| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Frank" |
| Date: |
24 Nov 2005 09:31:07 PM |
| Object: |
Is Your Name Written |
Is your name written in the book of life?
--
http://roines.home.mindspring.com
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
26 Nov 2005 12:04:30 PM |
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On Thu, 24 Nov 2005 23:25:23 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 04:05:43 GMT, "Frank" <roines@mindspring.com>
wrote:
We have not received the spirit of the world
but the Spirit who is from God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us.
(1 Corinthians 2:12 NIV)
I don't care if you imagine you're buggering Jesus, or being buggered
by him when you masturbate. Just don't expect everybody to do the
same.
"Bugger;" said Wank {Frank}.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
27 Nov 2005 09:50:37 PM |
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So god excercises his fre will to let us in on his little country club
lifestyle? I thought free will was some Mega SAtan evil sent to lead
people to their doom,
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
24 Nov 2005 10:16:32 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Frank (roines@mindspring.com)
made the light shine upon us with this:
We have not received the spirit of the world
but the Spirit who is from God,
that we may understand what God has freely given us.
Yada yada yada. You spout biblical nonsense like a scratched CD. I think
I'll call you Skippy.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
----
sig under construction
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 02:00:30 AM |
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"Frank" <roines@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:wNvhf.3297$aA2.1196@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
Well, since no one lives forever, I guess no one believes in the son.
Oh well.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Twilights Dawn" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 03:18:01 AM |
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"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:efmdnZD10uqLWBvenZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@io.com...
"Frank" <roines@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:wNvhf.3297$aA2.1196@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
Well, since no one lives forever, I guess no one believes in the son.
Oh well.
God puts eternity into their hearts. Its a sad person who lives without
God. The end is even sadder. It is better the day of one's death, than the
day of ones birth. That parable is probably lost on you... one day it will
be crystal clear....
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 12:03:04 PM |
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"Twilight's Dawn" <aperio@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:dFAhf.179$kV7.79@news02.roc.ny...
"Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote in message
news:efmdnZD10uqLWBvenZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@io.com...
"Frank" <roines@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:wNvhf.3297$aA2.1196@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
Well, since no one lives forever, I guess no one believes in the son.
Oh well.
God puts eternity into their hearts.
Regardless, everyone dies. If anyone gets eternity in their hearts, it
apparently does not spread to the rest of their body.
Its a sad person who lives without
God.
I live without a god. I'm happy. Thus you are demonsterably wrong.
The end is even sadder.
Death is waste, and waste is sad. This I agree with.
It is better the day of one's death, than the
day of ones birth.
This I do not agree with. Are you actually saying its better for people to
die than be born?
What kind of a fucking monster are you?
That parable is probably lost on you...
No, it's crystal clear.
one day it will
be crystal clear....
It's crystal clear you're an inhuman monster.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
http://www.ashenempires.com
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 05:25:52 PM |
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"Frank" <roines@mindspring.com> wrote in news:wNvhf.3297$aA2.1196
@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
Religion is the disease, not the cure.
--
Doc Smartass XP - New Interface, Same Old *****
Brought to you by...
The Catholic Church. No, we don't like gays.
But if you're a pedo, you're PRIEST material!!
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
24 Nov 2005 11:09:12 PM |
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Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Whoever believe those grandiose lies is a fool.
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| User: "Twilights Dawn" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 03:16:55 AM |
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<anon1@sci.sci> wrote in message
news:3753c$43869cbb$c690c02a$4941@TSOFT.COM...
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Whoever believe those grandiose lies is a fool.
the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 11:56:45 AM |
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Whoever believe those grandiose lies is a fool.
the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
You're quoting nonsence from some ignorant source, without bothering to
think how stupid it sounds nowadays. A heart is an organ that pumps blood.
It's not possible to say something in there so long as it's alive.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 05:54:35 PM |
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What's so funny about peace, love and "Twilight's Dawn"
<aperio@frontiernet.net> posting the following on Fri, 25 Nov 2005
09:16:55 GMT iin alt.atheism?
