| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"me" |
| Date: |
05 Sep 2005 10:25:54 PM |
| Object: |
Is the Universe Infinite? |
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 12:47:22 AM |
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"me" <here@now.com> said:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
He was saying you cannot overestimate the stupidity of humans. He was
referring to the universe in the same sentence, because it was his
gig.
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 12:47:53 AM |
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"me" <here@now.com> said:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Sounds like a troll to me.
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 03:14:15 PM |
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"me" <here@now.com> said:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Or, define the question in ways that science can answer (eg via
hypothesis-testing experiments) and then see if an answer can be
obtained. Until it is so defined, the answer is "what do you mean"?
After it is so defined but before the experiments are completed, the
answer is "We don't know"?
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 09:35:41 AM |
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"me" <here@now.com> wrote in message
news:431cc66c$0$1563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to
prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people,
many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is
finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to
the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such
people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most
of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to
understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was,
or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
First show that there is something that can be defined as a universe.
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 01:39:30 AM |
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"me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
God exists
It is possible that God exists
God does not exist
Infinity exists
It is possible that infinity exists
Infinity does not exist
Where do you stand on the issue? (Most cosmologists are of the opinion that God does
not exist and it is possible that infinity exists)
The truth is that neither God nor infinity exists.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 03:40:34 AM |
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me wrote:
"me" <here@now.com> wrote:
God exists
I don't believe so.
It is possible that God exists
I don't believe so.
I have heard it argued that If it is *possible* that God exists then it
must exist - the corrolary of this is that if it doesnt exist then it
must not be possible!
I don't know whether or not it exist so I dont know whether or not it
is possible that it exists.
I know that I am not interested in worshiping it just in case it might
exist.
I know that humans invent gods and that it is silly behaviour.
I have no reason to suppose that "God" is not one of the made up ones.
God does not exist
I think this is true. Most gods are made up - some are *based* on real
things - like the Sun or an Emperor- some are purely imagininary.
I believe that God is a purely imaginary one.
Infinity exists
Infinity is a concept.
Concepts "exist" in a different sense (mode) to beings.
It is possible that infinity exists
Infinity does not exist
Infinity exists in the same way that "greater than" or "incomplete" or
"longer" exist.
One piece of string can be longer than another piece of string - what
exists is the string - "longer" doesn't have to "exist" for one piece
of string to be longer than another.
Sand exists - you can ask "is there an infinite amount of sand?" but
that is a different question (a meaningful one) to the one you asked.
Where do you stand on the issue? (Most cosmologists are of the opinion that God does
not exist and it is possible that infinity exists)
A cosmologist opinion on the existence of God is as relavent as a
butcher's or a bus driver's or a Catholic Priest's opinion on the
existence of God.
A person's occupation is irrelavent to the question.
No one *knows* anything at all about God - some people know lots of
ideas, stories and opinions about God - but no one knows even the
smallest fact about it - it doesnt matter whether you are a new born
baby, a nobel prize winning physicist or the Pope - you know *exactlty*
the same amount of information about God. None.
Mountains,trees and rocks are different - you can make up stories or
have opinions aboput mountains, trees and rocks - but it is possible to
know something about actual mountains, trees and rocks.
The truth is that neither God nor infinity exists.
Space and/or time may be infinite or they may be finite. "infinite" is
a *concept* not a thing which can exist or not exist.
Mark.
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Infinity cannot exist in reality - Aristotle |
06 Sep 2005 03:01:36 AM |
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Do you think he was wrong?
God does not exist
Infinity does not exist
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Infinity cannot exist in reality - Aristotle |
06 Sep 2005 08:06:02 AM |
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me wrote:
Do you think he was wrong?
Yes. About this and a few other things.
He thought he had the answer to Zeno's paradox - but he didn't.
His answer is no answer - he just avoids the question.
Aristotle was clever in many ways but he didnt have a very
"mathematical" mind and in this sense at least was the intelectual
inferior of many of the pre-socratics.
It wasnt until Newton and Liebnitz invented the calculus that Zenos
paradox began to be dealt with in a rational manner.
The fact that ~ 4 centuries latter people still think Aristotle said
somthing clever about Zeno speaks of the inertia and conservatism in
philosophical thought.
Aristotle also proposed that the Brain was an organ for cooling the
blood (even though Hippocrates had already noted years before that a
blow to the head confussed a man's thoughts or brought unconsciousness)
and that women have less teeth than men.
