| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Maaxx" |
| Date: |
28 Feb 2005 04:52:06 PM |
| Object: |
Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
Perhaps it's because so many left-wingers view the war protests in the
sixties as the "glory days" of the liberal movement or because like Ted
Rall, they believe that...
"Losing to Third Worlders in PJs led Americans to decades of relative
humility, self-examination and taking the moral high ground in
conflicts such as Haiti and Kosovo."
...but the left in this country is fixated on Vietnam.
Remember the Gulf War? I was in college back then and I had a liberal
professor who told us to prepare for 100,000 casualties and a draft. Know
why? Because that's what war was like. Remember Vietnam!
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan was
the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and before a
month was out there were liberals in the media who believed we were stuck
in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see what I mean:
"Could Afghanistan become another Vietnam? Is the United States facing
another stalemate on the other side of the world? Premature the
questions may be, three weeks after the fighting began. Unreasonable
they are not, given the scars scoured into the national psyche by defeat
in Southeast Asia. For all the differences between the two conflicts,
and there are many, echoes of Vietnam are unavoidable." -- R.W. Apple,
New York Times, Oct 31, 2001
Anyone STILL think Afghanistan is another Vietnam? Anyone?
Furthermore, we should not forget that Iraq is now in its 2nd "Quagmire
Stage". There were initially left-wingers in the media claiming we were
bogged down in "another Vietnam" while we were fighting our
three-week-long battle against Saddam's troops. Just look at these quotes
while keeping in mind that hostilities commenced on March 19, 2003:
"During the Vietnam War, there was a morose song that claimed that
Lyndon Johnson had mired the United States in the ''Big Muddy,'' a dark
swamp from which there was no escape. Because the U.S. military never
seems to learn from its mistakes, it would appear that we are once
again deep in the Big Muddy." -- Andrew Greeley on April 4, 2003.
"Already officers in the Gulf are comparing Rumsfeld to Robert
McNamara, the secretary of defense and architect of Vietnam who sent
his soldiers into battle when he knew nothing of the Vietnamese.
In past weeks I have been worrying about going to war in Iraq too soon
without sufficient international support and worrying about the really
dangerous postwar plans of the radical neo-conservatives who seem to be
so influential in this administration. But I confess I never worried
about the competence of Rumsfeld and Co. to run a war. I do now."
-- H.D.S. Greenway in an editorial called, "Vietnam's lessons forgotten
in Iraq" on April 4, 2003.
"(T)he fact of the matter is that the United States has got itself in a
terrible bind here without regional allies" and suggested that "without
UN legitimacy -- forget it, never work, Vietnam quagmire next stop."
-- Arthur Kent on April 5, 2003
All the Vietnam talk cooled for a while after the statue was pulled down
in Firdos Square, but once the insurgency got cranked up, it came back
with a vengeance.
But, how alike are Iraq and Vietnam really?
In Vietnam, the country was split into two halves and North Vietnam had a
large & experienced army with popular support in the North. Eventually,
North Vietnam was able to conquer the South after Democrats in Congress
cut off supplies and air support to our former allies and left them to be
slaughtered. Compare that to Iraq where our enemies are terrorists and
gangsters who hold no territory, are wildly unpopular, and who have
absolutely no hope of conquering the country militarily.
Furthermore, Vietnam was called a "quagmire" with good reason. After
Lyndon Johnson ramped up the number of troops we had there, we fought for
10 years and more than 58,000 of our troops lost their lives. On the other
hand, in Iraq, we've lost less than 1500 American soldiers so far in a
country we invaded less than 2 years ago. Were we to continue on at the
same pace in Iraq, it would take more than 70 years to match the numbers
from Vietnam. However, given the wildly successful elections last month in
Iraq and the growing numbers of trained Iraqi Security Forces (125,000 are
ready to go and their numbers will eventually reach 271,000), it's likely
that we're going to see American casualty rates start to drop
significantly in the coming months as the Iraqis become capable of
handling their own internal security.
