someone4 wrote:

If awareness was a product of the brain though, and effects have
causes, the universe would be deterministic and your future would be
fixed (or maybe randomnly driven if you believe in quantum randomness
and effects with no cause).

AngryJohn wrote:

You are really stretching.

someone4 wrote:

There is no stretching there at all, that is a logical truth.

AngryJohn wrote:

Nope

Sorry, but it is.

AngryJohn wrote:

You believe in the soul and yet call me illogical. How ironic.

Your world view is illogical though, you don't believe that your
awareness is above physical laws, and yet you fail to see that without
that your future would either be fixed or randomly driven. You hold a
logically inconsistent world view. Mine might not make sense to you,
but at least it is logically consistent.

someone4 wrote:

You find the idea that your future is fixed
ridiculous, yet without the concept of your awareness being above
physical laws, that is exactly what it would be (or maybe randomly
driven as I mentioned above).

AngryJohn wrote:

Because it is ridiculous. We do not yet have all the information
concerning awareness. You cannot randomly toss out something just
because you don't understand what is happening, have all the
information/facts to evaluate a proposition, or want to pursue
something that may prove your pet theory wrong. ooops, yes you can
because you are a theist.

someone4 wrote:

It is nothing to do with me being a theist. We have enough knowledge to
know that at the quantum level matter is either deterministically
driven at the quantum level, or there is quantum randomness. You just
take the illogical position of covering up your ears, and eyes, and not
understanding what is being said, or rather you do understand it, but
call it ridiculous, yet still refuse to believe your awareness is above
the physical laws. If it isn't, your future would logically be either
fixed or randomly driven, there is no alternative.

Angry John wrote:

Is it deterministically driven or random? Again. like always, you
obfuscate by placing both propositions within the same sentence. Is
it P or not P?

Again, you discount human intelligence.

Human intelligence though would be a product of the brain. The brain
would be subject to the laws of nature wouldn't it? If it is subject to
the laws of nature, then it is either deterministically driven, or
driven by quantum randomness. Can you not understand that? Is it really
such a difficult concept for you to grasp? Once you do grasp it, and
maybe you never will, you will realise that you have said that you
think the logical ramifications of an atheist belief are ridiculous.

someone4 wrote:

I think you now understand determinism,
and hopefully can see why this would be the case. You can't believe
that effects have a cause, that your awareness is the product of the
brain, and that your future isn't fixed, or rather you can't believe it
if you are going to be logical about it.

Angry John wrote:

I have always understood determinism.

someone4 wrote:

No you haven't, you have even admitted under this post that you didn't
think that determinism meant that every little think you do, every
thing you think would have been predetermined given the state of the
universe at an given time in the past (time t), and the laws of nature.

Angry John wrote:

Now you are stretching again. I understand what you think determinism
means. I also know there are other, yep believe it or not,
definitions/descriptions of what you call determinism.

LOL! Determinism is a well defined concept, it means the same to
everyone, except you it seems. What other definitions of determinism
are there, apart from Angry John's? You don't seem to grasp that if all
effects have causes (within the physical plane) your future is fixed. I
have provided some quotes from links below, including the dictionary
definition of determinism, just to show that it is not simply me that
thinks it is what determinism means.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=determinism
"de·ter·min·ism P Pronunciation Key (d-tūrm-nzm)
n.
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every
human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of
antecedent states of affairs"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
"Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event,
including human cognition and action, is causally determined by an
unbroken chain of prior occurrences. No mysterious miracles or totally
random events occur. If there has been even one indeterministic event
since the beginning of time, then determinism is false."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/#1.3
"A standard characterization of determinism states that every event is
causally necessitated by antecedent events.[4] Within this essay, we
shall define determinism as the metaphysical thesis that the facts of
the past, in conjunction with the laws of nature, entail every truth
about the future. According to this characterization, if determinism is
true, then, given the actual past, and holding fixed the laws of
nature, only one future is possible at any moment in time. Notice that
an implication of determinism as it applies to a person's conduct is
that, if determinism is true, there are (causal) conditions for that
person's actions located in the remote past, prior to her birth, that
are sufficient for each of her actions."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/
"Determinism: The world is governed by (or is under the sway of)
determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time
t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law."

Feel free to provide some links to your other definitions :)

Angry John wrote:

You cannot believe in god or the soul and be logical about it. By
holding those beliefs you have no foundation for what you call logic
to stand upon. You do not even have a deck with which to build your
house of cards.

someone4 wrote:

Yes I can, as I have the subjective evidence that I am aware, and that
it seems to me (and to you) that both A and B were possible before I
consciously choose between them. Your position is the one devoid of
logic. The logical atheist position is that your future is either
fixed, or randomly driven, you have just not realised that, and
consider it ridiculous. What you are calling ridiculous, is the logical
(allowing for other illogical atheist positions) atheist position. You
just haven't thought it through, or maybe you simply fail to understand
it.

Angry John wrote:

There you go again. If you ever want to be taken seriously QUIT
making assertions and then attempting to indicate someone else agrees
with your assertion when they have not in any way agreed with you and
in fact have vehemently disagreed with you basic premise. You choose
to manipulate your awareness into a wordy subjective description of
evidence. Keep it as your own.

No, you define for yourself, to yourself, what you call the only
logical atheist position. That is not the case at all, in my view.