<anon1@sci.sci> wrote in message
news:3753c$43869cbb$c690c02a$4941@TSOFT.COM...
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
Whoever believe those grandiose lies is a fool.
the fool hath said in his heart there is no God.
The wise man knows it based on observations.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
24 Nov 2005 10:21:49 PM |
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On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 03:45:32 GMT, "Frank" <roines@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
"Somniis" <lock.number@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132889822.296850.167400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Nope. Should it be?
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| User: "Twilights Dawn" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 03:15:47 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u64do11vvulsvks10mb9gokpivrk1541u3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 03:45:32 GMT, "Frank" <roines@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
"Somniis" <lock.number@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1132889822.296850.167400@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Nope. Should it be?
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| User: "Phÿltêr" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
26 Nov 2005 01:39:10 AM |
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"Twilight's Dawn" <aperio@frontiernet.net> astounded us with:
news:7DAhf.194$OO6.47@news01.roc.ny:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u64do11vvulsvks10mb9gokpivrk1541u3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 03:45:32 GMT, "Frank" <roines@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
Disclaimer: sarcasm ahead...
Ohhhh dear... And which one would be the "right" bible, pray tell, the
umpteenth round of "chinese whispers"? The one furthest removed from the
original texts? The one derived from a translation of a translation of a
translation and so on, all the while, the multitude of translators slipping
their interpretations in. That bible?
The one allegedly written by arab goat herders two millennia ago, the ones
who KNEW that thunder and lightning were caused by an angry god, THOSE "men
of wisdom"? Give me a fucking break, you cretinous simpleton.
--
Phÿltêr
Alt.Atheism #1938
Denizen of Darkness #44 & AFJC Antipodean Attaché
Remove "s" to respond
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Nomination TQotM: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 07:51:45 AM |
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On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:15:47 GMT, "Twilight's Dawn"
<aperio@frontiernet.net> in news message
<7DAhf.194$OO6.47@news01.roc.ny> wrote:
Now this is funny.
In reply to:
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
I nominate the above for the TQotM. Any seconds?
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted Ath.D BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
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| User: "Jimmy B." |
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| Title: Re: Nomination TQotM: Re: Is Your Name Written |
25 Nov 2005 01:52:59 PM |
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Liz wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:15:47 GMT, "Twilight's Dawn"
<aperio@frontiernet.net> in news message
<7DAhf.194$OO6.47@news01.roc.ny> wrote:
Now this is funny.
In reply to:
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
I nominate the above for the TQotM. Any seconds?
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted Ath.D BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
Seconded!!
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Nomination TQotM: Re: Is Your Name Written |
29 Nov 2005 04:22:42 AM |
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In article <vYJhf.5259$N45.3947@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
"Jimmy B." <jimpppe@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote:
Liz wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:15:47 GMT, "Twilight's Dawn"
<aperio@frontiernet.net> in news message
<7DAhf.194$OO6.47@news01.roc.ny> wrote:
Now this is funny.
In reply to:
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
I nominate the above for the TQotM. Any seconds?
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted Ath.D BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
Seconded!!
Recorded.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Olrik" |
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| Title: Re: Nomination TQotM: Re: Is Your Name Written |
26 Nov 2005 12:12:30 AM |
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Liz wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 09:15:47 GMT, "Twilight's Dawn"
<aperio@frontiernet.net> in news message
<7DAhf.194$OO6.47@news01.roc.ny> wrote:
Now this is funny.
In reply to:
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
I nominate the above for the TQotM. Any seconds?
Seconded.
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted Ath.D BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
--
Olrik
aa #1981
Qualified SMASH member
EAC Chief Food Inspector, Bacon Division
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
26 Nov 2005 08:55:08 PM |
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Twilight's Dawn wrote:
"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:u64do11vvulsvks10mb9gokpivrk1541u3@4ax.com...