What it all comes down to is that you can always find vague points of
comparison between wars, whether it's Iraq and Vietnam or the War of 1812
and WW2. That being said, what's happening in Iraq today is a
fundamentally different conflict from Vietnam and quite frankly, that
should be rather obvious to anyone other than liberals who insist that
practically every war we fight is "another Vietnam."
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 12:27:42 AM |
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"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote
[---ASCII sneeze deleted---]
Q: Name two differences between Iraq & Vietnam.
A: #1 George Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam, and
#2 that plan worked.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 05:27:12 PM |
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"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
"Please move on to crystal meth. I've seen people on it (I'm a downer
kinda guy myself) and I assure you it works."~ MaaxxOnMeds, certified loser.
From: (Maaxx)
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
Subject: Caffeine is a gateway drug
Date: 7 Feb 2005 12:05:39 -0800
Message-ID: <726cceb5.0502071205.49fe38bc@posting.google.com>
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| User: "Jim E FatboyPlonker@ FU.gov" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 08:15:43 PM |
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
"Please move on to crystal meth. I've seen people on it (I'm a downer
kinda guy myself) and I assure you it works."~ MaaxxOnMeds, certified
loser.
From: (Maaxx)
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
Subject: Caffeine is a gateway drug
Date: 7 Feb 2005 12:05:39 -0800
Message-ID: <726cceb5.0502071205.49fe38bc@posting.google.com>
You do realize that what you post sometimes
makes no sense the sane readers of this NG.
Jim E
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 10:04:22 PM |
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"Jim E" <FatboyPlonker@ FU.gov> wrote in message
news:38i1icF5naoe5U1@individual.net...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
"Please move on to crystal meth. I've seen people on it (I'm a downer
kinda guy myself) and I assure you it works."~ MaaxxOnMeds, certified
loser.
From: (Maaxx)
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
Subject: Caffeine is a gateway drug
Date: 7 Feb 2005 12:05:39 -0800
Message-ID: <726cceb5.0502071205.49fe38bc@posting.google.com>
You do realize that what you post sometimes
makes no sense the sane readers of this NG.
Jim E
Maaxx is just another troll. His comment about the ancient
Greeks 'inventing' the atom was a dead giveaway.
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| User: "Acharya" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
02 Mar 2005 05:01:37 AM |
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"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gamdnbscUuovdL7fRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
"Jim E" <FatboyPlonker@ FU.gov> wrote in message
news:38i1icF5naoe5U1@individual.net...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
"Please move on to crystal meth. I've seen people on it (I'm a downer
kinda guy myself) and I assure you it works."~ MaaxxOnMeds, certified
loser.
From: (Maaxx)
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
Subject: Caffeine is a gateway drug
Date: 7 Feb 2005 12:05:39 -0800
Message-ID: <726cceb5.0502071205.49fe38bc@posting.google.com>
You do realize that what you post sometimes
makes no sense the sane readers of this NG.
Jim E
Maaxx is just another troll. His comment about the ancient
Greeks 'inventing' the atom was a dead giveaway.
No such thing. Even your name is a dead giveaway.
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| User: "jbeck" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 06:25:46 PM |
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 10:34:15 PM |
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"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:4223b68b@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
It's called "honesty". Whats yours, troll?
Clearly, 'Gactipuss to the Maaxx' finds that to be a foreign concept.
How about you?
LC~ Another troll caught in the sticky web of 'irony'.
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about what I accept as reality."~
Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
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| User: "Acharya" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
02 Mar 2005 04:36:57 AM |
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:bhSUd.8059$MY6.2513@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:4223b68b@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
It's called "honesty". Whats yours, troll?
A circular argument from an empty vessel. What else is new?
.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
02 Mar 2005 09:04:49 AM |
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"Acharya" <acharya@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dHgVd.16644$VD5.288@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:bhSUd.8059$MY6.2513@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:4223b68b@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
It's called "honesty". Whats yours, troll?
