| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"darwinist" |
| Date: |
20 Oct 2006 01:19:12 AM |
| Object: |
Is there anything more important than comfort? |
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "gibbs" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 07:29:04 AM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Emotional satisfaction. We want to be comfortable as part of our
never-ending drive towards emotional satisfaction.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 05:45:21 PM |
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gibbs wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Emotional satisfaction. We want to be comfortable as part of our
never-ending drive towards emotional satisfaction.
To seek satisfaction is to perceive that dissatisfaction exist.
.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 05:45:32 PM |
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gibbs wrote:
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Emotional satisfaction. We want to be comfortable as part of our
never-ending drive towards emotional satisfaction.
To seek satisfaction is to perceive that dissatisfaction exists.
.
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| User: "Roger Johansson" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 05:44:27 AM |
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Is there anything more important than comfort?
Well, honesty, freedom to relax and speak your mind, following the laws
of a modern society, not hurting others, to not be a socially scary
character others have to be afraid of, to not support a violent man
with your love, to help the weak and opressed, to use only your fair
share of the world's resources, to not support a regime which is
opressing people and start unnecessary wars, ...
I could go on, but that might be good enough for a start.
--
Roger J.
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 09:40:04 PM |
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Roger Johansson wrote:
Is there anything more important than comfort?
Well, honesty,
What if, for example, telling the truth would get someone killed who
you believe did nothing wrong, say they were an atheist in a
totalitarian religious society. I personally would feel more
comfortable lying about that person and saying that they believed as
everyone else does, especially if they would never find out I was
lying.
freedom to relax and speak your mind, following the laws
of a modern society,
not hurting others,
If you are being attacked and can defend yourself, is "not hurting
others" more important than comfort?
to not be a socially scary
character others have to be afraid of, to not support a violent man
with your love, to help the weak and opressed,
What if in helping the weak and oppressed you end up sacrificing
everything that you and your family need, that would be uncomfortable,
and not a sustainable way to help anybody.
to use only your fair
share of the world's resources, to not support a regime which is
opressing people and start unnecessary wars, ...
I could go on, but that might be good enough for a start.
I agree a lot of things can be more important than immediate, short
term comfort, but aren't those things above, all designed to produce a
comfortable social and political environment in which the chances of
the general population living in comfort are increased?
--
Roger J.
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| User: "AE" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
21 Oct 2006 11:19:00 AM |
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I've looked up the expression "comfort" and found a plenty of different
meanings. To me it seems living in comfort means living an easy way.
Given this considerations I'd say there are good reasons not to make
comfort the highest good:
My goal is to maximize pleasure and to minimize pain, and I'm quite
well willing to accept pain (discomfort) to earn even more pleasure.
An example is to work hard to reach a goal.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
21 Oct 2006 11:53:13 AM |
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AE wrote:
I've looked up the expression "comfort" and found a plenty of different
meanings. To me it seems living in comfort means living an easy way.
Given this considerations I'd say there are good reasons not to make
comfort the highest good:
My goal is to maximize pleasure and to minimize pain, and I'm quite
well willing to accept pain (discomfort) to earn even more pleasure.
An example is to work hard to reach a goal.
However, if I can work at half the speed and twice the efficiency and
accomplish the same goal, your hard work is not an avoidance of
discomfort.
Culturally and religiously, there is also a belief that we must suffer
in order to have our goals. I'm not of that thinking.
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| User: "L Justice" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 07:27:36 AM |
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I've reasoned out that there are two types of comfort.
I'll give examples to hopefully make myself clear.
There is comfort that we get as a result of fulfilling needs wether
psychological or basic. But it is only a by-product, not something to seek
in and of itself (comfort, I mean).
Then there is comfort, for the sake of comfort. That may be, watching
television, listening to music, having a coffee, smoking a cigarette.
It is preferable to seek seccurity than it is comfort in and of itself
because through security we will necessarily feel comfort but in feeling
comfort we may not feel true lasting security.
"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 04:46:33 AM |
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On 19 Oct 2006 23:19:12 -0700, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
When do you seek discomfort?
Never been bungy jumping, ridden a roller coaster, or got drunk?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
22 Oct 2006 08:47:32 PM |
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Michael Gray wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 23:19:12 -0700, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
When do you seek discomfort?
Never been bungy jumping, ridden a roller coaster, or got drunk?
Oh it wasn't a rhetorical question, (and yes except for bungy jumping).
