| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
05 Apr 2007 09:10:54 PM |
| Object: |
is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
On Apr 4, 12:15 am, "CafeWriter" <cafewri...@shawRemoveThis.ca> wrote
in "Re: Florida Bishop Slammed for Inaction by Brother of Terry
Schiavo":
You forgot something -Terri wasn't there even through she was breathing and
her heart was beating just fine. It takes more than just a pair of working
lungs and a beating heart to make a person.
Is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"?
Terri didn't have all that so
in other words, her family was trying to keep an empty shell alive for no
other real reasons except to think that she's alive. Yes, she's alive but
when it comes to her mind, no she's not alive.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Sub-persons/ sub-humans are expendable.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1149820884.102362.221630%40u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1139372980.005787.15450%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
applauding those who kill sub-person human embryos
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1153489662.014861.278290%40m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com
cash for sub-persons' organs
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1143252326.064753.206420%40i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com
Put to use killed sub-persons' brains before their cremation.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1143212186.992727.233750%40z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com
Is 'unter-personen' German for 'sub-persons'?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1141269441.235631.242980%40e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com
atheism-adherent Sartre: "everything is permissible if God does not
exist"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1148953550.334506.168420%40j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social
Darwinist vision
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
Mindreader Mitchell: Hitler was "anti-abortion"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1141921380.312364.144060%40i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 10:52:27 AM |
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"Lars Eighner" <usenet@larseighner.com> wrote in message
news:slrnf1rai3.gev.usenet@goodwill.larseighner.com...
In our last episode,
<1176297393.441012.280800@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented broadcast on alt.atheism:
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No. Certainly not if not to term and labor is induced. Of course you do
not seem to realize that this is a breech presentation and the "human
life"
or the mother is probably dead at this point.
I think he's actually referring to a late-term abortion.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 09:02:10 AM |
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On Apr 11, 11:40 pm, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
In our last episode,
<1176297393.441012.280...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented broadcast on alt.atheism:
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Suppose the being-born baby boy's hand is in his mother, with the rest
of his body completely outside of his mother.
Do you think it's OK to kill the boy when his hand-- and only his
hand-- is inside his mother?
Certainly not if not to term and labor is induced. Of course you do
not seem to realize that this is a breech presentation and the "human life"
or the mother is probably dead at this point.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 10:41:17 PM |
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wrote:
On Apr 11, 11:40 pm, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
In our last episode,
<1176297393.441012.280...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and
talented broadcast on alt.atheism:
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Suppose the being-born baby boy's hand is in his mother, with the rest
of his body completely outside of his mother.
Do you think it's OK to kill the boy when his hand-- and only his
hand-- is inside his mother?
And this has happened.....when?
Certainly not if not to term and labor is induced. Of course you do
not seem to realize that this is a breech presentation and the "human life"
or the mother is probably dead at this point.
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
11 Apr 2007 03:33:57 PM |
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On Apr 11, 9:16 am, wrote:
On Apr 6, 11:02 pm,JoshRosenbluth<jrosenbl...@gotcha.comcast.net>
wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 6, 1:25 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
wrote:
Do you think a pre-born human fetus is "a person"?
No.
Do you think a 1-day-old born human infant is "a person"?
I agree with Bob's answers - and to your new one I answer "yes".
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Are you ever going to draw conclusions or this an endless series of
hypotheticals?
Josh Rosenbluth
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
11 Apr 2007 03:40:32 PM |
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In article <1176323637.010807.266920@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> writes:
On Apr 11, 9:16 am, wrote:
On Apr 6, 11:02 pm,JoshRosenbluth<jrosenbl...@gotcha.comcast.net>
wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 6, 1:25 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
wrote:
Do you think a pre-born human fetus is "a person"?
No.
Do you think a 1-day-old born human infant is "a person"?
I agree with Bob's answers - and to your new one I answer "yes".
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Are you ever going to draw conclusions or this an endless series of
hypotheticals?
Now, now, he's using the Socratic method.
Someone fetch the hemlock..
-- cary
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| User: "" |
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| Title: killings done via sedatives and strangulation |
11 Apr 2007 08:54:21 PM |
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On Apr 11, 4:40 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote
Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"?:
In article <1176323637.010807.266...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> writes:
On Apr 11, 9:16 am, wrote:
On Apr 6, 11:02 pm, Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbl...@gotcha.comcast.net>
wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 6, 1:25 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
wrote:
Do you think a pre-born human fetus is "a person"?
No.
Do you think a 1-day-old born human infant is "a person"?
I agree with Bob's answers - and to your new one I answer "yes".
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Are you ever going to draw conclusions or this an endless series of
hypotheticals?
Now, now, he's using the Socratic method.
Someone fetch the hemlock..
Luminal works better.
Wesley Smith in his 1997 _Forced Exit: The Slippery Slope from
Assisted Suicide to Legalized Murder_
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
In early 1939, children born with birth defects or with
congenital diseases began to be killed under the
euthanasia program. These unfortunate children were
admitted to medical clinics by their doctors, where they
would be euthanized. Most of these children were
voluntarily turned over to medical authorities by their
own parents; some (but certainly not all) knew, or at least
suspected, that their disabled children were being sent to
their deaths. New reporting rules made it mandatory for
midwives and doctors to notify authorities when a baby
was born with birth defects. Once the referees
determined that the children were eligible for euthanasia,
they were killed either by intentional starvation or an
overdose of a drug, most typically a sedative called
Luminal. The euphemism of choice for this butchery was
"treatment."
It wasn't long before the list of those eligible to be killed
expanded.
Bare hands can, of course, achieve the same result as Luminal and
starvation.
27 March 2007
'Baby-Drops' Introduced in Germany as Infanticide Cases Spike
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,261588,00.html
BERLIN -- Desperate mothers are being urged to
drop their unwanted babies through hatches at
hospitals in Germany in an effort to halt a spate of
infanticides that has shocked the country.
At least 23 babies have been killed so far this year,
many of them beaten to death or strangled by their
mothers before being dumped on wasteland and in
dustbins.
Strangulation isn't limited to the newly born. Below appears the
remark, "I suspect that Michael strangled Terri, resulting in Terri's
neck injury and in her collapse on 25 February 1990."
Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian, atheistic a-moral climate
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.069039.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
2005 _Silent Witness: The Untold Story of Terri Schiavo's Death_
by Mark Fuhrman
http://www.amazon.com/Silent-Witness-Untold-Story-Schiavos/dp/0060853379
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Below is draft 4 of the chronology of events, which is basically the
same as draft 3. To get to it quickly, do a "control - f"/ find twice
for: draft 4
Contents
People acquainted with Terri and/ or Michael
Medical individuals' reports
Other
Draft 4 of Chronology of Events
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
People acquainted with Terri and/ or Michael
9 May 2001 Trudy Capone re: pre-Feb-1993 malpractice settlement
timeframe and after the settlement
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aldurF67edg6U1%40individual.net
August 2003 C. Johnson re: about 1993, post-settlement
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aqd2vF6bflpbU1%40individual.net
December 2003 Carla Sauer Iyer, who
worked from April 1995 to 11 August 1996
where Terri was
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3al49lF6ajhdbU1%40individual.net
September 2003 Heidi Law, who worked at a
Terri nursing home from March 1997 to mid-summer of 1997
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3am3raF6b8ckoU1%40individual.net
March 2004 affidavit of Heidi Law
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3b14leF6hsrb0U1%40individual.net
2005 Nora Wagner: Terri Feels Pain
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504091947.7ef10df3%40posting.google.com
Terri caregiver video clips
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0504201401.42d3081e%40posting.google.com
difference between a "nurse" and a "nursing assistant"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=d3k74e%24dpde%241%40news3.infoave.net
Jackie Rhodes and Bobby Schindler re: Terri's pre-collapse talk of
divorcing Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
Michael Schiavo ex-girlfriend Cindy speaks;
Terri's responsiveness
Terri's wishes
changes in Michael's demeanor
Cindy's fear of Michael
Michael's meanness, especially verbal meanness
malpractice trial fraud
Cats
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504151723.4c0b915e%40posting.google.com
aka
http://tinyurl.com/dpueu
Suzanne Vitadamo (Terri's sister) and Bobby Schindler (Terri's
brother)
recall Michael Schiavo incidents
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3b0vmaF6d73p3U1%40individual.net
Terri made a partially-successful attempt to say "I want to live":
declarations of Suzanne Vitadamo (Terri's sister) and Schindler
attorney Barbara J. Weller
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3amonmF6b3vb2U1%40individual.net
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43383
27 June 1990 Terri Schiavo exam at Bayfront Medical Center by or for
Dr. Baras
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504201751.4e8392c7%40posting.google.com
NEUROLOGICAL: Patient is awake. She does give eye
contact to family members. She will close her eyes to any
threatening response around her face and blink appropriately.
Tracking is inconsistent. There was no verbal output during
this exam but it has been reported by husband and other family
members and therapists over at College Harbor. No voluntary
movement as far as on command at this time. Sensory: She
does respond to painful stimulation....
17 June 1991 Mediplex Rehab notes (and 15 & 28 March 1991 notes on
Terri's responsiveness)
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504211205.469167b6%40posting.google.com
Cognitive/Communication
No significant changes.
Vocalizing when prone in P.T.
Occ. will say "STOP" to nursing during
procedures. to T.R. groups. More relaxed
to therapist's voice, touch (habituation).
November 1992 medical malpractice trial testimony of Michael,
November 1993 Michael deposition in guardianship hearing,
16 July 1993 letter to Michael from Bob and Mary Schindler
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
In a November 1993 guardianship hearing, Michael admitted he wanted to
[questioner]"allow her to die"/ kill Terri by ordering that she not be
treated for a urinary tract infection. [?: how could he have been
allowed to remain guardian after that? Who let Michael remain
guardian?]
Terri was a Catholic. Ref:
September 2003 Heidi Law, who worked at a Terri nursing home from
March
1997 to mid-summer of 1997
13. I witnessed a priest visiting Terri a couple of times. Terri
would become quiet when he prayed with her. She couldn't
bow her head because of her stiff neck, but she would still try.
During the prayer, she would keep her eyes closed, opening
them afterward. She laughed at jokes he told her. I definitely
know that Terri "is in there."
(+also see 1998 GAL report)
Michael psychiatrist Dr. Peter Kaplan
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504171011.6149892b%40posting.google.com
[?: does Prozac help cause violent behavior?]
"Terri Schiavo's Husband Fits Profile of Wife Abuser, Per
Psychiatrist"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0503290416.5b78b1c1%40posting.google.com
21 February 2005 Bonnie Chernin Rogoff: "Michael Schiavo: Loving
Husband or Monster?"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=42472D56.FFCA581C%40pop.dcn.davis.ca.us
Zimp website:
* some links to items from http://www.zimp.org/stuff
* St. Petersburg Police Department, February 25, 1990 police report
from the night of Terri's collapse
* Filed police report, requesting investigation and subsequent
response by the St. Petersburg Police
* Filed Complaint, requesting investigation and subsequent response
* Evidence surfaces that Michael Schiavo sought information possibly
on funeral arrangements for Terri as early as 1993
* Northside Hospital discharge summary records explain that the
doctors involved with diagnosing what happened to Terri Schiavo were
mystified with what caused her to collapse
* Dr. Peter Bambakidis testimony that heart attack wasn't cause for
Terri's collapse
* Dr. Peter Bambakidis testimony on Terri's neck injury
* Dr. William Hammesfahr testimony on Terri's neck injury
* "On the Record" with Greta van Susteren Interview with Dr. Michael
Baden, Forensic Pathologist
* Humana Discharge Summary, Terri's neck was "somewhat stiff"
* Dr. Hamilton, Orthopedic Surgeon, consults Terri a short time after
her collapse, on February 25, 1990
* Michael Schiavo Appointed Terri's Guardian
* Michael Schiavo's attorney meets with Terri's parents, Bob and Mary
Schindler, soon after Terri's collapse.
* Michael Richard Schiavo
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504291302.1555fba6%40posting.google.com
On the morning Terri collapsed, Michael told a
police officer that he and Terri hadn't had any big fights recently:
[police report of 25 February 1990]"they have had no major arguments
lately." Do you think that in his remark to the police officer,
Michael:
told the truth?
told incorrect information, not knowing it was incorrect?
lied?
25 February 1990 police report
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504211017.6035d4ca%40posting.google.com
Jackie Rhodes and Bobby Schindler re: Terri's pre-collapse talk of
divorcing Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
Medical persons reports
23 March 2005 William Cheshire affidavit: someone is there; Terri can
anticipate and feel pain
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1%40individual.net
September 2002 neurologist William Hammesfahr report
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aq5f3F6dhsi9U1%40individual.net
August 2003 Alexander Gimon affidavit
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3am219F6b8bn7U1%40individual.net
May 2001 affidavits of medical persons Jacob Green, Richard Neubauer,
and William Scott Russell
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aqf0iF6b1v27U1%40individual.net
21 November 2003 Dr. Walker bone scan deposition
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ar75pF6ai55hU1%40individual.net
aka
http://tinyurl.com/b52cz
++ maybe: speech pathologist Sara Green Mele, linked from
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Other
Much excellent reporting, including
"Analysis You Be The Judge: Was
Terri Schindler-Schiavo A Strangulation Victim?"
linked to from
http://theempirejournal.com/greer_schiavo_articles.htm
Before she was starved to death, Terri Schindler Schiavo could be fed
by hand. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504230407.446f9413%40posting.google.com
Judge Greer ruled in one of his sicker rulings that Terri's parents
couldn't give her food and water by hand: Greer PDF at
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/030805orderdenyfood.pdf
$400,000 windfall for Michael's lawyer George Felos, with more loot on
the way given a Terri death-by-starvation
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504051123.408d5946%40posting.google.com
aka
http://tinyurl.com/7kdy7
12-2003 Report of Guardian Ad Litem Jay Wolfson
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aq8htF6d3178U1%40individual.net
++ to do: error-laden 1998 GAL report
Cal Thomas: "Schiavo case matters in symbol and
Substance"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Phyllis Schlafly's "Next We Should Starve The Courts"
http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2005/apr05/05-04-13.html
Letter from Greer's pastor to Greer
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/3f35fd68bc80fb1a?
