| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sexual Chocolate" |
| Date: |
18 May 2007 12:29:34 PM |
| Object: |
Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
Isn't that Just Your Interpretation?
Atheist: Okay, I went back and read this entire book just like you
asked, but I don't think you've made the case that Christianity is
true.
Christian: Why not?
Atheist: Because it's just your interpretation.
Christian: Of course it's my interpretation, but that doesn't mean my
interpretation is wrong.
Atheist: I say it is wrong!
Christian: Is that just your interpretation?
Atheist: So you're turning the tables on me.
Christian: Yes. All conclusions involve making an interpretation,
including yours. And in order for you to know that my interpretation
(Christianity) is objectively wrong, you would have to know what is
objectively right. So what is that right interpretation?
Atheist: There are no objective interpretations.
Christian: Forgive me for doing this again, but is that an objective
interpretation?
Atheist: Stop that!
Christian: Stop what, being logical? I'm just using the Road Runner
tactic from chapter 1. When you say something that's self-defeating, I
feel compelled to point it out. So how can you make the objective
interpretation that there are no objective interpretations?
Atheist: Okay, so maybe there are objective interpretations.
Christian: Yes, there are. While you may interpret the evidence and
conclude that Christianity is false, I may do the same and conclude
it's true. But since opposites cannot both be true, one of us must be
right, and the other one must be wrong. So who is right?
Atheist: I am.
Christian: Why?
Atheist: I just think I'm right.
Christian: But that's just an assertion. You must give evidence rather
than just make assertions. In this book, we didn't make assertions that
Christianity is true-we gave evidence every step of the way, from the
question of truth all the way to the inspiration of the Bible. What
evidence do you have that atheism is true?
Atheist: Evil and science.
Christian: That's not positive evidence for atheism but merely
perceived obstacles to belief in Christianity. As we have seen, the
existence of evil doesn't disprove God (appendix 1), and scientific
discoveries actually support the Christian worldview (chapters 3-6).
Atheist: But if Christianity is true, it excludes too many people.
After all, millions of people are not Christians.
Christian: That doesn't determine whether Christianity is true or not.
After all, truth is not determined by how many people believe it. Truth
is discovered by looking at the evidence. Is your interpretation (that
Christianity is false) necessarily wrong because it excludes millions
of Christians? Atheist: No.
Christian: Neither is mine, then. Besides, as we saw when we talked
about evil, Christianity doesn't exclude people-people exclude
themselves from Christianity. Everyone knows that God exists. But
because we all have free will, some people choose to suppress that
knowledge so that they can follow their own desires. Paul talks about
that in Romans chapter 1.
Atheist: Maybe so, but I find your conclusion extremely judgmental.
And you know, you ought not judge!
Christian: Forgive me again, but if we ought not judge, then why are
you judging me for judging?
Atheist: What's the matter, Mister Holy-you'd rather play logic games
than believe what Jesus said?
Christian: It's not a mere game but an observation about the way
things really are. It's self-defeating to tell me, "You ought not
judge" when that's a judgment itself. Furthermore, you are making a
judgment when you say Christianity is not true!
Atheist: Okay, but what about my second point. Don't you believe what
Jesus said?
Christian: Why are you quoting the Bible? Do you believe it's true
now?
Atheist: No, but you do. So why don't you believe what Jesus said?
Christian: I do. The problem is you don't know what he said. Jesus did
not tell us not to judge. He simply told us not to judge
hypocritically. He said, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For
in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the
measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt. 7:1-2). He then
went on to say, "Take the plank out of your own eye, and then your will
see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." In other
words, when you judge, don't judge hypocritically. The Bible also
commands us to make judgments when it tells us to "test everything" (1
Thess. 5:21), and not to "believe every spirit" (1 John 4:1) but to
believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life (John 3:16).
Atheist: Are you done?
Christian: No. There's one more point: it would be impossible to live
very long if you didn't judge good from evil. You make hundreds of
vital decisions every day that can either hurt you or help you. When
you make those decisions you are making judgments!
Atheist: Alright, I see that everyone makes judgments. And you are
making judgments by interpreting the Bible the way you do. Who's to say
that your interpretation is right?
Christian: You need to look at the context of the passage to discover
the objective meaning.
Atheist: If objective interpretations are possible, then why are there
so many different interpretations of the Bible?
Christian: Why do so many people get their math sums wrong? Is there
no right answer to arithmetic problems?
Atheist: Language is different. I think that there are many
interpretations of a sentence or a Bible verse that are true. That's
why you get so many denominations.
Christian: So you are saying that sentences can be interpreted in only
one way.
Atheist: No! . Didn't you hear what I just said? I said exactly the
opposite is true. There are many valid interpretations.
Christian: If there are many valid interpretations, then why did you
just correct me for misinterpreting what you said?
Atheist: I did?
Christian: Yes, you just told me that I misunderstood you. In effect,
you said that my interpretation was wrong! Why did you do that if there
are many valid interpretations?
Atheist: Because I knew what I meant, and it should have been obvious
to you.
Christian: You're right. So let me ask you this: why is it that when
you make a statement, you expect others to know what you mean, but when
God makes a statement in the Bible, you give yourself the option of
pouring any meaning you want into it?
Atheist: Okay, so maybe there are objective interpretations. But if
there are, then why are there so many denominations?
Christian: For the same reason there are a lot of non-Christians. It's
not because the truth is not perceived, it's because the truth is not
received. In other words, we believe our own traditions and desires
over the Word of God. Jesus spoke forcefully against doing this
(Matthew 15; 23).
Atheist: Alright. I'm going to come clean with you.
Christian: It's about time!
Atheist: The real problem I have with Christianity is that it leads to
intolerance. You Christians all think you have the truth! Christian:
Haven't you noticed that everyone thinks they have the truth? Those who
say Christianity is false think they have that truth. Even those who
say every religion is true think that's the truth!
Atheist: Okay, okay, you're right. I think atheism is true. But I'm
not intolerant like most Christians!
Christian: Even if Christians are intolerant, that wouldn't mean
Christianity is false.
Atheist: I realize that, but it's still a practical problem.
Christian: How so?
Atheist: Because people who think they have the truth want to impose
that truth on others.
Christian: Do you mean politically?
Atheist: Yes.
Christian: I've got news for you: everyone involved in
politics-including every non-Christian-is trying to impose what he or
she thinks is the truth. So what's your point?
Atheist: My point is that Christians want to take away the rights of
people!
Christian: Actually, Christianity is one of the few worldviews that
can justify absolute human rights because it affirms that those rights
are given to us by God. As our founders recognized, governments aren't
meant to give or take away rights: governments are meant to secure
rights that the people already possess. That's what we affirmed in our
Declaration of Independence.
Atheist: But what about tolerance?
Christian: Christianity is one of the few worldviews that not only
offers but champions religious tolerance. Since God doesn't force
anyone to believe (in fact the purpose of this life is to make a free
choice), most Christians recognize that government shouldn't try to
force belief either.
Atheist: But during the Crusades, some Christians obviously thought
differently!
Christian: They may have called themselves Christians, but they
certainly were not following the teachings of Christ. Jesus never
condoned such conduct.
Atheist: I think a completely secular government is the most tolerant
of all. After all, there is religious freedom in secular countries in
Europe.
Christian: Those countries do exist, but most of them are living off
the remnants of the Christian worldview from previous generations. How
much religious freedom is there in a self-declared atheistic country
such as China, or how much was there in the former Soviet Union? Not
much. And if you go to most Muslim countries today, you'll also find
very little religious freedom. Last I checked, churches are not allowed
in Saudi Arabia, and most other Muslim countries treat Christians as
second-class citizens.
Atheist: That may be true for religious tolerance, but most Christians
are not very tolerant about certain moral issues.
Christian: Do you think tolerance is an absolute moral obligation?
Atheist: You're trying to connect moral obligations with God again,
aren't you?
Christian: There is no other connection. As we saw in chapter 7, there
are no moral obligations or moral rights if there is no God. So why
should anyone be tolerant if there is no moral obligation to be
tolerant?
Atheist: Because it's the right thing to do.
