| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Iain" |
| Date: |
04 Oct 2004 08:12:52 AM |
| Object: |
Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 01:26:36 PM |
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"Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6feb9a89.0410040512.4fb6d605@posting.google.com...
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Why can't you be sure he isn't a bank robber. Are there unsolved ba
nk robberies in your neighborhood?
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
I
n America one is innocent until proven guilty, except during a malfunction
of injustice, i.e., "miscarriage of justice".
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
For all impractical purposes you are damned anyway.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
By binary do you mean boolean true or false condition? If that's what you
mean, then it behooves the believers to categorize you as saved or damned.
Why should you give a R.A.?
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
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| User: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?AnotherObserver=AE?=" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 05:56:07 PM |
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Iain wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
Though not popular among folk in this group... "Anything is possible"
expecially when "Multiverse" is taken into consideration.
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| User: "Graham Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 12:44:40 PM |
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Iain wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
So, you're really saying that it is impossible to be open-minded
on any subject? To simply not know, or not care? That seems a
rather sweeping statement to me.
Also, there are some more subtle distinctions. For instance I only
lay claim to being a weak atheist, not a strong one. In point of
fact I do have a positive belief that god doesn't exist, so in
a sense I really am a strong atheist. But I don't make this claim
"officially" as it were, because I can't back it up. It's a purely
emotive point of view not supported by fact (IMHO), like my belief
that Pamela Anderson is the most beautiful woman on Earth or that
cheese is the most delicious substance ever created, or that Liverpool
is the finest football club in history despite their almost total
lack of success compared to some.
I do posess the strong atheist belief, but since I regard it as
simple personal bias I don't allow it to shape my actions, so in
the most meaningful sense I am not a strong atheist but a weak
one.
--
Graham Kennedy
Creator and Author,
Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
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| User: "Mark Nutter" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 10:40:48 AM |
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In article <6feb9a89.0410040512.4fb6d605@posting.google.com>,
(Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
...
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
All human knowledge is fallible, even for people who think they "know"
something to be infallibly true. However we can say, with a reasonably
high degree of certainty, something like "I do not know of any reason to
believe that the God you are telling me about actually exists outside of
the stories, superstitions, and subjective feelings of men." That is
usually sufficient to address the gods most people feel compelled to
tell you about. ;-)
Any gods who may exist somewhere out in the Great Unknowable are
irrelevant anyway. The only gods we need to worry about are the ones
that can be known by humans. Since that's a finite and addressable
subset of all possible and conceivable gods, we can draw reasonable
conclusions about individual members of that subset, without needing to
claim either omniscience or infallibility.
Mark Nutter
manutter51@alethian.org
http://www.alethian.org/ -- Information about Alethea, the God who does
exist outside the stories, superstitions, and subjective feelings of
men, and about Alethian faith and practice.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
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| User: "Uncle Dollar Bill" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 08:51:46 PM |
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On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700 in alt.atheism, (Iain)
defied the status quo and scrawled upon the toilet stall:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
So you believe that there is no other life in the universe at all? Interesting.
--
L8r,
Uncle Dollar Bill
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 08:20:27 AM |
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On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
It's not completely binary, surely. There are many things of which I
don't know for sure they exist, but I don't assign a truth value to
them either.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 03:17:49 PM |
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W. Syme <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<1096896087.fGdGmK86f1JKGw/7LdZlFw@1usenet>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
It's not completely binary, surely. There are many things of which I
don't know for sure they exist, but I don't assign a truth value to
them either.
Is this true of your gut feelings though?
I may make a distinction between disbelief and lack of belief, but does my gut?
~Iain
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 07:40:56 PM |
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On 4 Oct 2004 13:17:49 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
W. Syme <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<1096896087.fGdGmK86f1JKGw/7LdZlFw@1usenet>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
It's not completely binary, surely. There are many things of which I
don't know for sure they exist, but I don't assign a truth value to
them either.
Is this true of your gut feelings though?
I may make a distinction between disbelief and lack of belief, but does my gut?
~Iain
My gut does. There might be someone alive called Billy Bob Smith who's
got a red beard. There might be, I don't know for sure. I neither
believe or disbelieve that he exists and i feel fine about it.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
05 Oct 2004 03:07:57 PM |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 02:40:56 +0200, W. Syme
<Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote:
On 4 Oct 2004 13:17:49 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
W. Syme <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<1096896087.fGdGmK86f1JKGw/7LdZlFw@1usenet>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
However, can the fundamental human sense of what exists and what
doesn't(perhaps this is what the imagination is) comply with this?
For example, I don't know my father isn't a bank robber. I take the
stance of not believing he is a bank robber but cannot honestly say
"he certainly isn't".
Although in my mind I am indifferent to the notion, my imagination of
the notion is the same as if it were PROVEN that he ISN'T.
If I add to my stance of "I lack belief in god and don't know either
way", the positive belief that god does not exist, then I don't think
my imagination is altered at all.
I suspect for as long as we are thinking about a subject, the human
imagination can only cover the extent of reality as a binary value.
~Iain
It's not completely binary, surely. There are many things of which I
don't know for sure they exist, but I don't assign a truth value to
them either.
Is this true of your gut feelings though?
I may make a distinction between disbelief and lack of belief, but does my gut?
~Iain
My gut does. There might be someone alive called Billy Bob Smith who's
got a red beard. There might be, I don't know for sure. I neither
believe or disbelieve that he exists and i feel fine about it.
ah.....but how does 'Billy Bob Smith' feel about it? (eyes twinkle)
**
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
04 Oct 2004 11:18:20 PM |
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On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
Limitations of language.
