personal God of the Bible: theism .
In the light of my recent experience I began to see that the western
axis has been that of atheism-theism , while the eastern worldview
belongs to the polytheism-pantheism axis. With many in the west
rejecting both theism and materialism, a new animism was on the rise,
mixing and matching elements from both polytheism and pantheism. What
other options are available?
But of course, we live in post-modern times, when all "-isms" are
considered "was-ms"! Meta-narratives, worldviews or broad explanations
of reality, are rejected. This reality matrix itself is a 'modern'
rational construct, irrelevant for post-moderns, who simply shrug their
shoulders and say, "So what?" But the post-modern mentality fits the
irrationality of the pantheism/ polytheism fusion of contradictory
concepts very well., and provides a fertile breeding ground for a new
pagan spirituality.
Unsettling? Yes, especially when we recall that the last occasion when
paganism made major inroads into European culture was under Hitler! He
took the ancient Germanic gods seriously; his henchmen Goebbels and
Himmler could have been graduates of a School of Witchcraft and
Wizardry themselves!
But God is not surprised. This is nothing new for Him. The Bible
unfolded against this sort of animistic, pagan background. Moses and
Elijah confronted pagan gods. Paul spoke the gospel into Athen's pagan,
animistic world. The Irish Celts joyfully transmitted the good news
from one pagan people to another, and evangelised much of medieval
Europe.
It's been done before. What was their secret then? How can it happen
again?
Perhaps the Harry Potter books will help us wake up to our need to
learn to communicate God's truth in new ways into a new pagan
spirituality.
Jeff Fountain
www.relay-network.org/articles/fountain4.htm
--
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| User: "coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
10 Aug 2003 07:15:25 PM |
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Right. But it's the extremists from various persuasions who seem to
be setting the agenda in many areas today, whether by pushing for the
so what are your politics
are you an extremist who demands everyone agrees with you
or do you deal with people who think very differently
but want to acheive the same actions
Dogmatic thinkers aren't stupid. Many of them are quite clever (St.
Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Marx, Lenin, Luther, Phillip Johnson,
etc.). At least they seem clever to me, and I've been studying them
for many years. But they are reasoning from false premises.
Many people, when they confront such mindsets, which seem to be immune
to empirical facts or logical reasoning, due to the other party
who decides what are facts
do you know what logical reasoning is
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| User: "darth_versive" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
11 Aug 2003 10:13:39 AM |
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(coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges) wrote in message news:<mair_fheal-1008031715250001@c113.ppp.tsoft.com>...
Right. But it's the extremists from various persuasions who seem to
be setting the agenda in many areas today, whether by pushing for the
so what are your politics
are you an extremist who demands everyone agrees with you
No. You should have read my whole post before you asked this
question. I said:
"People should, after all, have the freedom to believe such things if
they want to..."
I don't "demand" anything from anybody.
or do you deal with people who think very differently
but want to acheive the same actions
I deal with lots of people. Among them are those who think very
differently but want to acheive the same goals.
Dogmatic thinkers aren't stupid. Many of them are quite clever (St.
Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Marx, Lenin, Luther, Phillip Johnson,
etc.). At least they seem clever to me, and I've been studying them
for many years. But they are reasoning from false premises.
Many people, when they confront such mindsets, which seem to be immune
to empirical facts or logical reasoning, due to the other party
who decides what are facts
We each decide for ourselves. I prefer to generally follow the
consensus of the scientific community where facts I have not directly
observed are at issue. I haven't personally verified the boiling
point of sodium or tungsten at 1 atm. pressure, for example, so I rely
upon scientific peer review that the textbooks are correct in this
matter. Same goes for the age of rocks & fossils, the speed of light,
etc. When it comes to historical facts, it's more complex, since
sometimes competing historiographical models are involved, but it's a
similar process.
do you know what logical reasoning is
Yes.