I was just wondering the reasons or circumstances under which someone
seeks discomfort. Is it always for some other reason, or is discomfort
ever a reason in itself?
One might say, for example that boredom is uncomfortable. Incidentally,
I don't think drinking fits with the other examples, because unless you
take it too far, it's bottled comfort (albeit temporary and with
side-effects).
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "FishFood" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 11:25:49 AM |
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darwinist wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 23:19:12 -0700, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
When do you seek discomfort?
Never been bungy jumping, ridden a roller coaster, or got drunk?
Oh it wasn't a rhetorical question, (and yes except for bungy jumping).
I was just wondering the reasons or circumstances under which someone
seeks discomfort. Is it always for some other reason, or is discomfort
ever a reason in itself?
I suppose it depends on what you recognize as discomfort.
I would say there are degrees of discomfort, from the frustration
of learning a new task, to the anxiety of not knowing what comes
next. In this regard, the pursuit of knowledge, could be likened
to the seeking discomfort.
One might say, for example that boredom is uncomfortable. Incidentally,
I don't think drinking fits with the other examples, because unless you
take it too far, it's bottled comfort (albeit temporary and with
side-effects).
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 07:51:39 PM |
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FishFood wrote:
darwinist wrote:
Michael Gray wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 23:19:12 -0700, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1161325152.478027.102130@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
When do you seek discomfort?
Never been bungy jumping, ridden a roller coaster, or got drunk?
Oh it wasn't a rhetorical question, (and yes except for bungy jumping).
I was just wondering the reasons or circumstances under which someone
seeks discomfort. Is it always for some other reason, or is discomfort
ever a reason in itself?
I suppose it depends on what you recognize as discomfort.
I would say there are degrees of discomfort, from the frustration
of learning a new task, to the anxiety of not knowing what comes
next. In this regard, the pursuit of knowledge, could be likened
to the seeking discomfort.
The anxiety of not knowing what comes next is not living the here and
now. For one to experience the here and how, they need to be free of
the then and there.
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| User: "Sir Frederick" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 01:51:59 AM |
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On 19 Oct 2006 23:19:12 -0700, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote:
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Probably not, though comfort is a shifting goal.
When I had kidney stones, I learned that pain
is god. The pain was what held my attention.
When the pain decreased, I slept to find the energy
to face the pain again. Comfort was simply not
available.
Today I bare surgery scars and memories. Not the
same as pain. I think I do have some Post Traumatic
Stress Syndrome as I cannot handle any stress at all.
That includes the stress of just being around people.
Or the stress of reading a dramatic book.
For some, comfort may not be available.
I never seek discomfort. My drug of choice is caffeine,
because it's legal. The others are not.
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 02:19:17 AM |
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Sir Frederick wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 23:19:12 -0700, "darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote:
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Probably not, though comfort is a shifting goal.
When I had kidney stones, I learned that pain
is god. The pain was what held my attention.
When the pain decreased, I slept to find the energy
to face the pain again. Comfort was simply not
available.
Today I bare surgery scars and memories. Not the
same as pain. I think I do have some Post Traumatic
Stress Syndrome as I cannot handle any stress at all.
That includes the stress of just being around people.
Or the stress of reading a dramatic book.
I'm sorry to hear that, but I also hear it can be treated.
For some, comfort may not be available.
I never seek discomfort. My drug of choice is caffeine,
because it's legal. The others are not.
Interesting. I've change my opinion many times about the payoffs of
recreational drugs over the years, been abstinent from all of them for
extended periods, even the legal ones, tried a variety of them, and had
different habits at different times. This is all to say I'm not
attacking your recreational drug use when I question it:
What do you think about the addiction forming qualities of caffeine, on
the one hand, which can turn the pleasure down and the need up, and on
the other hand, what about the theory that you can better learn to get
the benefits - such as clear thinking, general good feeling and
confidence - if you practice and experiment at getting such things,
without the drug in your system?
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 11:31:40 AM |
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darwinist wrote:
Is there anything more important than comfort?
I believe that the "avoidence of dis-comfort" to be more important to
us than the persuit of comfort, since most changes we make to our
thoughts and ideas come from this avoidence. This is probably the core
reasoning power of humans and animals.