Christian: That's just another assertion. As an atheist, you have no
way to justify why anyone should be tolerant.
Atheist: Maybe not. But as a Christian, you do. So why don't you
believe that we ought to be tolerant?
Christian: Actually, the supreme moral obligation is love-not
tolerance. Tolerance says, "Hold your nose and put up with others."
Love says, "Reach out and help others."
Atheist: Why can't you be tolerant and loving?
Christian: You can, but sometimes love requires you to be intolerant.
For example, wouldn't it be unloving to tolerate murder, rape, theft,
or racism?
Atheist: I suppose so.
Christian: Good, but we're getting a little off the subject. The focus
of Christianity is spiritual, not social salvation. While Christians
certainly have social obligations, Christ came to free us from our
sins, not to free us from "the Romans."
Atheist: You wouldn't know that by the behavior of some Christians
today.
Christian: You mean you don't like their biblical views on moral
issues like abortion and homosexuality?
Atheist: Yes.
Christian: So?
Atheist: What do you mean, so? Those issues are important to me!
Christian: Are those issues so important to you that you're willing to
give up truth itself in order to keep them?
Atheist: What are you talking about?
Christian: The issue is truth, not what you find politically or
personally attractive. Do you think you ought to believe what's true?
Atheist: Of course. Every reasonable person would say yes to that!
Christian: So if Christianity is true, you ought to believe it
regardless of the impact you think it might have on politics, moral
issues, or any other facet of your life.
Atheist: That's hard to do.
Christian: Maybe. But it's a lot harder in the long run to believe
error. Christ said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny
himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save
his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet
forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" Do
you really want to exchange your eternal soul for temporal political
positions or personal preferences?
Atheist: If Christianity is true, that's the choice I have to make.
Christian: Yes. And God wants you to choose him. But he loves you so
much that he'll respect either choice you make. Just remember that
either choice you make will have consequences here and in eternity. And
that's not just my interpretation.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Geisler, N. L., & Turek, F. (2004). I don't have enough
faith to be an atheist (402). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway
Books.
.
|
|
| User: "John Brockbank" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
18 May 2007 01:44:23 PM |
|
|
< On 18 May, 18:29, "Sexual Chocolate"
<sexualchocolatelj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
He said, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For
in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the
measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt. 7:1-2). He then
went on to say, "Take the plank out of your own eye, and then your
will
see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." In other
words, when you judge, don't judge hypocritically. >
That is an excellent example of incorrect interpretation. Jesus say
'Judge not', and a Christian waters it down to 'it is OK to judge
actually, what Jesus meant was do not be a hypocrit'.
The biggest thing wrong with Christianity is the same as with other
religions - the acceptance of supernatural explanations, but the
second biggest thing wrong is I think restricted to Christianity. It
is that Christians do not really agree with the teachings of Jesus as
given in the Bible.and so they invent all sorts of distortions. This
of course is because they want members, and don't care much what
principles and ethics they have as long as they are members.
Then they claim they are not hypocrits. Go figure.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tracii Guns Hyatt" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
18 May 2007 04:34:39 PM |
|
|
"John Brockbank" <JohnBrockbank@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:1179513863.842552.102990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
< On 18 May, 18:29, "Sexual Chocolate"
<sexualchocolatelj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
He said, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For
in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the
measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt. 7:1-2). He then
went on to say, "Take the plank out of your own eye, and then your
will
see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." In other
words, when you judge, don't judge hypocritically. >
That is an excellent example of incorrect interpretation. Jesus say
'Judge not', and a Christian waters it down to 'it is OK to judge
actually, what Jesus meant was do not be a hypocrit'.
The biggest thing wrong with Christianity is the same as with other
religions - the acceptance of supernatural explanations, but the
second biggest thing wrong is I think restricted to Christianity. It
is that Christians do not really agree with the teachings of Jesus as
given in the Bible.and so they invent all sorts of distortions. This
of course is because they want members, and don't care much what
principles and ethics they have as long as they are members.
Then they claim they are not hypocrits. Go figure.
Do not missout on the eternal life of Christianity,
based on observable Christians. Base it on the deity, Jesus Christ.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
19 May 2007 04:41:45 AM |
|
|
"Tracii Guns Hyatt" <traciig_H20@hotmail.com> wrote
snip
Do not missout on the eternal life of Christianity,
based on observable Christians. Base it on the deity, Jesus Christ.
i.e., base it on made up *****.
No thanks.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
20 May 2007 01:43:32 AM |
|
|
In article <u66dnc5bTZOfgdPbnZ2dnUVZ_uCinZ2d@giganews.com>,
"Tracii Guns Hyatt" <traciig_H20@hotmail.com> wrote:
"John Brockbank" <JohnBrockbank@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1179513863.842552.102990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
< On 18 May, 18:29, "Sexual Chocolate"
<sexualchocolatelj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
He said, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For
in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the
measure you use, it will be measured to you" (Matt. 7:1-2). He then
went on to say, "Take the plank out of your own eye, and then your
will
see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." In other
words, when you judge, don't judge hypocritically. >
That is an excellent example of incorrect interpretation. Jesus say
'Judge not', and a Christian waters it down to 'it is OK to judge
actually, what Jesus meant was do not be a hypocrit'.
The biggest thing wrong with Christianity is the same as with other
religions - the acceptance of supernatural explanations, but the
second biggest thing wrong is I think restricted to Christianity. It
is that Christians do not really agree with the teachings of Jesus as
given in the Bible.and so they invent all sorts of distortions. This
of course is because they want members, and don't care much what
principles and ethics they have as long as they are members.
Then they claim they are not hypocrits. Go figure.
Do not missout on the eternal life of Christianity,
based on observable Christians. Base it on the deity, Jesus Christ.
There is no convincing evidence that your Jesus guy ever existed, and
absolutely none that he was any kind of a magic being.
--
John #1782
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be
white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
- Saint Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Founder of the Jesuit Order.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Science is our salvation, *****! |
18 May 2007 11:06:54 PM |
|
|
In article <u66dnc5bTZOfgdPbnZ2dnUVZ_uCinZ2d@giganews.com>,
traciig_H20@hotmail.com says...
Do not missout on the eternal life of Christianity,
based on observable Christians. Base it on the deity, Jesus Christ.
We don't need your god for immortality. Medicine is poised to achieve
that. This is why theists are fighting things like embryonic stem cell
research by tooth and nail. They know that medical breakthrough that
significantly extend human life will take away the last empty promise
which religion attempts to offer. Medicine already cures disease far
better than all the faith-healers in history. Now, when medicine wipes
out heart disease, cancers, diabetes and chronic aging issues, theism
will have nothing with which to bribe its adherents.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
18 May 2007 07:45:59 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 18 May 2007 17:34:39 -0400, "Tracii Guns Hyatt"
<traciig_H20@hotmail.com> wrote:
Do not missout on the eternal life of Christianity,
Droning on and on and on isn't eternal life, it only seems like it to
those who have to listen to your droning.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
18 May 2007 04:44:50 PM |
|
|
On May 18, 5:34 pm, "Tracii Guns Hyatt" <traciig_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"John Brockbank" <JohnBrockb...@googlemail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179513863.842552.102990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
< On 18 May, 18:29, "Sexual Chocolate"
<sexualchocolatelj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
Do not missout on the eternal life of Christianity,
Christianity is a myth. It was created during the Bronze and Iron ages
by the inevitable clash between humanity's ancient pagan myths and the
daring "new" Jewish concept of monotheism.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/...
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-New-Testament-Christian/dp/0060655186...
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Gospel-Book-Christian-Origins/dp/006065375...
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
based on observable Christians. Base it on the deity, Jesus Christ.
Jesus christ probably never existed.
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/christian.htm
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
http://jesusneverexisted.com/
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pangur Ban" |
|
| Title: Re: Isn't that Just Your Interpretation? |
18 May 2007 04:32:50 PM |
|
|
After serious thinking Sexual Chocolate wrote :
Nothing ... after snippage of the nonsense.
Pang
--
I not only keep grudges; I feed and breed 'em!