DV
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| User: "coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
11 Aug 2003 02:04:03 PM |
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Dogmatic thinkers aren't stupid. Many of them are quite clever (St.
Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Marx, Lenin, Luther, Phillip Johnson,
etc.). At least they seem clever to me, and I've been studying them
for many years. But they are reasoning from false premises.
Many people, when they confront such mindsets, which seem to be immune
to empirical facts or logical reasoning, due to the other party
who decides what are facts
We each decide for ourselves. I prefer to generally follow the
consensus of the scientific community where facts I have not directly
gosh youre such a model of tolerance
the sad thing is you dont enjoy
when others the express thw same form of tolerance of you
but unable to grasp the simple notion of give as you would receive
you express the same attitufde as those you despise
instead of trying to be a better person
observed are at issue. I haven't personally verified the boiling
what you havent personally verified is the entire methodology
is a much a matter of faith as any other system
and until you realize that
youre as mired in dogmatism as those you condenscend to
do you know what logical reasoning is
Yes.
why not show some
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| User: "Peter H" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianityand rebirth of Paganism? |
11 Aug 2003 07:35:36 PM |
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darth_versive wrote:
People should, after all, have
the freedom to believe such things if they want to, but should not
have the power to impose those beliefs on others,
Here's where it all comes down. There are sufficient of these pinheads
to keep historians busy for all of recorded time. At least thus far any
*objective* history of man would show continual banging of heads
against the stone wall of *rightness.*
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Poorly stated; me culpa. I meant to suggest that, as had been mentioned
previously, there will seemingly always be a perpetual supply of those
who are the One True Guradian Of The One True Light. Pretty much thus
far, history is overloaded wit hthe One True's... that even after a
moment's retrospect have proven to be blathering idiots. And, in
Macbeth's words, "...lighted fools the way to dusty death."
It's the job of historians to
chronicle the actions of these pinheads as best they can.
If they can establish a referent wherein the pinheadedness becomes clear
for what it is/was. The context(s) are a kaleidoscope everchanging and
today's blood-lust fanaticism may elsetime be seen as a fad or quirk of
social structures that even themselves may be misunderstood. Consider as
a pleasant example of how yesteryear's rites can become the
misunderstood pleasantries of today the Celtic maypole. From its "true"
dance of maidens & youth about a blatant phallic symbol (all religions
are loaded with sex, expecially those that seem to abhor sex) wherein
the choosing of suitable sexual partners hopefully to become life
partners it has now become seen as a simple reel-in-the-round with
flowers, ribbons & little else.
It's our
job to read these histories and incorporate them into our
understanding of human nature as best we can.
I ramble somewhat, but second your motion. Consider how the highly
touted Highland Games of the British Isles were invented pretty much out
of whole cloth (pun not intended but does apply) because the British
(House of Hanover) King was quite taken by all things Scottish, even
though the true Highland Scots way of life was even then being
steamrollered out of existence by Lowland Scotland's headlong rush into
the capitalist/industrial revolution. (See any competent historian's
recounting of "the clearances.")
The persistence of the pinheads in their dogmatic views shouldn't
paralyze us while we wait for the final chapter of history to be
written. It never will be. We have to do what we can with the
information we now have.
And hope that we don't fudge the cue cards
Pete H
--
Second-ratedness, unfailing law of:
Never be the first to try anything.
anon.
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| User: "darth_versive" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
12 Aug 2003 01:24:23 PM |
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Peter H <pmhilton@mfx.net> wrote in message news:<3F383658.6010306@mfx.net>...
darth_versive wrote:
<snip>
It's the job of historians to
chronicle the actions of these pinheads as best they can.
If they can establish a referent wherein the pinheadedness becomes clear
for what it is/was. The context(s) are a kaleidoscope everchanging and
today's blood-lust fanaticism may elsetime be seen as a fad or quirk of
social structures that even themselves may be misunderstood. Consider as
a pleasant example of how yesteryear's rites can become the
misunderstood pleasantries of today the Celtic maypole. From its "true"
dance of maidens & youth about a blatant phallic symbol (all religions
are loaded with sex, expecially those that seem to abhor sex) wherein
the choosing of suitable sexual partners hopefully to become life
partners it has now become seen as a simple reel-in-the-round with
flowers, ribbons & little else.