In your view maybe not, but your view is half baked, it is illogical,
it doesn't make sense. If effects have causes within the physical plane
then your future is fixed, but you don't seem to be able to grasp that
very simple concept. Have no doubt, it is simply a failure of you being
to get your head around it. If effects don't have a cause, then what
made them happen, was it magic? Even if you believe in quantum
randomness, your future is simply randomly driven, but again, you can't
get your head around the concept.

someone4 wrote:

Though I think you have misunderstood the above post, the 'super being'
referred to above, wasn't supposed to be God. It was just agreeing with
AngryJohn, that conceptually determinism does mean predictable (though
not by humans).

AngryJohn wrote:

The earth is flat.

AngryJohn wrote:

The theists says:

The earth is flat.
The earth is flat.
The earth is flat.
The earth is flat.
The earth is flat.
Repeat ad nauseum until belief has taken hold.........

No, really the earth isn't flat, the theist is told, with supporting
evidence and proofs presented they must believe.

God waited until we were ready for this information so now that he
says it is ok I will now believe the earth is round. The theist,
self-professed believer in things unprovable, will alter their beliefs
and rationalize the changes as godly direction.

A theist world is a scary place.

someone4 wrote:

In a sense it is, as it implies that you will be held responsible for
your actions. I can see why many would cling to the atheist comfort
blanket, even it it logically sounds ridiculous (as you have claimed (a
fixed destiny or a randomly driven one)), they will blank it out, and
carry on regardless, because they believe what they want to believe,
and it helps dampen the concept of guilt.

Angry John wrote:

Listen you fucking retard. QUIT attributing to me things I have not
asserted. I said determinism as you define it is ridiculous. I find
that to be the ridiculous concept. I never claimed a fixed or random
destiny. IIRC, I stated that determinism, destiny, and fate are all
crap. They do not exist. If I did not state that clearly before I
certainly just did.

Oh I see, so you believe that there are magical effects that just
happen with no cause do you? If all effects have a cause from within
the physical plane, then the universe is deterministic you idiot. I
really am amazed how long it is taking for you to grasp this concept.
But maybe it is that you believe in magical effects that have no cause.

Angry John wrote:

What fucking concept of guilt? Your concept? Something you have
created within your mind so you can soothe your guilt at making a
choice that is fundamentally without proof, logic, or reason?

LOL! From a guy who holds a totally illogical world view. I just am
waiting for you to finally grasp the logical implications of atheism,
you think they are ridiculous, and yet no doubt you will remain an
atheist, and then simply believe your own world view is ridiculous.
LOL!

someone4 wrote:

Many of the atheists on this forum accept the view that their destiny
is fixed or randomly driven, they just don't consider it to be a big
issue, they believe they are destined to live life as though they have
a choice if you will, they consider it a logical conclusion, and accept
it as the raw scientific truth. You don't seem to understand the
*logical* implications of atheism. That you can't understand it is no
problem for me, but maybe an educated atheist could jump in, and
explain it to you in a way which is more acceptable to you (and perhaps
cus me at the same time :).

Angry John wrote:

I really do not give a ***** what "Many people of any kind" accept,
believe, take for truth, or just believe. You really cannot
comprehend that the earth is flat. With your first sentence you
commit a fallacy that reveals how little you understand logic.

You don't even hold a logically consistent world view you idiot. What
do you know about logic?

Angry John wrote:

Atheism, for me, is nothing more than simply not believing in god or
gods. Nothing more.

You on the other hand type here about logic yet have made a choice to
believe something based on your belief that it is better to have a
choice than not have a choice and once deciding to create this choice
you choose to believe in god.

A typical theist you cannot comprehend that life exists, you are here
living it, there is no grand plan, so the only influence you can truly
have is to use your intelligence the best that you can to contribute
to this world, or even just live and suck from the world. Then you
die. While you are here you can make choices, you can influence what
happens, you can make a difference, here on this planet, in your city,
on your block, and in your home. However, within the structure of the
universe what any single person on this planet does is totally fucking
meaningless. So your fear of not being important has driven you to
create this shell game of an argument wherein you attempt to create a
paradigm that allows you to limit the choice available. You attempt
to present it as either A or B when you cannot in any way show that
these are the limiting choices.

To you either you believe in the soul/god and therefore you have a
higher calling in life. (Your fear driven belief because you cannot
accept that you are nothing more than a mere speck of no consequence
within the universe.) Or one does not believe and the world is
totally limited to the physical realm and therefore deterministic and
life is as it is and no one can change that.

You have made a choice, created the choice you made, out of fear of
being inconsequential. All you hand waving is driven to one point
which is to rationalize this illogical choice you have made, totally
out of fear, and you real human intellectual awareness fights against
this choice so your hands wave, you toss out names, you grope for
support, and there lies your guilt as this choice you have created is
utterly without logic.

Lastly, you cannot comprehend that someone may actually disagree with
you. That is the basest foundation of illogical thinking which is a
result of theistic thinking. You believe you are right and nothing
will sway that as it is faith based/ Faith based thinking is not
logical. Logic is the antithesis to theistic thought.

Your whole world view is not even logically consistent you idiot. Once
you understand (which is probably never I can't believe it has taken
this long), you will see that you must accept your life is fixed, or
randomly driven, if you are to hold a logical atheist perspective.