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" |
|
| Title: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
18 May 2007 12:51:14 PM |
|
|
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tracii Guns Hyatt" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
18 May 2007 04:35:19 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1179510674.838189.316160@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
.
|
|
|
| User: "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
18 May 2007 04:54:41 PM |
|
|
On May 18, 10:35 pm, "Tracii Guns Hyatt" <traciig_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <use...@heathens.org.uk> wrote in messagenews:1179510674.838189.316160@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
That's a red herring.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Somebody Who Loves You" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 03:36:43 PM |
|
|
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <user13@heathens.org.uk> wrote in message
news:1179525281.151071.188990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
That's a red herring.
.. Why Christians are Hated -
(The Hatred is Supernatural, and they aren't even aware how it's taken them over.)
John 15:18-20 (NASB95)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18 "aIf the world hates you, 1you know that it has hated Me
before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but aI chose you out of the world,
bbecause of this the world hates you.
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'aA slave is not
greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, bthey will also
persecute you; if they ckept My word, they will keep yours also.
[1]
If the world loves you, watch out-you're in hot water. Paul told his
protigi, Timothy, that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). That's a fact. If you are living godly,
you're not going to make it into the Who's Who of the world's system. It
just won't work that way.
[2]
15:18, 19 Since Satan is the one who dominates the evil world system in
rebellion against God (14:30), the result is that the world hates not only
Jesus, but those who follow Him (2 Tim. 3:12). Hatred toward Jesus means
also hatred toward the Father who sent Him (v. 23).
15:20 servant...master. That axiom, spoken also in 13:16, reflects the
obvious truth that led Jesus to inform His disciples. They could expect to
be treated like He was treated because those who hated Him don't know God
(v. 21) and would hate them also; and conversely, those who listened with
faith to Him, would hear them also.
[3]
The reason the world will hate you is because you're light (1
Thessalonians 5:5). And when light shines, people in the dark get real
uneasy. Like bugs under a rock, they start scrambling and fleeing. "If I
hadn't come," said Jesus, "men could continue on in their sin, and no one
would feel uncomfortable. But because I came, because of how I lived,
because of where I stand, men have no cloak for their sin. Consequently,
they feel exposed and foolish in their iniquity. And will hate you as a
result."[4]
Jesus Predicts the World's Hatred (15:18-16:4)
15:18, 19 The disciples were not to be surprised or disheartened if the
world hates them. (The if does not express any doubt that this would
happen; it was certain.) The world hated the Lord, and it will hate all
who resemble Him.
Men of the world love those who live as they do-those who use vile
language and indulge in the lusts of the flesh, or people who are cultured
but live only for themselves. Christians condemn them by their holy lives,
therefore the world hates them.
15:20 Here servant literally means "slave." A disciple should not expect
any better treatment from the world than his Master received. He will be
persecuted just as Christ was. His word will be refused just as the
Savior's was.
[5]
Notice what will happen if you are a child of God. The world will hate
you. I believe that a Christian's popularity can be an indication of how
he is representing Christ to the world. I do not believe a Christian can
be popular in the world. No Christian has any right to be more popular
than Jesus was. Beware of a compromising position in order to be popular.
The world will not love a real child of God. The world will love you if
you are of the world. You don't have to act oddly or be super-pious. The
world will hate you if you are a child of God. This is difficult,
especially for young people who want so much to be popular. Let's tell our
young people what the Lord says. They are not going to be popular with the
world if they are the children of God.
Unfortunately, there are folk in the church today who are not honestly
born again, and they will also hate you if you are a child of God. They
will hate the preacher if he is true to the Word of God. May I say again,
beware of the Christian who is popular with the world.
[6]
15:18-19 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it
hated you." NRSV Jesus was hated from the very beginning (when Jesus was a
young child, King Herod sought him out to kill him-Matthew 2:13-16). He
was hated at the end when the people rejected him as the Savior and called
for his crucifixion. The same world would surely hate those who proclaim
allegiance to the crucified Lord.
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you
do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That
is why the world hates you." NIV Jesus wants believers to be distinctive;
he sets us apart from the world. His choosing and setting us apart makes
us holy and helps us grow. Our very separation from the world arouses the
world's animosity. The world would prefer that we were like them; since we
are not, they hate us (see 1 Peter 4:3-4).
.. WELCOMED REJECTION
Jesus taught us to expect rejection. Rejection may be difficult to take,
but if we never experience it, we may be hiding our Christianity from
others. If we profess Christ and are warmly embraced by the world, we
should reexamine our commitment and life-style. If we remain silent about
our faith in order to gain acceptance by the world, we have made a poor
trade. In fact, we are being dishonest in two ways: We deny the faith we
claim as central in our lives, and we deceive those whose acceptance we
want by not revealing our Christian faith. The Scriptures warn us,
"Friendship with the world is hatred toward God" (James 4:4 niv; see also
2 Timothy 3:10-12; 1 John 2:15-17; 3:1; 4:5-6).
[7]
15:18 Jesus wanted to prepare His disciples for the opposition that they
would face after His departure. To do this He announced first that they
would encounter opposition from the world (cf. 1 John 3:13). Here the
world (Gr. kosmos) refers to the mass of unbelievers. The conditional
sentence in the Greek text assumes the reality of what Jesus stated for
the argument's sake. The world would hate them. A person cannot be an
intimate friend of Jesus (i.e., and abiding believer) without drawing
hatred from His enemies.
The world hates Jesus because He testified that its deeds are evil (7:7).
His abiding disciples draw hatred from the world because they associate
themselves with Him and His teachings and because they seek to advance His
mission. Remembering the world's hatred for the Master makes bearing that
hatred easier for His disciple.
15:19 Believers are aliens in the world because Jesus has called us out of
it to fulfill His plans and purposes. The world does not hate us because
we are superior but because we are servants of the Lord whom it has
rejected.
[8]
John 7:7 (NASB95)
7 "aThe world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify
of it, that bits deeds are evil.
[9]
.. Why are Christians Hated?
John 15:18-15:27
One of the things that confuses many Christians is the attitude of
non-Christians toward them. Most of us think that since we go to the world
with the greatest and most important message in all of history that the
world would applaud and cheer. For the most part, people are not waiting
for that message with open arms. In fact, the Bible says that the world
does not want us or our message. They hate us. Hate? That is what Jesus
said.
Why does the world hate Christians?
A. Because Christians are different. (18,19)
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hate you."
"world" is not the earth. Everyone lives in the physical world. It is the
word - cosmos. It is the word from which we get the word COSMETICS. It
means "to put in order." Cosmetics are designed to put women's faces in
order. Most of you have watched women putting on their make-up with the
use of the car mirror while on their way to work.
The world than is organized. Put in order. It is a system run by an
intelligent head, the devil. He has one specific goal: to get this world
order to leave God out. The word "worldly" then as it is used biblically
means to operate as if there is no God. Don Carson - The created moral
order in active rebellion against God. To buy into that system and operate
within that system that in practice and lifestyle operates independently
of God.
You cannot reconcile the war between the kingdom of this world and the
kingdom of God. (James 4:4) "Know ye not that the friendship of the world
is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be the friend of the world is
the enemy of God." You cannot be a friend of that which hates the Father.
The world says: disobey God, forget God, don't follow God, leave God out,
forsake God. You can't be a friend of something like that. You can't have
God and the world.
(Rom 12:2) "Don't be conformed to this world." Don't be squeezed into its
mold. Don't let the world tell you what to do.
Ho do you know when the world is telling you what to do? Can you include
God? Anything that keeps you from including God is worldly.
As a Christian, what can I do? Anything God can do with you. If Jesus has
to wait outside while you do it, DON'T DO IT!
You love what you spend your time, your money and your energy on. If very
little of it is going to God, then God is not the One you love.
(19) "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because
ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore
the world hateth you."
The more you look like Christ the more the world is going to treat you the
same way it treated Him. When you don't act, talk or think like the world
does, you are going to make the crowd uncomfortable. You are not going to
be "one of us." The fact is you are not. God has "chosen you out" by His
sovereign grace. This concept of a Christian living in the world, but not
being of the world is a key concept to understand what it means to be a
Christian. "His own" are those who have become at home in the world. Life
on this earth is all they live for. They spend their lives trying to get
the things of this world. Their values are wrapped up in power, pleasure
and possessions.
