| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"The Black Monk" |
| Date: |
03 Dec 2007 10:26:35 PM |
| Object: |
Islam and Atheism |
Parallels, of course:
Hirsi Ali, atheism and Islam
By Spengler
Few public figures have done more to earn our sympathy than the Muslim
apostate Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a fugitive from her native Somalia, and now
a virtual exile from her adopted country, the Netherlands. Under
constant threat since the 2004 murder by an Islamist of her
collaborator, the Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, Hirsi Ali warns the
West that Islam presents a mortal threat to its freedoms.
America took her in last year when the Dutch government connived to
remove her refugee status, but she remains
something of an embarrassment to the George W Bush administration.
This autumn the Dutch government removed her security detail, and the
Americans have taken no steps to protect her. That is a stain on the
honor of both countries.
Although she has the credibility of a witness as well as the moral
standing of a victim, Hirsi Ali remains a bystander civilian in the
great war of our times, whose broadest front is in the global South.
That is, she proclaims herself to be an atheist. Millions of Muslims
reportedly convert to Christianity each year, mainly in Africa. Islam
is stagnant in Asia while tens of millions become Christian. Yet all
the Muslim apostates whose voices we hear are atheists - not only
Hirsi Ali, but also Salman Rushdie, the celebrated author of The
Satanic Verses, the Syrian poet Adonis, and the pseudonymous Ibn
Warraq, author of Why I am not a Muslim and several compendia of
Koranic criticism.
Why do Muslim apostates gravitate towards atheism? That is not true of
other religions. Many Jewish converts achieved prominence in 20th-
century Christianity - for example, the recently deceased Cardinal
Danielou of Paris, the martyred Carmelite nun Edith Stein (now
canonized), and the great Protestant theologian Eugene Rosenstock-
Huessy. But the name of no prominent Muslim convert to Christianity
(much less to Judaism) comes to mind.
It is easy to change what we think, but very hard to change how we
think. Contrary to superficial impressions, Islam is much closer in
character to atheism than to Christianity or Judaism. Although the
"what" of Muslim and atheistic thinking of course are very different,
I shall endeavor below to prove that the "how" is very similar.
Hirsi Ali states that the West is at war with Islam, not with
"terrorism", "Islamism", "radical Islam", or "Islamo-fascism". Here is
a snippet from her November exchange with Reason [1]:
Reason: The Polish Catholic Church helped defeat the [Wojciech]
Jaruzelski puppet regime [1990]. Do you think Islam could bring about
similar social and political changes?
Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political
side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become
superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
Reason: Don't you mean defeating radical Islam?
Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it's defeated, it can mutate into
something peaceful. It's very difficult to even talk about peace now.
They're not interested in peace.
Reason: We have to crush the world's 1.5 billion Muslims under our
boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, "defeat Islam"?
Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there's no
middle ground in wars.
Nonetheless Hirsi Ali has no clear idea how a war with Islam might
proceed. Again, from the Reason interview:
Hirsi Ali: Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop
the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native
Westerners converting to Islam, and they're the most fanatical
sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and
universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning
and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your
muscles and you say, "This is a warning. We won't accept this
anymore." There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
Reason: Militarily?
Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don't do that, then you have to
live with the consequence of being crushed.
The implication that the West will crush Islam by force borders on the
absurd. Western armies, to be sure, could make short work of the
military forces of any Muslim country, but what would they do then?
Would they order Muslims to abandon their spiritual life in favor of
John Locke and Thomas Hobbes, the heroes of Hirsi Ali? The West cannot
stop Muslims from burning in effigy the editors of a Danish newspaper
in their own countries.
Secular liberalism, the official ideology of almost all the nations of
Western Europe, offers hedonism, sexual license, anomie,
demoralization and gradual depopulation. Muslims do not want this. In
Africa, Christian missionaries go to Muslims and offer them God's love
and the hope of eternal life. But I am aware of no Christian
missionaries active in the Muslim banlieue (outskirts) of the Paris
suburbs or the Turkish quarters of Berlin.
By contrast, there is indeed a war with Islam, and it is being won in
parts of the world where Christians wage it on spiritual grounds. No
Christian army has had to march in its support. Europe, meanwhile, is
losing ground to Islam because it declines to fight.
Hirsi Ali, to be sure, sympathizes with Judaism and Christianity, and
allows that the two sister religions might be instrumental in
countering Islam - but only because they are compatible with secular
liberalism. As she told the London Spectator on November 28:
Christianity is different from Islam because it allows you to question
it. It probably wasn't different in the past, but it is now.