The kaleidoscope of changing cultural contexts is an important factor
to consider when trying to understand the history of these sorts of
ideas. Too many historians these days are too specialized, or too
reluctant to tackle the subjectivity of religious thinking, to put the
different pieces together, in my view.
It's our
job to read these histories and incorporate them into our
understanding of human nature as best we can.
I ramble somewhat, but second your motion. Consider how the highly
touted Highland Games of the British Isles were invented pretty much out
of whole cloth (pun not intended but does apply) because the British
(House of Hanover) King was quite taken by all things Scottish, even
though the true Highland Scots way of life was even then being
steamrollered out of existence by Lowland Scotland's headlong rush into
the capitalist/industrial revolution. (See any competent historian's
recounting of "the clearances.")
Such seemingly isolated facts are the raw material that people use to
make sense of the evolution of ideas in general. When put into
various theoretical frameworks which take account of the research
being done in various social science fields, the discussion of these
facts by various parties becomes an important part of the advance in
our understading of cognition and culture.
The persistence of the pinheads in their dogmatic views shouldn't
paralyze us while we wait for the final chapter of history to be
written. It never will be. We have to do what we can with the
information we now have.
And hope that we don't fudge the cue cards
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
DV
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| User: "Sams the Man" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
08 Aug 2003 07:08:44 AM |
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Peter H <pmhilton@mfx.net> wrote in message news:<3F2D6AAF.5030505@mfx.net>...
darth_versive wrote:
This is far too concise and far too accurate forthe average fundie to
swallow. But I, for one, will second your motion - quite heartily.
Thanks for introducing us to your own intolerance, gross
generalisations and misjudgements.
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| User: "Peter H" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianityand rebirth of Paganism? |
08 Aug 2003 03:40:09 PM |
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Sam's the Man wrote:
Peter H <pmhilton@mfx.net> wrote in message news:<3F2D6AAF.5030505@mfx.net>...
darth_versive wrote:
This is far too concise and far too accurate forthe average fundie to
swallow. But I, for one, will second your motion - quite heartily.
Thanks for introducing us to your own intolerance, gross
generalisations and misjudgements.
So... Tarred with the same brush, I see.
Pete H
--
If you're always right
there's something wrong.
anon.
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| User: "Guy Gordon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
01 Aug 2003 11:30:12 PM |
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(Apollonius) wrote:
Harry Potter and the Future of Europe
By Jeff Fountain
<HUGE snip>
Jeasus, if you're wanting to boor me to death, you could do it in less
than 400 lines.
----== Posted via Usenet.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.Usenet.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
01 Aug 2003 11:38:01 PM |
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"Guy Gordon" <gordon@NOSPAMwhite-crane.com> wrote in message
news:0hfmiv0i40mt5bp4ejn9rtcno80b736r57@4ax.com...
u106475830@spawnkill.ip-mobilphone.net (Apollonius) wrote:
Harry Potter and the Future of Europe
By Jeff Fountain
<HUGE snip>
Jeasus, if you're wanting to boor me to death, you could do it in less
than 400 lines.
Obviously - you've managed it in two.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
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| User: "Markku Uttula" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
01 Aug 2003 07:36:57 PM |
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Agamemnon wrote:
Harry Potter and the Future of Europe
Harry Potter has absolutely NOTHING to do with so-called Paganism or
Polytheism.
Nor does Harry Potter have anything to do with so-called religious
groupings or monotheism for that matter.
All the so-called Magic, Daemons, Wizards, Giant Spiders etc. that
appear in the books are derived directly from medieval Christian
literature, therefore Harry Potter is part of Christianity.