B. Because Christians insist on an absolute standard.(20-24)
(20) "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater
than his lord. If they have presecuted Me, they will also persecute you;
if they have kept My saying, they will keep yours also."
If the church today is not undergoing persecution it may be because there
is very little distinction between the world and the church. Religious
surveys consistently show that there are no noticeable differences between
the lifestyles of those who attend church and those who do not. Church
members wear the same clothes as the secular culture, watch the same
movies, get divorced at the same rate, buy as many lottery tickets, have
as man affairs and use just as many questionable business practices. The
secular culture has so invaded the minds and hearts of those in the church
both in the pew and the pulpit, that the godless society sees nothing
about the church worth persecuting. That in itself may be the most telling
criticism the church faces today.
(21) "Butall these things will they do unto you for My name's sake,
because they know not Him that sent Me."
They hated Jesus because they did not know the Father. They will hate you
becaue they don't know Jesus.
(22) "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but
now they have no cloak for their sin."
If Jesus had kept His mouth shut and just gone around healing and feeding
people, there wouldn't have been any trouble. But He exposed their sin.
(23) "He that hateth Me hateth My Father also."
You can't have the Father without the Son.
(24) "If I had not done among them the works which none other man did,
they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both Me and My
Father."
They heard what He said and they saw His lifestyle and it revealed their
sinfulness. Now there was an absolute standard. Everything is to be
measured against Jesus. When you live a life that imitates Christ it will
bring to mind their own sins. They do not want a Christian who reflects
God's holiness. Folks want to hear "we all sin." They don't want to be
confronted by a higher standard. That is why they are so quick to latch on
to anything negative they hear about the church.
C. Because Christians remind them of the God they hate. (25-27)
(25) "But this cometh to pass, that the Word might be fulfilled that is
written in their law, They hated Me with a cause."
Remember when you were in school. Sometimes they graded on a CURVE. The
highest grade became a 100. It created a whole new standard. Jesus messed
up the curve. When He graded out 100 everyone else had to be compared to
Him.
Harry Ironside told the story of the missionary in Africa. In a very
backward village, he left a mirror hanging on a tree after shaving. The
wife of the tribal chief came along and looked into it. She had never seen
a mirror before. She asked "Who is that ugly woman?" When the missionary
explained the mirror to her and told her that it was she. She got made,
threw the mirror down and crushed it.
The world doesn't want to be shown what it looks like. It makes them mad.
They can't take out their hatred on Christ, so they take it out on you.
(26) "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the
Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He
shall testify of Me."
How am I going to make it in this hostile world? "The Comforter" will give
me the staying power.
(27) "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from
the beginning."
The Holy Spirit witnesses and you witness. You have a strength beyond
yourself ot go on in your Christian witness. A witness is someone who
simply tells what he or she has experienced.
Billy Graham is now in his 80's and has Parkinson's Disease. Just a few
years ago, he told this story that reveals that he understood that this
world is not our home. Many wonderful things had been said about him as he
stepped to the podium at a luncheon given in his honor in his hometown of
Charlotte, N.C.
"I'm reminded today of Albert Einstein, the great physicist who this month
has been honore by Time magazine as the Man of the Century. Einstein was
once traveling from Princeton on a train when the conductor came down the
aisle, punching tickets of every passenger. When he came to Einstein,
Einstein reached in his vest pocket. He couldn't find his ticket, so he
reached in his trousers pocket. It wasn't there. So he looked in in his
briefcase but couldn't find it. Then he looked in the seat beside him. He
still couldn't find it.
The conductor said "Dr. Einstein, I know who you are. We all know who you
are. I'm sure you bought a ticket. Don't worry about it". Einstein nodded
appreciatively. The conductor continued down the aisle punching tickets.
As he was ready to move to the next car, he turned around and saw the
great physicist down on his hands and knees looking under his seat for his
ticket. The conductor rushed back and said, "Dr. Einstein, don't worry, I
know who you are. No problem. You don't need a ticket. I'm sure you bought
one."
Einstein looked at the conductor and said, "Young man, I too, know who I
am. What I don't know is where I'm going."
Having said that Billy Graham continued, "See the suit I'm wearing? It's a
brand new suit. My wife, my children, and my grandchildren are telling me
I've gotten a little slovenly in my old age. I used to be more fastidious.
So I went out and bought a new suit for this luncheon and one more
occasion.
You know what that occasion is? This is the suit in which I'll be buried.
But when you hear I'm dead, I don't want you to immediately remember the
suit I'm wearing. I want you to remember this:
I NOT ONLY KNOW WHO I AM...I ALSO KNOW WHERE I'M GOING."
That is the message that we are called to share with a lost world. We know
who we are in Christ and we know where we will spend eternity. And we know
how they can have the same assurance.
It is not a popular message. Most will reject it. Sharing the message may
make you very unpopular with people. But you will be popular with the
Christ who first brought it and received an even worse reception.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
a John 7:7; 1 John 3:13 1 Or (imperative) know that a John 15:16 b
Matt 10:22; 24:9; John 17:14 a Matt 10:24; John 13:16 b 1 Cor 4:12; 2
Cor 4:9; 2 Tim 3:12 c John 8:51
[1] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The
Lockman Foundation.
[2]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (567).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[3]MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic
ed.) (Jn 15:18). Nashville: Word Pub.
[4]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (567).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[5]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (Jn 15:18). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
[6]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (4:470). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
NRSV Scripture quotations marked NRSV are taken from the New Revised
Standard Version of the Bible, copyrighted, 1989 by the Division of
Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in
the United States of America, and are used by permission. All rights
reserved.
NIV Scripture quotations marked NIV are taken from the Holy Bible, New
International Version®. NIV®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by
International Bible Society. Used by permission of Zondervan Publishing
House. All rights reserved.
[7]Barton, B. B. (1993). John. Life application Bible commentary (316).
Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[8]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (Jn 15:18-19). Galaxie Software.
a John 15:18f
b John 3:19f
[9] New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995. LaHabra, CA: The
Lockman Foundation.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 05:43:20 PM |
|
|
"Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_club@yahoo.com> wrote i
snip
. Why Christians are Hated -
Oh, go cry me a river, you big pansy
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
.
|
|
|
| User: "St. Jockofgrapes" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 05:45:07 PM |
|
|
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message news:5bc17tF2rbfacU1@mid.individual.net...
"Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_club@yahoo.com> wrote i
snip
. Why Christians are Hated -
Oh, go cry me a river, you big pansy
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
U1st, #1557, (chuckle) (-:
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 04:21:27 PM |
|
|
On May 20, 4:36 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <use...@heathens.org.uk> wrote in messagenews:1179525281.151071.188990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
That's a red herring.
. Why Christians are Hated -
(The Hatred is Supernatural, and they aren't even aware how it's taken them over.)
John 15:18-20 (NASB95)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18 "aIf the world hates you, 1you know that it has hated Me
before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but aI chose you out of the world,
bbecause of this the world hates you.
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'aA slave is not
greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, bthey will also
persecute you; if they ckept My word, they will keep yours also.
[1]
If the world loves you, watch out-you're in hot water. Paul told his
protigi, Timothy, that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). That's a fact. If you are living godly,
you're not going to make it into the Who's Who of the world's system. It
just won't work that way.
[2]
15:18, 19 Since Satan is the one who dominates the evil world system in
rebellion against God (14:30), the result is that the world hates not only
Jesus, but those who follow Him (2 Tim. 3:12). Hatred toward Jesus means
also hatred toward the Father who sent Him (v. 23).
15:20 servant...master. That axiom, spoken also in 13:16, reflects the
obvious truth that led Jesus to inform His disciples. They could expect to
be treated like He was treated because those who hated Him don't know God
(v. 21) and would hate them also; and conversely, those who listened with
faith to Him, would hear them also.