Greer addressed, liked by Unitarians
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/a2e014f97215e7f3?
lack of parallels between case of DeLay's father and Terri
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/1b9756e43f0776eb?
elected state and national legislatures are superfluous
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aenpiF69fl4rU1%40individual.net
Senator Joe Lieberman (D-CT) supported Terri
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141202.31ec7f3b%40posting.google.com
aka
http://tinyurl.com/8gjwl
Nat Hentoff
"Lying about Terri Schiavo"
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10715
Terri Schiavo: Judicial Murder
Her crime was being disabled, voiceless, and at the disposal of our
media
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0513,hentoff,62489,6.html
Was Terri Schiavo Beaten in 1990?
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0347,hentoff,48738,6.html
Polls distort Terri's life and death
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hentoff1.asp
Cast of Characters page: shows many of the conflicts of interest
http://myopiczeal.blogsome.com/2005/03/25/cast-of-characters-in-the-schiavo-case/
Judi McLeod's "Mainstream media unreported conflicts
of interest in Schiavo tragedy"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504070722.4ececd46%40posting.google.com
Eric Cohen's "How Liberalism Failed Terri Schiavo"
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/408ytxle.asp
"$1 million turned family to enemies"
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/story/4723425p-4359997c.html
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
Cast of Characters in the Case
http://myopiczeal.blogsome.com/2005/03/25/cast-of-characters-in-the-schiavo-case/
Do you think that in Michael's remark [police report of 25 February
1990]"they [Michael and Terri] have had no major arguments lately" to
the police officer, Michael: told the truth? told incorrect
information, not knowing it was incorrect? lied?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0504221149.3a3371f4%40posting.google.com
picture of Terri's will
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v660/NotATomato/TerrisWill.gif
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Draft 4 of Chronology of Events
Hypothesis of physical and verbal abuse of Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Note: Terri's collapse occurred on 25 February 1990, not in November
as I have at times stated.
++ add items to timeline from:
Much excellent reporting, including
"Analysis You Be The Judge: Was
Terri Schindler-Schiavo A Strangulation Victim?"
linked to from
http://theempirejournal.com/greer_schiavo_articles.htm
Zimp website
http://www.zimp.org/stuff
++
1963:
Both Michael and Terri were born in 1963.
about 1984:
Terri's brother recalls a Michael Schiavo incident
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3b0vmaF6d73p3U1%40individual.net
One experience that I had with Michael was at the beginning of
his relationship with Terri, around 1984. I have no recollection
what the details of the argument were, but do remember that we
got into a very heated disagreement in the family room of our
house while we were living in Philadelphia. Terri and my
girlfriend at the time were in the room as well. I remember
distinctly that Michael got so upset that he suddenly snapped,
and grabbed me by the throat and threw me down on the couch,
had one hand around my neck and the other was in the air ready
to punch me in the face. I couldn't move and I don't know
what would have resulted if it weren't for Terri and my
girlfriend screaming at him to let me go. In hindsight this is
something that I should have taken very seriously, and paid
more attention to, but I remember that Terri asked me to please
not tell our parents because it would upset them too much.
10 November 1984:
Michael and Terri married on 10 November 1984 at the age of about 21.
To illustrate for Terri:
16 July 1993 letter to Michael from Bob and Mary Schindler
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
Regardless of your rationale, we believe you have a moral
responsibility to include us in determining Terri's welfare. Lest
you forget, we did raise her for 21 years, and also, from the
time of Terri's seizure up to when you chose to alienate us,
Mary was continually at your side, caring for you and Terri.
About 1988:
They very much wanted a child, and started fertility services and
counseling that lasted for over 1 year, without Terri telling her
parents. [?: did Michael order her to not seek guidance from her
parents? Michael was very controlling, even monitoring Terri's car
usage by checking odometer readings. Ref:
Jackie Rhodes re: Terri's pre-collapse talk of divorcing Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
We [Terri and I] used to go shopping. I used to go and pick her
up, as Michael monitored the amount of miles she put on the
car, so I usually drove. We would go shopping, run errands, or
go see her grandmother.
pre-25 February 1990 collapse: marital problems:
1. Terri told her close friend Jackie Rhodes that Terri and Michael
had financial problems. Ref:
Jackie Rhodes re: Terri's pre-collapse talk of divorcing Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
Theresa and I are the same age. We had a lot of things in
common. When I came to work for Prudential, I think Michael
had just left one employer or was unemployed or recently
gained employment and they were having some financial
problems living on one income.
2. Terri told her mother that she no longer loved Michael and was
considering a divorce
3. Terri told her close friend Jackie Rhodes and her brother Bobby
Schindler that she was thinking of divorcing Michael. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
4. I suspect that the infertility caused trouble in the marriage
5. I suspect that there was physical abuse.
During a deposition of the person that did a bone scan (the referring
doctor had said to look for indications of trauma), the questioner
asked the bone scan person what could have caused an
extremely-suspicious injury to the middle of the femur bone.
24 February 1990: afternoon
Jackie Rhodes re: Terri's pre-collapse talk of divorcing Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
The last time I spoke to Terri was February 24th
of 1990. It had been a big joke that week at work
because she was going for a hair appointment on
Saturday and she had dyed her hair blond. Her
hair was normally blond, although she naturally
had very dark hair. She had to decide whether or
not she wanted to stay a blond or if she was going
to go back to her natural color. So I called her
Saturday afternoon and asked her, well, are we a
blond or brunette? She said "I'm still a blond." But
she was very, very upset when I was talking to
her. It sounded like she had been crying. I asked
her if she was okay. She said she had a fight with
Michael. That he was extremely upset with her
because she had spent, I think she told me $80, on
her hair that day to stay blond. So I asked her if
she wanted me to come over. She didn't seem like
her normal, jovial self. She said "that's okay. I'm
going over to Bobby's." I said are you sure. She
was very upset. She said "I'm going to Bobby's. I
already talked to him and am going to go over as
soon as we get off the phone."
24 February 1990: dinnertime: I heard a Terri friend recently say on
the radio that she and Terri and Terri's parents had a good time
together and ate good food together the night before Terri's collapse.
25 February 1990: the next day early morning at around 6 a.m.: Terri
collapsed.
On the morning Terri collapsed, Michael lied in telling a police
officer that he and Terri hadn't had any big fights recently: compare
Jackie above and [police report of 25 February 1990]"they have had no
major arguments lately."
