| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"me" |
| Date: |
05 Sep 2005 05:25:54 PM |
| Object: |
Is the Universe Infinite? |
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 06:10:13 PM |
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On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:21:28 -0500, WCB <wbarwell@Mungggedd.mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
People who believe in the existence of Satan are Satanic. One can believe
in God or not believe in God - and all is well.
Ain't no satan, ain't no god.
Romans 11 has Paul telling us God created people
who do not believe in Jesus.
God created all people. Some say yes, some say no.
Are you ready?
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 01:19:09 PM |
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WCB wrote:
Ain't no satan, ain't no god.
Romans 11 has Paul telling us God created people
who do not believe in Jesus.
Don't feed the trolls!
The drivel that you're responding to is as hilarious as it is
priceless: two complete blockheads ("Me" and Dumbass Whineyass, aka
"Duke") - neither of whom has any clue whatsoever as to what they're
talking about - fighting it out over who can prove a non-existent god!
Isn't that precious?
Have you ever noticed (whilst you yourself remain unnoticed) a couple
of kids playing together and seen the amazing non-sequiturs they come
up with? It's just like that with these two. Let's leave them to it
and just observe. We can have hours of fun.
Budikka
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 06:11:56 PM |
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On 8 Sep 2005 11:19:09 -0700, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote:
The drivel that you're responding to is as hilarious as it is
priceless: two complete blockheads ("Me" and Dumbass Whineyass, aka
"Duke") - neither of whom has any clue whatsoever as to what they're
talking about - fighting it out over who can prove a non-existent god!
Isn't that precious?
nope, you've never seen we try to prove God. Gee, dud, why don't you pay
attention for a change.
Have you ever noticed (whilst you yourself remain unnoticed) a couple
of kids playing together and seen the amazing non-sequiturs they come
up with? It's just like that with these two. Let's leave them to it
and just observe. We can have hours of fun.
Budikka
You really should see how much fun I have with you. Dud, you're EASY.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "nJb" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe heexists? |
09 Sep 2005 04:34:11 PM |
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me wrote:
Why did God create atheists?
I think that His reasoning was something like: If everyone believes in me then
whenever problems arise they'll expect me to solve them. If I create atheists they'll face
up to the problems and try to solve them, and, as a consequence of their endeavours,
those who believe in me will benefit.
So - as an atheist, I feel especially proud that God created me in order to keep His
system running.
Man created god to lean upon in his uselessness.
--
Jack
Plonked by Native American
bobo1148atxmissiondotcom
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
05 Sep 2005 08:39:37 PM |
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me wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
It is not possible for the universe to be infinite.
I don't believe you.
Mark.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 12:23:51 AM |
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me wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
Einstein said that it was possible that models of an infinite universe could be
constructed from General Relativity if certain criteria were proven to be true .. in which
case there must be something else governing the universe other than general relativiity.
You obviously don't know much about GR or the statement.
He himself was well aware that infinity cannot exist.
Prove it. You get a Fields medal if you do.
So far the axiom of infinity is one of the assumed independant axioms
of ZF set theory, and if you can prove it false, or even come up with a
different set theory where its proven false (kind of like Choice in
NF), then you're well on your way.
But you don't have any idea what I'm talking about, so you're just
being a posturing troll.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
05 Sep 2005 05:34:21 PM |
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me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
The reason that the universe is infinite is by the definition of the
word "universe." Since the "universe" is simply "all there is,"
anything that exists beyond a "finite universe" would have to be, by
definition, part of the universe. Therefore, by definition, the
universe HAS To be both finite and infinite.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
It was Einstein's idea of a joke.
--
****************************************************
* DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "If God had intended us to walk, he wouldn't *
* have invented roller skates." --Willy Wonka *
****************************************************
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Government Surveillance |
05 Sep 2005 07:43:55 PM |
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Cities are blanketed with microwaves from mobile phone masts. Anything that moves
causes a disturbance in this microwave "atmosphere". This is being monitored by a
central computer. This setup is called 'Social Activity Tracking Area Network' (SATAN)
I'm planning to leave (London) before they suss what I'm up to.
Now it's your turn.
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
05 Sep 2005 06:51:49 PM |
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DanielSan <daniel-san@myrealbox.com> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
The reason that the universe is infinite is by the definition of the
word "universe." Since the "universe" is simply "all there is,"
anything that exists beyond a "finite universe" would have to be, by
definition, part of the universe. Therefore, by definition, the
universe HAS To be both finite and infinite.
Pythagoras and Aristotle said that the universe was finite and could NOT be infinite.
Outside of the finite universe is infinite nothing (only nothing can be infinite). As there is
a limit to the number of possible rearrangements that a finite collection of things can
perform then the universe must be performing a cycle of activity. The "age" of the
universe is the length of one cycle. This cycle is repeated an infinite number of times.
The universe has no beginning and no end.
Pythagoras and Aristotle (and many others) were aware that the universe must
necessarily be of very great age. The actual age (one cycle) of the universe, when one
considers, energy, sub-atomic particles, "dark" matter, and so on, must be much
greater than the 14-15 billion years cosmologists are presenting the public with. If the
smallest "thing" in the universe corresponds to a billion years then the age of the
universe is the sum total of all these things in the universe, sort of thing (it is probably
much greater than this).
A couple of hundred years ago authorities said the universe was a few thousand years
old. Then Darwin and others extended it to millions of years. Cosmologists declared it to
be billions of years.
The assertion by cosmologists that their figure of 14-15 billion years is close to the truth
has no more validity than Bishop Usher's statement that the universe was created
around 4,000 bc.
Just as out solar system is a mere speck in the observable universe so the observable
universe is a mere speck in the totality. The Big Bang (if it is happening) is really a very
small "pop".
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 09:32:35 PM |
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On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 23:51:49 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
The assertion by cosmologists that their figure of 14-15 billion years is close to the truth
has no more validity than Bishop Usher's statement that the universe was created
around 4,000 bc.
Well, if you don't count all that, you know, "empirical evidence" and
"logical argumentation" and such... And besides, the general flavor
of the claim is that 14-15 billion years is "closER", not that it's
necessarily "close".
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
Those who say, "Now is not the time for placing blame"
...
....are quite often to blame....
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
05 Sep 2005 08:28:28 PM |
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DanielSan wrote:
me wrote:
The correct answer is "No"
The reason that the universe is infinite is by the definition of the
word "universe." Since the "universe" is simply "all there is,"
anything that exists beyond a "finite universe" would have to be, by
definition, part of the universe. Therefore, by definition, the
universe HAS To be both finite and infinite.
If "all that there is" is finite then it's finite - there is no beyond
or outside.
If "all that there is" is infinite then its infinite.
The question is not resolved/contained in the definition.
There are a few streams in curent thinking - Big Bang cosmology
basically says the universe has a positive curvature - which means the
universe its finite in space and time.
Some versions of string theory (in particular "M" theory) postulates an
infinite 10 or 11 dimensional universe in which our finite 4
dimensional universe exists - that the big bang results from the
collision of branes in higher dimensions.
The trouble with "m" theory and string theory in general is that it is
difficult to see how it can be a scientific theory - how it can be
testable/falsifiable.
I believe (for metaphysical, intuitive, asthetic, non rational, reasons
that the cosmos is infinite - whether or not the universe (defined as
our space time and its contents) is actually finite or not.)
Mark.
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 03:44:07 AM |
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me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Nope... the correct answer is: "We don't know."
RS
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