[3]
The reason the world will hate you is because you're light (1
Thessalonians 5:5). And when light shines, people in the dark get real
uneasy. Like bugs under a rock, they start scrambling and fleeing. "If I
hadn't come," said Jesus, "men could continue on in their sin, and no one
would feel uncomfortable. But because I came, because of how I lived,
because of where I stand, men have no cloak for their sin. Consequently,
they feel exposed and foolish in their iniquity. And will hate you as a
result."[4]
Jesus Predicts the World's Hatred (15:18-16:4)
15:18, 19 The disciples were not to be surprised or disheartened if the
world hates them. (The if does not express any doubt that this would
happen; it was certain.) The world hated the Lord, and it will hate all
who resemble Him.
Men of the world love those who live as they do-those who use vile
language and indulge in the lusts of the flesh, or people who are cultured
but live only for themselves. Christians condemn them by their holy lives,
therefore the world hates them.
15:20 Here servant literally means "slave." A disciple should not expect
any better treatment from the world than his Master received. He will be
persecuted just as Christ was. His word will be refused just as the
Savior's was.
[5]
Notice what will happen if you are a child of God. The world will hate
you. I believe that a Christian's popularity can be an indication of how
he is representing Christ to the world. I do not believe a Christian can
be popular in the world. No Christian has any right to be more popular
than Jesus was. Beware of a compromising position in order to be popular.
The world will not love a real child of God. The world will love you if
you are of the world. You don't have to act oddly or be super-pious. The
world will hate you if you are a child of God. This is difficult,
especially for young people who want so much to be popular. Let's tell our
young people what the Lord says. They are not going to be popular with the
world if they are the children of God.
Unfortunately, there are folk in the church today who are not honestly
born again, and they will also hate you if you are a child of God. They
will hate the preacher if he is true to the Word of God. May I say again,
beware of the Christian who is popular with the world.
[6]
15:18-19 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it
hated you." NRSV Jesus was hated from the very beginning (when Jesus was a
young child, King Herod sought him out to kill him-Matthew 2:13-16). He
was hated at the end when the people rejected him as the Savior and called
for his crucifixion. The same world would surely hate those who proclaim
allegiance to the crucified Lord.
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you
do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That
is why the world hates you." NIV Jesus wants believers to be distinctive;
he sets us apart from the world. His choosing and setting us apart makes
us holy and helps us grow. Our very separation from the world arouses the
world's animosity. The world would prefer that we were like them; since we
are not, they hate us (see 1 Peter 4:3-4).
. WELCOMED REJECTION
Jesus taught us to expect rejection. Rejection may be difficult to take,
but if we never experience it, we may be hiding our Christianity from
others. If we profess Christ and are warmly embraced by the world, we
should reexamine our commitment and life-style. If we remain silent about
our faith in order to gain acceptance by the world, we have made a poor
trade. In fact, we are being dishonest in two ways: We deny the faith we
claim as central in our lives, and we deceive those whose acceptance we
want by not revealing our Christian faith. The Scriptures warn us,
"Friendship with the world is hatred toward God" (James 4:4 niv; see also
2 Timothy 3:10-12; 1 John 2:15-17; 3:1; 4:5-6).
[7]
15:18 Jesus wanted to prepare His disciples for the opposition that they
would face after His departure. To do this He announced first that they
would encounter opposition from the world (cf. 1 John 3:13). Here the
world (Gr. kosmos) refers to the mass of unbelievers. The conditional
sentence in the Greek text assumes the reality of what Jesus stated for
the argument's sake. The world would hate them. A person cannot be an
intimate friend of Jesus (i.e., and abiding believer) without drawing
hatred from His enemies.
The world hates Jesus because He testified that its deeds are evil (7:7).
His abiding disciples draw hatred from the world because they associate
themselves with Him and His teachings and because they seek to advance His
mission. Remembering the world's hatred for the Master makes bearing that
hatred easier for His disciple.
15:19 Believers are aliens in the world because Jesus has called us out of
it to fulfill His plans and purposes. The world does not hate us because
we are superior but because we are servants of the Lord whom it has
rejected.
[8]
John 7:7 (NASB95)
7 "aThe world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify
of it, that bits deeds are evil.
[9]
. Why are Christians Hated?
Shove your persecution complex up your *****, moron. In the country I
live in, you can't swing a dead animal without hitting three of your
idiotic tax-free torture chambers (you probably call them "churches").
Your ilk control two out of the three branches of my government, and
you *still* howl at the moon should someone utter the truth behind
your neurotic mythology out loud.
Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps Christians *are* hated. Let's explore
the possible reasons why:
1.) Opposition to the betterment of human health. In Africa, there is
a disease spreading like wildfire through the population. But unlike
other epidemics, action is being taken by Christian authorities to
*increase* the spread of the disease. Why? Well, this particular
disease is spread by sexual contact-and that sends the self-hating
Christian morons into fits of apoplexy. Better that all these people
die then have to discuss something as natural as human sexuality.
2.) Indifference to human suffering. Because of the odd Christian
notion that a zygote should have the same rights as a fully developed
human, American scientists on the verge of finding treatments for some
of humanity's oldest enemies. New heart muscle. Restored mobility.
Restored memory. Hey, don't sweat it...someone in Europe or Asia will
do it. This is America, and you shouldn't recieve health care unless
you're rich enough to fly overseas for treatment anyway.
Elsewhere in the world, fine young Christians plant grain, tend
wounds, and build schools-as long as the starving, injured, and
ignorant say they love Jesus first. Missionaries are even worse than
spammers. Their religion is more important to them than human
suffering. Let'em go overseas *without* their stinking Bibles, and
perhaps the argument that they're "helping people" might have a leg to
stand on.
3.) Least, but certainly not last, you people will NOT shut the *****
up. All your braying about how put-upon you are by the millions of us
saying "no, thank you." to your ridiculous mythology. A simple no
isn't enough for you people. You keep on and on and on at me, and then
call *me* the rude one when I finally lose my patience. You then claim
that your "freedom of religion" (an oxymoron if there ever were one)
is curtailed because you're not being allowed to shove your ***** down
my throat against my will.
Buy a clue, moron. Normal people wouldn't give a ***** about
Christianity if it would simply mind its own buisiness.
John 15:18-15:27
One of the things that confuses many Christians is (snip)
reality.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Somebody Who Loves You" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 04:39:35 PM |
|
|
<panamfloyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1179696087.156726.27890@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On May 20, 4:36 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <use...@heathens.org.uk> wrote in
messagenews:1179525281.151071.188990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
That's a red herring.
. Why Christians are Hated -
(The Hatred is Supernatural, and they aren't even aware how it's taken them over.)
John 15:18-20 (NASB95)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18 "aIf the world hates you, 1you know that it has hated Me
before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but aI chose you out of the world,
bbecause of this the world hates you.
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'aA slave is not
greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, bthey will also
persecute you; if they ckept My word, they will keep yours also.
[1]
If the world loves you, watch out-you're in hot water. Paul told his
protigi, Timothy, that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). That's a fact. If you are living godly,
you're not going to make it into the Who's Who of the world's system. It
just won't work that way.
[2]
15:18, 19 Since Satan is the one who dominates the evil world system in
rebellion against God (14:30), the result is that the world hates not only
Jesus, but those who follow Him (2 Tim. 3:12). Hatred toward Jesus means
also hatred toward the Father who sent Him (v. 23).
15:20 servant...master. That axiom, spoken also in 13:16, reflects the
obvious truth that led Jesus to inform His disciples. They could expect to
be treated like He was treated because those who hated Him don't know God
(v. 21) and would hate them also; and conversely, those who listened with
faith to Him, would hear them also.
[3]
The reason the world will hate you is because you're light (1
Thessalonians 5:5). And when light shines, people in the dark get real
uneasy. Like bugs under a rock, they start scrambling and fleeing. "If I
hadn't come," said Jesus, "men could continue on in their sin, and no one
would feel uncomfortable. But because I came, because of how I lived,
because of where I stand, men have no cloak for their sin. Consequently,
they feel exposed and foolish in their iniquity. And will hate you as a
result."[4]
Jesus Predicts the World's Hatred (15:18-16:4)
15:18, 19 The disciples were not to be surprised or disheartened if the
world hates them. (The if does not express any doubt that this would
happen; it was certain.) The world hated the Lord, and it will hate all
who resemble Him.