25 February 1990 police report
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504211017.6035d4ca%40posting.google.com
I've lower-capped the all-caps. A paragraph:
Michael stated he doesn't know what could be
wrong with Theresa. There haven't been any
problems at home which would lead to her
wanting to try suicide and they have had no major
arguments lately. She is allergic to certain items
but knows what not to ingest. She doesn't have a
history of heart disease. She has had recent
"female" problems and is seeing her gynecologist
on a regular basis. She has been tired lately and
not feeling well.
25 February 1990: Terri admitted to Humana Hospital--Northside with
"NECK: Somewhat stiff. All other muscles of the body were also
stiff." Discharge summary report
==URL?
PHYSICAL EXAMINATION: At the time of admission,
revealed an unresponsive decerebrating young white female
on a ventilator. VITAL SIGNS: Blood pressure 90 systolic on
Dopamine drip. Respirations on the ventilator 12 per minute,
without any assistance by herself. Heart rate was 130 with
tachycardia with occasional PVC's. HEENT: Pupils were
unreactive. NECK: Somewhat stiff. All other muscles of the
body were also stiff. LUNGS:....
shortly after Terri's collapse:
"Terri Schiavo's Husband Fits Profile of Wife Abuser, Per
Psychiatrist"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0503290416.5b78b1c1%40posting.google.com
....Michael argued with Terri's sister, Susanne, and Michael
tried to attack her. This occurred right after Terri's collapse,
when they were all in a house together.
Compare
Suzanne Vitadamo (Terri's sister) and Bobby Schindler (Terri's
brother)
recall Michael Schiavo incidents
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3b0vmaF6d73p3U1%40individual.net
I suspect that Michael strangled Terri, resulting in Terri's neck
injury and in her collapse on 25 February 1990. Michael had an
overbearing, in your face manner of speaking. Ref:
December 2003 Carla Sauer Iyer, who
worked from April 1995 to 11 August 1996
where Terri was
14. While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal
safety. This was due to Michael's constant intimidation,
including his menacing body language, vocal tone and
mannerisms.
Perhaps they had a heated argument perhaps stemming from their
monetary
or infertility woes and/or from Terri talking of divorcing Michael.
Perhaps during the argument, Michael came at Terri and reached out and
strangled her.
Compare:
especially Bobby, in
Bobby Schindler (Terri's brother) recalls Michael Schiavo incident
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3b0vmaF6d73p3U1%40individual.net
2002 report of neurologist William Hammesfahr
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aq5f3F6dhsi9U1%40individual.net
The neck exam was abnormal. She had severe limitation
of range of motion in the flexion, and to a lesser degree in
extension. Indeed, I was able to pick up her entire torso
and head and neck area with pressure on the back of her
neck in the suboccipital region. These findings of cervical
spasm and limitation of range of motion are consistent
with a neck injury. No bruits were identified. ....
Interestingly, I have seen this pattern of mixed brain
(cerebral) and spinal cord findings in a patient once
before, a patient who was asphyxiated.
Jackie Rhodes and Bobby Schindler re: Terri's pre-collapse talk of
divorcing Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504141702.67189475%40posting.google.com
I suspect that Michael caused much if not all of the trauma revealed
in
Terri's bone scan. Among Terri's trauma discussed during the bone
scan
deposition, there is talk of broken ribs, a broken back, and a broken
or bruised femur bone. Ref:
21 November 2003 Dr. Walker bone scan deposition
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ar75pF6ai55hU1%40individual.net
4 April 1990:
page five of discharge summary report:
The patient was also seen by Dr. Barras [sic] for
rehabilitation on 4/04/90.
5 or 6 May 1990:
someone (probably Nancy Abrahamsen, MD) in some way examined Terri's
knee (perhaps using a "PORTABLE KNEE P?I?GHT") and wrote:
RIGHT KNEE:
AP AND LATERAL VIEWS:
The bones comprising the right knee are intact with no
fracture, dislocation or other focal bony abnormality.
IMPRESSION: NO BONY ABNORMALITY.
6 May 1990:
page five of discharge summary report:
She was initially [sic] seen
on 5/06/90 by orthopedic surgeon, Dr. Hamilton.
9 May 1990:
Terri discharged from hospital.
Ref:
==URL?
14 May 1990:
a Terri document with Dr. Samir Shah's signature mentions "EFFUSION OF
JOINT, LOWER LEG" (which is what, ankle or knee? I would think knee.)
A _Merriam-Webster's_ definition of "effusion" is "the escape of a
fluid from anatomical vessels by rupture or exudation." Compare
"EFFUSION OF JOINT, LOWER LEG" with this from the 5 March 1991 bone
scan:
There are an extensive number of focal abnormal
areas of nuclide accumulation of intense type. These
include... both knees, and both ankles, right greater
than left.
Bone scan picture:
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schiavo-1991-bonescan.jpg
The 5 or 6 May 1990 examination (see above in the timeline) was of
Terri's right knee-- compare [5 March 1991 bone scan]"both knees, and
both ankles, right greater than left."
27 June 1990 Terri Schiavo exam at Bayfront Medical Center by or for
Dr. Baras
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504201751.4e8392c7%40posting.google.com
NEUROLOGICAL: Patient is awake. She does give eye
contact to family members. She will close her eyes to any
threatening response around her face and blink appropriately.
Tracking is inconsistent. There was no verbal output during
this exam but it has been reported by husband and other family
members and therapists over at College Harbor. No voluntary
movement as far as on command at this time. Sensory: She
does respond to painful stimulation....
29 January 1991: Terri probably received by Mediplex Rehab, which had
Dr. Carnahan on staff. See
17 June 1991 Mediplex Rehab notes
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504211205.469167b6%40posting.google.com
5 March 1991: about 12 months post-collapse: Dr. Carnahan requested
a
bone scan and asked the bone-scan person (Dr. Walker) to look for
evidence of trauma; the bone scan revealed broken ribs, a broken back,
and a broken or bruised femur bone, among other injuries. Chances are
good that the trauma seen in the bone scan occurred at most 18 months
prior to the bone-scan of 5 March 1991.
Ref:
21 November 2003 Dr. Walker bone scan deposition
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ar75pF6ai55hU1%40individual.net
15 & 28 March 1991 notes on Terri's responsiveness
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504211205.469167b6%40posting.google.com
17 June 1991 Mediplex Rehab notes
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504211205.469167b6%40posting.google.com
Cognitive/Communication
No significant changes.
Vocalizing when prone in P.T.
Occ. will say "STOP" to nursing during
procedures. to T.R. groups. More relaxed
to therapist's voice, touch (habituation).
Following the 25 February 1990 collapse, Michael at first saw to it
that Terri received rehabilitative treatments, for example, an
experimental implant that stimulated the brain. [?: good behavior
because of guilt over the strangulation's results?]
Late 1991: Michael began involvement in an intimate 1-year
relationship with Cindy. The two spent a weekend at the Don Caesar
hotel in St. Petersburg Beach and they contacted a Century 21 Realtor
on the premise of purchasing a home.
