| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"buckeye" |
| Date: |
18 Jan 2008 08:26:46 AM |
| Object: |
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Commentary: Faith talk on the campaign trail.
By Ira Chernus
January 14, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2008/01/is-religion-a-threat-to-democracy.html
[Introduction by Tom Engelhardt
[excerpt]
Change may, or may not, turn out to be the Pied Piper of 2008 for the
American voter, but it surely will remain the Scylla and Charybdis of
twenty-first century presidential politics. So watch out… be consistent… go
(like the Republican candidates) for the "eternal" verities… and, while
you're at it, consider the nature of religious consistency in politics,
because this election is, so far, not just the non-flip-flop election, but
the "faith" election in which even Hillary Clinton has a "Faith, Family and
Values" team on her campaign staff, while John McCain claimed on the
campaign trail that he thought the Constitution had established a
"Christian nation"… but let Tomdispatch regular and professor of religion
Ira Chernus tell you the rest. Tom Engelhardt
[end excerpt]
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Faith talk on the campaign trail.
By Ira Chernus
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2008/01/is-religion-a-threat-to-democracy.html
[excerpt]
It's a presidential campaign like no other. The candidates have been
falling all over each other in their rush to declare the depth and
sincerity of their religious faith. The pundits have been just as eager to
raise questions that seem obvious and important: Should we let religious
beliefs influence the making of law and public policy? If so, in what way
and to what extent? Those questions, however, assume that candidates bring
the subject of faith into the political arena largely to justify—or turn up
the heat under—their policy positions. In fact, faith talk often has little
to do with candidates' stands on the issues. There's something else going
on here.
Look at the TV ad that brought Mike Huckabee out of obscurity in Iowa, the
one that identified him as a "Christian Leader" who proclaims: "Faith
doesn't just influence me. It really defines me." That ad did indeed
mention a couple of actual political issues—the usual suspects, abortion
and gay marriage—but only in passing. Then Huckabee followed up with a red
sweater-themed Christmas ad that actively encouraged voters to ignore the
issues. We're all tired of politics, the kindly pastor indicated. Let's
just drop all the policy stuff and talk about Christmas—and Christ.
Ads like his aren't meant to argue policy. They aim to create an image—in
this case, of a good Christian with a steady moral compass who sticks to
his principles. At a deeper level, faith-talk ads work hard to turn the
candidate—whatever candidate—into a bulwark of solidity, a symbol of
certainty; their goal is to offer assurance that the basic rules for living
remain fixed, objective truths, as true as religion.
In a time when the world seems like a shaky place—whether you have a child
in Iraq, a mortgage you may not be able to meet, a pension threatening to
head south, a job evaporating under you, a loved one battling drug or
alcohol addiction, an ex who just came out as gay or born-again, or a
president you just can't trust—you may begin to wonder whether there is any
moral order in the universe. Are the very foundations of society so shaky
that they might not hold up for long? Words about faith—nearly any
words—speak reassuringly to such fears, which haunt millions of Americans.
These fears and the religious responses to them have been a key to the
political success of the religious right in recent decades. Randall Balmer,
a leading scholar of evangelical Christianity, points out that it's offered
not so much "issues" to mobilize around as "an unambiguous morality in an
age of moral and ethical uncertainty."
[end excerpt]
PAGE 2
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2008/01/is-religion-a-threat-to-democracy-2.html
[EXCERPT]
Sometimes it seems that Democrats do this with even more grim regularity
than Republicans. John Edwards, for example, reassured the nation that "the
hand of God today is in every step of what happens with me and every human
being that exists on this planet." In the same forum, Hillary Clinton
proclaimed that she "had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and
the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world
thought. And that's all one can expect or hope for."
When religious language enters the political arena in this way, as an end
in itself, it always sends the same symbolic message: Yes, Virginia (or
Iowa or New Hampshire or South Carolina) there are absolute values,
universal truths that can never change. You are not adrift in a sea of
moral chaos. Elect me and you're sure to have a fixed mooring to hold you
and your community fast forever.