"Aristotle maintained that women have fewer teeth than men;
although he was twice married, it never occurred to him to verify this
statement by examining his wives' mouths.
Bertrand Russell, Impact of Science on Society (1952) ch. 1
British author, mathematician, & philosopher (1872 - 1970)"
The belief that women have less teeth than men was held as true by the
educated up until the renaissance when anatomists actually studied
human skulls - such is the reverence for Aristotles infalibility.
Mark.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 02:29:42 AM |
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On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:25:54 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
That doesn't sound very entertaining. Why would one want to do that?
:-?
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
I don't know. Why _is_ it possible? :-?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Okay, so just out of curiosity, why are you so absolutely 100% sure
that the universe is finite?
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
Ummm... That the universe and human stupidity are infinite, and he's
not sure about the former.
Glad to be of assistance to ya'. :-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
Those who say, "Now is not the time for placing blame"
...
....are quite often to blame....
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 12:27:12 AM |
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Uncle Buck wrote:
On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:25:54 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
I don't know. Why _is_ it possible? :-?
Aristotle said there was no such thing as an actual infinite.
That's it.
If you worship the ghost of Aristotle his declarations are not to be
questioned or doubted.
See William L. Craig arguing for Kalms Cosmological argument for an
axample of this.
(I just searched google and found a qazilion articles commenting on WLC
argument but cant find a copy of the actual argument!)
Discussions/rebutals
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/cosmological.html#kalam
Mark.
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| User: "Azrael" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 01:55:35 AM |
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On this day Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:25:54 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong. One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Well since the universe that we percieve is but 14-15 billion yrs olds
and when the iniverse as a whole came into being increased in size
2^100 mere secondes after it's inception our universe is but a speck
on the whole of it. the physical size of creation(?) is indeed finite
the space that the whole inhabits could very well be inifinite but it
is beyond ability to measure the size with any degree of accuarcy. One
must also look to string theory (M Theory) to see that our physical
realm is only 4 dimensions of the 10/11 or so that exist.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
That he was not sure of the actual finiteaty of the universe an area
in which he was very knowledgeable in and that humans had no end to
thier stupidity as demonstrated by your assertation. IOW it was his
wasy of a making a joke.
Azrael
Say hello to my little killfile
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 01:48:07 AM |
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me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
I'll take Universes for $200, Alex.
"This universe is infinite, or maybe not."
Our universe! Our universe, Alex!
[Canadian accent] Sorry. You didn't phrase your response in the form
of a question.
Dammit! If only I'd been more careful...
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 01:08:10 AM |
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me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
Sufficiently stupid people can be 100% certain of anything.
There is no limit to how stupid humans can be.
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are, when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong.
'Cause you say so!
Wow!
One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be, infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
He was saying that the universe could be infinite or finite -
And he was saying there is no limit to how stupid people can be.
Mark.
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
06 Sep 2005 01:33:27 AM |
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"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
It is not possible for the universe to be infinite.
Proof that the universe is finite is not required. One does not need to prove that the
universe is finite in order to prove that it is not
infinite. One can just simply say:
The universe is finite ... then sit back and watch the fun, as people, many with a
much more sophisticated knowledge of
cosmology and mathematics than oneself, argue otherwise.
Why is it possible to be so absolutely, 100% sure that the universe is finite, and
dismiss the possibility that one could, maybe, be
wrong?
Sufficiently stupid people can be 100% certain of anything.
There is no limit to how stupid humans can be.
It is possible to be 100% certain.
If one looks into the world of cosmology one finds frequent references to the
question of whether the universe is finite or infinite.
Believers in an infinite universe seems to be in the majority. Such people, despite
the fact that they possess very sophisticated
intellects and their knowledge of mathematics is beyond the grasp of most of us are,
when they say the universe is infinite, or that
it could be infinite, simply wrong.
'Cause you say so!
Wow!
Its up to people who calim infinity can exist to prove their point. All they do is come up
with numbers and symbols and shapes and say: This proves infinity!
One doesn't have to know any maths to understand this. Indeed, one doesn't even
need to
know how to count.
Einstein said:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about
the former.
This is used by people as proof that Einstein believed the universe was, or could be,
infinite.
What is Einstein REALLY saying here?