Some of the things in HP books even go way further back than medieval
times. Some even way beyond the birth of christianity.
--
Markku Uttula
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| User: "Markku Uttula" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 10:31:46 AM |
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Agamemnon wrote:
All the so-called Magic, Daemons, Wizards, Giant Spiders etc. that
appear in the books are derived directly from medieval Christian
literature, therefore Harry Potter is part of Christianity.
Some of the things in HP books even go way further back than
medieval times. Some even way beyond the birth of christianity.
No they don't. They are are derived from the same insane 19th
century revisionist claptrap that gave us Durids (tree worshipers)
worshiping and Stonehenge.
I believe you might have misunderstood me here. I was not attempting
to disagree with you (well, only the part that HP is somehow part of
"christianity":) but show that some of the things have their roots in
old legends that themself have nothing to do with religious beliefs
(if the early legends can be distinguished from religious beliefs of
that time period, that is).
You can safely rest assured that Harry Potter has absolutely
nothing to do with Hellenic and Roman Pantheism, not the Norse or
Teutonic religion nor the Egyptian, Assyro-Babylonian or Hittite
region.
Yes.
Everything in it is form medieval Christianity or pure
science fiction.
No. It is only legends, no religious connections of any kind intended
(and therefore should not be searched - if you try to search
something, you will find it, because you're taking every implication
that could possibly mean a connection to be a connection whether it is
or not).
If you think differently then cite some examples.
There is no religion, current or gone in the books. Citeing examples
of non-existence of something is impossible.
--
Markku Uttula
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| User: "Markku Uttula" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 10:35:20 AM |
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And once again it seems I haven't noted that this has been crossposted
to religious groups and not solely to afhp. I hate it when people do
that - it's impossible to know in which group other people are going
the conversation in. Of course, this causes them to take into account
the mood of *that* specific group, which might be totally different
from all the other people discussing the subject :(
Makes it rather hard to have a conversation where people fully
understand other discussers' point of view.
--
Markku Uttula
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| User: "Sams the Man" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 10:38:35 PM |
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"Markku Uttula" <markku.uttula@disconova.com> wrote in message news:<bPQWa.4207$HC4.2559@reader1.news.jippii.net>...
And once again it seems I haven't noted that this has been crossposted
to religious groups and not solely to afhp. I hate it when people do
that - it's impossible to know in which group other people are going
the conversation in. Of course, this causes them to take into account
the mood of *that* specific group, which might be totally different
from all the other people discussing the subject :(
Makes it rather hard to have a conversation where people fully
understand other discussers' point of view.
Actually, that's the point. It's a troll tactic.
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| User: "Peter H" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianityand rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 06:02:32 PM |
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Apollonius wrote:
Harry Potter and the Future of Europe
By Jeff Fountain
Hereby a monumental snip of a mountain of blathering, rambling,
gibbering silliness; a whole buncha pseudo-intellectual drivel which was
actually a very suavely phrased rephrashing of the mindless tabloids one
finds next to the checkout counters.
In the light of my recent experience I began to see that the western
axis has been that of atheism-theism
?!?!?!?
, while the eastern worldview
belongs to the polytheism-pantheism axis. With many in the west
rejecting both theism and materialism, a new animism was on the rise,
mixing and matching elements from both polytheism and pantheism. What
other options are available?
But of course, we live in post-modern times,
?!?!?!?!?
when all "-isms" are
considered "was-ms"! Meta-narratives, worldviews or broad explanations
of reality, are rejected. This reality matrix itself is a 'modern'
rational construct, irrelevant for post-moderns, who simply shrug their
shoulders and say, "So what?" But the post-modern mentality fits the
irrationality of the pantheism/ polytheism fusion of contradictory
concepts very well., and provides a fertile breeding ground for a new
pagan spirituality.
Boy, have you swallowed someone's agenda including the foam peanuts it
came packed in! The preceding paragraph is just plain silly! And the one
before that, as well!
