Religions > Atheism > Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
19 Oct 2005 12:11:57 PM |
| Object: |
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
Liberal clerics and laity in liberal Protestant denominations and even
in Catholicism explicitly or implicitly argue that approval of the gay
lifestyle of sexually active same-sex relationships is the only humane
response to someone with a homosexual orientation. The underlying
reasoning is that to expect someone to abstain from sexual activity for
his entire life is to seriously harm that person. Married heterosexuals
who reject the morality of gay behavior are then accused of hypocrisy
for expecting from gays what heterosexuals don't expect of themselves.
Heterosexuals who are delighted to have the sexual outlet of
traditional marriage may wonder what response can be made to this
charge.
The wider question that must first be addressed is the witness of
Scripture and Tradition. There is no doubt whatsoever that the
Judeo-Christian tradition has always and everywhere condemned sexual
activity between persons of the same gender. That teaching is part of
the divine revelation made in Scripture. So, even if a person should
decide that same-gender sex is now moral, there is no basis for that
person to say that such a view is in any way Christian. Any honest
advocate for such a position must admit that it contradicts Christian
revelation. So, for Christians who seek to contradict divine revelation
on this issue, the judgment of intellectual honesty is clear: you have
abandoned Christianity and are in the process of creating a new
non-Christian sect using Christian terms and labels, much as the
Mormons use Christian terminology as an overlay over their polytheism.
That is why the new pro-gay Episcopal Church USA should now be viewed
as being in the same category of pseudo-Christian sects such as the
Mormons who embrace polytheism or the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the
divinity of Christ.
Having clarified that the embrace of the gay lifestyle is not a
Christian option in any meaningful sense, we can now consider the
question from the perspective of a non-Christian making the charge of
why we ask for life-long abstinence from homosexuals but not from
heterosexuals who have the option of marriage. We come back to the
point that in our culture sexual abstinence is viewed as gravely
harmful to a person, emotionally and psychologically. Some even argue
that total sexual abstinence is even harmful physically or at least
denies a person significant health benefits.
No post in a web log can hope to answer these issues fully. But there
are some points worthy of consideration. The view that life-long sexual
abstinence is harmful is particularly appealing in a culture of
personal isolation. In highly individualistic Western cultures, the
extended family, the village, the neighborhood, and the social penumbra
of the local church have dramatically withered.
Contrast the typical American suburban lifestyle with that of a
Catholic living in an ethnic neighborhood in prior generations. In
those neighborhoods, the church steeple or tower dominated, not just
physically but also socially. The parish community was the center not
just of religious practice but of social life. I submit that as our
families and church communities dwindle in social significance, we
experience a greater emphasis on sexual activity as a way to "connect"
with other people. You can see this phenomenon in the explosion of
pornography and heterosexual fornication. There is no longer a social
path of courtship for young people to find suitable marriage partners.
All that is left in the current anarchic situation for many young
heterosexuals is ad hoc fornication as a way of seeking intimacy or of
finding a marriage partner. So, the first point to consider is that we
have an exaggerated view of the importance of sexual gratification
because we lack the experience of social community that prior
generations had. Sexual gratification, whether through pornography or
with a live person, becomes the drug for isolated and lonely rugged
individualists.
The next factor worth considering is loss of faith. If Jesus is indeed
God and offers us eternal life as the answer to the inevitable
encounter with death, then clearly following Jesus is worth the
sacrifice of sexual gratification. But the truth is that for many who
claim to be Christian and certainly for those who have no religious
allegiance, there is no genuine belief in an afterlife. Given that
perspective, it is not surprising that hedonism becomes the explicit or
implicit religion of many. The mania for consumerism confirms this
hedonistic mindset. And yet Jesus offers more than an afterlife, he
offers abundant life now in this life. Yet, if we lack the faith to
experience that abundant life, that priceless treasure, then it
certainly makes no sense to sacrifice our strong urges, urges which are
increasingly the only way for isolated people to remedy their
loneliness.
So to a complex question--is it unfair to deny a sexual outlet to
homosexuals?--we can answer with at least two preliminary points.