Men of the world love those who live as they do-those who use vile
language and indulge in the lusts of the flesh, or people who are cultured
but live only for themselves. Christians condemn them by their holy lives,
therefore the world hates them.
15:20 Here servant literally means "slave." A disciple should not expect
any better treatment from the world than his Master received. He will be
persecuted just as Christ was. His word will be refused just as the
Savior's was.
[5]
Notice what will happen if you are a child of God. The world will hate
you. I believe that a Christian's popularity can be an indication of how
he is representing Christ to the world. I do not believe a Christian can
be popular in the world. No Christian has any right to be more popular
than Jesus was. Beware of a compromising position in order to be popular.
The world will not love a real child of God. The world will love you if
you are of the world. You don't have to act oddly or be super-pious. The
world will hate you if you are a child of God. This is difficult,
especially for young people who want so much to be popular. Let's tell our
young people what the Lord says. They are not going to be popular with the
world if they are the children of God.
Unfortunately, there are folk in the church today who are not honestly
born again, and they will also hate you if you are a child of God. They
will hate the preacher if he is true to the Word of God. May I say again,
beware of the Christian who is popular with the world.
[6]
15:18-19 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it
hated you." NRSV Jesus was hated from the very beginning (when Jesus was a
young child, King Herod sought him out to kill him-Matthew 2:13-16). He
was hated at the end when the people rejected him as the Savior and called
for his crucifixion. The same world would surely hate those who proclaim
allegiance to the crucified Lord.
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you
do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That
is why the world hates you." NIV Jesus wants believers to be distinctive;
he sets us apart from the world. His choosing and setting us apart makes
us holy and helps us grow. Our very separation from the world arouses the
world's animosity. The world would prefer that we were like them; since we
are not, they hate us (see 1 Peter 4:3-4).
. WELCOMED REJECTION
Jesus taught us to expect rejection. Rejection may be difficult to take,
but if we never experience it, we may be hiding our Christianity from
others. If we profess Christ and are warmly embraced by the world, we
should reexamine our commitment and life-style. If we remain silent about
our faith in order to gain acceptance by the world, we have made a poor
trade. In fact, we are being dishonest in two ways: We deny the faith we
claim as central in our lives, and we deceive those whose acceptance we
want by not revealing our Christian faith. The Scriptures warn us,
"Friendship with the world is hatred toward God" (James 4:4 niv; see also
2 Timothy 3:10-12; 1 John 2:15-17; 3:1; 4:5-6).
[7]
15:18 Jesus wanted to prepare His disciples for the opposition that they
would face after His departure. To do this He announced first that they
would encounter opposition from the world (cf. 1 John 3:13). Here the
world (Gr. kosmos) refers to the mass of unbelievers. The conditional
sentence in the Greek text assumes the reality of what Jesus stated for
the argument's sake. The world would hate them. A person cannot be an
intimate friend of Jesus (i.e., and abiding believer) without drawing
hatred from His enemies.
The world hates Jesus because He testified that its deeds are evil (7:7).
His abiding disciples draw hatred from the world because they associate
themselves with Him and His teachings and because they seek to advance His
mission. Remembering the world's hatred for the Master makes bearing that
hatred easier for His disciple.
15:19 Believers are aliens in the world because Jesus has called us out of
it to fulfill His plans and purposes. The world does not hate us because
we are superior but because we are servants of the Lord whom it has
rejected.
[8]
John 7:7 (NASB95)
7 "aThe world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify
of it, that bits deeds are evil.
[9]
. Why are Christians Hated?
Shove your persecution complex up your *****, moron. In the country I
live in, you can't swing a dead animal without hitting three of your
idiotic tax-free torture chambers (you probably call them "churches").
Your ilk control two out of the three branches of my government, and
you *still* howl at the moon should someone utter the truth behind
your neurotic mythology out loud.
Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps Christians *are* hated. Let's explore
the possible reasons why:
1.) Opposition to the betterment of human health. In Africa, there is
a disease spreading like wildfire through the population. But unlike
other epidemics, action is being taken by Christian authorities to
*increase* the spread of the disease.
NOT TRUE!
The Excellence of Love - S-a-c-r-i-f-i-c-e
(1 Corinthians 13 NASB)
. The Excellence of Love
1 If I speak with the ?a?tongues of men and of ?b?angels, but do not
have love, I have become a noisy gong or a ?c?clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of ?a?prophecy, and know all ?b?mysteries and
all ?c?knowledge; and if I have ?d?all faith, so as to ?e?remove
mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I ?a?give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I
?b?surrender my body ?1?to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me
nothing.
4 Love ?a?is patient, love is kind and ?b?is not jealous; love does
not brag and is not ?c?arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it ?a?does not seek its own, is not
provoked, ?b?does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 ?a?does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but ?b?rejoices with the
truth;
7 ?1??a?bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things,
endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of ?1??a?prophecy, they
will be done away; if there are ?b?tongues, they will cease; if there is
knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we ?a?know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a
child, reason like a child; when I ?1?became a man, I did away with
childish things.
12 For now we ?a?see in a mirror ?1?dimly, but then ?b?face to face;
now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also ?c?have
been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the ?1?greatest
of these is ?a?love.
[1]
I love my wife. I love my kids. I love Big Macs. I love walks in the park
on summer evenings. We use the word "love" so freely that we diminish its
meaning. The Greeks circumvented this problem by using four words for
love..
.. Storgi means affection. Storgi is the kind of love one feels toward
his cat or dog.
.. Eros refers to sexual, physical love.
.. Phileo, from which we get the name "Philadelphia," speaks of
brotherly love. Phileo says, "If you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you."
It wasn't until the New Testament apostles introduced the concept of
unconditional love that the Greeks added agape to their vocabulary. Agape
is a love that gives simply for the sake of giving, never expecting
anything in return. People who don't know the Lord can experience all of
the other kinds of love. But for them, agape is impossible because it is
found only in God. Agape is the love of which Paul speaks when he says, "If
I don't have love, I'm just making noise even if I speak in tongues
fluently."
In the year 1647, during England's Civil War, a deserter in Cromwell's army
was captured and brought before him.
"When the curfew bell sounds tonight, you shall be executed," said the
general.
But that night, the curfew bell was not heard. Upon investigation, it was
discovered that, receiving news of her fianci's sentence, his betrothed
made her way quickly to the camp and hid in the bell tower. As curfew
neared, she positioned herself within the bell in such a way that when the
rope was pulled, the clapper hit her body rather than the inside of the
bell. Seeing the bruised and battered lady standing before him, Cromwell
was so deeply touched by her love that the soldier's life was spared.
Jesus Christ climbed not a bell tower, but the hill of Calvary in order
that you and I would be spared the execution we so rightfully deserve.
Whether the word is charity, love, or agape, the love Jesus showed us, the
love we are to extend to one another is
spelled one way: S-a-c-r-i-f-i-c-e.
[2]
A Topical Study of 1 Corinthians 13:4
The description of agape seen in 1 Corinthians 13 is glorious indeed. But,
to the believer, this passage can be very frustrating as well. You see, in
1 Corinthians 13, we read that love is longsuffering and kind, that it
neither envies nor seeks its own, that it bears all things, believes all
things, hopes all things, and endures all things, that it never fails.
"What a beautiful description of love," we say with one breath, but, "too
bad I'm so far from it," with the next.
Today, however, I want you to look at the chapter before us from a slightly
different perspective. The apostle John tells us that God is love-literally
that God is agape (1 John 4:16). Paul tells us that this Fountainhead of
agape, the Essence of love, God Himself demonstrated His love for us in
that while we were yet sinners He died in place of us (Romans 5:8). Seen in
this light, 1 Corinthians 13 becomes not only an exhortation to love
others, but, more importantly, a description of God's love for us..
Love suffereth long. 1 Corinthians 13:4 (a)
God suffers long. He suffers long toward me. Think of Jesus on the Cross.
As men cursed Him and spit on Him, what did He do? He suffered long. He
said, "Father forgive them. They don't know what they're doing" (see Luke
23:34). My tendency is to think I've blown it so badly that surely God has
given up on me. But the Cross shows me otherwise.