That message does its work in cultural depths that arguments about the
separation of church and state can never touch. Even if the candidates
themselves don't always understand what their words are doing, this is the
biggest, most overlooked piece in today's faith and politics puzzle—and
once you start looking for it, you find it nearly everywhere on the
political landscape.
The Threat to Democracy
So, when it comes to religion and politics, here's the most critical
question: Should we turn the political arena into a stage to dramatize our
quest for moral certainty? The simple answer is no—for lots of reasons.
For starters, it's a direct threat to democracy. The essence of our system
is that we, the people, get to choose our values. We don't discover them
inscribed in the cosmos. So everything must be open to question, to debate,
and therefore to change. In a democracy, there should be no fixed truth
except that everyone has the right to offer a new view—and to change his or
her mind. It's a process whose outcome should never be predictable, a
process without end. A claim to absolute truth—any absolute truth—stops
that process.
[end excerpt]
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation
of Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is
why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 10:13:13 AM |
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"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that do.
Greywolf
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 02:34:48 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:13:13 -0600, Greywolf wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that do.
Greywolf
That is not permissible by Protestantism, they must spread the world of
Jesus.
Whether you like it or not.
-- Regards, Curly
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| User: "Christopher A.Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 02:40:47 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:34:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
<Curly.is.not@home.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:13:13 -0600, Greywolf wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that do.
Greywolf
That is not permissible by Protestantism, they must spread the world of
Jesus.
They imagine their freedom to practice their religion entitles them
force others to, because it is part of it.
Whether you like it or not.
However we are under no obligation to put up with it.
We have our own First Amendment freedoms of speech and of religious
conscience.
The problem is that they are sociopaths who imagine theirs trumps
ours.
When in fact it stops at the point where it abridges ours.
-- Regards, Curly
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http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 03:34:11 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:40:47 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:34:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
<Curly.is.not@home.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:13:13 -0600, Greywolf wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that do.
Greywolf
That is not permissible by Protestantism, they must spread the world of
Jesus.
They imagine their freedom to practice their religion entitles them
force others to, because it is part of it.
Whether you like it or not.
However we are under no obligation to put up with it.
We have our own First Amendment freedoms of speech and of religious
conscience.
The problem is that they are sociopaths who imagine theirs trumps
ours.
When in fact it stops at the point where it abridges ours.
Only if you speak out otherwise you/I will be steamrollered.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 11:48:30 AM |
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On Jan 18, 12:40=A0pm, Christopher A.Lee <ca...@optonline.net> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:34:48 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
<Curly.is....@home.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:13:13 -0600, Greywolf wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeye...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep=
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose i=
t on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that=
do.
Greywolf
That is not permissible by Protestantism, they must spread the world of
Jesus. =A0
They imagine their freedom to practice their religion entitles them
force others to, because it is part of it.
Whether you like it or not.
However we are under no obligation to put up with it.
We have our own First Amendment freedoms of speech and of religious
conscience.
The problem is that they are sociopaths who imagine theirs trumps
ours.
This statement is key: those who think religion is necessary for a
moral life are actually sociopaths who cannot figure out how to behave
morally or ethically otherwise. They assume that all others impaired
in the same way.
I'm willing to concede that religion plays a valuable role for people
who are innately deficient in moral/ethical reasoning; but it is
absolutely unnecessary for the rest of us.
mlw
When in fact it stops at the point where it abridges ours.
-- Regards, Curly
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=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
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Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "Pubkeybreaker" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
21 Jan 2008 07:23:16 AM |
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On Jan 18, 11:13=A0am, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeye...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it o=
n
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that do=
..
The 11'th Commandment (according to George Carlin)
Keep thy religion to thyself.
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| User: "Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 12:55:47 PM |
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On Jan 18, 11:13=EF=BF=BDam, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeye...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it o=
n
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that do=
..
Greywolf
Q. Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
A. Religion is a threat to the entire planet and possibly even
beyond.
" Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason
and common sense."
---- -Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire",
" Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes
place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for
the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will
hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a
prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being."