Christians - at least Christians in a liberal democracy - have
accepted, after Thomas Hobbes, that they must obey the secular rule of
law; that there must be a separation of church and state. In Islamic
doctrine such a separation has not occurred yet. This is what makes it
dangerous!
I remember Hobbes as a hard-handed apologist for Oliver Cromwell's
dictatorship rather than as a liberal democrat, but that is a quibble.
The pressing question is why Muslim apostates cling to the secular
liberalism that has failed so thoroughly in Western Europe. The
trouble is that old habits of mind die slowly. That is not only true
of Muslims. The sort of Eastern European Jews who hailed the false
messiahs of the 17th century, for example, were attracted to the
messianism of Karl Marx. Marxist intellectuals found it easy to
convert to the so-called neo-Thomism colored by the Enlightenment
rationalism of Francisco Suarez. Bolshevik brawlers in Germany in the
1930s often crossed the line from Red to Brown. And Muslims find it
easier to be atheists than to be Christians or Jews.
Allah, as I have argued in this venue elsewhere, is a very different
sort of god than YHWH and Jesus. As Benedict XVI explained in his
September 2006 Regensburg address:
For Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not
bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here
[Professor Theodore] Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist
R Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that
God is not bound even by his own word, and that "nothing would oblige
him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have
to practice" idolatry.
What does it mean for God to be "absolutely transcendent"? In the
normative doctrine of the 11th-century Muslim sage Abu Hamid al-
Ghazali, Allah does not limit himself by ordering the world through
natural law, for natural laws would impinge on his absolute freedom of
action.
There are no intermediate causes, in the sense of laws of nature. Mars
traverses an ellipse around the sun not because God has instituted
laws of motion that require Mars to traverse an ellipse, but because
Allah at every instant directs the angular velocity of Mars. Today,
Allah happens to feel like pushing Mars about in an ellipse; tomorrow
he might just as well do figure-eights.
Allah is everywhere doing everything at all times. He sets the spin on
every electron, measures the jump of every flea, the frequency of
every sneeze. That notion of a god who accepts no limitation, not even
the limit of laws of nature that he created, characterizes mainstream
Muslim thought since the 11th century. St Thomas Aquinas wrote of its
deficiency, drawing on the critique of the 12th-century Jewish
theologian and philosopher Moses Maimonides.
A century ago, the great German-Jewish theologian Franz Rosenzweig
summarized the problem as follows (my translation):
This has been the doctrine of the ruling orthodox philosophy in Islam.
The whole impact of divine creative power crashes into every
individual thing at every single moment. It is not so much that every
thing is "renewed" at every moment; rather, it is "created" with hide
and hair. Nothing can save itself from Allah's frightful,
infinitesimally-split providence. The idea of "renewal" of the world
[in Christian thought] maintains the connection between the individual
thing and the one creation, and thereby with the unity of existence,
precisely because it comprehends it within the whole, and thus grounds
providence within creation.
But this [Islamic] interpretation of providence as constant
interference on the part of the creator destroys any possibility of
such a connection. In the first case, Providence seen as the renewal
of the act of creation through events is the fulfillment of what
essentially is set into creation; in this [Islamic] case, providence -
despite its intrinsic interference into creation at every moment and
in every case - is a permanent competition between acts of creating
and the unity of creation, in fact, a competition between God the
Ruler of the World, and God the Creator. It is magic, not a sign made
by God the World Ruler for God the Creator. Despite its vehement and
haughtily carried-forward idea of the unity of God, Islam slides into
a monistic paganism, if one might use that expression; God competes
with God at every moment, as if it were the colorfully contending gods
of the pagan pantheon rolled into one (emphasis added).
Allah is no more subject to laws of nature than the nature-spirits of
the pagan world who infest every tree, rock and stream, and make magic
according to their own whimsy. The "carried-forward idea of the unity
of God" to which Rosenzweig refers, of course, is the monotheism
carried forward in outward form from Judaism, but dashed to pieces
against the competing notion of absolute transcendence.
As Rosenzweig observes, "An atheist can say, 'There is no God but
God'." If God is everywhere and in all things, he is nowhere and in
nothing. If there are no natural laws, there need be no law-giver, and
the world is an arbitrary and desolate place, a Hobbesian war of each
aspect of nature against all. Contemplation of nature in Islam is
solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short. It is not surprising that
Islamic science died out a generation or two after al-Ghazali.