First, Western culture puts a dysfunctional emphasis on individual
sexual gratification because Western culture is so impoverished in
terms of family and community. Second, Jesus offers abundant life now
and after death, a life so abundant that the sacrifice or cross of
life-long abstinence is reasonable and worthwhile. Now these two points
will seem incomprehensible to many in the West for whom sexual
gratification has become one of the few ways we can relate to others in
our social isolation and for whom the offer of abundant life made by
Jesus Christ is regarded as superstition. But if we accept and
experience the offer of abundant life from Christ and thereby grow
beyond isolated individualism, then it is neither unfair nor
unreasonable to ask for life-long abstinence from homosexuals or, for
that matter, from unmarried heterosexuals. The problem is that in
today's nihilistic culture of despair and loneliness sexual
gratification has become a compulsion and an addiction in a long list
of other compulsions and addictions. And the addict will always come up
with an excuse or equivocation. For heterosexual Christians, there is
then an obligation to welcome homosexuals in our churches and parishes:
we must offer the community that makes the challenge of chastity a
realistic option. In addition, we must witness to the life offered by
Jesus Christ as the best reason for taking up the cross.
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| User: "No One" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 10:06:33 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> writes:
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
No, it it isn't unfair any more than it is unfair to ask heterosexuals
to refrain from sexual activity. But is is singularly stupid to
expect an answer that is any different.
Second, Jesus offers abundant life now and after death, a life so
abundant that the sacrifice or cross of life-long abstinence is
reasonable and worthwhile.
Try selling that one to a 19 year old guy (gay or straight) and
see how far you get. As a Stanford student once said (as quoted
in a local free daily newspaper), "Freshman year is when you
get to try all those things you really don't want your mother to
know about."
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| User: "øéòéï áøúåïý/Riain Barton" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask "words of truth" to kill himself? |
19 Oct 2005 02:18:40 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
:
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
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| User: "Torch" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 02:25:27 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
Liberal clerics and laity in liberal Protestant denominations and even
in Catholicism explicitly or implicitly argue that approval of the gay
lifestyle of sexually active same-sex relationships is the only humane
response to someone with a homosexual orientation. The underlying
reasoning is that to expect someone to abstain from sexual activity for
his entire life is to seriously harm that person. Married heterosexuals
who reject the morality of gay behavior are then accused of hypocrisy
for expecting from gays what heterosexuals don't expect of themselves.
Heterosexuals who are delighted to have the sexual outlet of
traditional marriage may wonder what response can be made to this
charge.
The wider question that must first be addressed is the witness of
Scripture and Tradition. There is no doubt whatsoever that the
Judeo-Christian tradition has always and everywhere condemned sexual
activity between persons of the same gender. That teaching is part of
the divine revelation made in Scripture. So, even if a person should
decide that same-gender sex is now moral, there is no basis for that
person to say that such a view is in any way Christian.
snip lies
Words of filthy lies - your god is watching you and knows you are posting
fibs
A quote from Robin Scroggs professor of New Testament at the Union
Theological
Seminary:
1.. The NT church was not very concerned about homosexuality as a problem,
All three instances referring to homosexuality are from preformed
traditions, either Greek or Jewish. No single NT author considers the issue
important enough to write his own sentence about it! The argument "against
nature" is the most common form of attack on pederasty in the Greco-Roman
texts. Pederasty involved forced male rape even by heterosexuals and slave
boy prostitutes. It says nothing about today's loving homosexual
relationships.
Even in Romans 1, where Paul integrates the illustration of
homosexuality into his larger theological arguments, there is no advance
beyond idolatry and pagan vices of 1 Cor 6:9.
2.. Female homosexuality gets even less attention appearing only in Romans
1, and here with less emphasis than male homosexuality. This is doubtlessly
because little was said in the Greco-Roman world about lesbianism, and
because in OT law no penalties attached to such female practices. This again
suggest pederasty was the vice, not homosexuality in general. In Romans 1
Paul's language "about male homosexuality, must have had, could only have
had, pederasty in mind."
3.. The two vice lists attack very specific forms of pederasty, not
homosexuality in general.
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| User: "Robin" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 01:32:53 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
That's an irrelevant question. Let me ask you something relevant. How is
it constitutional to deny two same sexed people to enter into the same legal
contract that two opposite sex people can enter into. That legal contract
offers an opposite sex couple many legal protections, yet same sex couples
are denied those legal protections. Can you please read the 14th amendment
to the United States Constitution, and then tell me how denying same sex
couples the right to enter into a legal contract is constitutional?
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The government can not deny any citizen "equal protection" under the law.