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 03:45:32 GMT, "Frank" <roines@mindspring.com>
wrote:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
(John 3:36 NIV)
What kind of moron quotes the bible in a followup to a question he
himself asked of atheists on an atheist newsgroup?
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
If you truly want to see souls saved, how can you love the God who
judges and damns people to Hell in the first place? Seriously, think
about it. In order for someone to end up in Hell, two things must
happen: the person must not be Christian, and God must send the person
to Hell.
So, it makes sense to do your part to change the first part of the
equation: you're urging people to be Christian. But what are you doing
about the other side of the equation? If you are truly devoted to
keeping people out of Hell, shouldn't you be asking God to stop sending
people there?
I am asking you these questions, because I am sincerely trying to
understand. I'm tired of people accusing me of not looking hard enough,
or caring enough, to find God. So, I am going to keep asking these
questions, so that nobody can say I didn't care, and nobody can say I
wasn't trying.
--Billy
Isaiah 43:20 "The beasts of the field shall honor me, the dragons and
the ostriches"
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
27 Nov 2005 12:42:11 AM |
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On 26 Nov 2005 18:55:08 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
If you truly want to see souls saved, how can you love the God who
judges and damns people to Hell in the first place?
Has it ever occurred to you, that going to Hell is your
own doing? Na, couldn't be anything you did, right?
And after all, why shouldn't Heaven be just like Earth?
Yea, that's paradise!
--
Pastor Dave
Remove the "123" and "321"
from email to email me.
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| User: "L.Roberts" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
27 Nov 2005 07:01:50 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On 26 Nov 2005 18:55:08 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
If you truly want to see souls saved, how can you love the God who
judges and damns people to Hell in the first place?
Has it ever occurred to you, that going to Hell is your
own doing?
Has it ever occurred to you that some of us may be no more capable of
'believing' in any of the god stories than we are of lifting a ton over
our heads?
According to the story, God would know my heart, and know whether or
not I really, truly believed. I just don't believe. I struggled with it
for years, went over the details countless times, and always came up
with the same bottom line that - no, I just don't believe it. I am just
being honest.
The good news is, you will never ever have to answer for me. Having
personally known hundreds of so called Christians, I have never met
(nor heard of) one who IS following Christ, at least, not according to
how I read the Bible.
I know what you are all about because I used to be in the crowd you're
in with. And, if for some reason I were to come to believe that this
God character does exist, on principle, I would reject it's *****
and would not be joining your ranks. To so called Christianity I would
say:
To hell is where I am going
So get lost on your way there
If I'd have to see you eternally
T'would be a punishment I could not bear.
L.Roberts.
Na, couldn't be anything you did, right?
And after all, why shouldn't Heaven be just like Earth?
Yea, that's paradise!
--
Pastor Dave
Remove the "123" and "321"
from email to email me.
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
27 Nov 2005 06:03:50 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On 26 Nov 2005 18:55:08 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
If you truly want to see souls saved, how can you love the God who
judges and damns people to Hell in the first place?
Has it ever occurred to you, that going to Hell is your
own doing?
That would imply that going to Heaven is also one's own doing, wouldn't
it? No need for a Judge, or a Savior?
Is going to jail is a criminal's own doing? No, the criminal does
everything in his power to avoid jail. If not for policemen and judges,
the criminal would not go to jail. Come on, give credit where it's due.
Na, couldn't be anything you did, right?
According to Christianity, our sins were paid for by Christ on the
cross. So, no, people no longer go to Hell for what they did. People go
to Hell for doubting Christianity. I hear Christians say it all the
time: "being a good person can't get you into Heaven." It's got nothing
to do with our deeds, only our beliefs. And not even our moral beliefs;
our factual beliefs.
And after all, why shouldn't Heaven be just like Earth?
Yea, that's paradise!
Eh? Methinks you've got leftover issues from a conversation with
someone else.