It is a commonplace observation that Islam is "fatalistic". Muslims
typically conclude any statement about the future, eg, "I'll see you
at work tomorrow morning," with the qualifier, "Insha'Allah", "God
willing". Because God is everywhere and in every action, acting
without intermediate causes, the Judeo-Christian concept of divine
providence is inconceivable in Muslim terms. If Allah refuses to be
entangled by intermediate causes, no divine plan could possibly exist
that humankind cannot understand directly, but works itself out
through God's intermediaries. Rather than providence, Islam believes
in the old pagan fate, the summation of the innumerable capricious
acts that Allah in his absolute transcendence performs at every
instant.
Allah is everywhere, which is to say that Allah is nowhere in
particular. Allah's world is indistinguishable from the primeval world
of paganism, in which the "colorfully contending pantheon" of nature-
gods arranges a chaotic and incomprehensible show at every moment. The
world without Allah would look not much different; if Allah acts in a
whimsical manner without the constraint of laws of nature, we cannot
tell the difference between Allah's actions and chaos.
It would be misguided to file this away as a curious relic of Medieval
theology without direct bearing on the spiritual character of Islam.
On the contrary, the absolute transcendence of Allah in the physical
world is the cognate of his despotic character as a spiritual ruler,
who demands submission and service from his creatures. The Judeo-
Christian God loves his creatures and as an act of love makes them
free. Humankind only can be free if nature is rational, that is, if
God places self-appointed limits on his own sphere of action. In a
world ordered by natural law, humankind through its faculty of reason
can learn these laws and act freely. In the alternative case, the
absolute freedom of Allah crowds out all human freedom of action,
leaving nothing but the tyranny of caprice and fate.
The empty and arbitrary world of atheism is far closer to the Muslim
universe than the Biblical world, in which God orders the world out of
love for humankind, so that we may in freedom return the love that our
creator bears for us. Atheism is an alternative to Islam closer to
Muslim habits of mind than the love-centered world of Judaism and
Christianity.
Hirsi Ali has my unqualified admiration. The courage which guided her
journey from Somalia to the Netherlands still prompts her to warn of
the dangers before the West at great risk to her own life. I have a
similar admiration for Orhan Pamuk, now in virtual exile from his
native Turkey, and Rushdie, who remains in danger of a Muslim death
warrant, and other Muslim apostates who refuse to be intimidated.
Courage, Winston Churchill said, is the first of the virtues, for
without it, one does not have the opportunity to exercise the others.
Yet it is not the only virtue, and I hope that Hirsi Ali's journey
takes her further, beyond atheism.
Note
1. The Trouble Is the West, Reasononline, November 2007.
(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
---------------------------
BM
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
04 Dec 2007 03:43:43 AM |
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"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution and
death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women have died
as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to abortion? Thank you for
the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a parallel
between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism would be a lie. I
see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent. Some things never seem
to change.
snip
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
04 Dec 2007 08:58:09 PM |
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On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution and
death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women have died
as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a parallel
between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
BM
snip
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 01:12:03 AM |
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"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution and
death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women have
died
as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
No, it is called an assertion.
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a parallel
between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
Of course. I am not the one who lied however, that would be you. Being an
atheist does not make a person bad, good, smart or stupid. You continue to
lie about it.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Calling a liar a liar is not an attempt to dehumanize them. You have been
posting to alt.atheism for a long time now, and you are well-established as
a liar. Your latest attempt to smear atheists is yet another clear example
of your dishonesty. That you post your filth to alt.atheism is evidence of
your nastiness. Unfortunately one has to admit that you are very human,
therefore I apologise to the rodents.
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
BM
snip
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 08:35:05 PM |
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On Dec 5, 2:12 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution and
death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women have
died
as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
No, it is called an assertion.
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a parallel
between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
Of course. I am not the one who lied however, that would be you. Being an
atheist does not make a person bad, good, smart or stupid.
I never made any of those assertions. Your implication that I did is
another example of your dishonesty.
You continue to lie about it.
We see who is lying here.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Calling a liar a liar is not an attempt to dehumanize them.
Point out where "nasty little rodent" is defined as "liar."
BTW your statement clearly makes you a liar.
You have been
posting to alt.atheism for a long time now, and you are well-established as
a liar. Your latest attempt to smear atheists is yet another clear example
of your dishonesty.
It must be difficult to view facts as smears. Is that why you hide
behind your beliefs?
That you post your filth to alt.atheism is evidence of
your nastiness.
What in the article warrants the epiphet, "filth?" I guess you can't
handle something that contradicts your dogmatic beliefs.
BM
Unfortunately one has to admit that you are very human,
therefore I apologise to the rodents.
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
BM
snip- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
06 Dec 2007 02:09:28 AM |
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"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:0b29452d-1858-4f73-80a2-5e63b482d6d8@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 2:12 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote
The ususal garbage.