..and is kind. 1 Corinthians 13:4 (b)
If you think God is vengeful, angry, and mean-spirited, you have the wrong
image of God. So kind, so gentle, so big-hearted is He that He does more
for us than we could ever ask or even think (Ephesians 3:20).
The psalmist tells us that the Lord will withhold no good thing from those
that love Him (Psalm 84:11). Therefore, if I'm not getting something for
which I'm asking, it's because what I'm asking for would not be good for
me. If the timing isn't right, if the request is wrong, He'll withhold it
not because He's mean, but because He is love.
..love envieth not. 1 Corinthians 13:4 (c)
Bound together in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit are completely
self-sufficient and totally happy. God says, "I want to walk with you; I'll
never give up on you; I avail Myself to you-but I'm not dependent on you."
God's love is mature.
..love vaunteth not itself. 1 Corinthians 13:4 (d)
God doesn't have to hype Himself. What He says, He does. Who He claims to
be, He really is.
..is not puffed up. 1 Corinthians 13:4 (e)
God doesn't say, "I'm God and you're dust." No, He came to dwell among us,
to walk with us, to die for us. And He's the same today. He's always
available to me, always ready to hear my prayers, always ready to share
with me truths from His Word.
When I read 1 Corinthians 13 in this light, what does it do?
The apostle John tells us exactly what it does when he literally says, "We
love because He first loved us" (see 1 John 4:19). The person who
understands that 1 Corinthians 13 is most fundamentally talking about the
nature and character of God's love toward him personally will be one who
inevitably overflows with love to the people around him.
We looked at only one verse in Paul's perfectly placed pomegranate of love.
As you make your way through the rest of the chapter, you will see God's
love for you in every verse. Marvel at it. Bask in it. Then let it overflow
from your life to everyone around you.
[3]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
a 1 Cor 12:10 b 2 Cor 12:4; Rev 14:2 c Ps 150:5 a Matt 7:22; Acts 13:1; 1
Cor 11:4; 13:8; 14:1, 39 b 1 Cor 14:2; 15:51 c Rom 15:14 d 1 Cor 12:9 e
Matt 17:20; 21:21; Mark 11:23 a Matt 6:2 b Dan 3:28 1 Early mss read that I
may boast a Prov 10:12; 17:9; 1 Thess 5:14; 1 Pet 4:8 b Acts 7:9 c 1 Cor
4:6 a 1 Cor 10:24; Phil 2:21 b 2 Cor 5:19 a 2 Thess 2:12 b 2 John 4; 3 John
3f 1 Or covers a 1 Cor 9:12 1 Lit prophecies a 1 Cor 13:2 b 1 Cor 13:1 a 1
Cor 8:2; 13:12 1 Lit have become...have done away with a 2 Cor 5:7; Phil
3:12; James 1:23 1 Lit in a riddle b Gen 32:30; Num 12:8; 1 John 3:2 c 1
Cor 8:3 1 Lit greater a Gal 5:6
[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 13:1). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.
[2]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1074).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1078).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 05:26:03 PM |
|
|
On May 20, 5:39 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<panamfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179696087.156726.27890@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On May 20, 4:36 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <use...@heathens.org.uk> wrote in
messagenews:1179525281.151071.188990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
That's a red herring.
. Why Christians are Hated -
(The Hatred is Supernatural, and they aren't even aware how it's taken them over.)
John 15:18-20 (NASB95)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18 "aIf the world hates you, 1you know that it has hated Me
before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but aI chose you out of the world,
bbecause of this the world hates you.
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'aA slave is not
greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, bthey will also
persecute you; if they ckept My word, they will keep yours also.
[1]
If the world loves you, watch out-you're in hot water. Paul told his
protigi, Timothy, that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). That's a fact. If you are living godly,
you're not going to make it into the Who's Who of the world's system. It
just won't work that way.
[2]
15:18, 19 Since Satan is the one who dominates the evil world system in
rebellion against God (14:30), the result is that the world hates not only
Jesus, but those who follow Him (2 Tim. 3:12). Hatred toward Jesus means
also hatred toward the Father who sent Him (v. 23).
15:20 servant...master. That axiom, spoken also in 13:16, reflects the
obvious truth that led Jesus to inform His disciples. They could expect to
be treated like He was treated because those who hated Him don't know God
(v. 21) and would hate them also; and conversely, those who listened with
faith to Him, would hear them also.
[3]
The reason the world will hate you is because you're light (1
Thessalonians 5:5). And when light shines, people in the dark get real
uneasy. Like bugs under a rock, they start scrambling and fleeing. "If I
hadn't come," said Jesus, "men could continue on in their sin, and no one
would feel uncomfortable. But because I came, because of how I lived,
because of where I stand, men have no cloak for their sin. Consequently,
they feel exposed and foolish in their iniquity. And will hate you as a
result."[4]
Jesus Predicts the World's Hatred (15:18-16:4)
15:18, 19 The disciples were not to be surprised or disheartened if the
world hates them. (The if does not express any doubt that this would
happen; it was certain.) The world hated the Lord, and it will hate all
who resemble Him.
Men of the world love those who live as they do-those who use vile
language and indulge in the lusts of the flesh, or people who are cultured
but live only for themselves. Christians condemn them by their holy lives,
therefore the world hates them.
15:20 Here servant literally means "slave." A disciple should not expect
any better treatment from the world than his Master received. He will be
persecuted just as Christ was. His word will be refused just as the
Savior's was.
[5]
Notice what will happen if you are a child of God. The world will hate
you. I believe that a Christian's popularity can be an indication of how
he is representing Christ to the world. I do not believe a Christian can
be popular in the world. No Christian has any right to be more popular
than Jesus was. Beware of a compromising position in order to be popular.
The world will not love a real child of God. The world will love you if
you are of the world. You don't have to act oddly or be super-pious. The
world will hate you if you are a child of God. This is difficult,
especially for young people who want so much to be popular. Let's tell our
young people what the Lord says. They are not going to be popular with the
world if they are the children of God.
Unfortunately, there are folk in the church today who are not honestly
born again, and they will also hate you if you are a child of God. They
will hate the preacher if he is true to the Word of God. May I say again,
beware of the Christian who is popular with the world.
[6]
15:18-19 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it
hated you." NRSV Jesus was hated from the very beginning (when Jesus was a
young child, King Herod sought him out to kill him-Matthew 2:13-16). He
was hated at the end when the people rejected him as the Savior and called
for his crucifixion. The same world would surely hate those who proclaim
allegiance to the crucified Lord.
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you
do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That
is why the world hates you." NIV Jesus wants believers to be distinctive;
he sets us apart from the world. His choosing and setting us apart makes
us holy and helps us grow. Our very separation from the world arouses the
world's animosity. The world would prefer that we were like them; since we
are not, they hate us (see 1 Peter 4:3-4).
. WELCOMED REJECTION
Jesus taught us to expect rejection. Rejection may be difficult to take,
but if we never experience it, we may be hiding our Christianity from
others. If we profess Christ and are warmly embraced by the world, we
should reexamine our commitment and life-style. If we remain silent about
our faith in order to gain acceptance by the world, we have made a poor
trade. In fact, we are being dishonest in two ways: We deny the faith we
claim as central in our lives, and we deceive those whose acceptance we
want by not revealing our Christian faith. The Scriptures warn us,
"Friendship with the world is hatred toward God" (James 4:4 niv; see also
2 Timothy 3:10-12; 1 John 2:15-17; 3:1; 4:5-6).
[7]
15:18 Jesus wanted to prepare His disciples for the opposition that they
would face after His departure. To do this He announced first that they
would encounter opposition from the world (cf. 1 John 3:13). Here the
world (Gr. kosmos) refers to the mass of unbelievers. The conditional
sentence in the Greek text assumes the reality of what Jesus stated for
the argument's sake. The world would hate them. A person cannot be an
intimate friend of Jesus (i.e., and abiding believer) without drawing
hatred from His enemies.
The world hates Jesus because He testified that its deeds are evil (7:7).