--- Albert Einstein
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 08:13:47 PM |
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Last time that great scribe Raymond <Bluerhymer@aol.com> chipped away at=20
his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
On Jan 18, 11:13=EF=BF=3D3Fam, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeye...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose i=
t on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that=
do.
Greywolf
=20
Q. Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
=20
A. Religion is a threat to the entire planet and possibly even
beyond.
=20
" Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason
and common sense."
---- -Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire",
=20
" Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes
place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for
the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will
hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a
prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being."
--- Albert Einstein
Heaven as described by the god botherers is an absolute monarchy. Belief=20
that a "kingdom" as a desirable to plan to move to and an absolute ruler=20
there is not a passion for freedom which is what democracy is all about.=20
In heaven you have no rights or rights of appeal, you believe believe=20
that one character is absolutely right in everything. You have no=20
entitlements - only privileges kindly bestowed by a deity. The response=20
to this criticism is usually something about this being God's universe=20
anyway which only reduces the heavenly subjects to owned serfs. The=20
choice you have is to reject this benevolent "gift" of serfdom and=20
settle for hellfire and brimstone forever. Only the deluded could think=20
for a moment that this is "salvation".
--=20
Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,=20
Chief EAC prophet=20
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make=20
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
04 Feb 2008 06:37:01 PM |
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Quite profound!
"Meteorite Debris" <epicurusboth@YOUR_SHOESaapt.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.221118e2c93e0a6f989929@news.ade.connect.com.au...
Last time that great scribe Raymond <Bluerhymer@aol.com> chipped away at
his/her stone these gems of wisdom for posterity ...
On Jan 18, 11:13ï¿=3Fam, "Greywolf" <greyw...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
"buckeye" <buckeye...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:kod1p3dgqqg4inbcnhjhig9enieg8ih2ik@4ax.com...
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Not if religious individuals recognize it for what it truly is and keep
their religious beliefs largely personal. Oh, and don't try to impose it
on
people who want no part of it . . . all the while respecting those that
do.
Greywolf
Q. Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
A. Religion is a threat to the entire planet and possibly even
beyond.
" Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason
and common sense."
---- -Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire",
" Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes
place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for
the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will
hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a
prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being."
--- Albert Einstein
Heaven as described by the god botherers is an absolute monarchy. Belief
that a "kingdom" as a desirable to plan to move to and an absolute ruler
there is not a passion for freedom which is what democracy is all about.
In heaven you have no rights or rights of appeal, you believe believe
that one character is absolutely right in everything. You have no
entitlements - only privileges kindly bestowed by a deity. The response
to this criticism is usually something about this being God's universe
anyway which only reduces the heavenly subjects to owned serfs. The
choice you have is to reject this benevolent "gift" of serfdom and
settle for hellfire and brimstone forever. Only the deluded could think
for a moment that this is "salvation".
--
Remove both YOUR_SHOES before replying
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make
you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
02 Feb 2008 01:31:50 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:26:46 -0500, buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Osama didn't win, Bush lost. Strike that, Osama didn't win, _we_ lost.
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| User: "Peter Franks" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 04:27:47 PM |
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Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:26:46 -0500, buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
I am religious. According to you, am I therefore weak minded and immature?
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 06:21:40 PM |
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Peter Franks wrote:
| Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
|> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:26:46 -0500, buckeye wrote:
|>
|>> Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
|>
|> Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
|> other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
|> and cigarettes, so should religion.
|
| I am religious. According to you, am I therefore weak minded and
immature?
|
Yes.
And the sooner you admit it, the sooner you can get help getting over it.
- --
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
A.A #1143 http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Don Martin" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 05:41:14 PM |
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On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:27:47 -0800, Peter Franks <none@none.com> wrote:
Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:26:46 -0500, buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
I am religious. According to you, am I therefore weak minded and immature?
He says religion is a threat to the _sanity_ of the weak minded and immature,
not that religion contains _only_ the weak minded and immature. Incapacity for
reading comprehension may, however, be a sign of weak mindedness.
aa #2278 If you can't be a dirty old man, what is the point of being an old man?