Noone can deny that the legal contract that we call marriage, conveys many
legal protections upon the parties that enter into it. Even though most
couples don't use many of the legal protections, the list goes into the
thousands.
Couple A and couple B are completely identical in every personal
demographic, except one. They are both of legal age. Neither is related in
any way. They have both consented to enter into the legal contract. The
only difference is the gender make-up of the two couples.
How is it constitutional to deny couple B the right to enter into the same
legal contract that couple A can enter into, based solely upon their gender?
I would like for someone to answer this question based soley upon the
Constitution of the United States of America. Please refrain from bringing
up the bible or your personal religious beliefs, as they have no relevance
to the discussion of one's constitutional rights.
.
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| User: "Romaine Brooks" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 04:15:36 AM |
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On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:32:53 GMT, "Robin"
<robinandtami@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
That's an irrelevant question. Let me ask you something relevant. How is
it constitutional to deny two same sexed people to enter into the same legal
contract that two opposite sex people can enter into. That legal contract
offers an opposite sex couple many legal protections, yet same sex couples
are denied those legal protections. Can you please read the 14th amendment
to the United States Constitution, and then tell me how denying same sex
couples the right to enter into a legal contract is constitutional?
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The government can not deny any citizen "equal protection" under the law.
Noone can deny that the legal contract that we call marriage, conveys many
legal protections upon the parties that enter into it. Even though most
couples don't use many of the legal protections, the list goes into the
thousands.
Couple A and couple B are completely identical in every personal
demographic, except one. They are both of legal age. Neither is related in
any way. They have both consented to enter into the legal contract. The
only difference is the gender make-up of the two couples.
How is it constitutional to deny couple B the right to enter into the same
legal contract that couple A can enter into, based solely upon their gender?
I would like for someone to answer this question based soley upon the
Constitution of the United States of America. Please refrain from bringing
up the bible or your personal religious beliefs, as they have no relevance
to the discussion of one's constitutional rights.
You'll be waiting a long time...
Romaine Brooks
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| User: "Robin" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 07:45:45 AM |
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"Romaine Brooks" <vtcheme@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:b0oel1phipsiitrffh2lpf0v1f81fjtt9u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:32:53 GMT, "Robin"
<robinandtami@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
That's an irrelevant question. Let me ask you something relevant. How is
it constitutional to deny two same sexed people to enter into the same
legal
contract that two opposite sex people can enter into. That legal contract
offers an opposite sex couple many legal protections, yet same sex couples
are denied those legal protections. Can you please read the 14th
amendment
to the United States Constitution, and then tell me how denying same sex
couples the right to enter into a legal contract is constitutional?
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The government can not deny any citizen "equal protection" under the law.
Noone can deny that the legal contract that we call marriage, conveys many
legal protections upon the parties that enter into it. Even though most
couples don't use many of the legal protections, the list goes into the
thousands.
Couple A and couple B are completely identical in every personal
demographic, except one. They are both of legal age. Neither is related
in
any way. They have both consented to enter into the legal contract. The
only difference is the gender make-up of the two couples.
How is it constitutional to deny couple B the right to enter into the same
legal contract that couple A can enter into, based solely upon their
gender?
I would like for someone to answer this question based soley upon the
Constitution of the United States of America. Please refrain from
bringing
up the bible or your personal religious beliefs, as they have no relevance
to the discussion of one's constitutional rights.
You'll be waiting a long time...
Romaine Brooks
That is true. I have asked it many times, as it is the *only* question that
is relevant to the issue of gay marriage. Not one gay marriage opponent has
ever attempted to answer it for me.
.
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| User: "Mimi Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 10:26:51 AM |
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Robin wrote:
"Romaine Brooks" <vtcheme@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:b0oel1phipsiitrffh2lpf0v1f81fjtt9u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:32:53 GMT, "Robin"
<robinandtami@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
That's an irrelevant question. Let me ask you something relevant. How is
it constitutional to deny two same sexed people to enter into the same
legal
contract that two opposite sex people can enter into. That legal contract
offers an opposite sex couple many legal protections, yet same sex couples
are denied those legal protections. Can you please read the 14th
amendment
to the United States Constitution, and then tell me how denying same sex
couples the right to enter into a legal contract is constitutional?
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and
of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The government can not deny any citizen "equal protection" under the law.
Noone can deny that the legal contract that we call marriage, conveys many
legal protections upon the parties that enter into it. Even though most
couples don't use many of the legal protections, the list goes into the
thousands.