A circular argument from an empty vessel. What else is new?
And another non-contribution from another trolling rightard. <yawn>
If you wish to feed the trolls, be my guest.
I prefer to give them the mocking they deserve.
Vive la difference!
LC~ So many trolls, so little time.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal."~
Aristotle
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| User: "jbeck" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
02 Mar 2005 01:28:46 PM |
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:lCkVd.3065$L17.2762@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Acharya" <acharya@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dHgVd.16644$VD5.288@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:bhSUd.8059$MY6.2513@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:4223b68b@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
It's called "honesty". Whats yours, troll?
A circular argument from an empty vessel. What else is new?
And another non-contribution from another trolling rightard. <yawn>
and a big <yawn> towards your posts...have a nice day.
.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
02 Mar 2005 03:35:32 PM |
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"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:422613ef@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:lCkVd.3065$L17.2762@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Acharya" <acharya@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dHgVd.16644$VD5.288@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:bhSUd.8059$MY6.2513@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:4223b68b@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
It's called "honesty". Whats yours, troll?
<sounds of silence from complaining troll>
A circular argument from an empty vessel. What else is new?
And another non-contribution from another trolling rightard. <yawn>
and a big <yawn> towards your posts...
Did someone force you to read it, troll?
have a nice day.
Oh, but I am.
And thank you for your magnificent 'contribution'. <snicker>
LC~ Jeff Beck plays a mean guitar, but 'jbeck' seems limited to air guitar.
"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus
handicapped."~Elbert Hubbard
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| User: "Maaxx" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
03 Mar 2005 11:43:56 AM |
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in
news:EkqVd.9709$MY6.8308@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:422613ef@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:lCkVd.3065$L17.2762@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Acharya" <acharya@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message
news:dHgVd.16644$VD5.288@twister.socal.rr.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:bhSUd.8059$MY6.2513@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:4223b68b@nntp.zianet.com...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in message
news:kNNUd.7908$MY6.7874@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:1751.28022005@prague.czechoslovakia.cz...
One thing's for sure: "Maaxx" is just another "Gactipuss".
And "Snupid", "Kang", "Dingleberry", etc.
LC~ Rightards and sockpuppeting seem to go hand and hand.
And you contributed to the thread how?
It's called "honesty". Whats yours, troll?
<sounds of silence from complaining troll>
A circular argument from an empty vessel. What else is new?
And another non-contribution from another trolling rightard. <yawn>
and a big <yawn> towards your posts...
Did someone force you to read it, troll?
have a nice day.
Oh, but I am.
And thank you for your magnificent 'contribution'. <snicker>
Some people would be very interested in your homosexual advances, kid.
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
03 Mar 2005 12:04:11 PM |
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"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message
news:d07ics$ci4$12@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in
news:EkqVd.9709$MY6.8308@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
"jbeck" <jNOSPAMbeck@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:422613ef@nntp.zianet.com...
have a nice day.
Oh, but I am.
And thank you for your magnificent 'contribution'. <snicker>
Some people would be very interested in your homosexual advances, kid.
No thanks, Maaxxipuss. You really should be careful what you post, in light
of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
You *are* in the military, right? <BFG>
Even if I were gay, you're *far too* schitzophrenic for any sane person.
Besides, you've already admitted to being as dickless as you are clueless.
Btw, I note you have again run away from a thread:
"I am in the military and will likely go to Iraq"~ Maaxx/Gactipuss et al,
phony keyboard warrior in
1102805593.23c32497591dbb4c019e4992dff7a0ed@bubbanews
Now, tell me: Which branch of the service are you in?
Which assignment permits you to sit at the computer 24/7 and make inane
trolls?
Answer quickly, Snupid, for I'm off to Costa Rica tomorrow.
If, as usual, you are just lying, I'm sure that you'll try and change the
subject before scampering off.
So, with that anticipated, "Your double standard and admission of defeat is
duly noted."