Fidei defensor (Hon. Antipodean)
The Squeeky Wheel: http://home.comcast.net/~drdonmartin/
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
04 Feb 2008 02:19:38 AM |
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On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:27:47 -0800, Peter Franks wrote:
Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:26:46 -0500, buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
I am religious. According to you, am I therefore weak minded and
immature?
Yes. Not a difficult extrapolation, is it?
But you are also of legal age so I wouldn't deny you the right to religion
any more than I would deny a sex predator the right to masturbate.
Allowing you, or the sex offender to teach mental or physical masturbation
to children isn't a good thing for the next generation.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Osama didn't win, Bush lost. Strike that, Osama didn't win, _we_ lost.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Michael" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
02 Feb 2008 07:08:46 PM |
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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:31:50 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
Any limitation on free agency is a threat to democracy. You seem to be
blind to your own impact on democracy.
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 12:03:35 AM |
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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:08:46 -0700, Michael wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:31:50 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
Any limitation on free agency is a threat to democracy.
To a sentient being capable of informed consent, yes. Weak-minded and
immature need protection, that is what sets man apart from beast. Man
does not prey on his own.
You seem to be blind to your own impact on democracy.
Thank you for that observation. You seem to be a crazymotherfucker
religionist.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Osama didn't win, Bush lost. Strike that, Osama didn't win, _we_ lost.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "3941 Dead" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 11:25:47 AM |
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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:03:35 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
<Curly.is.not@home.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:08:46 -0700, Michael wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:31:50 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
Any limitation on free agency is a threat to democracy.
To a sentient being capable of informed consent, yes. Weak-minded and
immature need protection, that is what sets man apart from beast. Man
does not prey on his own.
Generally doesn't EAT fellow humans, yeah.
Prey on their own? Oh, hell yes. That's what capitalism is all
about!
Organized religion, too.
You seem to be blind to your own impact on democracy.
Thank you for that observation. You seem to be a crazymotherfucker
religionist.
-- Regards, Curly
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Osama didn't win, Bush lost. Strike that, Osama didn't win, _we_ lost.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
What do you call a Republican with a conscience?
An ex-Republican.
http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8827 (From Yang, AthD (h.c)
"I simply can not believe this is what the Republican party has
become. I just can’t. It just makes me sick to think all those years
of supporting this party, and this is what it has become. Even if you
don’t like the S-Chip expansion, it is hard to deny what Republicans
are- a bunch of bitter, nasty, petty, snarling, sneering, vicious
thugs, peering through people’s windows so they can make fun of their
misfortune.
I’m registering Independent tomorrow."
Putsch: leading America to asymetric warfare since 2001
Not dead, in jail, or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.
For the finest in liberal/leftist commentary,
http://www.zeppscommentaries.com
For news feed (free, 10-20 articles a day)
Zepps_News-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
For essays (donations accepted, 2 articles/week)
Zepps_essays-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
a.a. #2211 -- Bryan Zepp Jamieson
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| User: "Steve" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
03 Feb 2008 06:25:59 PM |
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On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 17:25:47 GMT, 3941 Dead
<zepp22113941@finestplanet.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:03:35 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
<Curly.is.not@home.com> wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:08:46 -0700, Michael wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:31:50 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Religion is a threat to sanity of the weak minded and immature. Just as
other addictive substances are limited by age, such as alcoholic drinks
and cigarettes, so should religion.
Any limitation on free agency is a threat to democracy.
To a sentient being capable of informed consent, yes. Weak-minded and
immature need protection, that is what sets man apart from beast. Man
does not prey on his own.
Generally doesn't EAT fellow humans, yeah.
Prey on their own? Oh, hell yes. That's what capitalism is all
about!
I think Zepp is imagining that he's one of our own again..... he's
not.
"And if I sell stock, my asset level is reduced by the
amount of that stock, EVEN IF the stock I sell is sold
for more than I paid for it."