--Billy
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
28 Nov 2005 12:56:07 PM |
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On 27 Nov 2005 16:03:50 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On 26 Nov 2005 18:55:08 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
If you truly want to see souls saved, how can you love the God who
judges and damns people to Hell in the first place?
Has it ever occurred to you, that going to Hell is your
own doing?
That would imply that going to Heaven is also one's own doing, wouldn't
it? No need for a Judge, or a Savior?
No, it wouldn't. None of us are capable of that. It
would require perfection. None of us qualify. :)
Is going to jail is a criminal's own doing? No, the criminal does
everything in his power to avoid jail. If not for policemen and judges,
the criminal would not go to jail. Come on, give credit where it's due.
That's ridiculous. Had the criminal not committed
the crime, the criminal would not be in jail, period.
This is simply blaming someone else for our own
actions.
It does bring up a parallel. Humans blame God because
they did things that bar them from Heaven.
It is also a parallel in that yes, God will carry out
justice in the end. On Earth, people demand it.
But when it comes to Heaven, they claim that
God is unjust for it.
Na, couldn't be anything you did, right?
According to Christianity, our sins were paid for by Christ on the
cross.
You have a way. It is not automatically applied.
It is not a license.
--
Pastor Dave
Remove the "123" and "321"
from email to email me.
.
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
29 Nov 2005 06:48:25 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On 27 Nov 2005 16:03:50 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On 26 Nov 2005 18:55:08 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The kind who wants to see your soul saved, though he uses the wrong Bible
version.
If you truly want to see souls saved, how can you love the God who
judges and damns people to Hell in the first place?
Has it ever occurred to you, that going to Hell is your
own doing?
That would imply that going to Heaven is also one's own doing, wouldn't
it? No need for a Judge, or a Savior?
No, it wouldn't. None of us are capable of that. It
would require perfection. None of us qualify. :)
Some would argue the same for Hell: it is a punishment so extreme, that
no mere mortal is capable of being evil enough to deserve it.
Here's the thing: if perfection is required to get into Heaven, and God
*wants* us in Heaven, why doesn't God just... perfect us? Nobody asked
to be imperfect.
Is going to jail is a criminal's own doing? No, the criminal does
everything in his power to avoid jail. If not for policemen and judges,
the criminal would not go to jail. Come on, give credit where it's due.
That's ridiculous. Had the criminal not committed
the crime, the criminal would not be in jail, period.
This is simply blaming someone else for our own
actions.
But that's just it: the punishment *isn't* the criminal's action; the
crime is. To use your phrase, the punishment "is not automatically
applied". Some criminals *don't* go to jail. And, some people go to
jail for crimes they did not commit.
It does bring up a parallel. Humans blame God because
they did things that bar them from Heaven.
It is also a parallel in that yes, God will carry out
justice in the end. On Earth, people demand it.
But when it comes to Heaven, they claim that
God is unjust for it.
A just punishment fits the crime. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a
tooth," not "ETERNAL INFINITE FLAMES OF PAIN!!! for an eye, ETERNAL
INFINITE FLAMES OF PAIN!!! for a tooth." That is not justice.
(Note: A *merciful* (as opposed to "just") punishment is a different
story. Personally, I think the whole purpose of punishment is, or at
least *should* be, reforming the criminal. There's no point wasting
energy hurting a criminal if he's never going to "learn his lesson".
Especially in the afterlife. Keeping sinners around for eternity just
to torture them? What's the point? Either reform them, or delete them
from existence. What kind of God would require that there must always
be suffering?)
Na, couldn't be anything you did, right?
According to Christianity, our sins were paid for by Christ on the
cross.
You have a way. It is not automatically applied.
It is not a license.
And yet, Christianity tells us, our sinful nature *is* automatically
applied. Nobody asks to be born with a sinful nature, yet we are. It is
forced upon us, without our consent, and against our will. And yet God
supposedly does not prevent us from sinning, because He "respects our
free will." Does that make sense to you? Not to me.