Cognitive Dissonance Theory
"Inconsistency among related beliefs . . .produces motivation to do
whatever is easiest in order to regain cognitive consistency or
consonance among beliefs." --Jones and Gerard
During the late 1950's Leon Festinger developed the cognitive
dissonance theory to explain attitude formation and change. According
to the theory, there is a tendency to seek consistency among their
cognitions (i.e., ideas, beliefs, opinions).
Cognitive dissonance is the state
of tension one feels after making
a decision, taking an action, or
being exposed to some information
that is (contrary) to a prior attitude
-(Zimbardo et al., 1999, p. 752).
The state of tension is
psychologically unpleasant,
so something must change to
reduce the dissonance --
usually the prior attitude.
For example, a person may believe smoking is bad for her health, but
when she starts smoking she finds herself with inconsistent cognitions
("Smoking is unhealthy" and "I smoke") creating an unpleasant state of
dissonance, so she changes her prior attitude ("Smoking is not really
as bad for you as they make it seem"). Festinger also theorized that,
if a person could sufficiently attribute their behavior to an external
influence, his dissonance would be lower and thus there would be a
lesser attitude change. For a great example of this, see Supporting
Studies.
Cognitive dissonance explains well the process of effort justification.
If a person puts for a great deal of effort (i.e., energy, time,
money), he wants to feel like it was worth it. For example, if someone
pays a high price for a new car and finds the car uncomfortable, he may
experience dissonance and so to reduce it, he alters his attitude about
the car to be more positive. One well-known study that supported this,
showed that if someone puts forth a lot of effort to get into a group,
the dissonance of potentially working hard for nothing causes them to
reduce that dissonance by liking the group more (Aronson, 1969).
Cognitive dissonance is by no means a full-proof theory for predicting
attitude change. People do not always change their attitudes when there
is dissonance. For one thing, people differ in how much inconsistency
they can tolerate. Another thing is that two cognitions that seem
inconsistent to one person may not be to another. Still, despite some
mixed results, many studies have supported the idea that dissonance
does underlie many of our attitude shifts.
http://www.sfb504.uni-mannheim.de/glossary/cogdis.htm
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/mawhatley/9710/cogdiss.htm
http://www.apa.org/books/4318830s.html
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "TruthSlave" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 07:40:25 PM |
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Immortalist wrote:
darwinist wrote:
Is there anything more important than comfort?
I believe that the "avoidence of dis-comfort" to be more important to
us than the persuit of comfort, since most changes we make to our
thoughts and ideas come from this avoidence. This is probably the core
reasoning power of humans and animals.
Cognitive Dissonance Theory
"Inconsistency among related beliefs . . .produces motivation to do
whatever is easiest in order to regain cognitive consistency or
consonance among beliefs." --Jones and Gerard
During the late 1950's Leon Festinger developed the cognitive
dissonance theory to explain attitude formation and change. According
to the theory, there is a tendency to seek consistency among their
cognitions (i.e., ideas, beliefs, opinions).
Cognitive dissonance is the state
of tension one feels after making
a decision, taking an action, or
being exposed to some information
that is (contrary) to a prior attitude
-(Zimbardo et al., 1999, p. 752).
The state of tension is
psychologically unpleasant,
so something must change to
reduce the dissonance --
usually the prior attitude.
For example, a person may believe smoking is bad for her health, but
when she starts smoking she finds herself with inconsistent cognitions
("Smoking is unhealthy" and "I smoke") creating an unpleasant state of
dissonance, so she changes her prior attitude ("Smoking is not really
as bad for you as they make it seem"). Festinger also theorized that,
if a person could sufficiently attribute their behavior to an external
influence, his dissonance would be lower and thus there would be a
lesser attitude change. For a great example of this, see Supporting
Studies.
Cognitive dissonance explains well the process of effort justification.
If a person puts for a great deal of effort (i.e., energy, time,
money), he wants to feel like it was worth it. For example, if someone
pays a high price for a new car and finds the car uncomfortable, he may
experience dissonance and so to reduce it, he alters his attitude about
the car to be more positive. One well-known study that supported this,
showed that if someone puts forth a lot of effort to get into a group,
the dissonance of potentially working hard for nothing causes them to
reduce that dissonance by liking the group more (Aronson, 1969).