His abiding disciples draw hatred from the world because they associate
themselves with Him and His teachings and because they seek to advance His
mission. Remembering the world's hatred for the Master makes bearing that
hatred easier for His disciple.
15:19 Believers are aliens in the world because Jesus has called us out of
it to fulfill His plans and purposes. The world does not hate us because
we are superior but because we are servants of the Lord whom it has
rejected.
[8]
John 7:7 (NASB95)
7 "aThe world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify
of it, that bits deeds are evil.
[9]
. Why are Christians Hated?
Shove your persecution complex up your *****, moron. In the country I
live in, you can't swing a dead animal without hitting three of your
idiotic tax-free torture chambers (you probably call them "churches").
Your ilk control two out of the three branches of my government, and
you *still* howl at the moon should someone utter the truth behind
your neurotic mythology out loud.
Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps Christians *are* hated. Let's explore
the possible reasons why:
1.) Opposition to the betterment of human health. In Africa, there is
a disease spreading like wildfire through the population. But unlike
other epidemics, action is being taken by Christian authorities to
*increase* the spread of the disease.
NOT TRUE!
How on earth would the likes of *you* know? You and your kind believe,
in the face of a vast mountain of evidence to the contrary, that a
creature powerful enough to have created all the matter and energy in
the universe had to "sacrifice" itself...to itself...to save its own
creation...from its *own* wrath! Such a creature does not deserve
worship-it is in dire need of therapy.
As far as your inane Bible stories go, please recall that the only
thing the bible "proves" is that ancient priests were just as scared
of a hard day's work as modern ones are. Far from being a "divine"
work, it is the product of fear. The fears of ancient superstitious
men. One should be ashamed to use it as anything other than an aid to
study those sad, tortured times.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/...
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-New-Testament-Christian/dp/0060655186...
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Gospel-Book-Christian-Origins/dp/006065375...
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
And of course, you've just validated point three of my previous post.
When given an explanation he does not care for, the Christian replies
with another regurgitation of their pathetic old mythology. You, sir,
have proven me correct in your reply. You idiots are utterly incapable
of being quiet.
-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA1
.
|
|
|
| User: "St. Jockofgrapes" |
|
| Title: Re: Why Christianity can never be defeated |
20 May 2007 05:40:37 PM |
|
|
<panamfloyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1179699963.679163.58190@y2g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On May 20, 5:39 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
<panamfl...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1179696087.156726.27890@b40g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On May 20, 4:36 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <swly_fan_c...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" <use...@heathens.org.uk> wrote in
messagenews:1179525281.151071.188990@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because every time defeat is near, Christianity summons its vast army
of straw men, and the Creator of the universe. (-:
That's a red herring.
. Why Christians are Hated -
(The Hatred is Supernatural, and they aren't even aware how it's taken them over.)
John 15:18-20 (NASB95)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18 "aIf the world hates you, 1you know that it has hated Me
before it hated you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but
because you are not of the world, but aI chose you out of the world,
bbecause of this the world hates you.
20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'aA slave is not
greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, bthey will also
persecute you; if they ckept My word, they will keep yours also.
[1]
If the world loves you, watch out-you're in hot water. Paul told his
protigi, Timothy, that all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). That's a fact. If you are living godly,
you're not going to make it into the Who's Who of the world's system. It
just won't work that way.
[2]
15:18, 19 Since Satan is the one who dominates the evil world system in
rebellion against God (14:30), the result is that the world hates not only
Jesus, but those who follow Him (2 Tim. 3:12). Hatred toward Jesus means
also hatred toward the Father who sent Him (v. 23).
15:20 servant...master. That axiom, spoken also in 13:16, reflects the
obvious truth that led Jesus to inform His disciples. They could expect to
be treated like He was treated because those who hated Him don't know God
(v. 21) and would hate them also; and conversely, those who listened with
faith to Him, would hear them also.
[3]
The reason the world will hate you is because you're light (1
Thessalonians 5:5). And when light shines, people in the dark get real
uneasy. Like bugs under a rock, they start scrambling and fleeing. "If I
hadn't come," said Jesus, "men could continue on in their sin, and no one
would feel uncomfortable. But because I came, because of how I lived,
because of where I stand, men have no cloak for their sin. Consequently,
they feel exposed and foolish in their iniquity. And will hate you as a
result."[4]
Jesus Predicts the World's Hatred (15:18-16:4)
15:18, 19 The disciples were not to be surprised or disheartened if the
world hates them. (The if does not express any doubt that this would
happen; it was certain.) The world hated the Lord, and it will hate all
who resemble Him.
Men of the world love those who live as they do-those who use vile
language and indulge in the lusts of the flesh, or people who are cultured
but live only for themselves. Christians condemn them by their holy lives,
therefore the world hates them.
15:20 Here servant literally means "slave." A disciple should not expect
any better treatment from the world than his Master received. He will be
persecuted just as Christ was. His word will be refused just as the
Savior's was.
[5]
Notice what will happen if you are a child of God. The world will hate
you. I believe that a Christian's popularity can be an indication of how
he is representing Christ to the world. I do not believe a Christian can
be popular in the world. No Christian has any right to be more popular
than Jesus was. Beware of a compromising position in order to be popular.
The world will not love a real child of God. The world will love you if
you are of the world. You don't have to act oddly or be super-pious. The
world will hate you if you are a child of God. This is difficult,
especially for young people who want so much to be popular. Let's tell our
young people what the Lord says. They are not going to be popular with the
world if they are the children of God.
Unfortunately, there are folk in the church today who are not honestly
born again, and they will also hate you if you are a child of God. They
will hate the preacher if he is true to the Word of God. May I say again,
beware of the Christian who is popular with the world.
[6]
15:18-19 "If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me before it
hated you." NRSV Jesus was hated from the very beginning (when Jesus was a
young child, King Herod sought him out to kill him-Matthew 2:13-16). He
was hated at the end when the people rejected him as the Savior and called
for his crucifixion. The same world would surely hate those who proclaim
allegiance to the crucified Lord.
"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you
do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That
is why the world hates you." NIV Jesus wants believers to be distinctive;
he sets us apart from the world. His choosing and setting us apart makes
us holy and helps us grow. Our very separation from the world arouses the
world's animosity. The world would prefer that we were like them; since we
are not, they hate us (see 1 Peter 4:3-4).
. WELCOMED REJECTION
Jesus taught us to expect rejection. Rejection may be difficult to take,
but if we never experience it, we may be hiding our Christianity from
others. If we profess Christ and are warmly embraced by the world, we
should reexamine our commitment and life-style. If we remain silent about
our faith in order to gain acceptance by the world, we have made a poor
trade. In fact, we are being dishonest in two ways: We deny the faith we
claim as central in our lives, and we deceive those whose acceptance we
want by not revealing our Christian faith. The Scriptures warn us,
"Friendship with the world is hatred toward God" (James 4:4 niv; see also
2 Timothy 3:10-12; 1 John 2:15-17; 3:1; 4:5-6).
[7]
15:18 Jesus wanted to prepare His disciples for the opposition that they
would face after His departure. To do this He announced first that they
would encounter opposition from the world (cf. 1 John 3:13). Here the
world (Gr. kosmos) refers to the mass of unbelievers. The conditional
sentence in the Greek text assumes the reality of what Jesus stated for
the argument's sake. The world would hate them. A person cannot be an
intimate friend of Jesus (i.e., and abiding believer) without drawing
hatred from His enemies.
The world hates Jesus because He testified that its deeds are evil (7:7).
His abiding disciples draw hatred from the world because they associate
themselves with Him and His teachings and because they seek to advance His
mission. Remembering the world's hatred for the Master makes bearing that
hatred easier for His disciple.
15:19 Believers are aliens in the world because Jesus has called us out of
it to fulfill His plans and purposes. The world does not hate us because
we are superior but because we are servants of the Lord whom it has
rejected.
[8]
John 7:7 (NASB95)
7 "aThe world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify
of it, that bits deeds are evil.
[9]
. Why are Christians Hated?
Shove your persecution complex up your *****, moron. In the country I
| | | | | | | | |