Couple A and couple B are completely identical in every personal
demographic, except one. They are both of legal age. Neither is related
in
any way. They have both consented to enter into the legal contract. The
only difference is the gender make-up of the two couples.
How is it constitutional to deny couple B the right to enter into the same
legal contract that couple A can enter into, based solely upon their
gender?
I would like for someone to answer this question based soley upon the
Constitution of the United States of America. Please refrain from
bringing
up the bible or your personal religious beliefs, as they have no relevance
to the discussion of one's constitutional rights.
You'll be waiting a long time...
Romaine Brooks
That is true. I have asked it many times, as it is the *only* question that
is relevant to the issue of gay marriage. Not one gay marriage opponent has
ever attempted to answer it for me.
I'm sure that at some point in time you have heard one or another RRRist
claim "liberals don't have facts, just their *feelings*". Funny (ironic)
that on this subject we are the ones with the facts and they are the
ones with only "feelings"
.
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| User: "Robin" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 05:42:47 PM |
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"Mimi Cohen" <imnot@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1HO5f.9692$gj1.8100@fed1read05...
Robin wrote:
"Romaine Brooks" <vtcheme@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:b0oel1phipsiitrffh2lpf0v1f81fjtt9u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:32:53 GMT, "Robin"
<robinandtami@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
That's an irrelevant question. Let me ask you something relevant. How
is
it constitutional to deny two same sexed people to enter into the same
legal
contract that two opposite sex people can enter into. That legal
contract
offers an opposite sex couple many legal protections, yet same sex
couples
are denied those legal protections. Can you please read the 14th
amendment
to the United States Constitution, and then tell me how denying same sex
couples the right to enter into a legal contract is constitutional?
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States
and
of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United
States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The government can not deny any citizen "equal protection" under the
law.
Noone can deny that the legal contract that we call marriage, conveys
many
legal protections upon the parties that enter into it. Even though most
couples don't use many of the legal protections, the list goes into the
thousands.
Couple A and couple B are completely identical in every personal
demographic, except one. They are both of legal age. Neither is
related in
any way. They have both consented to enter into the legal contract.
The
only difference is the gender make-up of the two couples.
How is it constitutional to deny couple B the right to enter into the
same
legal contract that couple A can enter into, based solely upon their
gender?
I would like for someone to answer this question based soley upon the
Constitution of the United States of America. Please refrain from
bringing
up the bible or your personal religious beliefs, as they have no
relevance
to the discussion of one's constitutional rights.
You'll be waiting a long time...
Romaine Brooks
That is true. I have asked it many times, as it is the *only* question
that is relevant to the issue of gay marriage. Not one gay marriage
opponent has ever attempted to answer it for me.
I'm sure that at some point in time you have heard one or another RRRist
claim "liberals don't have facts, just their *feelings*". Funny (ironic)
that on this subject we are the ones with the facts and they are the ones
with only "feelings"
It's true, and this case in New York demonstrates it very clearly.
http://biz.yahoo.com/law/051017/4d88d7b7085567bb4ee2e124c4aecbfd.html?.v=1
This is a clear cut case where an American citizen has been denied equal
protection. I wouldn't be surprised to see this one go to the SC.
.
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| User: "Mimi Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 06:46:26 PM |
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Robin wrote:
"Mimi Cohen" <imnot@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1HO5f.9692$gj1.8100@fed1read05...
Robin wrote:
"Romaine Brooks" <vtcheme@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:b0oel1phipsiitrffh2lpf0v1f81fjtt9u@4ax.com...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 18:32:53 GMT, "Robin"
<robinandtami@hotmail.nospam.com> wrote:
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
That's an irrelevant question. Let me ask you something relevant. How
is
it constitutional to deny two same sexed people to enter into the same
legal
contract that two opposite sex people can enter into. That legal
contract
offers an opposite sex couple many legal protections, yet same sex
couples
are denied those legal protections. Can you please read the 14th
amendment
to the United States Constitution, and then tell me how denying same sex
couples the right to enter into a legal contract is constitutional?
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and
subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States
and
of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law
which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United
States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
The government can not deny any citizen "equal protection" under the
law.
Noone can deny that the legal contract that we call marriage, conveys
many
legal protections upon the parties that enter into it. Even though most
couples don't use many of the legal protections, the list goes into the
thousands.