Enjoy your emasculation. I am.
LC~ Maaxipuss in the military? Bwahahahahaha!
"My old ***** fell off and now I need a new one."~ Maaxipuss, dickless and
clueless, in
Message-ID: <726cceb5.0502070939.7ec563ce@posting.google.com>
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| User: "Maaxx" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
03 Mar 2005 08:47:08 PM |
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"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in
news:vkIVd.201$oO4.147@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
"My old ***** fell off and now I need a new one."
Heh, still more ***** than you've ever had.
Keep humping!
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| User: "Loose Cannon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
03 Mar 2005 09:07:57 PM |
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"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote in message news:d08i7b$c1s$1@news.wplus.net...
"Loose Cannon" <looseain't@this.com> wrote in
news:vkIVd.201$oO4.147@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
<Nothing>
Btw, I note you have again run away from this *again*:
"I am in the military and will likely go to Iraq"~ Maaxx/Gactipuss et al,
phony keyboard warrior in
1102805593.23c32497591dbb4c019e4992dff7a0ed@bubbanews
Now, tell me: Which branch of the service are you in?
Which assignment permits you to sit at the computer 24/7 and make inane
trolls?
Answer quickly, Snupid, for I'm off to Costa Rica tomorrow.
If, as usual, you are just lying, I'm sure that you'll try and change the
subject before scampering off.
So, with that anticipated, "Your double standard and admission of defeat is
duly noted."
Enjoy your emasculation. I am.
I'll be back to inflict more soon enough, Puss.
LC~ Maaxipuss in the military? Bwahahahahaha!
"My old ***** fell off and now I need a new one."~ Maaxipuss, dickless and
clueless, in
Message-ID: <726cceb5.0502070939.7ec563ce@posting.google.com>
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 06:12:44 PM |
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Maaxx wrote:
Perhaps it's because so many left-wingers view the war protests in the
sixties as the "glory days" of the liberal movement or because like Ted
Rall, they believe that...
WTF has it to do with alt.atheism ?
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
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| User: "Liberals-HATE.America -" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 08:55:28 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMpipex.com> wrote in message
news:fZ6dnZqf-evrLr7fRVnyuA@pipex.net...
Maaxx wrote:
Perhaps it's because so many left-wingers view the war protests in the
sixties as the "glory days" of the liberal movement or because like Ted
Rall, they believe that...
WTF has it to do with alt.atheism ?
We're trying to find out why atheists hate America?
--
"Look at the murdering thugs in US military uniforms
storming through Iraq, murdering as they go."
- Jefferson Brady, Proud America-Hating, left-wing Liberal Democrat
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| User: "james g. keegan jr." |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 09:10:33 PM |
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"Liberals-HATE.America -" <4MOREYRS4@GOD-BLESS-BUSH.COM> wrote in
news:1109646310.ec7d6409e1040a7f2b4c346adae7c5f5@teranews:
We're trying to find out why atheists hate America?
ask any iraqui, or egyptian, or syrian, or pakistani, or canatian or thai
or korean, or hispanic, or .........
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| User: "lo yeeOn" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 10:01:26 PM |
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In article <1109646310.ec7d6409e1040a7f2b4c346adae7c5f5@teranews>,
Liberals-HATE.America - <4MOREYRS4@GOD-BLESS-BUSH.COM> wrote:
"Jez" <iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMpipex.com> wrote in message
news:fZ6dnZqf-evrLr7fRVnyuA@pipex.net...
Maaxx wrote:
Perhaps it's because so many left-wingers view the war protests in the
sixties as the "glory days" of the liberal movement or because like Ted
Rall, they believe that...
WTF has it to do with alt.atheism ?
We're trying to find out why atheists hate America?
--
"Look at the murdering thugs in US military uniforms
storming through Iraq, murdering as they go."