He was saying that the universe could be infinite or finite -
Einstein said that it was possible that models of an infinite universe could be
constructed from General Relativity if certain criteria were proven to be true .. in which
case there must be something else governing the universe other than general relativiity.
He himself was well aware that infinity cannot exist.
And he was saying there is no limit to how stupid people can be.
Mark.
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 02:34:13 AM |
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On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 01:33:27 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
It is not possible for the universe to be infinite.
A definitive, positive assertion, and nothing more. IOW, you really
_are_ just a troll disinterested in any actual conversation. Thanks
for making that clear. ;-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
Those who say, "Now is not the time for placing blame"
...
....are quite often to blame....
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 09:50:34 AM |
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On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:34:13 -0700, Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 01:33:27 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
It is not possible for the universe to be infinite.
A definitive, positive assertion, and nothing more. IOW, you really
_are_ just a troll disinterested in any actual conversation. Thanks
for making that clear. ;-)
If, of course the word 'universe' is taken to mean nothing more than
what we see a small part of above us at night - the totality of all
the galaxies, stars, planets and spaces in between - then the universe
may well be finite.
I however tend towards the dictionary meaning of the word in that
the universe is the totality of all there is, in short everything. If
you argue this does not in fact mean infinity then your problem is
in describing the boundary of this universe and what is beyond it.
Since the word universe means 'everything' then nothing can be
outside it.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 06:29:07 PM |
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Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:34:13 -0700, Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 01:33:27 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
It is not possible for the universe to be infinite.
A definitive, positive assertion, and nothing more. IOW, you really
_are_ just a troll disinterested in any actual conversation. Thanks
for making that clear. ;-)
If, of course the word 'universe' is taken to mean nothing more than
what we see a small part of above us at night - the totality of all
the galaxies, stars, planets and spaces in between - then the universe
may well be finite.
I however tend towards the dictionary meaning of the word in that
the universe is the totality of all there is, in short everything. If
you argue this does not in fact mean infinity then your problem is
in describing the boundary of this universe and what is beyond it.
Since the word universe means 'everything' then nothing can be
outside it.
It seems that people have a problem combining the simple picture that the absolute
nothingness that exists outside of the universe has no boundaries and is infinite with
the MUST BE situation that the universe, the totality of all there is, has boundaries and
is finite - because if something exists it cannot be infinite.
This finite universe had no beginning and will have no end.
To me this is the ONLY possible picture. There is no argument about it.
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
07 Sep 2005 07:19:39 PM |
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"me" <here@now.com> said:
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:34:13 -0700, Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 01:33:27 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
"Richo" <m.richardson@utas.edu.au> wrote:
me wrote:
Be careful about this one:
The correct answer is "No"
Aparently we live in a finite universe.
It is *possible* that we live in an infinite universe - but the
evidence is predominately that it is finite.
One possibility is that our finite universe is itself part of an
infinite Cosmos. Whether this is science or metaphysics is the subject
of debate.
It is not possible for the universe to be infinite.
A definitive, positive assertion, and nothing more. IOW, you really
_are_ just a troll disinterested in any actual conversation. Thanks
for making that clear. ;-)
If, of course the word 'universe' is taken to mean nothing more than
what we see a small part of above us at night - the totality of all
the galaxies, stars, planets and spaces in between - then the universe
may well be finite.
I however tend towards the dictionary meaning of the word in that
the universe is the totality of all there is, in short everything. If
you argue this does not in fact mean infinity then your problem is
in describing the boundary of this universe and what is beyond it.
Since the word universe means 'everything' then nothing can be
outside it.
It seems that people have a problem combining the simple picture that the absolute
nothingness that exists outside of the universe has no boundaries and is infinite...
That is correct. The problem with absolute nothingness (which I'd
rather call complete nothingness, or just nothingness) is this: it is
that to which no properties can be ascribed, even the (meta?)property
of being that to which no properties can be ascribed. But residing
among the people who have difficulty with this is, I suggest, you,
because you ascribe the property of its being "outside the universe."
It might be better to call it "that which is other to the universe",
not "outside the universe". The problem as I see it is that assigning
a word to this nothingness (the word being a noun) deludes us into
treating the word as referring to an existent thing that is referenced
by a noun and has properties. Nothingness has no properties.
... with
the MUST BE situation that the universe, the totality of all there is, has boundaries and
is finite - because if something exists it cannot be infinite.
Does this mean that it cannot have any property in infinite amount?