Couple A and couple B are completely identical in every personal
demographic, except one. They are both of legal age. Neither is
related in
any way. They have both consented to enter into the legal contract.
The
only difference is the gender make-up of the two couples.
How is it constitutional to deny couple B the right to enter into the
same
legal contract that couple A can enter into, based solely upon their
gender?
I would like for someone to answer this question based soley upon the
Constitution of the United States of America. Please refrain from
bringing
up the bible or your personal religious beliefs, as they have no
relevance
to the discussion of one's constitutional rights.
You'll be waiting a long time...
Romaine Brooks
That is true. I have asked it many times, as it is the *only* question
that is relevant to the issue of gay marriage. Not one gay marriage
opponent has ever attempted to answer it for me.
I'm sure that at some point in time you have heard one or another RRRist
claim "liberals don't have facts, just their *feelings*". Funny (ironic)
that on this subject we are the ones with the facts and they are the ones
with only "feelings"
It's true, and this case in New York demonstrates it very clearly.
http://biz.yahoo.com/law/051017/4d88d7b7085567bb4ee2e124c4aecbfd.html?.v=1
You are correct that is *EXACTLY* what I'm talking about.
This is a clear cut case where an American citizen has been denied equal
protection. I wouldn't be surprised to see this one go to the SC.
As long as it gets there before Harriet does :(
.
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| User: "Dennis Kemmerer" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 05:17:19 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
Liberal clerics and laity in liberal Protestant denominations and even
in Catholicism explicitly or implicitly argue that approval of the gay
lifestyle
Rhetoric alert.
[snip remainder of steaming homophobic pile]
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| User: "Spartakus" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 01:26:49 PM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote...
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
It's rather foolhardy to ask any healthy adult to refrain from sexual
activity. For one thing, you'll get laughed at.
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| User: "Dennis Kemmerer" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 05:17:19 PM |
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"Spartakus" <no.spam@this.address> wrote in message
news:dj635a$i7p$0@pita.alt.net...
"words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote...
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
It's rather foolhardy to ask any healthy adult to refrain from sexual
activity. For one thing, you'll get laughed at.
He's just jealous 'cause he can't get any. :)
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| User: "RGrannus" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 08:42:04 PM |
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Ask, no. Require, yes.
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| User: "The Secretary of HomInt3rn" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 06:14:08 AM |
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I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to RGrannus:
Ask, no. Require, yes.
OK, I change my answer.;-{)}
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! "The personal _is_ political."
Bent Depraved N. Deviant *****-Smoker, Esq., Superfaggot
"Stupidity excuses nothing. It's only a reason...." -- Phxbrd
Economic Left/Right: -7.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
"The whining has just begun." -- John Wentzky
Killfiled by: directory; Anim8rfsk
"It's not nice to misrepresent Mother Nature."
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| User: "The Secretary of HomInt3rn" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 06:07:54 AM |
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I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to words of truth:
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
Yes. Especially the ones who aren't into one of the Xian cults.
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! "The personal _is_ political."
Bent Depraved N. Deviant *****-Smoker, Esq., Superfaggot
"Stupidity excuses nothing. It's only a reason...." -- Phxbrd
Economic Left/Right: -7.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
"The whining has just begun." -- John Wentzky
Killfiled by: directory; Anim8rfsk
"It's not nice to misrepresent Mother Nature."
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 02:46:39 PM |
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In <1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
Is it unfair to ask a pack of hypocrites who cover up pedophilia to go
***** themselves?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long
after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have
been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing.
Many who could have been were not. That's to the
government's shame."
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F2D511CBB
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| User: "Mimi Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 03:43:34 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In <1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
no less unfair than asking words of lies to refrain from sexual activity
because of the minuscule (but dangerous to mankind) that he might reproduce.
Is it unfair to ask a pack of hypocrites who cover up pedophilia to go
***** themselves?
No, *THAT* is fair to the extreme.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 10:29:45 PM |
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On 19-Oct-2005, Mimi Cohen <imnot@cox.net> wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In <1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
no less unfair than asking words of lies to refrain from sexual activity
because of the minuscule (but dangerous to mankind) that he might
reproduce.
Is it unfair to ask a pack of hypocrites who cover up pedophilia to go
***** themselves?
No, *THAT* is fair to the extreme.
No, it's MILD ot the extreme!