Unsettling? Yes, especially when we recall that the last occasion when
paganism made major inroads into European culture was under Hitler! He
took the ancient Germanic gods seriously; his henchmen Goebbels and
Himmler could have been graduates of a School of Witchcraft and
Wizardry themselves!
You're outta your so-called skull!
But God is not surprised. This is nothing new for Him. The Bible
unfolded against this sort of animistic, pagan background.
Not surprising. But rather beside the point.
Moses and
Elijah confronted pagan gods.
When overtaking (with rape & pillage) another's country, one has little
choice but to say "God says it's the thing to do.)
Paul spoke the gospel into Athen's pagan,
animistic world.
He was rather speaking against his own Hellenistic backgound. There's no
drunk like a reformed drunk.
The Irish Celts joyfully transmitted the good news
from one pagan people to another, and evangelised much of medieval
Europe.
You've really made a mish-mash of things here. Rather like saying that
Ford produces Chevrolets.
Perhaps the Harry Potter books will help us wake up to our need to
learn to communicate God's truth in new ways into a new pagan
spirituality.
So, then, Chicken Little is not to worry about adverse meterological
forces but rather become skilled at insider trading? Your final sentence
is pure gibberish!
Yours in the north Maine woods,
Pete Hilton aka The Ent
--
If you're always right
there's something wrong.
anon.
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| User: "Öjevind Lång" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 05:28:29 PM |
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Apollonius wrote:
[snip]
Despite a degree in history, I had apparently missed this part of my
education. Growing up in New Zealand, the classical period had not
appealed to me as being particularly relevant to modern life and times.
The classical period grew up in New Zealand? And that made it unappealing?
[snip]
But God is not surprised. This is nothing new for Him. The Bible
unfolded against this sort of animistic, pagan background. Moses and
Elijah confronted pagan gods. Paul spoke the gospel into Athen's pagan,
animistic world.
What a lot of cobblers. Apparently, Fountain thinks everything that isn't
Christian is "animistic".
Please keep this rubbish out of alt.fan.tolkien.
Öjevind
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| User: "Toon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 04:48:30 AM |
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No, because no child who likes the books has adopted Pagan beliefs, or
even knows what a Pagan is. And adults wouldn't change (to pagan or
anything else0 if they're lives depended on it. Only a moron
associates all magic with evil magic.
I'd hate to see what they think of Mickey Mouse being the Sorcerer's
Apprentice, and creating his own Great Flood.
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| User: "NEtRENCHERPRIME" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 06:48:50 PM |
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Toon <toon@toon.com> wrote in message news:<lqdkivs67usvehev7fonjpaln83noofnhp@4ax.com>...
No, because no child who likes the books has adopted Pagan beliefs, or
even knows what a Pagan is. And adults wouldn't change (to pagan or
anything else0 if they're lives depended on it. Only a moron
associates all magic with evil magic.
I'd feel sorry for anyone who took the magic in Potter's books as
serious at all. It might be quite akin to saying THE WIZARD OF OZ was
too wrapped up in magic and leaned toward paganism. Does Potter's
magic work? Only if you live in Potter's world, I have high doubts
about it working locally. From what is visible, Potter doesn't
represent or resemble modern paganism at all.
BCNU
NEtRENCHERPRIME
--
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself. They've got
muscle for brains." GANG OF FOUR
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| User: "The Other Kim" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 12:04:53 PM |
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I'd feel sorry for anyone who took the magic in Potter's books as
serious at all. It might be quite akin to saying THE WIZARD OF OZ was
too wrapped up in magic and leaned toward paganism. Does Potter's
magic work? Only if you live in Potter's world, I have high doubts
about it working locally. From what is visible, Potter doesn't
represent or resemble modern paganism at all.