- Jefferson Brady, Proud America-Hating, left-wing Liberal Democrat
People should try to find out why so many self-professed Christians,
beginning with Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and George W Bush, hate
Jesus Christ and his teaching of peace and nonviolence.
lo yeeOn
========
From Mon Feb 28 22:46:12 EST 2005
Article: 347763 of soc.culture.iraq
Path: reader2.panix.com!reader1.panix.com!panix!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews.google.com!o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: "~ The RAMADI RAZORBACKS ~" <>
Newsgroups: soc.veterans,houston.general,can.politics,soc.culture.iraq,us.military.national-guard
Subject: ~ U.S. CASUALTIES as HIGH as 30,000 ! ~
Date: 28 Feb 2005 16:28:01 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Pentagon Casualty Figures Don't Add Up
By Jim
2-28-5
IN MEMORIAM
Today I'm going to do something a little bit like journalism, except I
haven't done any real follow-up. Still, it's an important issue, and
I'd like any Google maestros reading to help.
Go to your local newspaper site, or TV station site, and do a search
for "local man woman killed wounded Iraq". Weed out the duplicates,
total the numbers, and then check them against the casualty lists,
because there's something funny going on here.
I started to notice something several months ago. The local papers
would interview the mother of someone killed or wounded in Iraq, and
more often than not, there'd be a bitter aside: "Of course, for some
reason, he's not included in the official totals."
Somehow, that struck a chord. And the thought crystallized: They're
lying about the numbers. Think about it - it's absurd to think they
wouldn't, considering everything else they've done.
So, I started reading. Here's what I've found.
_____________________________________________________
60 Minutes looks at the casualty count.
(CBS) More than a quarter million American men and women have served at
one time or another in Iraq. Most will return to the United States more
or less intact. But some come home the hard way - on a stretcher,
bloody and broken.
And, as Correspondent Bob Simon says, there are few bloodier or more
broken than Chris Schneider.
Today, Schneider walks with a limp, on his artificial leg. But even
though he was injured during a military mission in a shooting war zone,
he is not included in the Pentagon's casualty count. Their official
tally shows only deaths and wounded in action. It doesn't include
"non-combat" injured, those whose injuries were not the result of enemy
fire.
How many injured and ill soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines - like
Chris Schneider - are left off the Pentagon's casualty count?
Would you believe 15,000? 60 Minutes asked the Department of Defense to
grant us an interview. They declined. Instead, they sent a letter,
which contains a figure not included in published casualty reports:
"More than 15,000 troops with so-called 'non-battle' injuries and
diseases have been evacuated from Iraq." Yet none of these are included
in the media-reported casualty count, leaving the true human cost of
the war something of a mystery.
"It's difficult to estimate what the total number is," says John Pike,
director of a research group called GlobalSecurity.org which publishes
an informed estimate that goes well beyond what the Pentagon has
released.
"You have to say that the total number of casualties due to wounds,
injury, disease would have to be somewhere in the ballpark of over 20,
maybe 30,000," says Pike.
His calculation, striking as it is, is based on the military's own
definition of casualty - anyone "lost to the organization," in this
case, for medical reasons. And Pike believes it's no accident that the
military reports a number far lower than his estimate.
_____________________________________________________
Then there's dribs and drabs like this:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Eight U.S. troops were not counted in the overall
casualty numbers for operation in Afghanistan and Iraq, according to
Pentagon officials, who cited an audit by the Department of Defense.
Pentagon officials said the names were discovered in the audit
conducted after Defense Department officials found that casualty
numbers appeared to be wrong.
There was no immediate answer by the services -- which have the
authority to release names of the dead -- as to why the names were not
originally reported.
All of the names released Friday by the Pentagon were listed as being
killed by nonhostile injuries.
One name, separate from the eight, was changed from being killed during
the Iraq operation to being killed during the Afghanistan operation.
The increase raises the total number of dead in the Afghanistan
operation from 108 to 112. The overall number of dead during the Iraq
operation rises from 529 to 532.