--Milt Shook.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.impeach.bush/msg/0f58111c6acb0ce8?hl=en&
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| User: "Bill Dukenfield" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 10:47:32 AM |
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buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Commentary: Faith talk on the campaign trail.
By Ira Chernus
January 14, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2008/01/is-religion-a-threat-to-democracy.html
Religion in general is not. However, religious fundamentalism, of all
flavors, is the greatest threat to freedom in the 21st century.
JAM
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| User: "Curly Surmudgeon" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 02:32:04 PM |
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On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:47:32 -0500, Bill Dukenfield wrote:
buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Commentary: Faith talk on the campaign trail.
By Ira Chernus
January 14, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2008/01/is-religion-a-threat-to-democracy.html
Religion in general is not. However, religious fundamentalism, of all
flavors, is the greatest threat to freedom in the 21st century.
JAM
Fundamentalism is a byproduct of religion in general. Both are examples
of insanity in action and we never know when either will erupt and go
ballistic however we do know that both believe in magic, superstition, and
boogeymen intent on subjugating mankind.
That is not a net positive for democracy.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://feeds.feedburner.com/SL/thegreen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Is Religion a Threat to Democracy? |
18 Jan 2008 11:51:40 AM |
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On Jan 18, 11:47=EF=BF=BDam, Bill Dukenfield <BillDukenfi...@nospam.net>
wrote:
buckeye wrote:
Is Religion a Threat to Democracy?
Commentary: Faith talk on the campaign trail.
By Ira Chernus
January 14, 2008
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/tomdispatch/2008/01/is-religion...
Religion in general is not. However, religious fundamentalism, of all
flavors, is the greatest threat to freedom in the 21st century.
JAM
We Desperately Need The "Confessing Church"
by Chuck Baldwin
January 4, 2008
If the reader has not already done so, I again urge you to read the
book, Hitler's Cross, which was written by Erwin Lutzer and published
by Moody Press. This book should be "required reading" for every
pastor and Christian layman in America. In his book, Lutzer focuses on
the attitudes and actions of Germany's pastors and churches during the
rise and reign of the Third Reich. It is a masterpiece.
For those of us living in a country and time far removed from Hitler's
Germany, it is hard to comprehend how that nation's Christians--and
especially its ministers--could have been so thoroughly taken in by
old Adolf. We assume such an event could never happen again--
especially to us. However, to any honest observer of history, the
conditions of the Church in America today are eerily similar to those
of the Church in Nazi Germany.
For one thing, as did the Church in Nazi Germany, the Church in
America has become infatuated with Big Government. Historically,
patriotism in the United States meant love for God, love for family,
and love for freedom and independence. Today, however, Christians of
all persuasions have come to accept and even embrace the Nanny State,
complete with its intrinsic obsession with an omnipotent federal
bureaucracy that exercises perpetual surveillance and absolute control
over every area of our lives.
For example, according to today's Republican Presidential candidates
(with the exception of Ron Paul), patriotism demands that we click our
heels to the Department of Homeland Security and that we
enthusiastically support aggressive, preemptive war. This is exactly
the kind of redefinition of patriotism used so brilliantly by Hitler
and his fellow propagandists. Yes, Martha, it appears that history
really does repeat itself.
When Ron Paul was asked about Mike Huckabee's overt usage of a cross
for a campaign advertisement, he quoted Sinclair Lewis as saying,
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and
carrying a cross." Many Christians railed against Dr. Paul for making
this comment. However, the truth is, Ron Paul (himself a committed
Christian) is one hundred percent right! (To see how Hitler used this
same tactic, I invite readers to note the photograph of the German
Fuhrer in Lutzer's book, on page 75, which shows Hitler coming out of
church with a large emblem of the Cross directly over his head. This
photo was used extensively by Hitler during his political campaigns.)
More than any other Republican Presidential candidate, Mike Huckabee
carries his Big Government machinations on a cross. I strongly
recommend that readers take a look at Selwyn Duke's excellent expos=EF=BF=BD=
on Mike Huckabee at http://www.newswithviews.com/Duke/selwyn79.htm
(There is a candidate in the presidential race who has a serious
religion problem. No, it's not Mormon Mitt or recently-religious Rudy.