Susan
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| User: "Mimi Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 11:08:06 PM |
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wrote:
On 19-Oct-2005, Mimi Cohen <imnot@cox.net> wrote:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In <1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
no less unfair than asking words of lies to refrain from sexual activity
because of the minuscule (but dangerous to mankind) that he might
reproduce.
Is it unfair to ask a pack of hypocrites who cover up pedophilia to go
***** themselves?
No, *THAT* is fair to the extreme.
No, it's MILD ot the extreme!
Susan
:)
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| User: "BYTE ME!" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 02:49:06 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In <1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "words of
truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
=20
=20
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
=20
=20
Is it unfair to ask a pack of hypocrites who cover up pedophilia to go
***** themselves?
=20
Sounds fair to me.
--=20
Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none=20
more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant=20
to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called=20
Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too =
inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only =
atheists and fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of=20
despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests; but so far=20
as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or=20
hereafter. =96Thomas Paine
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 03:10:55 PM |
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On 19 Oct 2005 10:11:57 -0700, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
Is It Unfair to Ask Heterosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
How does the shoe feel on the other foot?
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
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| User: "Boy Toy" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 05:34:23 PM |
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On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:10:55 -0400, raven1
<quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote in message
<i1adl1pvs18r5eg4ea088h9hqemfh8ho84@4ax.com>
On 19 Oct 2005 10:11:57 -0700, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth21@lycos.com> wrote:
Is It Unfair to Ask Heterosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
How does the shoe feel on the other foot?
---
"This is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause"
- Padme Amidala, Episode III
I would ask the OP to refrain from sexual activity except ... his wife
beat me to it.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 04:30:55 AM |
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On 19 Oct 2005 10:11:57 -0700, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com>
wrote:
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
God doesn't ask. You live and die with your choice.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from SexualActivity? |
20 Oct 2005 06:58:13 PM |
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in article 6toel15j4egau6sibi8r446j11o3i54bm4@4ax.com, duke at
duckgumbo32@cox.net wrote on 10/20/05 5:30 AM:
On 19 Oct 2005 10:11:57 -0700, "words of truth" <wordsoftruth21@lycos.com>
wrote:
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-
to.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
God doesn't ask.
It's how little interest He has in you
Duke
--
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from SexualActivity? |
19 Oct 2005 08:38:01 PM |
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in article 1129741917.026489.94490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, words of
truth at wrote on 10/19/05 1:11 PM:
http://catholicanalysis.blogspot.com/2004/01/is-it-unfair-to-ask-homosexuals-t
o.html
Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity?
Liberal clerics and laity in liberal Protestant denominations and even
in Catholicism explicitly or implicitly argue that approval of the gay
lifestyle of sexually active same-sex relationships is the only humane
response to someone with a homosexual orientation. The underlying
reasoning is that to expect someone to abstain from sexual activity for
his entire life is to seriously harm that person. Married heterosexuals
who reject the morality of gay behavior are then accused of hypocrisy
for expecting from gays what heterosexuals don't expect of themselves.
Heterosexuals who are delighted to have the sexual outlet of
traditional marriage may wonder what response can be made to this
charge.
The wider question that must first be addressed is the witness of
Scripture and Tradition. There is no doubt whatsoever that the
Judeo-Christian tradition has always and everywhere condemned sexual
activity between persons of the same gender. That teaching is part of
the divine revelation made in Scripture. So, even if a person should
decide that same-gender sex is now moral, there is no basis for that
person to say that such a view is in any way Christian. Any honest
advocate for such a position must admit that it contradicts Christian
revelation. So, for Christians who seek to contradict divine revelation
on this issue, the judgment of intellectual honesty is clear: you have
abandoned Christianity and are in the process of creating a new
non-Christian sect using Christian terms and labels, much as the
Mormons use Christian terminology as an overlay over their polytheism.
That is why the new pro-gay Episcopal Church USA should now be viewed
as being in the same category of pseudo-Christian sects such as the
Mormons who embrace polytheism or the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the
divinity of Christ.
Having clarified that the embrace of the gay lifestyle is not a
Christian option in any meaningful sense, we can now consider the
question from the perspective of a non-Christian making the charge of
why we ask for life-long abstinence from homosexuals but not from
heterosexuals who have the option of marriage. We come back to the
point that in our culture sexual abstinence is viewed as gravely
harmful to a person, emotionally and psychologically. Some even argue
that total sexual abstinence is even harmful physically or at least
denies a person significant health benefits.