Cognitive dissonance is by no means a full-proof theory for predicting
attitude change. People do not always change their attitudes when there
is dissonance. For one thing, people differ in how much inconsistency
they can tolerate. Another thing is that two cognitions that seem
inconsistent to one person may not be to another. Still, despite some
mixed results, many studies have supported the idea that dissonance
does underlie many of our attitude shifts.
http://www.sfb504.uni-mannheim.de/glossary/cogdis.htm
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/mawhatley/9710/cogdiss.htm
http://www.apa.org/books/4318830s.html
Great post Immortalist!
Too many will hear the words 'cognitive dissonance' and think of it
as symptom, as you've shown its also a key mechanism of persuasion.
There's something here in the circumstance which are contrived to
change men's minds.
In another time the culture bore headlines hinting at the subversive
potential in this area of science. In this age there is no such hint.
Maybe its too soon, or maybe the great majority to be without this
knowledge.
Here's a couple of other links to add further context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
"Put simply, the experimenters concluded that human beings,
when asked to lie without being given sufficient justification,
will convince themselves that the lie they are asked to tell is
the truth."
This of course goes beyond merely accepting a lie as truth. You might
call it adaption to conflicting information and situations, the
ramifications in the absence of knowledge beggars belief. All we see
is the individual's actions, rarely the circumstance which forces
their hand.
As absurd as it may sound, i can just imagine[?] a lot of this
'theory' passing into the culture disguised as benign tools,
scripts divorced from any acknowledgment of their true intent.
A means to justify the end.
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "Immortalist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
22 Oct 2006 02:10:32 PM |
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TruthSlave wrote:
Immortalist wrote:
darwinist wrote:
Is there anything more important than comfort?
I believe that the "avoidence of dis-comfort" to be more important to
us than the persuit of comfort, since most changes we make to our
thoughts and ideas come from this avoidence. This is probably the core
reasoning power of humans and animals.
Cognitive Dissonance Theory
"Inconsistency among related beliefs . . .produces motivation to do
whatever is easiest in order to regain cognitive consistency or
consonance among beliefs." --Jones and Gerard
During the late 1950's Leon Festinger developed the cognitive
dissonance theory to explain attitude formation and change. According
to the theory, there is a tendency to seek consistency among their
cognitions (i.e., ideas, beliefs, opinions).
Cognitive dissonance is the state
of tension one feels after making
a decision, taking an action, or
being exposed to some information
that is (contrary) to a prior attitude
-(Zimbardo et al., 1999, p. 752).
The state of tension is
psychologically unpleasant,
so something must change to
reduce the dissonance --
usually the prior attitude.
For example, a person may believe smoking is bad for her health, but
when she starts smoking she finds herself with inconsistent cognitions
("Smoking is unhealthy" and "I smoke") creating an unpleasant state of
dissonance, so she changes her prior attitude ("Smoking is not really
as bad for you as they make it seem"). Festinger also theorized that,
if a person could sufficiently attribute their behavior to an external
influence, his dissonance would be lower and thus there would be a
lesser attitude change. For a great example of this, see Supporting
Studies.
Cognitive dissonance explains well the process of effort justification.
If a person puts for a great deal of effort (i.e., energy, time,
money), he wants to feel like it was worth it. For example, if someone
pays a high price for a new car and finds the car uncomfortable, he may
experience dissonance and so to reduce it, he alters his attitude about
the car to be more positive. One well-known study that supported this,
showed that if someone puts forth a lot of effort to get into a group,
the dissonance of potentially working hard for nothing causes them to
reduce that dissonance by liking the group more (Aronson, 1969).
Cognitive dissonance is by no means a full-proof theory for predicting
attitude change. People do not always change their attitudes when there
is dissonance. For one thing, people differ in how much inconsistency
they can tolerate. Another thing is that two cognitions that seem
inconsistent to one person may not be to another. Still, despite some
mixed results, many studies have supported the idea that dissonance
does underlie many of our attitude shifts.
http://www.sfb504.uni-mannheim.de/glossary/cogdis.htm
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/mawhatley/9710/cogdiss.htm
http://www.apa.org/books/4318830s.html
Great post Immortalist!
Too many will hear the words 'cognitive dissonance' and think of it
as symptom, as you've shown its also a key mechanism of persuasion.
There's something here in the circumstance which are contrived to
change men's minds.
Comfort is probably the reduction of conceptual friction?
In another time the culture bore headlines hinting at the subversive
potential in this area of science. In this age there is no such hint.
Maybe its too soon, or maybe the great majority to be without this
knowledge.