Not even close. You will notice that the only mention of an actual
religion in the books are the references to Christmas. Yes, they
decorate for Halloween, but find me someone who doesn't know about the
cultural phenomenon of Halloween. Those who know about the celebration
of Samhain are fewer; there are those in the fundamentalist mindset who
honestly believe that Samhain is the name of a god (Sam Hain, according
to a Jack Chick tract) instead of a word meaning "Winter's Eve".
Anyone who believes that a major (or even a minor) world religion would
be threatened by people reading a fantasy book is very unsure of their
own beliefs.
Blessings,
Songweaver (aka The Other Kim, among other posing nicks)
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| User: "NEtRENCHERPRIME" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
04 Aug 2003 12:28:54 PM |
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"The Other Kim" <Lady_Kimmer@altcastlenet.com> wrote in message news:<bgjfl2$oh65l$1@ID-22610.news.uni-berlin.de>...
I'd feel sorry for anyone who took the magic in Potter's books as
serious at all. It might be quite akin to saying THE WIZARD OF OZ was
too wrapped up in magic and leaned toward paganism. Does Potter's
magic work? Only if you live in Potter's world, I have high doubts
about it working locally. From what is visible, Potter doesn't
represent or resemble modern paganism at all.
Not even close. You will notice that the only mention of an actual
religion in the books are the references to Christmas. Yes, they
decorate for Halloween, but find me someone who doesn't know about the
cultural phenomenon of Halloween. Those who know about the celebration
of Samhain are fewer;
There was a band called 'Samhain', with Glenn Danzig as the singer.
Not too bad; although I far prefered it when he sang with 'The
Misfits'.
BCNU
NEtRENCHERPRIME
--
"Save me from the people who would save me from myself. They've got
muscle for brains." GANG OF FOUR
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| User: "Peter H" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianityand rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 03:12:50 PM |
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The Other Kim wrote:
there are those in the fundamentalist mindset who
honestly believe that Samhain is the name of a god (Sam Hain, according
to a Jack Chick tract) instead of a word meaning "Winter's Eve".
You've gotta be kidding. I know the fundies will go to astonishing
lengths, but "Sam Hain"???? Who is this Jack Chick & why hasn't he
published in the checkout-lane tabloids yet?
Pete H. aka The Ent
--
If you're always right
there's something wrong.
anon.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 03:34:55 PM |
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On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:12:50 -0400 in alt.atheism, Peter H (Peter H
<pmhilton@mfx.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
The Other Kim wrote:
there are those in the fundamentalist mindset who
honestly believe that Samhain is the name of a god (Sam Hain, according
to a Jack Chick tract) instead of a word meaning "Winter's Eve".
You've gotta be kidding. I know the fundies will go to astonishing
lengths, but "Sam Hain"???? Who is this Jack Chick & why hasn't he
published in the checkout-lane tabloids yet?
<sarcasm>
Jack Chick is one of the most accomplished artists and theologians
publishing today, and his comprehension of religion is exceeded only
by his grasp of history which is in turn dwarfed by his compassion for
his fellow humans. Many consider that he's too good for this world and
are impatient for him to journey to the next where he will doubtless
be able to teach God a thing or two. See
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp for details.
</sarcasm>
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 **
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| User: "Peter H" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianityand rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 05:59:56 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
The Other Kim wrote:
Jack Chick is one of the most accomplished artists and theologians
publishing today, and his comprehension of religion is exceeded only
by his grasp of history which is in turn dwarfed by his compassion for
his fellow humans. Many consider that he's too good for this world and
are impatient for him to journey to the next where he will doubtless
be able to teach God a thing or two.
I had suspicioned that that was somewhat the case. Unfortunate that I'll
never be illumined by such as he. And thank **** betimes.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
I've no quibble with this - unfortnate that such sound advice can't be
retrenched in some morass of intellectually inpenetrable dogma i.e.
Council of Nicea, whereupon several more epochs of insanity such as
those we're passing through might be "empowered." (Gads, I hate the word
"empowered.")