No post in a web log can hope to answer these issues fully. But there
are some points worthy of consideration. The view that life-long sexual
abstinence is harmful is particularly appealing in a culture of
personal isolation. In highly individualistic Western cultures, the
extended family, the village, the neighborhood, and the social penumbra
of the local church have dramatically withered.
Contrast the typical American suburban lifestyle with that of a
Catholic living in an ethnic neighborhood in prior generations. In
those neighborhoods, the church steeple or tower dominated, not just
physically but also socially. The parish community was the center not
just of religious practice but of social life. I submit that as our
families and church communities dwindle in social significance, we
experience a greater emphasis on sexual activity as a way to "connect"
with other people. You can see this phenomenon in the explosion of
pornography and heterosexual fornication. There is no longer a social
path of courtship for young people to find suitable marriage partners.
All that is left in the current anarchic situation for many young
heterosexuals is ad hoc fornication as a way of seeking intimacy or of
finding a marriage partner. So, the first point to consider is that we
have an exaggerated view of the importance of sexual gratification
because we lack the experience of social community that prior
generations had. Sexual gratification, whether through pornography or
with a live person, becomes the drug for isolated and lonely rugged
individualists.
The next factor worth considering is loss of faith. If Jesus is indeed
God and offers us eternal life as the answer to the inevitable
encounter with death, then clearly following Jesus is worth the
sacrifice of sexual gratification. But the truth is that for many who
claim to be Christian and certainly for those who have no religious
allegiance, there is no genuine belief in an afterlife. Given that
perspective, it is not surprising that hedonism becomes the explicit or
implicit religion of many. The mania for consumerism confirms this
hedonistic mindset. And yet Jesus offers more than an afterlife, he
offers abundant life now in this life. Yet, if we lack the faith to
experience that abundant life, that priceless treasure, then it
certainly makes no sense to sacrifice our strong urges, urges which are
increasingly the only way for isolated people to remedy their
loneliness.
So to a complex question--is it unfair to deny a sexual outlet to
homosexuals?--we can answer with at least two preliminary points.
First, Western culture puts a dysfunctional emphasis on individual
sexual gratification because Western culture is so impoverished in
terms of family and community. Second, Jesus offers abundant life now
and after death, a life so abundant that the sacrifice or cross of
life-long abstinence is reasonable and worthwhile. Now these two points
will seem incomprehensible to many in the West for whom sexual
gratification has become one of the few ways we can relate to others in
our social isolation and for whom the offer of abundant life made by
Jesus Christ is regarded as superstition. But if we accept and
experience the offer of abundant life from Christ and thereby grow
beyond isolated individualism, then it is neither unfair nor
unreasonable to ask for life-long abstinence from homosexuals or, for
that matter, from unmarried heterosexuals. The problem is that in
today's nihilistic culture of despair and loneliness sexual
gratification has become a compulsion and an addiction in a long list
of other compulsions and addictions. And the addict will always come up
with an excuse or equivocation. For heterosexual Christians, there is
then an obligation to welcome homosexuals in our churches and parishes:
we must offer the community that makes the challenge of chastity a
realistic option.
In the next world, there's nothing BUT chastity...so I prefer to
shoot the ducks while they're flying in the here and now.
Paul
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| User: "• Ninure Saunders" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 07:39:00 AM |
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"We reject them, treat them as pariahs, and push them outside the
confines of our church communities, and thereby we negate the
consequences of their baptism and ours. We make them doubt that they are
the children of God, and this must be nearly the ultimate blasphemy. We
blame them for something that it is becoming increasingly clear they can
do little about. Someone has said that if this particular sexual
orientation were indeed a matter of personal choice, then gay and lesbian
persons must be the craziest coots around to choose a way of life that
exposes them to so much hostility, discrimination, loss, and suffering.
To say this is akin to saying that a black person voluntarily chooses a
complexion and race that exposes him - or herself - to all the hatred,
suffering, and disadvantages to be found in a racist society. Such a
person would be stark raving mad...It is only of homosexual persons that
we require universal celibacy, whereas for others we teach that celibacy
is a special vocation. We say that sexual orientation is morally a matter
of indifference, but what is culpable are homosexual acts. But then we
claim that sexuality is a divine gift, which used properly, helps us to
become more fully human and akin really to God, as it is this part of our
humanity that makes us more gentle and caring, more self-giving and
concerned for others than we would be without that gift. Why should we
want all homosexual persons not to give expression to their sexuality in
loving acts? Why don't we use the same criteria to judge same-sex
relationships that we use to judge whether heterosexual relationships are
wholesome or not? I was left deeply disturbed by these inconsistencies
and knew that the Lord of the Church would not be where his church is in
this matter. Can we act quickly to let the gospel imperatives prevail as
we remember our baptism and theirs, and be thankful?