.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
07 Dec 2007 09:18:23 PM |
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On Dec 6, 3:09 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:0b29452d-1858-4f73-80a2-5e63b482d6d8@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 2:12 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote
The ususal garbage.
Poor guy, can't respond otherwise when your lies are exposed.
Try again:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution and
death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women have
died
as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
No, it is called an assertion.
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a parallel
between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
Of course. I am not the one who lied however, that would be you. Being an
atheist does not make a person bad, good, smart or stupid.
I never made any of those assertions. Your implication that I did is
another example of your dishonesty.
You continue to lie about it.
We see who is lying here.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Calling a liar a liar is not an attempt to dehumanize them.
Point out where "nasty little rodent" is defined as "liar."
BTW your statement clearly makes you a liar.
You have been
posting to alt.atheism for a long time now, and you are well-established as
a liar. Your latest attempt to smear atheists is yet another clear example
of your dishonesty.
It must be difficult to view facts as smears. Is that why you hide
behind your beliefs?
That you post your filth to alt.atheism is evidence of
your nastiness.
What in the article warrants the epiphet, "filth?" I guess you can't
handle something that contradicts your dogmatic beliefs.
BM
.
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| User: "Sanitys Little Helper" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 03:57:56 AM |
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The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com to
alt.atheism:
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.google
groups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution
and death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women
have died as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to
abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a
parallel between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism
would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
Including you.
--
David Silverman C.B.E.
aa #2208
Lord Mayor of Awphucket
And now, today's sponsor message:
For the beluga caviar of stupidity, it's got to be...
Brian Carey.
Available in a newsgroup near you.
.
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 10:31:47 AM |
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|
"Sanity's Little Helper" <elvish@noshpam.org> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Xns99FD6560BDB3mxyzptlk@194.177.96.26...
The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com to
alt.atheism:
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.google
groups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution
and death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women
have died as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to
abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a
parallel between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism
would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
Including you.
I thought his accusation that I was demonizing him to an incredible piece of
irony, considering all the crimes and evil he has tried to attach to
atheists. I call him a liar because of it, and he whines about being
demonized. Clearly he has no shame or sense of decency.
.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 08:28:12 PM |
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On Dec 5, 11:31 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Sanity's Little Helper" <elv...@noshpam.org> skrev i en meddelelsenews:Xns99FD6560BDB3mxyzptlk@194.177.96.26...
The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.comto
alt.atheism:
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.google
groups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution
and death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women
have died as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to
abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a
parallel between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism
would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
Including you.
I thought his accusation that I was demonizing him to an incredible piece of
irony, considering all the crimes and evil he has tried to attach to
atheists.
You mean, facts?
I call him a liar because of it,
Which is itself a lie, as all the empirical facts I provided have been
true.
and he whines about being demonized.
Now you are making things up again. I pointed out a fact, I did not
"whine."
BM
Clearly he has no shame or sense of decency.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
06 Dec 2007 02:12:32 AM |
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"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:c4095585-71a7-4e5b-9a29-96c7e6ad3e5b@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 11:31 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Sanity's Little Helper" <elv...@noshpam.org> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:Xns99FD6560BDB3mxyzptlk@194.177.96.26...
The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:91a89fde-29a6-4de1-aed4-e6a885541e40@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.comto
alt.atheism:
On Dec 4, 4:43 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en
meddelelsenews:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.google
groups.com...
Parallels, of course:
Why yes there are. Moslem teachings have resulted in the persecution
and death of women, and so have Christian teachings. How many women
have died as a result of the Catholic Church's resistance to
abortion?
Yet Muslims have greater affinity for atheism. Interesting, no?
Thank you for the reminder.
On the other hand, since atheism has no teachings, suggesting a
parallel between the evils of Islam and Catholicism and atheism
would be a lie.
In which case it would be equally wrong to compare atheism
positively.
I see that you continue to be a nasty little rodent.
---------------
Ah yes, dehumanize those you don't like as rodents (rats). Some
habits are hard for Germans to break, aren't they?
Some things never seem to change.
Yes, as we have seen above.
I guess it speaks to the intellectual level of this group that noone
could respond to the article's substance.
Including you.
I thought his accusation that I was demonizing him to an incredible piece
of
irony, considering all the crimes and evil he has tried to attach to
atheists.
You mean, facts?
I call him a liar because of it,
Which is itself a lie, as all the empirical facts I provided have been
true.
Of course, how could they not be?
and he whines about being demonized.
Now you are making things up again. I pointed out a fact, I did not
"whine."
There, there.