Yours in the north Maine woods,
Pete Hilton aka The Ent aka The Bad Bozo
--
If you're always right
there's something wrong.
anon.
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| User: "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 05:07:01 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-y@hoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.08.03.22.03.58.567734@eac.org...
On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:12:50 -0400, Peter H wrote:
The Other Kim wrote:
there are those in the fundamentalist mindset who
honestly believe that Samhain is the name of a god (Sam Hain, according
to a Jack Chick tract) instead of a word meaning "Winter's Eve".
You've gotta be kidding. I know the fundies will go to astonishing
lengths, but "Sam Hain"???? Who is this Jack Chick & why hasn't he
published in the checkout-lane tabloids yet?
Why isn't he published there?
Um... not up to their standards?
He's probably cursing Marvel Comics for creating Odin, Thor etc and wonders
why the X-men don't seem to have as many worshippers.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
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| User: "Peter H" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianityand rebirth of Paganism? |
03 Aug 2003 06:01:37 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
I know the fundies will go to astonishing
lengths, but "Sam Hain"???? Who is this Jack Chick & why hasn't he
published in the checkout-lane tabloids yet?
Why isn't he published there?
Um... not up to their standards?
That's difficult to envision. [Not sure if the pun's inentional, but
it's apposite.]
Pete H
--
If you're always right
there's something wrong.
anon.
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| User: "gjw" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
01 Aug 2003 09:39:51 PM |
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No.
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| User: "Dirk Bruere at Neopax" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
01 Aug 2003 09:44:57 PM |
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"gjw" <gjw@example.com> wrote in message
news:3f2f24bb.23611655@news.earthlink.net...
No.
Obviously not, since paganism was reborn long before the HP books.
The revival of paganism is one reason for such ready acceptance of HP.
FFF
Dirk
The Consensus:-
The political party for the new millennium
http://www.theconsensus.org
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| User: "Bertie the Bunyip" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
01 Aug 2003 10:19:56 PM |
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"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in news:bgf8il$o1qjs$1@ID-
120108.news.uni-berlin.de:
"gjw" <gjw@example.com> wrote in message
news:3f2f24bb.23611655@news.earthlink.net...
No.
Obviously not, since paganism was reborn long before the HP books.
The revival of paganism is one reason for such ready acceptance of HP.
not to mention Burger King, Will and Grace and Rap
Bertie
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| User: "Jette Goldie" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
02 Aug 2003 11:33:13 AM |
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"Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jIFWa.448$Pt4.368@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
"Dirk Bruere at Neopax" <dirk@neopax.com> wrote in message
news:bgf8il$o1qjs$1@ID-120108.news.uni-berlin.de...
"gjw" <gjw@example.com> wrote in message
news:3f2f24bb.23611655@news.earthlink.net...
No.
Obviously not, since paganism was reborn long before the HP books.
The revival of paganism is one reason for such ready acceptance of HP.
Sure. It's all recent. It's not like, say, there's been a national
holiday
for 50 years where kids have dressed up as witches, goblins and ghosts.
Well, I dunno about a "national holiday" but Samhain (aka
"Halloween") has been going on for centuries.
--
Jette
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
"Organised religion is a disease and the most dangerous symptom is that
those suffering from it believe that infecting others is a Good Thing"
.
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| User: "Doug Freyburger" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
06 Aug 2003 04:17:26 PM |
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Dirk Bruere wrote:
gjw wrote:
No.
Obviously not, since paganism was reborn long before the HP books.
Predictions of the coming end of a major religion are nonsense. I'v'e met
Zoroastrians. That was a major religion millenia ago and it still has
followers. Religions don't go from a billion followers and just fall out
of favor in any lifetime.
The revival of paganism is one reason for such ready acceptance of HP.
Sure, but I offer an additional reason.