Here's a couple of other links to add further context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mkultra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
"Put simply, the experimenters concluded that human beings,
when asked to lie without being given sufficient justification,
will convince themselves that the lie they are asked to tell is
the truth."
This of course goes beyond merely accepting a lie as truth. You might
call it adaption to conflicting information and situations, the
ramifications in the absence of knowledge beggars belief. All we see
is the individual's actions, rarely the circumstance which forces
their hand.
As absurd as it may sound, i can just imagine[?] a lot of this
'theory' passing into the culture disguised as benign tools,
scripts divorced from any acknowledgment of their true intent.
Conditioning - An Experiment: You may be getting annoyed at how Skinner
could deny something that is so obvious to you-that you are free and
in control of your actions. But before you make up your mind, try this
experiment in conditioning. Your teacher is your subject.
According to Skinner's theory, our behavior is determined by what is in
our environment and whether that makes us feel pleasure. Our behavior
is further shaped by the consequences that follow our actions. If we
perform an action and then something we like happens (positive
reinforcement), we will repeat what we've done. If we perform an action
and then something we do not like happens (negative reinforcement), we
won't repeat what we've done.
To see how this works, you might try to condition one of your
instructors to act in a certain way, without him or her knowing it.
Here's what you do. First, explain what you're doing to as many people
in the class as you can. Second, pick the behavior that you want to
reinforce-walking back and forth, standing in a particular spot,
gesturing to the class with a piece of chalk, or whatever. The object
of the game is to administer positive reinforcement every time your
instructor performs the behavior you have chosen. Look interested, nod
your head, ask questions, take notes. When he or she stops the
behavior, go to negative reinforcement. Look bored, act confused,
shuffle your feet, look at your watch, stare out the window. When your
teacher goes back to the chosen behavior, respond positively again.
After a while, you should find your teacher doing the behavior you
selected most of the time. (One class took "being near the radiator" as
the behavior they wanted to reinforce. By the end of the semester,
their instructor was so well conditioned that he simply sat on the
radiator throughout each class.)
If you do this right, and have not been too obvious about it, you will
see that you have controlled someone's behavior without that person's
knowledge. You will have conditioned your instructor to act in a
certain way because she or he wants the positive feeling that comes
with the interest you show.
Discovering philosophy / Thomas I. White. --Brief ed.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0135080037/
The teach chose a comfortable place right?
A means to justify the end.
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
25 Oct 2006 01:44:04 AM |
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Immortalist wrote:
darwinist wrote:
Is there anything more important than comfort?
I believe that the "avoidence of dis-comfort" to be more important to
us than the persuit of comfort, since most changes we make to our
thoughts and ideas come from this avoidence. This is probably the core
reasoning power of humans and animals.
That's a good point. Comfort and discomfort might be considered ends
(or halves) of the same spectrum, and this process of seeking and
avoiding abstract emotional states is what the human game is all about,
imo.
Cognitive Dissonance Theory
"Inconsistency among related beliefs . . .produces motivation to do
whatever is easiest in order to regain cognitive consistency or
consonance among beliefs." --Jones and Gerard
During the late 1950's Leon Festinger developed the cognitive
dissonance theory to explain attitude formation and change. According
to the theory, there is a tendency to seek consistency among their
cognitions (i.e., ideas, beliefs, opinions).
Makes sense. There are perhaps reasons, however, that people will
maintain an inconsistency, albeit in denial. Protecting an emotionally
valued and long-standing belief springs to mind. I'm sure I'm biased,
but from my point of view I see this in anyone with a strong "ism" or
"ology", such as christians and objectivists, they will make up all
kinds of crazy explanations for what are apparent, even glaring
contradictions to outsiders.
As a darwinist, perhaps I have some of these elephants in my own living
room, but of course I can't see them.
Cognitive dissonance is the state
of tension one feels after making
a decision, taking an action, or
being exposed to some information
that is (contrary) to a prior attitude
-(Zimbardo et al., 1999, p. 752).
The state of tension is
psychologically unpleasant,
so something must change to
reduce the dissonance --
usually the prior attitude.
For example, a person may believe smoking is bad for her health, but
when she starts smoking she finds herself with inconsistent cognitions
("Smoking is unhealthy" and "I smoke") creating an unpleasant state of
dissonance, so she changes her prior attitude ("Smoking is not really
as bad for you as they make it seem"). Festinger also theorized that,
if a person could sufficiently attribute their behavior to an external
influence, his dissonance would be lower and thus there would be a
lesser attitude change. For a great example of this, see Supporting
Studies.