May 1992, at the apex of the romance: Michael had Terri's 2 pet cats
euthanized to clear the way for his moving in with Cindy and her pet
dog.
Summer 1992: Michael moved into his parents' home in preparation for
the malpractice trial.
August 1992: Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice 'out-of-court'
settlement. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
November 1992 medical malpractice trial: Michael lies in claiming
loyalty to Terri and his marriage vows after having lived with
girlfriend Cindy and having practically pursued Trudy. The bone scan
report revealing much Terri trauma isn't revealed to the doctors being
sued.
Ref for much of "Late 1991" on, above:
1) November 1992 medical malpractice trial testimony of Michael,
November 1993 Michael deposition in guardianship hearing
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
2) Michael Schiavo ex-girlfriend Cindy speaks
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504151723.4c0b915e%40posting.google.com
Michael sued two infertility doctors for in the range of
$16,000,000-$20,000,000. [?: an early sign of a streak of
greediness?]
During settlement proceedings, he promised to take care of Terri until
death parted them, and reaffirmed his marriage vows.
Ref:
November 1992 medical malpractice trial testimony of Michael
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
November 1992: "Nov 1992 - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice
trial.
Nov 1992 - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial."
From
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
$400,000 windfall for Michael's lawyer George Felos, with more loot on
the way given a Terri death-by-starvation:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From
http://www.zimp.org/stuff/contradictions.htm
NOTE: In 11/31/1993 Petition Schiavo alleges 6/8/1993 guardianship
asset balance as $761,507.50
Atty Gwyneth Stanley - $10,668.05
Atty Deborah Bushnell - $65,607.00
Atty Steve Nilson - $7,404.95
Atty Pacarek - $1,500.00
Atty Richard Pearse - $4,511.95
Atty George Felos - $397,249.99
Other
1st Union/South Trust Bank $55,459.85
Michael Schiavo $10,929.95
Total $545,852.34
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Since Terri has no will, if she dies, Michael would get $750,000.
January or February 1993: the settlement money was paid out.
14 February 1993: Michael and the Schindlers had a big falling out.
Ref:
" $1 million turned family to enemies"
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/story/4723425p-4359997c.html
On Valentine's Day in 1993, Michael brought two dozen roses
to Terri's bedside in a nursing home, and was looking forward
to dinner with his in-laws. But when Bob Schindler walked into
the room, a fight suddenly broke out, both men recalled.
The father demanded to know how much money he would be
getting from Michael's share of the settlement [sounds like a
Michael lie]; he also asked him to repay $10,000 in moving
expenses, Michael recollected.
Schindler recalled the fight differently, saying he wanted to
know why Michael suddenly seemed reluctant to treat an
infection that Terri had developed; he became irate when his
son-in-law said his wife might never recover.
Both men threw chairs at each other. Michael shoved a table at
Schindler. The father and son-in-law put up their fists and
began shouting. Mary, shaken by the show of anger, stood
between the two men and physically separated them.
Compare
Suzanne Vitadamo (Terri's sister) and Bobby Schindler (Terri's
brother)
recall Michael Schiavo incidents
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3b0vmaF6d73p3U1%40individual.net
16 July 1993: letter to Michael from Bob and Mary Schindler
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
November 1993: Michael deposition in guardianship hearing.
Ref:
November 1993 Michael deposition in guardianship hearing
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
Michael wanted Terri dead for the three quarters of a million:
1) Michael ordered that Terri receive _no_ rehabilitation starting
sometime in 1993, contrary to Terri's doctor's orders [how could that
have happened in our health care system? Where else has this
happened?]
August 2003 C. Johnson re: about 1993, post-settlement
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aqd2vF6bflpbU1%40individual.net
4. I asked why Terri was not up in a chair, too. I learned, as
part of my training, that there was a family dispute and that the
husband, as guardian, wanted no rehabilitation for Terry. This
surprised me, as I did not think a guardian could go against a
doctor's orders like that, but I was assured that a guardian could
and that this guardian had gone against Terri's doctor's orders.
....
6. I remember seeing Michael Schiavo only once the entire
time I worked at Sabal Palms, but we were all aware that Terri
was not to be given any kind of rehabilitative help, per his
instructions. Once, I wanted to put a cloth in Tern's hand to
keep her hand from closing in on itself, but I was not permitted
to do this, as Michael Schiavo considered that to be a form of
rehabilitation.
Michael verbally abused Terri behind locked doors-- and worse-- which
resulted in Terri becoming emotionally distraught and withdrawn
thereafter. Ref:
September 2003 Heidi Law, who worked at a
Terri nursing home from March 1997 to mid-summer of 1997
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3am3raF6b8ckoU1%40individual.net
4. I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or
any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for
rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though
they were ordered, Michael would stop them. Michael ordered
that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy.
I and Olga would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we
knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so. We usually
did this behind closed doors, we were so fearful of being
caught. Our hearts would race and we were always looking out
for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael
take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri.
We spoke of this many times.
2) Michael refused to allow antibiotics being used to treat Terri's
urinary tract infections, a decision that resulted in Terri having to
go to the hospital for urinary sepsis. Michael relented. Ref:
November 1993 Michael deposition in guardianship hearing,
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504120707.279a9dc8%40posting.google.com
3) Michael put a "do not resuscitate" order on Terri starting sometime
in 1993 or 1994-- most extraordinary considering her age and
condition.
Ref:
September 2003 Heidi Law, who worked at a
Terri nursing home from March 1997 to mid-summer of 1997
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3am3raF6b8ckoU1%40individual.net
14. The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed
that a "Do Not Resuscitate" order had been put on Terri's chart,
considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her
surroundings.
12-2003 Report of Guardian Ad Litem Jay Wolfson
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aq8htF6d3178U1%40individual.net
In early 1994 [no, early 1993] Theresa contracted a urinary tract
infection and Michael, in consultation with Theresa's treating
physician [true? Probably another Michael lie], elected not
to treat the infection and simultaneously imposed a "do not
resuscitate" order should Theresa experience cardiac arrest.
When the nursing facility initiated an intervention to challenge
this decision, Michael cancelled the orders. Following the
incident involving the infection, Theresa was transferred to
another skilled nursing facility.
4) words of his as relayed by nurses in affidavits:
nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, in
Michael Schiavo ex-girlfriend Cindy speaks
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504151723.4c0b915e%40posting.google.com
5) Michael gave Terri 5 injections behind locked doors [see Carla in
URL 3 lines above]
6) In a November 1993 guardianship hearing, Michael admitted he
wanted
to [questioner]"allow her to die"/ kill Terri by ordering that she not
be treated for a urinary tract infection. [?: how could he have been
allowed to remain guardian after that?]
1997: i.e. 6 years after the collapse: Michael talks about
disconnecting the feeding tube.