--Billy
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
29 Nov 2005 10:10:36 PM |
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On 29 Nov 2005 16:48:25 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
That would imply that going to Heaven is also one's own doing, wouldn't
it? No need for a Judge, or a Savior?
No, it wouldn't. None of us are capable of that. It
would require perfection. None of us qualify. :)
Some would argue the same for Hell: it is a punishment so extreme, that
no mere mortal is capable of being evil enough to deserve it.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Is going to jail is a criminal's own doing? No, the criminal does
everything in his power to avoid jail. If not for policemen and judges,
the criminal would not go to jail. Come on, give credit where it's due.
That's ridiculous. Had the criminal not committed
the crime, the criminal would not be in jail, period.
This is simply blaming someone else for our own
actions.
But that's just it: the punishment *isn't* the criminal's action;
You seem to be trying to shift the focus away from the
crime of the criminal and pretend that those who meted
out justice are the criminals. That isn't worth a
response.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
01 Dec 2005 01:17:04 PM |
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Please, don't try to make this a competition, and don't start
attributing sinister motives to me. I'm trying to understand the
Christian view of justice. I was raised Christian, went to weekly Mass
for half my life, and studied the Bible. I've done endless
introspection and soul-searching on the meaning of truth, love,
morality, and justice; and I simply have never been able to find those
things in the Bible's decription of God.
I don't mean that as criticism, or as an attack; I am not telling you
this to shock or offend you, even thought it probably does; it is a
factual statement about myself. I see no truth, love, morality, or
justice, in the God of the Bible. Can you momentarily forget how much
that offends you, and help me see your point of view, so that I can be
saved?
"Come, let us reason together."(Isaiah 1:18)
Pastor Dave wrote:
On 29 Nov 2005 16:48:25 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
That would imply that going to Heaven is also one's own doing, wouldn't
it? No need for a Judge, or a Savior?
No, it wouldn't. None of us are capable of that. It
would require perfection. None of us qualify. :)
Some would argue the same for Hell: it is a punishment so extreme, that
no mere mortal is capable of being evil enough to deserve it.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
....which would make sense, if the punishment fit the crime. That would
be justice. But no crime could possibly merit Hell as a just
punishment. Most Biblical "crimes" aren't even immoral. Wearing
clothing of mixed fabrics, working on the Sabbath, eating pork? If you
don't accept Jesus as your savior, those petty "crimes" result in
eternal infinite painful flames. "Vengeance is mine, says the
Lord"(Romans 12:19). So is Hell justice, or is it vengeance? Isn't
there a difference?
Is going to jail is a criminal's own doing? No, the criminal does
everything in his power to avoid jail. If not for policemen and judges,
the criminal would not go to jail. Come on, give credit where it's due.
That's ridiculous. Had the criminal not committed
the crime, the criminal would not be in jail, period.
That's simply false: innocents have been wrongfully convicted. It
happens. But that's another topic.
This is simply blaming someone else for our own
actions.
But that's just it: the punishment *isn't* the criminal's action;
You seem to be trying to shift the focus away from the
crime of the criminal and pretend that those who meted
out justice are the criminals.
How did the focus get to be on crime in the first place? I've been
trying to talk about justice. I'm just saying that the meting out of
justice, is the work of the one who metes out justice. I mean... isn't
it?
Unfortunately, I'm afraid we've simply got different ideas about what
justice is. It's interesting that you said, "On Earth, people demand
[justice]. But when it comes to Heaven, they claim that God is unjust
for it." The thing is, humans rarely demand a justice anything like
God's justice. "My ways are not your ways."(Isaiah 55:8) There was a
time when people demanded punishments that were the earthly equivalent
of Hell... such as, burning at the stake... but few people think of
that as justice anymore.
--Billy
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| User: "Ananias917" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
01 Dec 2005 05:28:41 PM |
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On 1 Dec 2005 11:17:04 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@my-deja.com> spake thusly:
Please, don't try to make this a competition, and don't start
attributing sinister motives to me. I'm trying to understand the
Christian view of justice.