I'd tend to agree, and this seems to be a way to differentiate the
concrete from the abstract.
This finite universe had no beginning and will have no end.
Would or would that not that mean that its duration is infinite
(unlimited) in extent? This means that at any time T, it will did
exist, at time T + dt and at time T - dt, where dt is a finite
non-zero quantity of time.
To me this is the ONLY possible picture. There is no argument about it.
Well, there can be clarification, right? For example, if the universe
that exists ceases to exist, would that new state of affairs still be
the universe? To say "yes" seems to ascribe existence to that which is
nonexistent, but it does keep alive your statement that the universe
will have no end. IOW if "all that exists" is nothing (nothingness,
absolute nothingness, complete nothingness, take your pick), is that a
universe?
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
08 Sep 2005 04:51:17 AM |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:29:07 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
<snip>
It seems that people have a problem combining the simple picture that the absolute
nothingness that exists outside of the universe has no boundaries and is infinite with
the MUST BE situation that the universe, the totality of all there is, has boundaries and
is finite - because if something exists it cannot be infinite.
If you're going to ascribe properties to that "nothingness", it is no
longer a "nothingness". The kind of "nothingness" referred to by
"whatever's outside of the universe" cannot possess any properties
whatsoever, not even the property of existence. So if you're
describing what you seem to be describing - an infinite but navigable
vacuum of sorts - then it's not outside of the universe, but part _of_
the universe.
This finite universe had no beginning and will have no end.
To me this is the ONLY possible picture. There is no argument about it.
So why did you bother to bring it up?
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
Those first to step up and say,
"Now is not the time for placing blame"
...
...are quite often to blame....
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
08 Sep 2005 12:58:47 PM |
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Nobody knows.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
10 Sep 2005 05:25:36 AM |
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Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody knows.
I do - the universe must be finite. Something that exists cannot be composed of an
infinite number of parts and cannot have infinite dimensions.
Infinity "exists" only when one is considering "absolute nothingness" - which "goes on
forever", and time - which, as there can be no beginning and no end to the universe,
must "go on forever", being subdivided into periods of the time it takes for the universe
to perform one cycle of rearrangements of itself. The activities of the universe being
identical for each of these periods of time. The recent discovery ("recent" to the last
100 years or so) of how the universe is composed of extremely small components points
to the incontestable fact that the age of the universe (the period of one cycle) must be
very much greater than the 14-15 billion years the public is being fed with. If the
smallest "thing" in the universe corresponds to a billion years then the age of the
universe is at least the sum total of all its components - and probably is very much
longer, by a factor of many billions.
All the above derives from simply accepting that infinity is impossible in a material sense.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
15 Sep 2005 12:11:16 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 05:25:36 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody knows.
I do - the universe must be finite. Something that exists cannot be composed of an
infinite number of parts and cannot have infinite dimensions.
Infinity "exists" only when one is considering "absolute nothingness" - which "goes on
forever", and time - which, as there can be no beginning and no end to the universe,
must "go on forever", being subdivided into periods of the time it takes for the universe
to perform one cycle of rearrangements of itself. The activities of the universe being
identical for each of these periods of time. The recent discovery ("recent" to the last
100 years or so) of how the universe is composed of extremely small components points
to the incontestable fact that the age of the universe (the period of one cycle) must be
very much greater than the 14-15 billion years the public is being fed with. If the
smallest "thing" in the universe corresponds to a billion years then the age of the
universe is at least the sum total of all its components - and probably is very much
longer, by a factor of many billions.
All the above derives from simply accepting that infinity is impossible in a material sense.
The answer would seem to lie outside our knowledge.
Neither a finite nor an infinite universe makes sense.
If the universe is finite what is at the end, and what is beyond?
Barry
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Is the Universe Infinite? |
15 Sep 2005 12:28:46 PM |
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On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:11:16 +1000 in alt.atheism, Barry OGrady
(Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 05:25:36 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Barry OGrady <atheist.xxx@gmail.com> wrote:
Nobody knows.
I do - the universe must be finite. Something that exists cannot be composed of an
infinite number of parts and cannot have infinite dimensions.