Terri can swallow and eat on her own, yet in keeping with his cruel
anti-rehabilitation-treatment stance, Michael wouldn't let Terri get
off the feeding tube. Ref:
especially jello in
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504230407.446f9413%40posting.google.com
May 1998: over 1 year later: Michael filed court papers in which he
alleges he 'remembers' that she told him she wouldn't want to be on
life support. Michael is lying:
1) inaction for 7 years (well, there was the 1993 attempt on her life
with ordering that the infection not be treated, so perhaps better:
inaction for 3 years)
2) 9 May 2001 Trudy Capone re: pre-Feb-1993 malpractice settlement
timeframe and after the settlement
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aldurF67edg6U1%40individual.net
[4] KRT asked me if Schiavo ever confided in me
regarding Terri's care. I told her that Michael confided in
me all the time about Terri. I did say, "I will tell you one
thing: Michael never knew what Terri wanted. He never
knew." He would say to me all the time, "I don't know
what to do. I don't know that to do with her. I just don't
know." I told KRT that if he said anything different he
was a liar and that he said to me many times that he had
no idea what her wishes were.
Michael about Terri's care, as related by ex-girlfriend Cindy
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504151723.4c0b915e%40posting.google.com
"How the hell should I know we never spoke
about this, my God I was only 25 years old.
How the hell should I know? We were
young. We never spoke of this."
3) 'life-support' doesn't mean 'food and water' in ordinary language
4) Michael had a motive of obtaining the $750,000.
Compare
Trudy's testimony that: he wanted the money and the money changed
him,
in
Michael Schiavo ex-girlfriend Cindy speaks
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504151723.4c0b915e%40posting.google.com
5) Suggestive: she is Catholic, suggesting that she would avoid an
option that amounts to suicide.
September 2003 Heidi Law, who worked at a Terri nursing home from
March
1997 to mid-summer of 1997
13. I witnessed a priest visiting Terri a couple of times. Terri
would become quiet when he prayed with her. She couldn't
bow her head because of her stiff neck, but she would still try.
During the prayer, she would keep her eyes closed, opening
them afterward. She laughed at jokes he told her. I definitely
know that Terri "is in there."
(+also see 1998 GAL report)
6) Terri friend Diane Meyer testified that Terri commented on the
situation of Karen Ann Quinlan as saying that: as long as there is
life there is hope and opposing Karen being killed (Karen was at one
point on a respirator). [?: Greer, what you were thinking in
discounting that testimony?]
7) On 18 March 05, Terri tried to say "I want to live," but couldn't
say the "n," which she historically had trouble saying:
nurse Carla Sauer Iyer:
Terri would try to say the word "pain"
when she was in discomfort, but it came
out more like "pay". She didn't say the
"n" sound very well.
Vitadamo affidavit:
Mrs. Weller begged Terri to try to say, "I want to live."
Terri's eyes opened wide, she looked at Mrs. Weller with
great concentration and said, "Ahhhhhhh." Then, with
great effort, she screamed, "Waaaaaaaa" so loudly that....
Weller affidavit:
....she looked me square in the face, and with a look
of great concentration, she said, "Ahhhhhhh." Then,
seeming to summon up all the strength she had, she
virtually screamed, "Waaaaaaaa." She yelled so loudly
that....
Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3amonmF6b3vb2U1%40individual.net
[?: Greer: how is it that you ignored this?]
Terri's parents want guardianship of Terri, but Michael won't divorce
because he wants the $700,000+: to divorce means to forego a cool
$700,000+ gross upon her death.
$400,000 windfall for Michael's lawyer George Felos, with more loot on
the way given a Terri death-by-starvation
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504051123.408d5946%40posting.google.com
In 1998, he admits to having had 2 romantic relationships with other
women.[98 GAL report]
As of 2005, Michael has fathered 2 children with another woman, yet he
still won't divorce Terri.
2002 report of neurologist William Hammesfahr.
2005: Michael still wants Terri dead, reportedly even turning down
$1,000,000 if he'd only stop trying to kill her via starvation.
Perhaps Michael was afraid that Terri would receive rehabilitation and
speak and implicate him in:
physical abuse before 25 February 1990,
25 February 1990 strangulation/ attempted murder,
5 attempts at murder via insulin injection,
cruel verbal abuse and cruel anti-rehabilitation stance following the
February 1993 settlement payments.
31 March 2005: Terri dies an "extremely agonizing death."
2003 Wesley J. Smith's "A 'Painless' Death?"
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/370oqiwy.asp?pg=1
WHAT HAPPENS to non-terminally ill people with
cognitive disabilities whose feeding tubes are
removed? Do they suffer from the process?
When I conducted research on this question in
preparation for writing my book "Forced Exit," I
asked St. Louis neurologist William Burke these
very questions. Here is what he told me:
A conscious [cognitively disabled] person would
feel it just as you or I would. They will go into
seizures. Their skin cracks, their tongue cracks, their
lips crack. They may have nosebleeds because of the
drying of the mucus membranes, and heaving and
vomiting might ensue because of the drying out of
the stomach lining. They feel the pangs of hunger
and thirst. Imagine going one day without a glass of
water! Death by dehydration takes ten to fourteen
days. It is an extremely agonizing death.
?: for what motivation did Michael want Terri's body after her
starvation death and cremation of it with no autopsy? To hide any
potential evidence of the broken back and neck injury, probably
received 25 February 1990 at Michael's hands?
?: at some point, Michael refused to let the Schindlers see Terri's
medical records. Were all the medical records released to the
Schindlers? What was Michael hiding?
?: does Michael have a common-law marriage with the woman he fathered
2
children with? Whether yes or no, be should have been stripped of his
guardianship on the grounds of: bigamy, or adultery. Michael should
have been tossed as guardian long ago-- how did the courts allow him
to
remain guardian?
?: how did Terri's trust fund money get used up? How did Michael gain
access to the funds, and use at least $300,000 of the funds in his
legal battles with the Schindlers? Did Greer give Michael that access
to the funds?
" $1 million turned family to enemies"
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/story/4723425p-4359997c.html
There is little left of the $750,000 that was set aside to pay for
Terri's medical care, according to court records. About $40,000
to $50,000 remains as of mid-March, said Deborah Bushnell,
one of Schiavo's attorneys.
Some of it has gone for Terri's hospitalization, though much of
the cost-- estimated at $80,000 per year-- is picked up by the
nonprofit Woodside Hospice, where Terri has been for five
years. The balance has been paid for by Florida Medicaid.
More than $300,000 has gone to pay for Schiavo's legal costs.
Bushnell got $65,000 in from of the 1993 malpractice lawsuit
settlement
payments. Ref:
$400,000 windfall for Michael's lawyer George Felos, with more loot on
the way given a Terri death-by-starvation
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504051123.408d5946%40posting.google.com
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
11 Apr 2007 08:30:38 PM |
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On Apr 11, 4:33 pm, wrote:
On Apr 11, 9:16 am, wrote:
On Apr 6, 11:02 pm, Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbl...@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 6, 1:25 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
wrote:
Do you think a pre-born human fetus is "a person"?
No.
Do you think a 1-day-old born human infant is "a person"?
I agree with Bob's answers - and to your new one I answer "yes".