___________________________________________________
Here's something I didn't know, and I'll bet you didn't, either:
Information about the number of US casualties in Iraq is available on a
web site of the Pentagon or known as the "War Hub" at www.pentagon.gov.
This information covers only those who are officially US citizens
enlisted with different military services.
Hired security contractors, or mercenaries, and recruits who are not
citizens who enlisted to obtain a "green card," are not counted or
mentioned. A large number of the green card recruits are from Mexico
and Central America. There are no organizations to look after their
rights or help them once they're in Iraq. Most of them are buried in
Iraq when killed.
A videotape produced and distributed by the "Majles Shora Al-Mojahideen
in Fallujah," one of the most important military wings of the Iraqi
resistance, showed a burial site discovered outside the Iraqi city of
Samara with tens of bodies in US military body bags. The dead were
dressed in US uniforms. It is estimated that as many as 40% of the US
troops serving in Iraq are green card recruits.
_________________________________________________
It seems only right that the American public should know every single
detail. We should know exactly how bad it is before anyone claims a
"mandate":
WASHINGTON, Jan. 20 (UPI) -- A soldier who served in Iraq apparently
hung himself with a bedsheet last week at Walter Reed Army Medical
Center, but the Pentagon did not count that death two days later when
it announced "a very small increase" in the suicide rate from Operation
Iraqi Freedom.
It also did not count an Operation Iraqi Freedom soldier who apparently
committed suicide at the same military hospital last July. The Pentagon
said it is not counting suicides among troops who killed themselves
after they left Iraq.
A veterans' advocate questioned that decision.
"I want to know why stateside suicides are not counted in the total
number of suicides reported by the Department of Defense," said Steve
Robinson, executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center
and a former Army Ranger.
Robinson said he fears an epidemic of mental problems among troops who
have served in the war. "There appears to be a significant increase in
both suicides and post-traumatic stress disorder," Robinson said.
________________________________________________
Remember the comments made by CNN news chief Eason Jordan about whether
journalists in Iraq were targeted by the military? He resigned but the
questions still linger:
Thirty-six journalists - and 18 media support workers - have been
killed since the beginning of hostilities in Iraq in March 2003,
according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ).
At least nine have died as a result of American fire, said Ann Cooper,
executive director of the CPJ.
Why did he back off? We can only wonder. From August 2003:
The Pentagon has confirmed that US troops have shot and killed a
cameraman working for Reuters news agency in Iraq.
The shooting happened at Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, where six
Iraqis were killed in a mortar attack late on Saturday.
The US military said that soldiers had mistaken Mazen Dana's camera for
a rocket propelled grenade launcher.
The 43-year-old Palestinian was described by Reuters as one of its
finest cameramen.
His death brings to 19 the number of journalists and their assistants
who have died in Iraq or have gone missing since the conflict began.
***
The incident took place in daylight on Sunday afternoon.
Mazen Dana's last pictures show a US tank driving towards him outside
the prison walls.
Several shots ring out from the tank and the camera falls to the
ground.
His sound engineer, Nael al-Shyoukhi, said that the pair had spoken to
a US soldier near the prison shortly before the shooting.
"They saw us and they knew about our identities and our mission," he
said.
________________________________________________
Now, keeping that in mind, read this from Indymedia:
According to Islamonline.net and other sources, Dana's family, when
interviewed after the murder, had stated to investigators that Dana was
murdered because he was shooting video footage of mass graves of US
soldiers --- i.e., soldiers killed who were not counted in the official
Pentagon casualty figures --- for a television documentary on the
subject for Reuters.
Just days before the murder, he told his brother that US military
intelligence had been following him around continuously and that he was
certain that, sooner or later, he would be killed. According to another
article in www.aztlan.net, the mass graves in various locations in Iraq
contained large numbers of Mexican nationals fighting on the US army
front lines, persons who had been promised US "green cards" and even US
citizenship by unscrupulous US Army recruiters if they were willing to
risk almost certain combat death.