Infinity "exists" only when one is considering "absolute nothingness" - which "goes on
forever", and time - which, as there can be no beginning and no end to the universe,
must "go on forever", being subdivided into periods of the time it takes for the universe
to perform one cycle of rearrangements of itself. The activities of the universe being
identical for each of these periods of time. The recent discovery ("recent" to the last
100 years or so) of how the universe is composed of extremely small components points
to the incontestable fact that the age of the universe (the period of one cycle) must be
very much greater than the 14-15 billion years the public is being fed with. If the
smallest "thing" in the universe corresponds to a billion years then the age of the
universe is at least the sum total of all its components - and probably is very much
longer, by a factor of many billions.
All the above derives from simply accepting that infinity is impossible in a material sense.
The answer would seem to lie outside our knowledge.
Neither a finite nor an infinite universe makes sense.
If the universe is finite what is at the end, and what is beyond?
In so far as I understand it, which isn't well, geometry.
But I thought that the universe has been known not to be infinite in
time and space through Obler.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec96/844241598.Ph.r.html
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
#442. Want food NOW? Then try http://www.rtios.co.uk/
- Yep, currently under test... Your opinion welcome.
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
07 Sep 2005 09:45:34 PM |
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Why did God create atheists?
I think that His reasoning was something like: If everyone believes in me then
whenever problems arise they'll expect me to solve them. If I create atheists they'll face
up to the problems and try to solve them, and, as a consequence of their endeavours,
those who believe in me will benefit.
So - as an atheist, I feel especially proud that God created me in order to keep His
system running.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
07 Sep 2005 10:29:30 PM |
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"me" <here@now.com> said:
Why did God create atheists?
A prior question: Did that happen?
--- Jim07D5
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 11:08:01 PM |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:45:34 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Why did God create atheists?
He didn't. God created us all the same. Some of us say yes. Some of you say
no.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
07 Sep 2005 10:23:32 PM |
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On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:45:34 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Why did God create atheists?
He didn't.
I think that His reasoning was something like: If everyone believes in me then
whenever problems arise they'll expect me to solve them. If I create atheists they'll face
up to the problems and try to solve them, and, as a consequence of their endeavours,
those who believe in me will benefit.
Actually, it was a matter of follow my directive to love one another and live
with me for all eternity. Reject my way and live with satan for all eternity.
So - as an atheist, I feel especially proud that God created me in order to keep His
system running.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "me" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 01:57:04 AM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:45:34 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Why did God create atheists?
He didn't.
I think that His reasoning was something like: If everyone believes in me then
whenever problems arise they'll expect me to solve them. If I create atheists they'll face
up to the problems and try to solve them, and, as a consequence of their endeavours,
those who believe in me will benefit.
Actually, it was a matter of follow my directive to love one another and live
with me for all eternity. Reject my way and live with satan for all eternity.
People who believe in the existence of Satan are Satanic. One can believe in God or
not believe in God - and all is well.
Satan is that which "takes over your face" when people don't agree with you when
you make pronouncements about the nature of God. Satan is very subtle. Don't believe
in hm and he will not exist.
Satan is that which will make you want to insult me rather than think about what I have
written. You can believe in God or not believe in God. Believing in Satan brings him into
existence in your life.
Satan's favourite word is "*****".
So - as an atheist, I feel especially proud that God created me in order to keep His
system running.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 11:09:18 PM |
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On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 01:57:04 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Actually, it was a matter of follow my directive to love one another and live
with me for all eternity. Reject my way and live with satan for all eternity.
People who believe in the existence of Satan are Satanic. One can believe in God or
not believe in God - and all is well.
Highly unlikely when you die.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "WCB" |
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| Title: Re: What is God's purpose in creating people who don't believe he exists? |
08 Sep 2005 06:21:28 PM |
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me wrote:
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:45:34 +0000, "me" <here@now.com> wrote:
Why did God create atheists?
He didn't.
I think that His reasoning was something like: If everyone believes in me
then whenever problems arise they'll expect me to solve them. If I create
atheists they'll face up to the problems and try to solve them, and, as a
consequence of their endeavours, those who believe in me will benefit.
Actually, it was a matter of follow my directive to love one another and
live
with me for all eternity. Reject my way and live with satan for all
eternity.
People who believe in the existence of Satan are Satanic. One can believe
in God or not believe in God - and all is well.
Ain't no satan, ain't no god.
Romans 11 has Paul telling us God created people
who do not believe in Jesus.
--
Xenu is around and about,
mention Hubbard, Xenu pops out!
No way for the clams to stamp Xenu out,
Xenu is around and about!
Cheerful Charlie
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