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Are you ever going to draw conclusions or this an endless series of
hypotheticals?
The latter.
That wasn't a hypothetical. Are you familiar with what's involved in
partial-birth abortion?
Suppose the being-born baby boy's hand is in his mother, with the rest
of his body completely outside of his mother.
Do you think it's OK to kill the boy when his hand-- and only his
hand-- is inside his mother?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Partial Birth Abortion Diagrams
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html
Boxer to Santorum: "I Am Not Answering These Questions!"
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/notansweringboxersantorum.html
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
11 Apr 2007 10:26:22 PM |
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<dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
On Apr 11, 4:33 pm, wrote:
On Apr 11, 9:16 am, wrote:
On Apr 6, 11:02 pm, Josh Rosenbluth <jrosenbl...@gotcha.comcast.net> wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 6, 1:25 pm, Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote:
wrote:
Do you think a pre-born human fetus is "a person"?
No.
Do you think a 1-day-old born human infant is "a person"?
I agree with Bob's answers - and to your new one I answer "yes".
Do you think a human life in the process of exiting from his mother,
with his head in his mother's vagina and the rest of his body
completely outside of his mother, is "a person"?
No.
Are you ever going to draw conclusions or this an endless series of
hypotheticals?
The latter.
That wasn't a hypothetical. Are you familiar with what's involved in
partial-birth abortion?
Yes, and your characterization was the usual pro-liar sleaze that has
no relation to the truth.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 08:44:30 AM |
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On Apr 11, 11:26 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
Are you familiar with what's involved in
partial-birth abortion?
Yes,
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
and your characterization was the usual pro-liar sleaze that has
no relation to the truth.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Partial Birth Abortion Diagrams
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 10:20:30 AM |
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<dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
Are you familiar with what's involved in
partial-birth abortion?
Yes,
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Yes.
and your characterization was the usual pro-liar sleaze that has
no relation to the truth.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Partial Birth Abortion Diagrams
http://www.nrlc.org/
That national right to lie crap isn't a credible source. They're liars.
IDE abortions doesn't happen during delivery. In fact it's not a
late-term procedure at all. It's only done up to about the 7th month.
It's done rarely, and it's done so that the fetus doesn't have to be
cut up into tiny pieces.
Pro-liars tend to project their own evil onto others, but this
procedure is done for good reasons and not because people like to kill
infants.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "LarsensAttack BayonetVariation.net" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 11:55:13 AM |
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wrote:
On Apr 11, 11:26 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
Are you familiar with what's involved in
partial-birth abortion?
Yes,
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Can you provide facts and figures depicting the number of these that
were carried by year out on a per state basis plus the motive
for carrying out the procedure, e.g. to save the mother's life etc?
and your characterization was the usual pro-liar sleaze that has
no relation to the truth.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Partial Birth Abortion Diagrams
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html
--
B3
==
Governments should fear their people, not vice versa.
Reining in out of control government is just a strike away.
Reining in out of control media is just a boycott away.
http://www.opensecrets.org sees where your candidates get their $$
Israel has 200+ Nukes. Iran has 0. Yet, Iran is the problem?
The Bush White House Motto: SO SUE US!
Jesus was a liberal who would have marched on DC to overturn the tables
in lobbyists and "Christian Leaders" offices.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 10:39:32 PM |
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wrote:
On Apr 11, 11:26 pm, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
Are you familiar with what's involved in
partial-birth abortion?
Yes,
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
I can. Let me first run the term "partial-birth abortion" into a search
of the medical journals.
Strange. No results.
Can you help me out here? All I'm finding when I do a Google search are
drawn diagrams. Do you have photographs of this procedure? Video
documentation would be better.
Or, perhaps this is a term that the antichoice crowd concocted because
their arguments are weak at best and they need to mislead the public in
order to make their apparent argument stronger.
The site you provided uses loaded terms such as "abortionist". No
medical journal would use such a word. Same goes for "jam". I know of
no reputable physician that uses the word "jam" as a verb.
However, if you're referring to D&E and/or IDX (which you should say
because using "partial-birth aboriton" just makes you look stupid to the
pro-choice crowd), then let's talk about those two procedures.
Firstly, D&E and IDX are NOT done, as you say, "with one arm inside the
mother". I would LOVE to see your evidence on this.
Secondly D&E and IDX are usually done in the late-second- to early-third
trimesters. That is 5-6 months in, if you're counting.
I can find zero evidence of D&E or IDX used to terminate the pregnancy
of an otherwise healthy fetus at the time of birth. Please illuminate me.
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 08:49:32 AM |
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In our last episode,
<1176385470.539895.162420@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Sure. It is a propaganda term invented by right-wing fascist nutcases.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
Countdown: 649 days to go.
Chinese Terrorists:: Xuzhou Anying Biologic Technology Development Company Ltd.
Identified :: Wangdian Industrial Zone, Peixian, CN-32, China 221623
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 08:21:28 PM |
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On Apr 12, 9:49 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
In our last episode,
<1176385470.539895.162...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Sure. It is a propaganda term invented by right-wing fascist nutcases.
Do you think that people who believe in the existence of the God of
theism are "fascist nutcases"?
"Fascist!" he shrieked.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1167413690.874628.159730%4048g2000cwx.googlegroups.com
The Nazis Hitler and Ley were atheists. Do you consider Hitler and
Ley:
"fascist nutcases"?
leftist "fascist nutcases"?
the Nazi Robert Ley was an atheism-adherent who worshiped Hitler and
Nature
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1143171898.121370.76730%40e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com
Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social
Darwinist vision
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
some atheism-adherents' development and use of brutal terror tactics
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1128703737.434501.234400%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
"it ['partial-birth abortion'] is a propaganda term"
What terminology do you prefer to "partial-birth abortion"?
[Haskell]"Dilation and Extraction" i.e. [Haskell]"D&X"?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Key Documents On Medical Issues Relating To Partial-Birth Abortion
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/keymedical.html
That page links to this PDF:
1992 paper in which Ohio abortionist Dr. Martin Haskell explained step
by step how to perform the method, and why he prefers it.
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/Haskellinstructional.pdf
Partial Birth Abortion Diagrams
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/diagram.html
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| User: "Lars Eighner" |
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| Title: Re: is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"? |
12 Apr 2007 08:47:25 PM |
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In our last episode,
<1176427288.716182.232720@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
On Apr 12, 9:49 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
In our last episode,
<1176385470.539895.162...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Sure. It is a propaganda term invented by right-wing fascist nutcases.
Do you think that people who believe in the existence of the God of
theism are "fascist nutcases"?
Of course they are. The whole point of the god idea is to get the ignorant
to obey you because you claim to speak for god.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
Countdown: 648 days to go.
Reject the Works of Satin!
I am a radical Muslin. Please read my blog.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: are Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"? |
13 Apr 2007 06:58:05 AM |
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On Apr 12, 9:47 pm, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote in Re:
is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"?:
In our last episode,
<1176427288.716182.232...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
On Apr 12, 9:49 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
In our last episode, <1176385470.539895.162...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Sure. It is a propaganda term invented by right-wing fascist nutcases.