__________________________________________________
These are a few posts from an online military forum:
The website of the Pentagon divides the causalities in Iraq into three
categories:
1)"Combat Casualties" -- 1,300 dead, and 9,000 injured since March,
2003. Both figures are false.
2) "Non-Combat Causalities." The site does not report how many of these
were injured or killed. Last fall, 60 Minutes concluded that the figure
could be around 3,000 killed and over 25,000 injured.
3) "Coalition Causalities." Information under this category was posted
briefly, then deleted. The figures showed 750 killed and 1,034 injured.
It is not clear who these people were. If they were "coalition forces,"
then why are their countries not claiming them?
This:
Well, for starters, MIAs are not counted as fatalities. Those are
called KIAs. Spec Ops guys ARE counted but often the circumstances of
their deaths are classified. As for illegals and guys without families,
what makes you think there is a special category for them?
Everybody has to designate somebody to receive their life insurance,
unpaid wages, and personal property in the event of their deaths.
Before any service member deploys he must update and verify his "Page
2", the service record page that records such data. These pages don't
simply disappear if the guy in question is Spec[ial] Ops or some other
of your special categories.
People might disappear without explanation but paperwork in the
military is eternal. Nothing happens without the paperwork. Nothing.
That last post leads me to believe that if an actual journalist,
someone with resources, balls and determination, filed the right FOIA
requests, we might begin to get some numbers we can trust.
June 2003, from columnist and Vietnam vet James Glaser:
How would you feel if your son was killed in Iraq and your government
refused to count him as a causality of the war? Let us say your son and
his unit were heading down a road at high speed, trying to get to where
some other American troops were under attack and their vehicle flips
over because of bad roads and all are killed.
According to the way Washington counts battle deaths in Iraq, your son
died in an unfortunate accident and is not counted as dying in combat
for his nation. You see, it sounds better if President Bush can say
that only 25 Americans have lost their lives since he said the war was
over on that flight deck thirty miles off our coast.
In reports from Washington and in every major newspaper the smaller
number of combat deaths is reported as the amount of Americans killed
in Iraq since the end of the hostilities, even though the real number
is more than twice as high.
With 25 deaths that is only one every two and a half days, but if they
were honest, they would tell us the real number. Sixty five Americans
have lost their lives since May 1st when we started counting Post War
deaths and that is over one per day. Washington wants to keep these
numbers as low as possible, otherwise Americans might stop supporting
our continued occupation of Iraq.
And that's the crux of it, after all.
If the American people knew it was closer to, say, 4,000 troops dead
and 30,000 wounded, it wouldn't look like such a good trade. It might
even lead people to question the wisdom of starting the same game all
over again in Iran.
And we can't have that, can we?
http://www.rense.com/general63/peen.htm
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
28 Feb 2005 09:17:16 PM |
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Liberals-HATE.America - wrote:
"Jez" <iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMpipex.com> wrote in message
news:fZ6dnZqf-evrLr7fRVnyuA@pipex.net...
Maaxx wrote:
Perhaps it's because so many left-wingers view the war protests in the
sixties as the "glory days" of the liberal movement or because like Ted
Rall, they believe that...
WTF has it to do with alt.atheism ?
We're trying to find out why atheists hate America?
Didn't know they did.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 12:13:33 AM |
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:55:28 -0600, "Liberals-HATE.America -"
<4MOREYRS4@GOD-BLESS-BUSH.COM> drained his beer, leaned back in the
alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
"Jez" <iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMpipex.com> wrote in message
news:fZ6dnZqf-evrLr7fRVnyuA@pipex.net...
Maaxx wrote:
Perhaps it's because so many left-wingers view the war protests in the
sixties as the "glory days" of the liberal movement or because like Ted
Rall, they believe that...
WTF has it to do with alt.atheism ?
We're trying to find out why atheists hate America?
Excuse me? I'm a veteran, passionately patriotic, even serve on
juries without too much bitching, and I'm an atheist.