Cognitive dissonance explains well the process of effort justification.
If a person puts for a great deal of effort (i.e., energy, time,
money), he wants to feel like it was worth it. For example, if someone
pays a high price for a new car and finds the car uncomfortable, he may
experience dissonance and so to reduce it, he alters his attitude about
the car to be more positive. One well-known study that supported this,
showed that if someone puts forth a lot of effort to get into a group,
the dissonance of potentially working hard for nothing causes them to
reduce that dissonance by liking the group more (Aronson, 1969).
I agree, people will often justify their position rather than change
the actual flaws they have detected. A more charitable interpretation
might be that once a commitment is made (say, to a group), it's more
useful to focus on the good things and get the most out of them,
because nothing is perfect, and the more work you've put to getting
somewhere, the more committed you likely are to it anyway.
Cognitive dissonance is by no means a full-proof theory for predicting
attitude change. People do not always change their attitudes when there
is dissonance. For one thing, people differ in how much inconsistency
they can tolerate. Another thing is that two cognitions that seem
inconsistent to one person may not be to another. Still, despite some
mixed results, many studies have supported the idea that dissonance
does underlie many of our attitude shifts.
Maybe it's one program of many that's running in our brain to make a
usable model of the world.
http://www.sfb504.uni-mannheim.de/glossary/cogdis.htm
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/mawhatley/9710/cogdiss.htm
http://www.apa.org/books/4318830s.html
When do you seek discomfort?
Is it only for the purpose of greater, broader or future comfort?
What is your philosophy regarding this state or sensation?
How can we get immediate comfort without too much endangering its
future?
Please opine and rant, even if only a little.
Here is my belief in brief:
There is nothing more important. Everything we have evolved to pursue,
(eg food, sex, security, understanding), gives us comfort. Conflicts
between our plans or values, are uncomfortable.
Comfort is the points awarded in the evolved information-game of
human-self-awareness. It encourages our mind, for doing a good job, or
being in a good place. We get it from memories, expectations,
sensations and experiences, anything our mind can perceive. The role of
education and philosophy is to learn to secure comfort sustainably.
From the king of capturing clever ideas:
"A man will do anything, no matter what it is, to secure his spiritual
comfort; and he can neither be forced nor persuaded to any act which
has not that goal for its object." - Mark Twain, 'What is Man'
.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
25 Oct 2006 08:06:01 PM |
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darwinist wrote:
Immortalist wrote:
darwinist wrote:
Is there anything more important than comfort?
I believe that the "avoidence of dis-comfort" to be more important to
us than the persuit of comfort, since most changes we make to our
thoughts and ideas come from this avoidence. This is probably the core
reasoning power of humans and animals.
That's a good point. Comfort and discomfort might be considered ends
(or halves) of the same spectrum, and this process of seeking and
avoiding abstract emotional states is what the human game is all about,
imo.
However, there are other strategies for living and interpreting the
world.
I will have millions of thoughts, millions of feelings and millions of
actions over my lifetime. I just don't seem to get caught up in any one
state as you suggest. If I do find something uncomfortable, I know just
to wait a moment or two and the next thought or feeling will come by.
I don't view anything life as a discomfort -- so there is no need to
seek comfort.
It sounds like a lot of planning and thinking rather than enjoying the
comfort that one does have versus the comfort they *could* have.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 06:09:25 PM |
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Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities, greater
comfort is often the result.
BOfL
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
20 Oct 2006 08:34:24 PM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities, greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
22 Oct 2006 06:17:53 PM |
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"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161394463.953550.124450@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I
see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities,
greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I'm comfortable with that :-)
BOfL
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
22 Oct 2006 07:13:04 PM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161394463.953550.124450@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I
see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities,
greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I'm comfortable with that :-)
rofl
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| User: "A Human Being" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 02:44:19 AM |
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a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities, greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort.
Perhaps not all that exists but one's own state.
These are all perceptions that can be altered.
...another way of seeking comfort ?
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
22 Oct 2006 10:12:07 PM |
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a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities, greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I disagree that this is always the case. It is not that simple. Often
comfortable people seek more comfort, or to secure the comfort they
have. Often seeking is a comfortable activity in itself.