[]
**
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
07 Oct 2004 03:28:01 AM |
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wrote in message news:<q384m014espu3citcf9j488ue3nmdk3o85@4ax.com>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
Limitations of language.
The limit is of imagination. I can describe my intellectual position
okayly, but cannot translate it to a fundamental sense of what is real
and what isn't, which seems to me to be more boolean.
~Iain
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
07 Oct 2004 01:56:53 PM |
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On 7 Oct 2004 01:28:01 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
stoney@the.net wrote in message news:<q384m014espu3citcf9j488ue3nmdk3o85@4ax.com>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
Limitations of language.
The limit is of imagination. I can describe my intellectual position
okayly, but cannot translate it to a fundamental sense of what is real
and what isn't, which seems to me to be more boolean.
The limitations of language prevent it. Imagination can come up with
all sorts of things but the translation requires concepts and
language.
Consider trying to describe travelling across the country via aircraft
and to a native american of the 1300's. And then explaining how the
lift effect of an aircraft wing works.
**
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
08 Oct 2004 03:26:11 AM |
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wrote in message news:<pt3bm09lelgcd0rtd7go8lmlhseurjb826@4ax.com>...
On 7 Oct 2004 01:28:01 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
wrote in message news:<q384m014espu3citcf9j488ue3nmdk3o85@4ax.com>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
Limitations of language.
The limit is of imagination. I can describe my intellectual position
okayly, but cannot translate it to a fundamental sense of what is real
and what isn't, which seems to me to be more boolean.
The limitations of language prevent it. Imagination can come up with
all sorts of things but the translation requires concepts and
language.
Consider trying to describe travelling across the country via aircraft
and to a native american of the 1300's. And then explaining how the
lift effect of an aircraft wing works.
The imagination can do a lot, but its limitation is a "gut feeling"
that something *might* exist. The "gut" either puts god there
completely in your imagination or doesn't. I could be wrong, but
that's what I'm suggesting.
As an aside, ignoring the language barrier between me and the
American, I would recall how my parents described aerodynamics to me
when I was a child.
~Iain
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
08 Oct 2004 01:33:17 PM |
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On 8 Oct 2004 01:26:11 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
stoney@the.net wrote in message news:<pt3bm09lelgcd0rtd7go8lmlhseurjb826@4ax.com>...
On 7 Oct 2004 01:28:01 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
stoney@the.net wrote in message news:<q384m014espu3citcf9j488ue3nmdk3o85@4ax.com>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
Limitations of language.
The limit is of imagination. I can describe my intellectual position
okayly, but cannot translate it to a fundamental sense of what is real
and what isn't, which seems to me to be more boolean.
The limitations of language prevent it. Imagination can come up with
all sorts of things but the translation requires concepts and
language.
Consider trying to describe travelling across the country via aircraft
and to a native american of the 1300's. And then explaining how the
lift effect of an aircraft wing works.
The imagination can do a lot, but its limitation is a "gut feeling"
that something *might* exist. The "gut" either puts god there
completely in your imagination or doesn't. I could be wrong, but
that's what I'm suggesting.
That's fine.
As an aside, ignoring the language barrier between me and the
American, I would recall how my parents described aerodynamics to me
when I was a child.
Sure, the language had evolved sufficiently to deal with the concepts
and subject matter.
I'm reminded of Einsteins' paraphrased quote; "I've accomplished what
I have because I stand on the shoulders of giants."
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Vote for Bush. Why vote for the lesser of two evils?
No matter the candidates the superstition industry wins.
'Jesus' is a sock-puppet Christians utilize to add 'authority' to
whatever action they intend on taking. -Stoney
.
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Is it possible to really abelieve and not disbelieve? |
15 Oct 2004 09:19:00 AM |
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wrote in message news:<o7ndm0tovjiso79v13vgricds61lkn2a79@4ax.com>...
On 8 Oct 2004 01:26:11 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
wrote in message news:<pt3bm09lelgcd0rtd7go8lmlhseurjb826@4ax.com>...
On 7 Oct 2004 01:28:01 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
wrote in message news:<q384m014espu3citcf9j488ue3nmdk3o85@4ax.com>...
On 4 Oct 2004 06:12:52 -0700, (Iain) wrote:
I can adopt an intellectual position of not believing in a god, yet
not disbelieve in one.
Limitations of language.
The limit is of imagination. I can describe my intellectual position
okayly, but cannot translate it to a fundamental sense of what is real
and what isn't, which seems to me to be more boolean.
The limitations of language prevent it. Imagination can come up with
all sorts of things but the translation requires concepts and
language.
Consider trying to describe travelling across the country via aircraft
and to a native american of the 1300's. And then explaining how the
lift effect of an aircraft wing works.
The imagination can do a lot, but its limitation is a "gut feeling"
that something *might* exist. The "gut" either puts god there
completely in your imagination or doesn't. I could be wrong, but
that's what I'm suggesting.
That's fine.
As an aside, ignoring the language barrier between me and the
American, I would recall how my parents described aerodynamics to me
when I was a child.
Sure, the language had evolved sufficiently to deal with the concepts
and subject matter.
I'm reminded of Einsteins' paraphrased quote; "I've accomplished what
I have because I stand on the shoulders of giants."
Interesting. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is the slogan on
the side of £2 coins.
~Iain
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