BM
Clearly he has no shame or sense of decency.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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| User: "skyeyes" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 01:41:25 PM |
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On Dec 3, 9:26 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote:
Why do Muslim apostates gravitate towards atheism?
Quite simply, because the best way to combat a barbaric superstition
is *not* another barbaric superstition. The best weapon against any
barbaric superstition is calm reason which, when employed honestly and
consistently, inevitably leads to atheism.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 08:37:19 PM |
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On Dec 5, 2:41 pm, skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net> wrote:
On Dec 3, 9:26 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote:
Why do Muslim apostates gravitate towards atheism?
Quite simply, because the best way to combat a barbaric superstition
is *not* another barbaric superstition. The best weapon against any
barbaric superstition is calm reason which, when employed honestly and
consistently, inevitably leads to atheism.
I like Ernst Junger's quote, "fallen altars are occupied by demons."
Something to reflect upon when looking beyond atheism...
regards,
BM
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
06 Dec 2007 02:17:12 AM |
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"The Black Monk" <ch.mon@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:096a84ec-c2e8-4a24-a868-85408c5ab82d@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 2:41 pm, skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net> wrote:
On Dec 3, 9:26 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote:
Why do Muslim apostates gravitate towards atheism?
Quite simply, because the best way to combat a barbaric superstition
is *not* another barbaric superstition. The best weapon against any
barbaric superstition is calm reason which, when employed honestly and
consistently, inevitably leads to atheism.
I like Ernst Junger's quote, "fallen altars are occupied by demons."
Something to reflect upon when looking beyond atheism...
Odd that you like that quote, since it tends to contradict your Claim about
Moslems and atheism. Of course I realize that you are too delusional to see
that - and too dishonest.
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| User: "The Black Monk" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
07 Dec 2007 09:19:45 PM |
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On Dec 6, 3:17 am, "thomas p." <gudl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
"The Black Monk" <ch....@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelsenews:096a84ec-c2e8-4a24-a868-85408c5ab82d@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 5, 2:41 pm, skyeyes <skye...@dakotacom.net> wrote:
On Dec 3, 9:26 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote:
Why do Muslim apostates gravitate towards atheism?
Quite simply, because the best way to combat a barbaric superstition
is *not* another barbaric superstition. The best weapon against any
barbaric superstition is calm reason which, when employed honestly and
consistently, inevitably leads to atheism.
I like Ernst Junger's quote, "fallen altars are occupied by demons."
Something to reflect upon when looking beyond atheism...
Odd that you like that quote, since it tends to contradict your Claim about
Moslems and atheism.
Not at all.
Of course I realize that you are too delusional to see
that - and too dishonest.
Your dishonesty has been shown on this thread. Your claims, as usual,
have no empirical basis.
BM
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
05 Dec 2007 02:35:46 PM |
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On Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:41:25 -0800 (PST), skyeyes
<skyeyes@dakotacom.net> wrote:
On Dec 3, 9:26 pm, The Black Monk <ch....@hotmail.com> wrote:
Why do Muslim apostates gravitate towards atheism?
Quite simply, because the best way to combat a barbaric superstition
is *not* another barbaric superstition. The best weapon against any
barbaric superstition is calm reason which, when employed honestly and
consistently, inevitably leads to atheism.
That, and the penalty for admitting switching delusions is death.
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| User: "Sanitys Little Helper" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
04 Dec 2007 01:56:56 AM |
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The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in news:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-
99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com to alt.atheism:
(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
---------------------------
BM
Did you?
Shall I ask them if you did?
--
David Silverman C.B.E.
aa #2208
Lord Mayor of Awphucket
And now, today's sponsor message:
For the beluga caviar of stupidity, it's got to be...
Brian Carey.
Available in a newsgroup near you.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
04 Dec 2007 08:15:14 AM |
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Sanity's Little Helper wrote:
The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-
99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com to alt.atheism:
(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
---------------------------
BM
Did you?
Shall I ask them if you did?
Reproducing on Usenet with attribution does not constitute a sale,
syndication, or publication.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Islam and Atheism |
04 Dec 2007 04:18:58 PM |
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On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 09:15:14 -0500, "Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com>
wrote:
Sanity's Little Helper wrote:
The Black Monk <ch.mon@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:70a4f731-eb37-4dc3-bbfe-
99f27e4e2e2c@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com to alt.atheism:
(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved. Please
contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
---------------------------
BM
Did you?
Shall I ask them if you did?
Reproducing on Usenet with attribution does not constitute a sale,
syndication, or publication.
But does most certainly constitute a breach of copyright laws, in the
manner that it was performed.
Without doubt.
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