Do you think that people who believe in the existence of the God of
theism are "fascist nutcases"?
Of course they are. The whole point of the god idea is to get the ignorant
to obey you because you claim to speak for god.
Do you consider Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Chazan, Aaron. 1990. _Deep In the Russian Night_ (USA: C.I.S.
Publishers), 243pp. On Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Russian-Night-Aron-Hazan/dp/156062034X
On 83:
Everyone lived with the fear that he would soon end
up in prison [during atheism-adherent Stalin's 1937-8
Great Terror]. More than any other group, the
[not-secular] religious were in grave danger. [Aaron
Chazan was a Judaism-adherent who didn't shave
his beard and who didn't work on the Sabbath. -df]
Hundreds of people disappeared daily....
....a middle-aged man with a red star of distinction...
confronted me.
"Do you believe in G-d?"
"Yes," I answered.
"Fascist!" he shrieked.
factoids on atheism-adherent Stalin's 1937-8 Great Terror
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1166240537.094725.53530%40l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com
Marxist-Leninist atheism-adherents responsible for the killing of 94+
million
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1167099703.362978.48000%40i12g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
freethinker/ atheist neo-Nazis
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1133809875.498392.214750%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Multi-Pronged Role of Darwinian Thought in Shoah's Arrival
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1132080322.482544.299440%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social
Darwinist vision
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
sandblast away the Jew Moses and his 10 Commandments?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1167317534.845204.208870%40a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com
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| User: "Rich Corinthian Leather" |
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| Title: Re: are Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"? |
13 Apr 2007 07:19:35 PM |
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wrote:
On Apr 12, 9:47 pm, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote in Re:
is it OK to kill life that isn't "a person"?:
In our last episode,
<1176427288.716182.232...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
On Apr 12, 9:49 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote:
In our last episode, <1176385470.539895.162...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented
broadcast on alt.atheism:
Could you provide a description of what's involved in partial-birth
abortion?
Sure. It is a propaganda term invented by right-wing fascist nutcases.
Do you think that people who believe in the existence of the God of
theism are "fascist nutcases"?
Of course they are. The whole point of the god idea is to get the ignorant
to obey you because you claim to speak for god.
Do you consider Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"?
Adherents of *any* religion are fascistic nut cases because they believe
in an invisible, unprovable entity for which no evidence exists.
Carrying out acts on behalf of such a deity/deities certifies the
believers as nut cases!
RCL
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: are Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"? |
15 Apr 2007 07:58:26 AM |
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On Apr 13, 8:19 pm, Rich Corinthian Leather
<inexplica...@mysterious.net> wrote:
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
Do you consider Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"?
Adherents of *any* religion are fascistic nut cases
Including secular-humanism-adherents?
the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127528146.999596.314660%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Klinghoffer's "Worshipers At The Secular Altar"
http://www.mylifeafter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=33302&sid=37dac5255c9255476199764b590e8d0b
because they believe
in an invisible, unprovable entity for which no evidence exists.
Do you think that starting with simply matter, life can come from non-
life?
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
atheism-adherent Stalin's contributions to science
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406212039.69fbcce1%40posting.google.com
some 1915-1999 doses of reality
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-33arf3F3vjdggU1%40individual.net
On the Origin of Life
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1%40individual.net
Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1%40individual.net
Carrying out acts on behalf of such a deity/deities certifies the
believers as nut cases!
Do you think that everything is permissible if a God of theism doesn't
exist?
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
atheism-adherent Sartre: "everything is permissible if God does not
exist"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1148953550.334506.168420%40j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social
Darwinist vision
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1134145559.645139.229550%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: are Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"? |
15 Apr 2007 12:15:59 PM |
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<dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Rich Corinthian Leather
Do you consider Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"?
Adherents of *any* religion are fascistic nut cases
Including secular-humanism-adherents?
No, idiot, because "secular" means "not religious".
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: are Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"? |
15 Apr 2007 04:27:44 PM |
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wrote:
On Apr 13, 8:19 pm, Rich Corinthian Leather
<inexplica...@mysterious.net> wrote:
dfo...@gl.umbc.edu wrote:
Do you consider Judaism-adherents "fascist nutcases"?
Adherents of *any* religion are fascistic nut cases
Including secular-humanism-adherents?
If secular humanism were a religion...which it isn't.
because they believe
in an invisible, unprovable entity for which no evidence exists.
Do you think that starting with simply matter, life can come from non-
life?
Yes.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
atheism-adherent Stalin's contributions to science
Sorry, but Stalin's atheism had as much to do with Stalin's insanity as
his mustache did. (Read: Nothing.) He was a horrible dictator and
atheism had nothing do with it.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406212039.69fbcce1%40posting.google.com
some 1915-1999 doses of reality
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-33arf3F3vjdggU1%40individual.net
On the Origin of Life
Irrelevant to atheism. You can have origin of life happening with a
god-presence, but that god having nothing to do with the origin of life.
Look up deism.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1%40individual.net
Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1%40individual.net
Carrying out acts on behalf of such a deity/deities certifies the
believers as nut cases!
Do you think that everything is permissible if a God of theism doesn't
exist?
No.
Do YOU think that everything is permissible if a God of theism doesn't
exist? I'd be very interested in hearing the answer to that.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
atheism-adherent Sartre: "everything is permissible if God does not
exist"
Err, not quite. That's a line from the Brothers Karamazov, and the FULL
quote (in context) of what Sartre said was:
"[The existentialist] thinks it very distressing that God does not
exist, because all possibility of finding values in a heaven of ideas
disappears along with Him; there can no longer be an a priori Good,
since there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it.
Nowhere is it written that the Good exists, that we must be honest, that
we must not lie; because the fact is we are on a plane where there are
only men. Dostoievsky said, "If God didn’t exist, everything would be
possible." That is the very starting point of existentialism. Indeed,
everything is permissible if God does not exist, and as a result man is
forlorn, because neither within him nor without does he find anything to
cling to. He can’t start making excuses for himself."
So, Sartre was quoting what he thought was Dostoevsky, but it was kind
of misattributed. It was actually from the Brothers Karamazov (written
by Dostoevsky), and spoken by the FICTIONAL Ivan Karamazov who would
also say: "It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most
respectfully return him the ticket [to salvation]." So, Ivan (whom
you're attributing to Sartre who was quoting one of Dostoevsky's
characters) was a disillusioned theist, not an atheist.
BIG difference. And I'll thank you for not misrepresenting this in the
future.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1148953550.334506.168420%40j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Hitler's actions make sense given his atheism and eugenic, social
Darwinist vision
....and interest in the occult. Sorry, duder, but he wasn't an atheist
and frequently espoused his belief in Jesus Christ and God.
No dice.
--
******************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*----------------------------------------------------*
* "In every country and every age, the priest had *
* been hostile to Liberty." --Thomas Jefferson *
******************************************************
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