I personally don't believe you. No one who is seeking
to understand tries to make the justice system out to
be at fault because criminals are in jail. It is a
very simple earthly reflective analogy and you tried to
twist it into saying that the justice system is at
fault. That doesn't reflect one who is "trying to
understand". No one is that dumb that they don't get
that analogy and no one is being honest who tries to
take the focus away from the criminal and put it on the
justice system.
The truth is, if someone murdered your family, you
wouldn't go to court and attack the judge and the
prosecute for trying him and putting him in jail.
You know it. I know it. So please don't insult the
intelligence of others by pretending that your
statements are attempts to "understand the Christian
view of justice", as if somehow, the entire justice
system changes and the criminals become the good guys,
but only when "trying to understand Christianity".
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
02 Dec 2005 06:17:45 PM |
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The truth is, if someone murdered your family, you
wouldn't go to court and attack the judge and the
prosecute for trying him and putting him in jail.
You know it. I know it.
A murderer would deserve jail. I never suggested otherwise. But
jail-for-murder is not comparable to God's version of justice. Don't
pretend it is. According to Christian doctrine, my mother's miscarried
baby is burning in Hell for all eternity, because he never heard of
Jesus. That's God's version of justice. How can you compare that to
jailing a murderer? Please help me understand this. Or are you now
going to try to pretend that this is not Christian doctrine?
Ananias917 wrote:
On 1 Dec 2005 11:17:04 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@my-deja.com> spake thusly:
Please, don't try to make this a competition, and don't start
attributing sinister motives to me. I'm trying to understand the
Christian view of justice.
I personally don't believe you. No one who is seeking
to understand tries to make the justice system out to
be at fault because criminals are in jail.
You're reading way too much into my words. I'm not complaining about
justice. I'm not saying the justice system is "at fault". I'm saying
the justice system is *responsible* for jailing people; i.e., it's
their *job*. I'm not taking a side. I'm saying the criminal does the
crime, and nothing else. The justice system metes out justice, and
nothing else. And that's as it should be. Can we at least get that out
of the way before moving on to the comparison to God?
It is a
very simple earthly reflective analogy and you tried to
twist it into saying that the justice system is at
fault. That doesn't reflect one who is "trying to
understand". No one is that dumb that they don't get
that analogy and no one is being honest who tries to
take the focus away from the criminal and put it on the
justice system.
I get the analogy. My point is, it's the *wrong* analogy. God's justice
does not work like human justice.
--Billy
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| User: "Ananias917" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
03 Dec 2005 07:27:59 AM |
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On 2 Dec 2005 16:17:45 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The truth is, if someone murdered your family, you
wouldn't go to court and attack the judge and the
prosecute for trying him and putting him in jail.
You know it. I know it.
A murderer would deserve jail. I never suggested otherwise. But
jail-for-murder is not comparable to God's version of justice.
Thoughts can be murder. And btw, you're not going to
get to spit in God's face and then demand to live in
Heaven and make it like Earth. Sorry, it doesn't work
that way.
--
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house;
and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the
Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way
as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest
receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."
- Acts 9:17
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: Is Your Name Written |
03 Dec 2005 10:13:11 PM |
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Ananias917 wrote:
On 2 Dec 2005 16:17:45 -0800, "William T. Goat"
<ericvonl@yahoo.com> spake thusly:
The truth is, if someone murdered your family, you
wouldn't go to court and attack the judge and the
prosecute for trying him and putting him in jail.
You know it. I know it.
A murderer would deserve jail. I never suggested otherwise. But
jail-for-murder is not comparable to God's version of justice.
Thoughts can be murder. And btw, you're not going to
get to spit in God's face and then demand to live in
Heaven and make it like Earth. Sorry, it doesn't work
that way.
Are you trying to put words in my mouth? Who is demanding to make
Heaven like Earth? What are you talking about?
--Billy
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