I'm also a liberal Democrat who owns firearms. Boo!
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 12:15:07 AM |
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:52:06 -0500 (EST), "Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan was
the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and before a
month was out there were liberals in the media who believed we were stuck
in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see what I mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
Sound familar?
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Maaxx" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 01:39:23 AM |
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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
news:p32821dnplov4k759h6g1nkrf43pjdnnaa@4ax.com:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:52:06 -0500 (EST), "Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
drained his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan
was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and before
a month was out there were liberals in the media who believed we were
stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see what I
mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
I guess Germany, Japan, and South Korea are quagmires since we still have
troops there.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 11:30:21 AM |
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Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan
was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and before
a month was out there were liberals in the media who believed we were
stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see what I
mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Maaxx" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 04:17:59 PM |
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(Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:d028rd$23m$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan
was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and
before a month was out there were liberals in the media who believed
we were stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see
what I mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
It *was* a cakewalk.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 11:08:26 PM |
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Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
rfischer@bolt.sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:d028rd$23m$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan
was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and
before a month was out there were liberals in the media who believed
we were stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see
what I mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
It *was* a cakewalk.
It was predicted that the war would cost $50 billion, that oil
revenues would pay for the costs, that Iraqis would be welcoming.
It's actually cost $300 billion (and climbing) and 1500 Americans have
been killed.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "Maaxx" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
02 Mar 2005 10:37:52 AM |
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(Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:d03ho9$a46$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
(Ray Fischer) wrote in
news:d028rd$23m$1@bolt.sonic.net:
Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when
Afghanistan was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7,
2001 and before a month was out there were liberals in the media
who believed we were stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote
and you'll see what I mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an
elusive foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to
scurry across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
It *was* a cakewalk.
It was predicted that the war would cost $50 billion, that oil
revenues would pay for the costs, that Iraqis would be welcoming.
We're talking about Afghanistan.
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| User: "Frank Dwyer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 05:10:19 PM |
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Ray Fischer wrote:
Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan
was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and before
a month was out there were liberals in the media who believed we were
stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see what I
mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
They never predicted a cakewalk.
.
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| User: "Osprey" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 06:02:37 PM |
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"Frank Dwyer" <fdwyer@XcitlinkX.net> wrote in message
news:vD6Vd.178$P15.122@news01.roc.ny...
Ray Fischer wrote:
Maaxx <maaxx@xrs.net> wrote:
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in
"Maaxx" <maaxx@xrs.net>
But we don't even have to go back that far; remember when Afghanistan
was the next Vietnam? Hostilities started on October 7, 2001 and before
a month was out there were liberals in the media who believed we were
stuck in a quagmire. Take a look at this quote and you'll see what I
mean:
American troops are still fighting in Afghanistan. Hunting an elusive
foe in the highlands, where he is protected by being able to scurry
across a border where we can't pursue.
A far cry from the bloodbath some on the left were predicting.
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
They never predicted a cakewalk.
Bush told the American people numerous times that this could be a very long
and difficult war.
.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: Is Iraq Another Vietnam? It's Not Even Close! |
01 Mar 2005 11:14:31 PM |
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Osprey <noneedtoknow@mail.com> wrote:
"Frank Dwyer" <fdwyer@XcitlinkX.net> wrote in message
A far cry from the cakewalk the Bush administration was predicting.
They never predicted a cakewalk.
Bush told the American people numerous times that this could be a very long
and difficult war.
"We've got the forceÊnecessary to deal with the security situation"
Bush
"Iraq will not require sustained aid"
Daniels
"I donÕt know that there is muchÊreconstruction to do"
Rumsfeld
"we are dealing with a countryÊthat can really finance its own
reconstruction"
Wolfowitz
"The American part of this [IraqÊwar] will be $1.7 billion...we
have no plans for anyÊfurther-on funding for this."
Natsios
So far the war has cost $300 billion, 1500 American lives, and the
country is still chaotic.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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