" -- Archbishop Desmond Tutu
--
Pax Christi,
• Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
Jesus is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay
http://Ninure-Saunders.tk
My Yahoo Group
http://Ninure.tk
Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches
http://www.MCCchurch.org
The Bible Site - help provide free scripture
http://www.thebiblesite.org
To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
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| User: "Dionisio" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 11:10:20 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
The underlying
reasoning is that to expect someone to abstain from sexual activity for
his entire life is to seriously harm that person.
Much is explained about God in that trifling little sentence.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the
Judeo-Christian tradition has always and everywhere condemned sexual
activity between persons of the same gender.
Really?
Any honest
advocate for such a position must admit that it contradicts Christian
revelation. So, for Christians who seek to contradict divine revelation
on this issue, the judgment of intellectual honesty is clear: you have
abandoned Christianity and are in the process of creating a new
non-Christian sect using Christian terms and labels, much as the
Mormons use Christian terminology as an overlay over their polytheism.
Huh. And here I thought they were in support of polyamorism...
Having clarified that the embrace of the gay lifestyle is not a
Christian option in any meaningful sense...
....we can now stop embracing homosexuals, and instead start embracing
their asses. Right?
No post in a web log can hope to answer these issues fully. But there
are some points worthy of consideration. The view that life-long sexual
abstinence is harmful is particularly appealing in a culture of
personal isolation. In highly individualistic Western cultures, the
extended family, the village, the neighborhood, and the social penumbra
of the local church have dramatically withered.
All hail Socialism!
("And the masses say 'amen.'")
The next factor worth considering is loss of faith. If Jesus is indeed
God
"If"???
Well, there goes your "get out of Hell free" card.
Second, Jesus offers abundant life now
and after death, a life so abundant that the sacrifice or cross of
life-long abstinence is reasonable and worthwhile.
Although "harmful." <chuckle>
Smells like a sock puppet to me....
--
People need insults. Most people behave so abominably that they cry out for abuse. Charity moves us to meet this need. Abuse is a form of attention, and a little accommodating attention makes anyone feel human again. Now f*** off, oh clueless blatherskite!
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| User: "The Secretary of HomInt3rn" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
20 Oct 2005 08:58:56 AM |
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I was busily flonking away in alt.politics.homosexuality, when The Goddess
Eris Herself suddenly made me reply to Dionisio:
Any honest
advocate for such a position must admit that it contradicts Christian
revelation. So, for Christians who seek to contradict divine revelation
on this issue, the judgment of intellectual honesty is clear: you have
abandoned Christianity and are in the process of creating a new
non-Christian sect using Christian terms and labels, much as the
Mormons use Christian terminology as an overlay over their polytheism.
Huh. And here I thought they were in support of polyamorism...
Not even that -- just polygamy...;-{P}
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Hail Eris! "The personal _is_ political."
Bent Depraved N. Deviant *****-Smoker, Esq., Superfaggot
"Stupidity excuses nothing. It's only a reason...." -- Phxbrd
Economic Left/Right: -7.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
"The whining has just begun." -- John Wentzky
Killfiled by: directory; Anim8rfsk
"It's not nice to misrepresent Mother Nature."
.
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| User: "BYTE ME!" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 12:47:05 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
Christian cult ***** snipped.
You have absolutely no concept of truth.
--=20
Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none=20
more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant=20
to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called=20
Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too =
inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only =
atheists and fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of=20
despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests; but so far=20
as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or=20
hereafter. =96Thomas Paine
.
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| User: "Hugh Betcha" |
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| Title: Re: Is It Unfair to Ask Homosexuals to Refrain from Sexual Activity? |
19 Oct 2005 01:36:22 PM |
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BYTE ME! wrote:
words of truth wrote:
Christian cult ***** snipped.
You have absolutely no concept of truth.
An odd thing to say, considering the relative nature of 'truth'.
Dontcha think?
H.
--
"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on."
-Sir Winston Churchill
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