It is Mike Huckabee.)
In his book, Lutzer notes that the tool Adolf Hitler used to ascend to
power in Germany was his ability to wrap the Nazi flag around the
Cross of Christ. In fact, Hitler often required that the Cross be
emblazoned directly in the middle of the Nazi flag. These flags were
not only prominently displayed in parades, but also in church
auditoriums.
As a result of Hitler's brilliant deception, Christians throughout
Germany were convinced that he was "God's man." They saw him as more
than a political leader: he was a spiritual leader as well. They saw
him as their country's President and as their Christian brother. If
Hitler said the German people needed to surrender their firearms, they
saw it as their Christian duty to comply; if Hitler said they needed
to enact a total surveillance society, they freely gave up their
privacy; if Hitler said Germany needed to invade other nations for its
security, Christians were among the first to volunteer; and if Hitler
said they could only be good Christians if they supported the Nazi
Party, they enthusiastically supported the Nazi Party.
In short, Germany's Christians and pastors surrendered their hearts
and minds to Adolf Hitler, because they believed him to be one of
them. What they never would have surrendered to a professing agnostic,
they gladly surrendered to a professing Christian. Truly, fascism came
to Germany "wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
Of course, there were a few in Germany who saw through Hitler's
deception. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Christian minister who actively
opposed Hitler by organizing what he called the "Confessing Church."
These were believers who would not surrender Christ's sphere of
authority to Hitler. They saw through "Hitler's Cross." Unfortunately,
of the more than 14,000 pastors in Germany, only 800 joined with
Bonhoeffer.
To the vast majority of Germany's pastors, Bonhoeffer was an
"extremist," or a "kook," or a "nut." They relegated Bonhoeffer to the
fringe of Christendom. They believed Hitler and repudiated Bonhoeffer;
they chose Hitler's "German Church" over the Confessing Church. In
retrospect, however, who would they follow today, if they had the
chance?
Likewise, many Christians and ministers today have succumbed to the
purveyors of internationalism. Issues such as trade, climate control,
health and education--and even war--are the tools globalists use to
contruct their One World Order.
For example, Mike Huckabee's success in Iowa is largely due to the
pastors and Christians of that State buying into his "Christian"
campaign. In a manner very similar to the 2000 campaign of George W.
Bush, Huckabee has carried his political campaign on the Cross. At the
same time, however, Mike Huckabee (as does George W. Bush) embraces
and promotes globalism. And, unfortunately, many Christians and
pastors do not seem to notice or care.
In a previous column (See it here: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cba=
rchive_20071207.html
), I wrote this:
"Have you wondered why Mike Huckabee is suddenly getting so much
favorable attention from the mainstream media (who themselves are
controlled by this gaggle of global elite)? To find the answer as to
why a professing pro-life, conservative Christian would suddenly
become the darling of the media, look no further than the fact that
just a couple of months ago, Mr. Huckabee appeared before the
globalist-minded Council on Foreign Relations. (Read his speech here:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/14335/ ) And when he did, it became
abundantly clear that Huckabee was a man globalists could trust.
"By the way, as you read Huckabee's speech, you will find that he is
George W. Bush on steroids! This is a man who intends to meddle in the
affairs of nations around the world like you can't believe. Talk about
entangling alliances: Huckabee intends for our State, Energy, Housing,
Education, Justice, Treasury, and Transportation departments to spend
untold billions of tax dollars on just about anything and everything,
including schools, medical facilities, roads, sewage treatment, water
filtration, electricity, and legal and banking systems in countries
all over the globe. And that is exactly the kind of man the Council on
Foreign Relations (CFR) wants in Washington."
After reporting the connection between Mike Huckabee and the CFR,
numerous Christians quickly consigned my soul to the regions of the
damned and accused me of being a "nut." Some emphatically declared
that I had no right to criticize "a Christian brother." Now, who does
that sound like?
More importantly, however, is the question, Were my remarks accurate?
And the answer is, Yes, they were.