.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 07:46:41 PM |
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"darwinist" <darwinist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161573127.537399.210780@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which
I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the
more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities,
greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I disagree that this is always the case. It is not that simple. Often
comfortable people seek more comfort, or to secure the comfort they
have. Often seeking is a comfortable activity in itself.
BEEEEautiful....
Another great example of the nature of "being" compared with "seeking".
I wonder what the donkey who is following the carrot feels, if he sees
another donkey sitting by the roadside chomping away merrily....a mirage ???
BOfL
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 07:57:26 AM |
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darwinist wrote:
a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities, greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I disagree that this is always the case. It is not that simple. Often
comfortable people seek more comfort, or to secure the comfort they
have. Often seeking is a comfortable activity in itself.
Complexity is a choice -- simplicity is a choice.
Seeking is the absence of X. Seeking is wanting. Craving is the action
related to not having or not having enough of X. Seeking is the lack of
appreciation or lack of enjoyment of what is had (comfort) in this
case. If one enjoys their current comforts (no matter how few or how
many), there is little need to focus on more comfort.
.
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| User: "Brian Fletcher" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 07:47:32 PM |
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"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161608246.759251.72300@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive
behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a
huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration
for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the
more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities,
greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I disagree that this is always the case. It is not that simple. Often
comfortable people seek more comfort, or to secure the comfort they
have. Often seeking is a comfortable activity in itself.
Complexity is a choice -- simplicity is a choice.
Seeking is the absence of X. Seeking is wanting. Craving is the action
related to not having or not having enough of X. Seeking is the lack of
appreciation or lack of enjoyment of what is had (comfort) in this
case. If one enjoys their current comforts (no matter how few or how
many), there is little need to focus on more comfort.
The simple but magnificent art of human "being"...:-)
BOfL
.
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| User: "a_friend" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 07:55:13 PM |
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Brian Fletcher wrote:
"a_friend" <a_f_r_i_e_n_d@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161608246.759251.72300@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
darwinist wrote:
a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive
behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a
huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration
for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the
more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities,
greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I disagree that this is always the case. It is not that simple. Often
comfortable people seek more comfort, or to secure the comfort they
have. Often seeking is a comfortable activity in itself.
Complexity is a choice -- simplicity is a choice.
Seeking is the absence of X. Seeking is wanting. Craving is the action
related to not having or not having enough of X. Seeking is the lack of
appreciation or lack of enjoyment of what is had (comfort) in this
case. If one enjoys their current comforts (no matter how few or how
many), there is little need to focus on more comfort.
The simple but magnificent art of human "being"...:-)
Being human, here. Being human, now.
.
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| User: "darwinist" |
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| Title: Re: Is there anything more important than comfort? |
23 Oct 2006 09:22:40 PM |
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a_friend wrote:
darwinist wrote:
a_friend wrote:
Brian Fletcher wrote:
Many forms of comfort have no 'symptoms', and we each seek symptoms.
Sometimes symptoms appear as a result of retrogressive behaviour,which I see
as being either conscious or subconcious self sabatage.
Other symptoms are as a result of progressive activity. There is a huge
difference between the pain of injury and the pain of exhilaration for
example.
Some seek comfort as a rest between activities,the more they get the more
uncomfortable it becomes. When comfort can be found in activities, greater
comfort is often the result.
Seeking comfort, however, is to make a cognitive judgment that what
exists is discomfort. These are all perceptions that can be altered.
I disagree that this is always the case. It is not that simple. Often
comfortable people seek more comfort, or to secure the comfort they
have. Often seeking is a comfortable activity in itself.
Complexity is a choice -- simplicity is a choice.
Seeking is the absence of X. Seeking is wanting. Craving is the action
related to not having or not having enough of X.
This next bit doesn't follow:
Seeking is the lack of
appreciation or lack of enjoyment of what is had (comfort) in this
case.
You can enjoy and appreciate what you have and still seek more, there
is no contradiction in doing so. You can be happy and still working
towards something, you can even be happy partly because you are working
towards something, you can be comfortable while seeking more. You can
like something and still want it to get better. Imperfection doesn't
mean unpleasant, and the possibility for improvement doesn't mean what
you have is bad or unsatisfying. You don't have to be uncomfortable to
seek more comfort.
If one enjoys their current comforts (no matter how few or how
many), there is little need to focus on more comfort.
People don't always stop just because they don't need more.
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