I went through elementary school in the 1960s. I was taught Greek, Roman
and Norse mythology there as a part of my core education. My daughters
went through elementary school in the 1980s and 1990s. They weren't
taught the old myths. Fundies have spent many years fighting to get the
old heathen wisdom removed from ourt schools, and as a result modern myths
are popular without bound. Star Wars and the Force. Harry Potter and
Wizardry. That which the fundies have fought has arrisen around them in
spite of their efforts. Humans just plain value good adventure tales.
You can give them adventure tales that have survived a thousand years of
retelling that got deep moral messages woven into them, aka myths, or you
watch them find adventure tales elsewhere.
Harry Potter's popularity has nothing to do with Paganism and everything
to do with the efforts of fundies removed core material from the educational
material in schools. They have given energy to that which they have fought.
I'd rather have the old valuable tales. Pandora's box, Frey and Gerd,
Romulus and Remus.
Hail Asgard!
Doug Freyburger
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| User: "NEtRENCHERPRIME" |
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| Title: Re: Is Harry Potter's popularity a sign of the coming end of Christianity and rebirth of Paganism? |
07 Aug 2003 08:31:14 PM |
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(Doug Freyburger) wrote in message news:<7960d3ee.0308061317.772d5b5b@posting.google.com>...
Dirk Bruere wrote:
gjw wrote:
No.
Obviously not, since paganism was reborn long before the HP books.
Predictions of the coming end of a major religion are nonsense. I'v'e met
Zoroastrians. That was a major religion millenia ago and it still has
followers. Religions don't go from a billion followers and just fall out
of favor in any lifetime.
I've never met a Zoroastrian (that I know of), but I would very much
like to meet one sometime. I've always been fascinated by
Zarathrustra and Mazda. A valuable lesson in the Z religion is that
it is acceptable to worship a limited god, something unheard of in the
big 3.
The revival of paganism is one reason for such ready acceptance of HP.
Sure, but I offer an additional reason.
I went through elementary school in the 1960s. I was taught Greek, Roman
and Norse mythology there as a part of my core education. My daughters
went through elementary school in the 1980s and 1990s. They weren't
taught the old myths. Fundies have spent many years fighting to get the
old heathen wisdom removed from ourt schools, and as a result modern myths
are popular without bound. Star Wars and the Force. Harry Potter and
Wizardry. That which the fundies have fought has arrisen around them in
spite of their efforts. Humans just plain value good adventure tales.
You can give them adventure tales that have survived a thousand years of
retelling that got deep moral messages woven into them, aka myths, or you
watch them find adventure tales elsewhere.
The problem with Fundies and fantasy fiction is it points out too
obviously that some of their religion might actually be Myth. Myth is
a powerful tool for passing information and history down through the
generations, and 'myth' does not mean 'a lie', a meaning our modern
culture typically attempts to attribute to the word.
Harry Potter's popularity has nothing to do with Paganism and everything
to do with the efforts of fundies removed core material from the educational
material in schools. They have given energy to that which they have fought.
They did this with 'Last Temptation of Christ', too. Not dissimilar
to what happened with 'The Satanic Verses', is it?
I'd rather have the old valuable tales. Pandora's box, Frey and Gerd,
Romulus and Remus.
Agreed! These are great stories, and our culture tends to downplay
their importance. The problem is, you can't say Jesus literally
walked on water, then turn around and say Icharus never flew on
homemade wings-the second being the technically more plausible story.
This is not in any way negative to what Jesus said and taught, though
to claim that *what was important* was that he walked on water, thus
proving he was the son of God. If Jesus was the son of God, why do
you need objective proof to have faith? Not to mention, if Jesus was
the son of God and performed miracles, why is it assumed he *failed*
to say what he wanted while he was alive, so it's important that Paul
finish sentences for him? In my estimation, Jesus thought everyone
was a son of God, and therefore felt justified in claiming he was.
BCNU
NEtRENCHERPRIME
--
"Cohersion of the senses. We're not so gullible." GANG OF FOUR
.
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