We now learn that Mike Huckabee has named Richard Haass as his advisor
on foreign policy. And just who is Richard Haass? He is the President
of the CFR. And what does Haass believe? He believes that the United
States (and every other country) must surrender its sovereignty to
international or global entities. On February 21, 2006, Haass wrote a
column for the Taipei Times entitled, "State Sovereignty Must be
Altered in Globalized Era." This treatise is nothing more than an
explicit solicitation for global government. (Read it here:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2006/02/21/2003294021
)
In his treatise, Haass writes, "For 350 years, sovereignty--the notion
that states are the central actors on the world stage and that
governments are essentially free to do what they want within their own
territory but not within the territory of other states--has provided
the organizing principle of international relations. The time has come
to rethink this notion."
He also wrote, "Moreover, states must be prepared to cede some
sovereignty to world bodies if the international system is to
function."
He went on to say, "[S]overeignty must be redefined if states are to
cope with globalization."
He further said, "Globalization thus implies that sovereignty is not
only becoming weaker in reality, but that it needs to become weaker.
States would be wise to weaken sovereignty in order to protect
themselves . . . Sovereignty is no longer a sanctuary."
Haass also wrote, "Our notion of sovereignty must therefore be
conditional, even contractual, rather than absolute."
Haass then summarized his desire for global government by saying, "The
goal should be to redefine sovereignty for the era of globalization,
to find a balance between a world of fully sovereign states and an
international system of either world government or anarchy."
These are the sentiments of the man that the "Christian conservative"
Mike Huckabee has chosen to be his foreign policy advisor. Can you not
see how, once again, a global government elitist wraps his Big
Government ambitions around the Cross of Jesus Christ?
We desperately need Bonhoeffer's "Confessing Church" in America. If
pastors do not quickly wake up to the way most of our politicians--
even those who profess to be Christians--are selling out America's
sovereignty and independence, our wonderful country will not long
survive.
I have attempted to resurrect the "Confessing Church" in the form of a
21st Century "Black Regiment." Students of U.S. history recognize the
"Black Regiment" as those Colonial Patriot-Pastors who led their
churches to assist the efforts of America's fight for independence.
Currently, we have over 100 pastors, evangelists, and missionaries
listed on our Black Regiment directory.
See the Black Regiment directory here: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/black=
regiment.php
I, once again, encourage readers to buy Lutzer's book, Hitler's Cross.
I'm praying that this time there will arise an army of Dietrich
Bonhoeffers to lead a modern-day revival of true patriotism: love for
God, love for family, and a strong love and commitment to freedom and
independence. Call it the "Confessing Church," or the "Black
Regiment." Call it what you will: we need it desperately, and we need
it now.
Chuck Baldwin Live
P.O. Box 37070
Pensacola, Florida 32526
=EF=BF=BD Chuck Baldwin
This column is archived as http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_2=
0080104.html
The American Spectator
John Cornwell, a Roman Catholic, in his book Hitler's Pope (1999)
blamed Pius XII not only for silence, but for active collaboration
with the Nazi regime. ...THE HISTORICAL RECORD is clear. There can be
no minimizing the horrors of those manifestations of Christian anti-
Semitism that were a curse in the story of Nazi-dominated Europe. The
Polish villagers who murdered their neighbors in Jedwabne had been
churchgoers all their lives. The Roman Catholic priests who, on many
documented occasions, turned their flocks against the Jews throughout
Eastern Europe were ordained in the rites of Rome. The Slovak leader,
Father Jozef Tiso, who asked the Germans to deport his Jews to German-
occupied Poland and to slave labor -- and death -- was an ordained
priest.
SEE Hitler's Pope
Pope Benedict XVI - Former Hitler Youth [PHOTOS]
Roman Catholicism's Nazi History Exposed!
On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday.
The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a
tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send
"warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and
the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the
Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."
(Source: Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John
Cornwell)
One must not forget that Germany represented the most Catholic country
in the world in the 1930s and 40s.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/former_=
hitler_youth_elected_pope.htm
GOTT MIT UNS
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